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Political Roundtable Part XVIII

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Re: Political Roundtable Part XVIII 

Post#861 » by montestewart » Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:30 pm

TGW wrote:Hey Pointgod--watch this video, and then watch it again. Just one reason why your "vote Democrat down the line" rhetoric is silly and doesn't solve anything if you're a true believer of democratic principles:

Spoiler:

Can't watch videos at work, but don't need to. I've been voting Green Party nearly straight down the line since I moved to DC, with a few exceptions for some good non-Green Party candidates for At-Large city council seats. I've never heard an argument against my choice that didn't stink either of fanaticism, ignorance of how democracy and the electoral college work, or maybe some faux condescending verbal peacockery. Interestingly enough, all the arguments against DC having statehood, a voting representative, and two US Senators usually fall into one of those categories or a fourth category, an imperfect understanding of the Constitution (or no understanding at all).
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XVIII 

Post#862 » by gtn130 » Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:40 pm

Democrats being imperfect is pretty low hanging fruit when there's a fascist moron in power

People seem to conflate "vote Democrat so we can save our democracy from Trump" with "vote Democrat because the DNC is the absolute best and we LOVE Hillary" quite often
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XVIII 

Post#863 » by montestewart » Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:52 pm

gtn130 wrote:Democrats being imperfect is pretty low hanging fruit when there's a fascist moron in power

People seem to conflate "vote Democrat so we can save our democracy from Trump" with "vote Democrat because the DNC is the absolute best and we LOVE Hillary" quite often

Not me. Maybe you should identify who you're talking about when you say "people."
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XVIII 

Post#864 » by FAH1223 » Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:28 pm

gtn130 wrote:Democrats being imperfect is pretty low hanging fruit when there's a fascist moron in power

People seem to conflate "vote Democrat so we can save our democracy from Trump" with "vote Democrat because the DNC is the absolute best and we LOVE Hillary" quite often


It's not about being imperfect. It's about not using public power to improve people's lives. Democrats just don't believe in governing. They really don't think public servants are legitimate purveyors of power.

The Dems for some reason, perhaps ideology, just aren't bold or brave enough to take on the power structures that are squeezing people dry. Perhaps its cause most of the ones in office are puppets of those powers that be.

Being against Trump as your sole opposition tactic isn't enough. And paying lip service to some progressive issues ain't enough.

There's no madness and it's not a mystery. GOP prints money and hands it to their friends on Wall Street. Dems don't believe the gov't can print money because their friends on Wall Street tell them they can't.

The authority to print money is in the Constitution and it is reserved to Congress. You'll know Democrats are serious when they propose having Congress run monetary policy. The Federal Open Market Committee of the Federal Reserve should have members of Congress on it.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XVIII 

Post#865 » by gtn130 » Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:58 pm

montestewart wrote:
gtn130 wrote:Democrats being imperfect is pretty low hanging fruit when there's a fascist moron in power

People seem to conflate "vote Democrat so we can save our democracy from Trump" with "vote Democrat because the DNC is the absolute best and we LOVE Hillary" quite often

Not me. Maybe you should identify who you're talking about when you say "people."


Was referring to a post on the page before, stuff DC has said in the past, and other things I encounter from people in my life. Didn't think it was a scathing criticism
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XVIII 

Post#866 » by gtn130 » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:02 pm

FAH1223 wrote:
gtn130 wrote:Democrats being imperfect is pretty low hanging fruit when there's a fascist moron in power

People seem to conflate "vote Democrat so we can save our democracy from Trump" with "vote Democrat because the DNC is the absolute best and we LOVE Hillary" quite often


It's not about being imperfect. It's about not using public power to improve people's lives. Democrats just don't believe in governing. They really don't think public servants are legitimate purveyors of power.

The Dems for some reason, perhaps ideology, just aren't bold or brave enough to take on the power structures that are squeezing people dry. Perhaps its cause most of the ones in office are puppets of those powers that be.

Being against Trump as your sole opposition tactic isn't enough. And paying lip service to some progressive issues ain't enough.

There's no madness and it's not a mystery. GOP prints money and hands it to their friends on Wall Street. Dems don't believe the gov't can print money because their friends on Wall Street tell them they can't.

The authority to print money is in the Constitution and it is reserved to Congress. You'll know Democrats are serious when they propose having Congress run monetary policy. The Federal Open Market Committee of the Federal Reserve should have members of Congress on it.


