Political Roundtable Part XV

[montestewart]

Continued from here

[Wizardspride]

Read on Twitter

[UcanUwill]

I don't usually watch Seth Meyers, and I am sick of Trump centric news, but man is that guy good, hitting Trump with his gloves off.

[Zonkerbl]

Nazis suck!

[DCZards]

Well... I'm glad you are worried about this. That is, I think some people ought to worry about it, ought to be thinking about strategy on the basis of a scenario of this kind.

At the same time, there are so many many differences between the situations in Germany & Italy back then & the current situation that I'm not going to be the one doing that worrying.

Doesn't mean I don't worry about Donald Trump. But I'd also say that our institutions have shown themselves powerfully resistant to him as an individual.

Agree. I'm not worried about the US letting an extremist along the lines of a Hitler or Mussolini rise to power. We are far too diverse both politically and racially to let that happen. Hopefully, #45 will be as bad as it gets. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't be vigilant and speak out forcefully and consistently against those who would turn back the clock and "Make America Racist and Bigoted Again."

As to neo-Nazis coming to power in this country, right now I can't see the pathway. Can they put a single person in the House of Representatives, for example? I mean that as a serious question.

Are you certain that they are not neo-Nazis or neo-Nazi symphathizers already serving in the House of Reps? I'm not.

[UcanUwill]

People like to believe that world is progressive and history can not be repeated, but just look at some governors of these United States. Rick Perry was governor for years. Look at things in Russia, they want to ban gay people from driving cars. World is just as prejudice and hatefilled as it ever was.

[dobrojim]

did a follow up to the story on the Durham crowd trying to turn themselves in.
law enforcement wasn't buying it. The 3-4 people actively involved in pulling statue over and caught on
video have turned themselves in and/or been arrested.

[Wizardspride]

Read on Twitter

[Zonkerbl]

did a follow up to the story on the Durham crowd trying to turn themselves in.
law enforcement wasn't buying it. The 3-4 people actively involved in pulling statue over and caught on
video have turned themselves in and/or been arrested.

Oh well. It's the thought that counts, I guess.

[cammac]

Every nation has people who don't meet what would be even remotely correct today.
Yes Jefferson and Washington were both slave owners and while looked at the microscope of today is completely socially unacceptably. But in the period that they lived it was a fact while however horrendous today. Hero's of the South are totally different they rebelled against the elected government of the time and frankly the emancipation of slaves wasn't the reason but the interpretation of the 10th Amendment. In his 4th debate with Steven Douglas Lincoln said"“I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races,” The Civil War contributed to 2% of the USA population either killed or maimed. The abolishing of slavery was more a political imperative rather that something that drove Lincoln.

"As regards the erection of such a monument as is contemplated," Lee wrote in December 1866 about another proposed Confederate monument, "my conviction is, that however grateful it would be to the feelings of the South, the attempt in the present condition of the Country, would have the effect of retarding, instead of accelerating its accomplishment; [and] of continuing, if not adding to, the difficulties under which the Southern people labor."

In Upper Canada (Ontario) slavery was abolished in 1790 by a farsighted British Governor Simcoe but had cravats in that current slaves would remain slaves and any offspring would remain slaves until they were 24. A interesting aside was the largest slave owner was Joseph Brant a Mohawk Chief with 50 slaves. I believe those slaves were other 1st Nations People from other tribes. The British Empire abolished slavery in 1832.

History is messy and most Hero's have warts but today's society needs to progress from past evils whether it is slavery, treatment of 1st Nations People, Head Taxes on Chinese (Canada) and internment of Japanese in WW2.

[payitforward]

Every nation has people who don't meet what would be even remotely correct today.
Yes Jefferson and Washington were both slave owners and while looked at the microscope of today is completely socially unacceptably. But in the period that they lived it was a fact while however horrendous today. Hero's of the South are totally different they rebelled against the elected government of the time and frankly the emancipation of slaves wasn't the reason but the interpretation of the 10th Amendment. In his 4th debate with Steven Douglas Lincoln said"“I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races,” The Civil War contributed to 2% of the USA population either killed or maimed. The abolishing of slavery was more a political imperative rather that something that drove Lincoln.

