ImageImageImageImageImage

Discussing Other Teams' Moves - Part 7

Moderators: LyricalRico, nate33, montestewart

User avatar
Rafael122
Forum Mod
Forum Mod
Posts: 20,052
And1: 2,779
Joined: Oct 11, 2004
       

Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves - Part 7 

Post#521 » by Rafael122 » Wed May 15, 2019 2:28 pm

nate33 wrote:
Rafael122 wrote:I think at the very least, Griffin needs to give Davis and Zion a chance until the trade deadline. The books are pretty clean next offseason.

On the flip side, if the Lakers come to Griffin with a final offer of Ball/Ingram/Kuzma/4th pick for Davis, I have no clue why they wouldn't take that deal.

PG - Ball
SG - Holiday
SF - Ingram
PF - Zion
C - ?

If I'm New Orleans, I'm still looking to the Celtics for the best offer. The Celtics still have that Memphis pick which didn't convey this year. It's top 6 protected next year and unprotected the year after. If they can get that pick plus one of Tatum or Brown, I think that's a better offer than the Lakers. The Lakers are offering 3 guys, none of whom are likely to be a All Star, and frankly, may not even be average starters.


But if being all stars in the West is the barometer, then Tatum and Brown aren't going to make one any time soon. Brown seems like a decent 6th man, but not a core play and truthfully, I wouldn't want to wait 2 years for a pick to convey.
Bickerstaff: who's up for kickball?!!
Ed Wood: Only if it's the no-pants variety.
I_Like_Dirt
RealGM
Posts: 34,460
And1: 8,719
Joined: Jul 12, 2003
Location: Boardman gets paid!

Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves - Part 7 

Post#522 » by I_Like_Dirt » Wed May 15, 2019 4:01 pm

Rafael122 wrote:But if being all stars in the West is the barometer, then Tatum and Brown aren't going to make one any time soon. Brown seems like a decent 6th man, but not a core play and truthfully, I wouldn't want to wait 2 years for a pick to convey.


I know Tatum made his name in the playoffs last season, notably the series against the Sixers, but when the playoffs roll around, Brown always seems to be about as good or better than Tatum. Tatum is better in the regular season but he's not some major star in the regular season, either. I've suggested Tatum was closer to Rashard Lewis since the draft and I think he looks like that even more now. Lewis was an allstar and probably underappreciated for his time. Brown, I have no idea, really. I think he has more upside than Tatum but also more downside. I like both players but I don't think they represent some amazing unbeatable package.
Bucket! Bucket!
User avatar
Rafael122
Forum Mod
Forum Mod
Posts: 20,052
And1: 2,779
Joined: Oct 11, 2004
       

Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves - Part 7 

Post#523 » by Rafael122 » Wed May 15, 2019 4:04 pm

I_Like_Dirt wrote:
Rafael122 wrote:But if being all stars in the West is the barometer, then Tatum and Brown aren't going to make one any time soon. Brown seems like a decent 6th man, but not a core play and truthfully, I wouldn't want to wait 2 years for a pick to convey.


I know Tatum made his name in the playoffs last season, notably the series against the Sixers, but when the playoffs roll around, Brown always seems to be about as good or better than Tatum. Tatum is better in the regular season but he's not some major star in the regular season, either. I've suggested Tatum was closer to Rashard Lewis since the draft and I think he looks like that even more now. Lewis was an allstar and probably underappreciated for his time. Brown, I have no idea, really. I think he has more upside than Tatum but also more downside. I like both players but I don't think they represent some amazing unbeatable package.


And to piggyback off the Memphis pick, not suggesting this will happen every year, but the Hawks had the 5th best odds and dropped 3 spots. The way the lottery went last night, I think teams will be less willing to trade lottery picks.
Bickerstaff: who's up for kickball?!!
Ed Wood: Only if it's the no-pants variety.
I_Like_Dirt
RealGM
Posts: 34,460
And1: 8,719
Joined: Jul 12, 2003
Location: Boardman gets paid!

Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves - Part 7 

Post#524 » by I_Like_Dirt » Wed May 15, 2019 4:19 pm

Rafael122 wrote:
And to piggyback off the Memphis pick, not suggesting this will happen every year, but the Hawks had the 5th best odds and dropped 3 spots. The way the lottery went last night, I think teams will be less willing to trade lottery picks.