I mean, I agree.

But our options in the immediate are Trump or a Democrat. I care way more about issues like protecting Mueller, ensuring our elections aren't rigged, minimize gerrymandering, etc than I do about improving how Democrats govern.

Trump is an existential threat. We can deal with all this other stuff when we return to normality.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XVIII 

Post#867 » by nate33 » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:23 pm

FAH1223 wrote:There's no madness and it's not a mystery. GOP prints money and hands it to their friends on Wall Street. Dems don't believe the gov't can print money because their friends on Wall Street tell them they can't.

The authority to print money is in the Constitution and it is reserved to Congress. You'll know Democrats are serious when they propose having Congress run monetary policy. The Federal Open Market Committee of the Federal Reserve should have members of Congress on it.

Go look up campaign donations. The Democrats are the party of Wall Street now.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XVIII 

Post#868 » by dckingsfan » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:26 pm

...Message is inherently - because of their donors...

Republicans can't govern- because of their donors.

And there you have it.
TGW wrote:Hey Pointgod--watch this video, and then watch it again. Just one reason why your "vote Democrat down the line" rhetoric is silly and doesn't solve anything if you're a true believer of democratic principles:

Spoiler:
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XVIII 

Post#869 » by montestewart » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:27 pm

gtn130 wrote:
montestewart wrote:
gtn130 wrote:Democrats being imperfect is pretty low hanging fruit when there's a fascist moron in power

People seem to conflate "vote Democrat so we can save our democracy from Trump" with "vote Democrat because the DNC is the absolute best and we LOVE Hillary" quite often

Not me. Maybe you should identify who you're talking about when you say "people."


Was referring to a post on the page before, stuff DC has said in the past, and other things I encounter from people in my life. Didn't think it was a scathing criticism

Sorry, get a lot of **** over voting Green, even had to patiently explain it to my wife, who at least understands it, though she hasn't joined me. If it was one citizen = one vote, with no electoral college, I'd likely have a different approach. I know how to hold my nose and cast a vote. But here in DC, it is what it is, no congressional representation, no meaningful presidential vote, and a very parochial and intrusive oversight of local (playing at) government.

Just a point about the other "DC", whether it's DCZards or dckingsfan, I think they both voted for Clinton.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XVIII 

Post#870 » by dckingsfan » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:29 pm

gtn130 wrote:
montestewart wrote:
gtn130 wrote:Democrats being imperfect is pretty low hanging fruit when there's a fascist moron in power

People seem to conflate "vote Democrat so we can save our democracy from Trump" with "vote Democrat because the DNC is the absolute best and we LOVE Hillary" quite often

Not me. Maybe you should identify who you're talking about when you say "people."

Was referring to a post on the page before, stuff DC has said in the past, and other things I encounter from people in my life. Didn't think it was a scathing criticism

I am also, vote D to get the power away from Trump in this election cycle. Guess I continue to point out we have two bad options...
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XVIII 

Post#871 » by Pointgod » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:33 pm

TGW wrote:Hey Pointgod--watch this video, and then watch it again. Just one reason why your "vote Democrat down the line" rhetoric is silly and doesn't solve anything if you're a true believer of democratic principles:

;t=461s


I watched the whole video and I don't disagree with a lot of what he says. Democrats need to find a message, Democrats need some structure, Democrats need to decide how much they're going to rely on their corporate donors.

The thing with news like The Intercept, Kyle Kaminski, Young Turks(which I follow) is that their whole marketing angle is that they're not the mainstream media. So alot of their bashing of the corporate media and "Corporate Dems" is simply to build their own brand and viewership. The thing with Progressive and "far left" voices is that it's easy to run on grandiose promises but governing is hard. Reality is even more sober and even if a wave of Progressives swept the midterms, guess what they would too disappoint you in some way.
Republicans control all 3 branches of government and they can barely get anything done.

