What do y'all think of The Ringer's top 20 list?

[Wiz99]

Bill Simmons and his buddy House just put out their top 20 NBA players list.

No John Wall. After you get over the knee jerk, "What?!?!" reaction, what do you really think?

List below. Important note: they made this list on the basis of "If you were picking guys for a pick up game right now, who would you take?" So, future growth, trade value, all that doesn't count. Just how are they doing right NOW? Injured guys can't play, so they're out. (They cheated a lil on that, because Simmons thinks Kawhi isn't really hurt and they threw in Paul at the end.)

Personally, I know Wall has the skills to be in the top 20 for sure. But with his craptastic up and down start to the season, I'd have a really hard time including Wall. Maybe at the end instead of Jokic and Paul.

1. LeBron James
2. Kevin Durant
3. James Harden
4. Giannis Antetokounmpo
5. Kawhi Leonard
6. Stephen Curry
7. Anthony Davis
8. Russell Westbrook
9. Kyrie Irving
10. Boogie Cousins
11. Draymond Green
12. Klay Thompson
13. Kristaps Porzingis
14. Ben Simmons
15. Blake Griffin
16. Joel Embiid
17. Paul George
18. Marc Gasol
19. Nikola Jokic
20. Chris Paul

[NatP4]

Beal belongs somewhere in there, Rudy Gobert also, but its not bad actually.

would probably drop Embiid and Paul George

[Wiz99]

Beal belongs somewhere in there, Rudy Gobert also

Gobert is injured, so they left him off.

You didn't say anything about Wall. Interesting.

Would you have Beal on before/higher than Wall?

[NatP4]

Beal belongs somewhere in there, Rudy Gobert also

Gobert is injured, so they left him off.

You didn't say anything about Wall. Interesting.

Would you have Beal on before/higher than Wall?

Beal and Porter are both better than Wall. Wall's defense is what made him an elite point guard, he doesn't play defense anymore. plenty of point guards that are better than him now.

[DCZards]

Beal belongs somewhere in there, Rudy Gobert also

Gobert is injured, so they left him off.

You didn't say anything about Wall. Interesting.

Would you have Beal on before/higher than Wall?

Beal and Porter are both better than Wall. Wall's defense is what made him an elite point guard, he doesn't play defense anymore. plenty of point guards that are better than him now.

"Plenty" of PGs are better than Wall? There may be 4 or 5 better PGs than Wall...but that's a few, not plenty.

[NatP4]

Gobert is injured, so they left him off.

You didn't say anything about Wall. Interesting.

Would you have Beal on before/higher than Wall?

Beal and Porter are both better than Wall. Wall's defense is what made him an elite point guard, he doesn't play defense anymore. plenty of point guards that are better than him now.

"Plenty" of PGs are better than Wall? There may be 4 or 5 better PGs than Wall...but that's a few, not plenty.

Harden, Irving, Paul, Westbrook, Curry, Lowry, Walker, Lillard, Ben Simmons? I'd Wall around 10th

[DCZards]

Beal and Porter are both better than Wall. Wall's defense is what made him an elite point guard, he doesn't play defense anymore. plenty of point guards that are better than him now.

"Plenty" of PGs are better than Wall? There may be 4 or 5 better PGs than Wall...but that's a few, not plenty.

Harden, Irving, Paul, Westbrook, Curry, Lowry, Walker, Lillard, Ben Simmons? I'd Wall around 10th

I'm putting Wall at #5...after Westbrook, Curry, Paul and, maybe, Irving, who plays even less D than JWall and is not the passer or playmaker that JW is, which is the essence of PG play.

I don't consider Harden a PG, especially now that he's teamed with Paul.

[NatP4]

"Plenty" of PGs are better than Wall? There may be 4 or 5 better PGs than Wall...but that's a few, not plenty.

Harden, Irving, Paul, Westbrook, Curry, Lowry, Walker, Lillard, Ben Simmons? I'd Wall around 10th

I'm putting Wall at #5...after Westbrook, Curry, Paul and, maybe, Irving, who plays even less D than JWall and is not the passer or playmaker that JW is, which is the essence of PG play.

I don't consider Harden a PG, especially now that he's teamed with Paul.

Lillard has been way better this year, Kyrie has actually been excellent defensively this season. I put Wall in a tier with Lowry and Kemba.

[DCZards]

Harden, Irving, Paul, Westbrook, Curry, Lowry, Walker, Lillard, Ben Simmons? I'd Wall around 10th

I'm putting Wall at #5...after Westbrook, Curry, Paul and, maybe, Irving, who plays even less D than JWall and is not the passer or playmaker that JW is, which is the essence of PG play.

I don't consider Harden a PG, especially now that he's teamed with Paul.

Lillard has been way better this year, Kyrie has actually been excellent defensively this season. I put Wall in a tier with Lowry and Kemba.