I think the Grizzlies are poised to be in the ~30-ish win range by 2020. I think it's a good pick but not a great one. I have no idea the value of picks moving forward, though. They're more mercurial that way than ever. The new lottery odds increase the chances of the Celtics getting lucky, at least.

As always, Ainge is going to have to figure out how to manage a load of roster turnover. They keep waiving guys they draft later in the 1st round or 2nd round because they don't have roster spots. They have a bunch of picks to make this season (4, to be precise) and while they have roster spots, I have to assume they want to keep guys like Kyrie and Horford (if he opts out) around and probably want to bring in some vets, too, if they can.
Bucket! Bucket!
trast66
Rookie
Posts: 1,177
And1: 614
Joined: Oct 20, 2017
   

Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves - Part 7 

Post#525 » by trast66 » Tue May 21, 2019 9:59 pm

Lillard to sign Supermax.

"Lillard has two years and approximately $62 million remaining on his current deal. The extension would put him under contract for the next six years, and he'd be 34 years old by the time the deal expires."

I think Blazers have to do it, but as we know with John, injury can make you a non-contender for a few years.

Also remember this "March 15, 2012: Gerald Wallace traded by the Portland Trail Blazers to the New Jersey Nets for Mehmet Okur, Shawne Williams and a 2012 1st round draft pick (Damian Lillard was later selected).
I_Like_Dirt
RealGM
Posts: 34,460
And1: 8,719
Joined: Jul 12, 2003
Location: Boardman gets paid!

Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves - Part 7 

Post#526 » by I_Like_Dirt » Wed May 22, 2019 6:09 pm

trast66 wrote:Lillard to sign Supermax.

"Lillard has two years and approximately $62 million remaining on his current deal. The extension would put him under contract for the next six years, and he'd be 34 years old by the time the deal expires."

I think Blazers have to do it, but as we know with John, injury can make you a non-contender for a few years.

Also remember this "March 15, 2012: Gerald Wallace traded by the Portland Trail Blazers to the New Jersey Nets for Mehmet Okur, Shawne Williams and a 2012 1st round draft pick (Damian Lillard was later selected).


That's going to bite the Blazers over the long term. To their credit, unlike the Wall contract, at least the Blazers got to win 50+ games a few times and make the conference finals. Ernie was giving out that contract on a 49-win 2nd round peak. Portland also seems to be a reasonably solid team when it comes to scouting and player development. With Lillard's contract, they're going to have to lean on those skills pretty heavily.
Bucket! Bucket!
User avatar
nate33
Forum Mod - Wizards
Forum Mod - Wizards
Posts: 67,024
And1: 19,334
Joined: Oct 28, 2002

Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves - Part 7 

Post#527 » by nate33 » Wed May 22, 2019 6:51 pm

I_Like_Dirt wrote:
trast66 wrote:Lillard to sign Supermax.

"Lillard has two years and approximately $62 million remaining on his current deal. The extension would put him under contract for the next six years, and he'd be 34 years old by the time the deal expires."

I think Blazers have to do it, but as we know with John, injury can make you a non-contender for a few years.

Also remember this "March 15, 2012: Gerald Wallace traded by the Portland Trail Blazers to the New Jersey Nets for Mehmet Okur, Shawne Williams and a 2012 1st round draft pick (Damian Lillard was later selected).


That's going to bite the Blazers over the long term. To their credit, unlike the Wall contract, at least the Blazers got to win 50+ games a few times and make the conference finals. Ernie was giving out that contract on a 49-win 2nd round peak. Portland also seems to be a reasonably solid team when it comes to scouting and player development. With Lillard's contract, they're going to have to lean on those skills pretty heavily.

I'm sure they don't love the idea of paying him $50M a year on the last two years of his deal when he is 33 and 34 years old, but that's the cost of doing business in the NBA. They are overpaying in the future to keep him happy now. By all accounts, Lillard is a great leader and sets a great example for the direction of the franchise. He is the 3rd best guard in the league.
User avatar
Illuminaire
Veteran
Posts: 2,970
And1: 606
Joined: Jan 04, 2010
 

Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves - Part 7 

Post#528 » by Illuminaire » Wed May 22, 2019 8:35 pm

I was having this argument with a friend. I fully concede that Lillard is a fantastic player and teammate. While I might not say he's the 3rd best guard in the league, he's absolutely top five even if I'm splitting hairs.