If Progressives want to primary every Democratic politician up for reelection then that's a good thing. New ideas are always good and it's also a good way to judge the temperature of the electorate. But after primaries are over don't sulk or stay at home, support the Democrat and continue to build on your own side. I'd say the same thing for voters who's candidate was more centrist as well. Cutting off your nose to spite your face is always the stupidest decision you can make. In the big picture, if you want Liberal or even far left policies you'll need non Republican Federal and Supreme court judges, you'll need non Republican state legislatures and non Republican Governors. We have ample examples of Republicans subverting the will of the people, violating norms and implementing anti Democratic policies. Why the hell would you want to give them more power?
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XVIII 

Post#872 » by gtn130 » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:34 pm

nate33 wrote:
FAH1223 wrote:There's no madness and it's not a mystery. GOP prints money and hands it to their friends on Wall Street. Dems don't believe the gov't can print money because their friends on Wall Street tell them they can't.

The authority to print money is in the Constitution and it is reserved to Congress. You'll know Democrats are serious when they propose having Congress run monetary policy. The Federal Open Market Committee of the Federal Reserve should have members of Congress on it.

Go look up campaign donations. The Democrats are the party of Wall Street now.


This is a pretty bad way of looking at political donations. Huge sums of money come in anonymously through nonprofits.

There's really no way of knowing for sure which party gets more money from Wall Street, but if I were to venture a guess it would be the party that just cut revenue by $1.5T to give millionaires and corporations a tax break and also wants to further deregulate the financial industry. Just a hunch, though.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XVIII 

Post#873 » by Pointgod » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:35 pm

gtn130 wrote:Democrats being imperfect is pretty low hanging fruit when there's a fascist moron in power

People seem to conflate "vote Democrat so we can save our democracy from Trump" with "vote Democrat because the DNC is the absolute best and we LOVE Hillary" quite often


A party that fights two battles, one against itself and one against Republicans will always be at a disadvantage.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XVIII 

Post#874 » by gtn130 » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:37 pm

montestewart wrote:
gtn130 wrote:
montestewart wrote:Not me. Maybe you should identify who you're talking about when you say "people."


Was referring to a post on the page before, stuff DC has said in the past, and other things I encounter from people in my life. Didn't think it was a scathing criticism

Sorry, get a lot of **** over voting Green, even had to patiently explain it to my wife, who at least understands it, though she hasn't joined me. If it was one citizen = one vote, with no electoral college, I'd likely have a different approach. I know how to hold my nose and cast a vote. But here in DC, it is what it is, no congressional representation, no meaningful presidential vote, and a very parochial and intrusive oversight of local (playing at) government.

Just a point about the other "DC", whether it's DCZards or dckingsfan, I think they both voted for Clinton.


Yeah, I have no problem with people voting Jill Stein or whatever as long as it wasn't a swing state. Personally, I thought Jill Stein was a joke, but I'm fine with the Green Party more broadly.

I was referring to dckingsfan - he gets on me about Hillary and the DNC all the time, but I actually generally agree with him about the DNC being ineffectual and Hillary being bad. None of it matters though until Orange is gone.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XVIII 

Post#875 » by gtn130 » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:41 pm

Pointgod wrote:
gtn130 wrote:Democrats being imperfect is pretty low hanging fruit when there's a fascist moron in power

People seem to conflate "vote Democrat so we can save our democracy from Trump" with "vote Democrat because the DNC is the absolute best and we LOVE Hillary" quite often


A party that fights two battles, one against itself and one against Republicans will always be at a disadvantage.


Yeah, it's pretty silly. We're out here worried that the DNC is ineffective at governing and too cozy with lobbyists while the RNC and the White House are thinking up new ways to imprison black people and rig the elections.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XVIII 

Post#876 » by montestewart » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:44 pm

gtn130 wrote:
montestewart wrote:
gtn130 wrote:
Was referring to a post on the page before, stuff DC has said in the past, and other things I encounter from people in my life. Didn't think it was a scathing criticism

Sorry, get a lot of **** over voting Green, even had to patiently explain it to my wife, who at least understands it, though she hasn't joined me. If it was one citizen = one vote, with no electoral college, I'd likely have a different approach. I know how to hold my nose and cast a vote. But here in DC, it is what it is, no congressional representation, no meaningful presidential vote, and a very parochial and intrusive oversight of local (playing at) government.

Just a point about the other "DC", whether it's DCZards or dckingsfan, I think they both voted for Clinton.


Yeah, I have no problem with people voting Jill Stein or whatever as long as it wasn't a swing state. Personally, I thought Jill Stein was a joke, but I'm fine with the Green Party more broadly.

I was referring to dckingsfan - he gets on me about Hillary and the DNC all the time, but I actually generally agree with him about the DNC being ineffectual and Hillary being bad. None of it matters though until Orange is gone.