"As regards the erection of such a monument as is contemplated," Lee wrote in December 1866 about another proposed Confederate monument, "my conviction is, that however grateful it would be to the feelings of the South, the attempt in the present condition of the Country, would have the effect of retarding, instead of accelerating its accomplishment; [and] of continuing, if not adding to, the difficulties under which the Southern people labor."

In Upper Canada (Ontario) slavery was abolished in 1790 by a farsighted British Governor Simcoe but had cravats in that current slaves would remain slaves and any offspring would remain slaves until they were 24. A interesting aside was the largest slave owner was Joseph Brant a Mohawk Chief with 50 slaves. I believe those slaves were other 1st Nations People from other tribes. The British Empire abolished slavery in 1832.

History is messy and most Hero's have warts but today's society needs to progress from past evils whether it is slavery, treatment of 1st Nations People, Head Taxes on Chinese (Canada) and internment of Japanese in WW2.

Washington was the only slave-owning founding Father who freed his slaves in his will.

Many people thought slavery was horrendous back then as well. Moreover, "slavery" can take many forms; US slavery was the most extreme I know of.

The 10th amendment has nothing to do with slavery in any way; it's a bit of legalese. OTOH, the 13th amendment reads "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."

As to the relation of ending slavery to the Civil War itself, I recommend you read Lincoln's 2d Inaugural address. The war did not begin in an attempt to end slavery -- how could it when the war was started by the secession of the Southern states -- but in Southern resistance to Federal attempts to end its expansion. But, once begun, it was clear to Lincoln what was at stake:

'"Woe unto the world because of offenses; for it must needs be that offenses come, but woe to that man by whom the offense cometh." If we shall suppose that American slavery is one of those offenses which, in the providence of God, must needs come, but which, having continued through His appointed time, He now wills to remove, and that He gives to both North and South this terrible war as the woe due to those by whom the offense came, shall we discern therein any departure from those divine attributes which the believers in a living God always ascribe to Him? Fondly do we hope, fervently do we pray, that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away. Yet, if God wills that it continue until all the wealth piled by the bondsman's two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said "the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether."'

The 2d Inaugural, & in particular that passage, constitutes one of the most powerful political addresses of this country's history. The speech is inscribed on an inner wall of the Lincoln Memorial; it never fails to move me (& many others as well, I am sure) to tears, as it does now writing this post.

What Lincoln said in his debate with Douglas was in response to Douglas calling him an "abolitionist" & citing Lincoln's "house divided" speech (made when he accepted the candidacy for Senate -- the race he lost to Douglas). Here's the passage Douglas objected to:

"A house divided against itself cannot stand. I believe this government cannot endure, permanently, half slave and half free. I do not expect the Union to be dissolved — I do not expect the house to fall — but I do expect it will cease to be divided. It will become all one thing or all the other. Either the opponents of slavery will arrest the further spread of it, and place it where the public mind shall rest in the belief that it is in the course of ultimate extinction; or its advocates will push it forward, till it shall become lawful in all the States, old as well as new — North as well as South."

Pretty obvious where Lincoln stood on slavery....

[montestewart]

Read on Twitter

No wonder he flies off the handle so much

[verbal8]

Read on Twitter

If lying makes him angry, I hope he doesn't talk to himself.

[Zonkerbl]

This is what I'm talking about right here. Trump defends neo-Nazis, his approval ratings go UP:

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/president_trump_job_approval-6179.html

What is wrong with this country?

[montestewart]

This is what I'm talking about right here. Trump defends neo-Nazis, his approval ratings go UP:

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/president_trump_job_approval-6179.html

What is wrong with this country?

It reached it's lowest point right after he denounced all forms of racism, including neo-nazis, then it started to go back up after his Tuesday speech retracting that sentiment, thus regaining the confidence of that all important 1-2% single-issue neo-nazi voter bloc. Drain the swamp! With slaves!

[dobrojim]

multiple sources reporting Bannon to be fired

[JWizmentality]

Oh, the books that will be written about this cluster%$&%@.

[dobrojim]

don't buy books from crooks

(old post watergate bumper sticker)

[Zonkerbl]

What a fricking dumpster fire

[montestewart]

Oh, the books that will be written about this cluster%$&%@.

I'm working on a porn novel treatment right now