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montestewart wrote:Chenier was their SG in their glory days--four Finals in the 70s--with him on three of those teams. Unseld was a virtual non-scoring option, and Chenier's scoring helped take pressure off Hayes. Injuries may have derailed his career, but he then became the Bullets/Wizards color analyst for thirty years.

Other than Unseld and Pollin, I can think of anyone who better symbolizes the franchise. Few people quibble about Bill Bradley's retired jersey. Sometimes it's about more than the numbers. Sure, give him bonus points for service to the franchise, but retire the jersey.

gravytrain24 wrote:

montestewart wrote:Chenier was their SG in their glory days--four Finals in the 70s--with him on three of those teams. Unseld was a virtual non-scoring option, and Chenier's scoring helped take pressure off Hayes. Injuries may have derailed his career, but he then became the Bullets/Wizards color analyst for thirty years.

Other than Unseld and Pollin, I can think of anyone who better symbolizes the franchise. Few people quibble about Bill Bradley's retired jersey. Sometimes it's about more than the numbers. Sure, give him bonus points for service to the franchise, but retire the jersey.

So, it sounds like its more of a lifetime achievement of service to the franchise then an actual statistical thing. It got me thinking about Gilbert, John. Are there numbers jerseys getting retired.

montestewart wrote:

gravytrain24 wrote:

montestewart wrote:Chenier was their SG in their glory days--four Finals in the 70s--with him on three of those teams. Unseld was a virtual non-scoring option, and Chenier's scoring helped take pressure off Hayes. Injuries may have derailed his career, but he then became the Bullets/Wizards color analyst for thirty years.

Other than Unseld and Pollin, I can think of anyone who better symbolizes the franchise. Few people quibble about Bill Bradley's retired jersey. Sometimes it's about more than the numbers. Sure, give him bonus points for service to the franchise, but retire the jersey.

So, it sounds like its more of a lifetime achievement of service to the franchise then an actual statistical thing. It got me thinking about Gilbert, John. Are there numbers jerseys getting retired.

Compare Chenier with Bill Bradley, some Celtics, and probably a few others in NBA history who have had their numbers retired partially for their association with franchise success and/or contributions during seminal/foundational periods of a franchise (remember, Chenier was the SG when the Bullets arrived in DC). These might not be numbers based, but they are also not merely "lifetime achievement" contributions.

Neither Wall nor Arenas are associated with that level of team success, and Arenas in particular is connected with one of the more infamous incidents in NBA history. Arenas was very exciting at his peak, and Wall might have a decent claim eventually, but the argument in favor of either of them would be much different than the argument in favor of retiring Chenier's jersey. More like the Earl Monroe argument.

80sballboy wrote:Phil was an outstanding player. I was very young at the time but I do remember trying to imitate his turnaround jumper and his form. He had a great stroke and all the back injuries hampered his overall production. This is not a great franchise (anymore) so obviously going back to celebrate Wes, Elvin and Phil is a good thing. Phil was no chump. Maybe he was slightly above a guy like Jeff Malone but sure Wall is a lock and Beal is on his way. No Arenas as long as Ted is running the team.

Ruzious wrote:And that was Kenny Green over Karl Malone. Depending on who you believe, some say Ferry very much wanted to pick Karl Malone, but the coach at the time (I think Gene Shue but maybe Motta?) wanted Green because he fit a perceived need rather than was the better player. And neither would bend, so they took it to Pollin - who decided on Green. Wow, is that ever a lesson to take the BPA?

I thought it was Ferry who made the great Elvin Hayes for Jack Marin trade.

Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:

montestewart wrote:

gravytrain24 wrote:So, it sounds like its more of a lifetime achievement of service to the franchise then an actual statistical thing. It got me thinking about Gilbert, John. Are there numbers jerseys getting retired.

Compare Chenier with Bill Bradley, some Celtics, and probably a few others in NBA history who have had their numbers retired partially for their association with franchise success and/or contributions during seminal/foundational periods of a franchise (remember, Chenier was the SG when the Bullets arrived in DC). These might not be numbers based, but they are also not merely "lifetime achievement" contributions.

Neither Wall nor Arenas are associated with that level of team success, and Arenas in particular is connected with one of the more infamous incidents in NBA history. Arenas was very exciting at his peak, and Wall might have a decent claim eventually, but the argument in favor of either of them would be much different than the argument in favor of retiring Chenier's jersey. More like the Earl Monroe argument.

80sballboy wrote:Phil was an outstanding player. I was very young at the time but I do remember trying to imitate his turnaround jumper and his form. He had a great stroke and all the back injuries hampered his overall production. This is not a great franchise (anymore) so obviously going back to celebrate Wes, Elvin and Phil is a good thing. Phil was no chump. Maybe he was slightly above a guy like Jeff Malone but sure Wall is a lock and Beal is on his way. No Arenas as long as Ted is running the team.

These great posts made me wonder how and why did Washington's franchise achieve greatness?

https://www.basketball-reference.com/executives/ferrybo01x.html

Elvin Hayes, Wes Unseld, and Phil Chenier each preceded Bob Ferry. The link above shows player and personnel moves by the most successful Bullets/Wizards GM. It certainly helps that Bob Ferry inherited two Hall of Fame players.

Ferry hired KC Jones, who took Washington to the Finals in 1975. Dick Motta eventually one one title and lost the next Finals.

Ferry had some pretty good moves up until about 1981; but by 1985 he was drafting the likes of Kenny Green.


If I had to compare players I would say that Phil Chenier and Jeff Malone were on a par with Bradley Beal. Three good scorers. Phil did his scoring with fluidity and quickness, like Lou Williams. Jeff Malone was a bulkier guy. Just as big as Beal but not jacked like Bradley. If any of the three played with great teammates they would be really good but not superstars.

80sballboy wrote:

Ruzious wrote:And that was Kenny Green over Karl Malone. Depending on who you believe, some say Ferry very much wanted to pick Karl Malone, but the coach at the time (I think Gene Shue but maybe Motta?) wanted Green because he fit a perceived need rather than was the better player. And neither would bend, so they took it to Pollin - who decided on Green. Wow, is that ever a lesson to take the BPA?

I thought it was Ferry who made the great Elvin Hayes for Jack Marin trade.

Yeah, I think it was the late Ken Beatrice who floated that Gene Shue wanted Green over the Mailman and we know how that worked out. Beatrice as many know would "exaggerate" at times so who knows how true that was.

Ruzious wrote:Thanks FAH. That was... awesome.