We're apparently talking apples and oranges. I'm talking about where these players rank based on their performances over the last few years and you're talking about this season, which amounts to a sample size of less than 20 games.

[nate33]

I think Klay Thompson has become overrated. He's certainly not the 12th best player in the league. I think Beal is better than him.

But I agree with Simmons that Wall is not a top 20 player.

[Kanyewest]

Thoughts from listening to the podcast

- The list criteria was NOT who has been playing for this month. but moreso who would you take now for just this season going forward in a championship run.
- Simmons mentioned Wall as early as #14 but Joe House, a Wizards fan stated that Beal has been better than Wall this season, and then Simmons decides to take Wall off at 14.
- When they were debating Beal at #20, Bill Simmons proceeds to ask Joe House, how would you rate Bradley Beal's defense. Joe House, again a Wizards fan, gave Bradley Beal a C+ rating as a defender which IMO is underrating his defense (I would give him an A- rating). Then Simmons decided to leave Bradley Beal out of the top 20.

[stilldropin20]

1. LeBron James
2. Kevin Durant
3. James Harden
4. Giannis Antetokounmpo
5. Kawhi Leonard
6. Stephen Curry
7. Anthony Davis
8. Russell Westbrook
9. Kyrie Irving
10. Boogie Cousins
11. Draymond Green
12. Klay Thompson
13. Kristaps Porzingis
14. Ben Simmons
15. Blake Griffin
16. Joel Embiid
17. Paul George
18. Marc Gasol
19. Nikola Jokic
20. Chris Paul

typical list with westbrook and harden too high. as always. both way over rated.

steph and kawhi too low. lebron too high.
klay too high
paul, blake, too high-neither top 20. cousins too high but might finally be at least worthy of regular season praise.

CJ mccollum, towns dipo, and beal deserve a look over or honorable mentions. blake and paul should be off the list.

[nate33]

1. LeBron James
2. Kevin Durant
3. James Harden
4. Giannis Antetokounmpo
5. Kawhi Leonard
6. Stephen Curry
7. Anthony Davis
8. Russell Westbrook
9. Kyrie Irving
10. Boogie Cousins
11. Draymond Green
12. Klay Thompson
13. Kristaps Porzingis
14. Ben Simmons
15. Blake Griffin
16. Joel Embiid
17. Paul George
18. Marc Gasol
19. Nikola Jokic
20. Chris Paul

typical list with westbrook and harden too high. as always. both way over rated.

steph and kawhi too low. lebron too high.
klay too high
paul, blake, too high-neither top 20. cousins too high but might finally be at least worthy of regular season praise.

Good post. I agree with almost all of it, except Harden. That guy is legit. He's the best first-option offensive player in the league. He is almost unguardable. He can single-handily make an offense great. The guy is averaging 31.5 points on a TS% of .627 while also dishing out 10 assists. And his team ranks second in offensive rating behind only Golden State.

I'd definitely put Beal, Lowry or Lillard at 20th ahead of Chris Paul. Also, while Simmons and Embiid are exciting young players, let's not overstate how good they are right now. Sure, they're two of the top prospects going forward, but if I need to win a game tomorrow, I don't take Simmons over Nikola Jokic or Marc Gasol just yet. If Philly really had two of the top 16 players in the league right now, they'd have more than 8 wins.

[Kanyewest]

1. LeBron James
2. Kevin Durant
3. James Harden
4. Giannis Antetokounmpo
5. Kawhi Leonard
6. Stephen Curry
7. Anthony Davis
8. Russell Westbrook
9. Kyrie Irving
10. Boogie Cousins
11. Draymond Green
12. Klay Thompson
13. Kristaps Porzingis
14. Ben Simmons
15. Blake Griffin
16. Joel Embiid
17. Paul George
18. Marc Gasol
19. Nikola Jokic
20. Chris Paul

typical list with westbrook and harden too high. as always. both way over rated.

steph and kawhi too low. lebron too high.
klay too high
paul, blake, too high-neither top 20. cousins too high but might finally be at least worthy of regular season praise.

Good post. I agree with almost all of it, except Harden. That guy is legit. He's the best first-option offensive player in the league. He is almost unguardable. He can single-handily make an offense great. The guy is averaging 31.5 points on a TS% of .627 while also dishing out 10 assists. And his team ranks second in offensive rating behind only Golden State.

I'd definitely put Beal, Lowry or Lillard at 20th ahead of Chris Paul. Also, while Simmons and Embiid are exciting young players, let's not overstate how good they are right now. Sure, they're two of the top prospects going forward, but if I need to win a game tomorrow, I don't take Simmons over Nikola Jokic or Marc Gasol just yet. If Philly really had two of the top 16 players in the league right now, they'd have more than 8 wins.

Just to play devil's advocate, Philadelphia has won 7 out of their past 10 games. Also, the Pelicans have two top ten players and only have 8 wins.