I think a lot of Green Part voters think Stein would be a highly ineffective president, and that a lot of Green Party voters, along with other 3rd party voters, vote 3rd party partially as a protest against the electoral college. If your vote doesn't matter, you start thinking Donald Duck. Which is what my downstairs neighbor already calls the president anyway.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XVIII 

Post#877 » by dckingsfan » Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:08 pm

gtn130 wrote:
nate33 wrote:
FAH1223 wrote:There's no madness and it's not a mystery. GOP prints money and hands it to their friends on Wall Street. Dems don't believe the gov't can print money because their friends on Wall Street tell them they can't.

The authority to print money is in the Constitution and it is reserved to Congress. You'll know Democrats are serious when they propose having Congress run monetary policy. The Federal Open Market Committee of the Federal Reserve should have members of Congress on it.

Go look up campaign donations. The Democrats are the party of Wall Street now.

This is a pretty bad way of looking at political donations. Huge sums of money come in anonymously through nonprofits.

There's really no way of knowing for sure which party gets more money from Wall Street, but if I were to venture a guess it would be the party that just cut revenue by $1.5T to give millionaires and corporations a tax break and also wants to further deregulate the financial industry. Just a hunch, though.

Actually, its not. And it explains many things including the tax code. Remember when a certain senator from NV gave a huge carveout to casinos? Remember when the Ds pushed hard for the differentiation between regular and investment income?

The Rs give huge carveouts to their millionaires and billionaires as do the Ds.

Do you see ANY Ds running on getting rid of the carveouts? Any?
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XVIII 

Post#878 » by gtn130 » Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:16 pm

dckingsfan wrote:
gtn130 wrote:
nate33 wrote:Go look up campaign donations. The Democrats are the party of Wall Street now.

This is a pretty bad way of looking at political donations. Huge sums of money come in anonymously through nonprofits.

There's really no way of knowing for sure which party gets more money from Wall Street, but if I were to venture a guess it would be the party that just cut revenue by $1.5T to give millionaires and corporations a tax break and also wants to further deregulate the financial industry. Just a hunch, though.

Actually, its not. And it explains many things including the tax code. Remember when a certain senator from NV gave a huge carveout to casinos? Remember when the Ds pushed hard for the differentiation between regular and investment income?

The Rs give huge carveouts to their millionaires and billionaires as do the Ds.

Do you see ANY Ds running on getting rid of the carveouts? Any?


So you're advocating we ignore super-PACs and totally anonymous 501(c)4 nonprofit campaigns, and instead focus only on direct public donations, then sort by who has the larger number and declare them THE PARTY OF WALL STREET?

Whatever you say, man lol
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XVIII 

Post#879 » by gtn130 » Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:20 pm

According to the Center for Responsive Politics, conservative nonprofits spent more than $263 million during the 2012 campaign, while liberal counterparts spent close to $35 million. A separate Center For Responsive Politics/Center for Public Integrity study found that in 2010, the social welfare nonprofits outspent super PACs by a 3-2 margin.


Again, sorting by publicly known direct donations and making bold declarations about them is completely asinine.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XVIII 

Post#880 » by TGW » Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:20 pm

gtn130 wrote:
Pointgod wrote:
gtn130 wrote:Democrats being imperfect is pretty low hanging fruit when there's a fascist moron in power

People seem to conflate "vote Democrat so we can save our democracy from Trump" with "vote Democrat because the DNC is the absolute best and we LOVE Hillary" quite often


A party that fights two battles, one against itself and one against Republicans will always be at a disadvantage.


Yeah, it's pretty silly. We're out here worried that the DNC is ineffective at governing and too cozy with lobbyists while the RNC and the White House are thinking up new ways to imprison black people and rig the elections.


That's complete nonsense. First of all, both parties rig elections and "imprison" black people. You honestly think the Democrats don't? You talk about it, but I literally had friends and family locked up because of the Clinton crime bill in the 90's. I couldn't vote in the democratic primaries in my state because I wasn't a self-identified democrat. So miss me with the rhetoric.

If you don't demand better from your politicians in a two-party system, you're just a pom-pom waiver.
Some random troll wrote:Not to sound negative, but this team is owned by an arrogant cheapskate, managed by a moron and coached by an idiot. Recipe for disaster.

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