You are right though that there is a big room for debate since there is a lot of recency bias and not a huge sample size. Basically an incredible week by someone like Wall or Beal could vault them into the top 10 of a hypothetical list like this.

[I_Like_Dirt]

I think Klay Thompson has become overrated. He's certainly not the 12th best player in the league. I think Beal is better than him.

But I agree with Simmons that Wall is not a top 20 player.

I think Klay oscillates more than any other star between underrated and overrated. I think he tends to often get underrated because his numbers are held back a bit by virtue of accepting a particular role when surrounded by other stars. To be honest, I think that actually represents him well. Players like Melo who can't/won't take a backseat and tailor their role more are the guys who's talents exceed their impact. Klay clearly belongs in the Harden/Bosh/Love, etc. category of guys who were willing, at various stages of their career, to sacrifice their overall production for team success. On the flipside, you have people overvaluing team success relative the player, and wanting to be contrarian simply assuming things that aren't proven, either, and so he often winds up overrated as well.

That said, the question really becomes how good he actually is. I don't think he's James Harden good, but while I'm not convinced he's better than Beal, I'm not convinced he's worse, either. It's really tough to tell in situations like Klay is currently in, what he'd do with a less specialized opportunity. Beal compares relatively well with Ray Allen at this point, too, so that's a fairly decent outlook for Thompson, I think, who is actually a better shooter than Ray was. Beal isn't the shooter Klay is, but he's shown more to his game like Allen did, which Klay really hasn't, although it's tough to tell if that's just lack of opportunity or not. I feel he isn't quite as well rounded as Allen or Beal but his shot is ridiculous, so I have the two as a toss-up for the time being, but may change that if either guy shows more at any point, which either guy could, I think.

[CoachD]

Fixed

1. LeBron James
2. Steph Curry
3. Kevin Durant
4. James Harden
5. Giannis Antetokounmpo
6. Anthony Davis
7. Boogie Cousins
8. Karl Anthony Towns
9. Kyrie Irving
10.Demar Derozan
11. Draymond Green
12. Klay Thompson
13. John Wall
14. Russell Westbrook
15. Bradley Beal
16. Joel Embiid
17. Kyle Lowry
18. Paul George
19. Lamarcus Aldridge
20. Avery Bradley

[/quote]

If this is based on THIS SEASON, how do you rank Kawhi or Chris Paul? That's just dumb. Porzingis drops off my list because he's had too many consecutive BAD GAMES to be considered top 20. Same logic with Jokic. I LOVE Jokic but I haven't loved his motor and consistency THIS year.

It also PAINS me to say this, but Marc Gasol isn't playing like a top 20 player right now. Ben Simmons has been an impressive rookie... but #14 in the NBA today? No Sir.

Westbrook has also not been playing like the 8th best player. Is Bill Simmons even watching games?

How do you ignore what AB has done in Detroit and single handedly changed their culture?

Horford needs recognition. He's quietly having the best year of his career, and is actually rebounding.

With Kawhi out, Aldridge is looking like the man he was in Portland. I thought that man was gone ... gone like Orlando Dwight. Nice to see LA back.

[Coach76]

Ben Simmons and Joel Embiid shouldn't be there. All we have is 15 games of data on Simmons and 44 for Embiid. I could do without Draymond as well. Draymond is perfect for Golden State, but would be less valuable on another team. Leaving Wall off this list is a tough, but fair call given how he's played this season.

[DCZards]

1. LeBron James
2. Kevin Durant
3. James Harden
4. Giannis Antetokounmpo
5. Kawhi Leonard
6. Stephen Curry
7. Anthony Davis
8. Russell Westbrook
9. Kyrie Irving
10. Boogie Cousins
11. Draymond Green
12. Klay Thompson
13. Kristaps Porzingis
14. Ben Simmons
15. Blake Griffin
16. Joel Embiid
17. Paul George
18. Marc Gasol
19. Nikola Jokic
20. Chris Paul

typical list with westbrook and harden too high. as always. both way over rated.

steph and kawhi too low. lebron too high.
klay too high
paul, blake, too high-neither top 20. cousins too high but might finally be at least worthy of regular season praise.

CJ mccollum, towns dipo, and beal deserve a look over or honorable mentions. blake and paul should be off the list.

Man, how does Karl Anthony-Towns not make this list? Hadn't noticed he was left off until you mentioned it. He'd be in my 10, especially since this is a list of players you'd pick to make a championship run going forward.

[Kanyewest]

Man, how does Karl Anthony-Towns not make this list? Hadn't noticed he was left off until you mentioned it. He'd be in my 10, especially since this is a list of players you'd pick to make a championship run going forward.

It was for this year only. Not for the rest of their careers. Simmons cited Town's poor defense. That being said, I would have him somewhere at the level of Nikola Jokic.

[NatP4]

Lol someone ranked Wall over Westbrook in this thread.