He's still not worth the supermax.

That's not his fault. It's that almost no one in the league IS worth 35% of the cap. Teams that sign those contracts have generally struggled to compete at the highest level; the only time it's safe to lock down that much of your cap is when you are already a championship caliber team and you're just going deeper into luxury tax territory.

The Blazers are going to lose a large number of rotation players this offseason. They also have CJ's new contract coming up. Does CJ think he's all that much worse than Lillard, or much less valuable to the team? Even if it's just perception, if Lillard takes the maximum possible compensation, CJ will probably want to get as much as possible too.

That combination of contracts will sink their team for the next half decade. Again, it's not the fault of those players... and I respect people who want to get paid.

But man. The price is steep. And not just in $$$.
trast66
Rookie
Posts: 1,177
And1: 614
Joined: Oct 20, 2017
   

Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves - Part 7 

Post#529 » by trast66 » Thu May 23, 2019 12:56 am

Illuminaire wrote:.... the only time it's safe to lock down that much of your cap is when you are already a championship caliber team and you're just going deeper into luxury tax territory.


That’s it, agree completely. There appear to be non basketball factors (business) factors that teams overrule team building logic.
payitforward
RealGM
Posts: 21,958
And1: 7,873
Joined: May 02, 2012
Location: On the Atlantic

Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves - Part 7 

Post#530 » by payitforward » Thu May 23, 2019 1:59 am

Illuminaire wrote:...almost no one in the league IS worth 35% of the cap....

I agree entirely. I doubt there are a half dozen guys worth that.
Breaking News: In a shocking development, Wizards owner Ted Leonsis has sold the NBA franchise to a consortium of participants in a discussion board devoted to the team on realgm.com. Details to follow....
User avatar
tontoz
RealGM
Posts: 18,496
And1: 3,926
Joined: Apr 11, 2005

Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves - Part 7 

Post#531 » by tontoz » Thu May 23, 2019 2:22 am

Only guys i would surely pay the supermax:

Steph
KD
Kawhi
Giannis
Harden
Lebron

Maybes

PG13 playing like he did this season pre-injury
Jokic


Just because a guy qualifies for the supermax doesn't mean you have to give it to him but it seems like GMs haven't gotten the memo.
"bulky agile perimeter bone crunch pick setting draymond green" WizD
I_Like_Dirt
RealGM
Posts: 34,460
And1: 8,719
Joined: Jul 12, 2003
Location: Boardman gets paid!

Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves - Part 7 

Post#532 » by I_Like_Dirt » Thu May 23, 2019 2:35 pm

Illuminaire wrote:I was having this argument with a friend. I fully concede that Lillard is a fantastic player and teammate. While I might not say he's the 3rd best guard in the league, he's absolutely top five even if I'm splitting hairs.

He's still not worth the supermax.

That's not his fault. It's that almost no one in the league IS worth 35% of the cap. Teams that sign those contracts have generally struggled to compete at the highest level; the only time it's safe to lock down that much of your cap is when you are already a championship caliber team and you're just going deeper into luxury tax territory.

The Blazers are going to lose a large number of rotation players this offseason. They also have CJ's new contract coming up. Does CJ think he's all that much worse than Lillard, or much less valuable to the team? Even if it's just perception, if Lillard takes the maximum possible compensation, CJ will probably want to get as much as possible too.

That combination of contracts will sink their team for the next half decade. Again, it's not the fault of those players... and I respect people who want to get paid.

But man. The price is steep. And not just in $$$.




I actually think he is worth the supermax. That's actually the problem. Fans tend to think players are only "worth" something if they can realistically envision a way to build a top end contender with the player on their contract on a roster. That's not actually a sign of a player being paid what they're worth. That's a sign of a player being underpaid.

Really, if all things were equal and every player was paid exactly what they were worth and every team paid the same salaries out to get precisely the same value per dollar spent, you'd see every team at .500. That's the measure of value, to my mind. Can you build a team that's about .500 relatively easily with a player on that contract? If so, the player is probably worth his contract. The issue is that building a team full of players who are worth their contract results in a .500 team which isn't what fans actually want. They're looking for players who are underpaid relative the market and then branding that as fair value for the player. I'd suggest that Lillard is currently underpaid on his current contract and the supermax will be closer to his actual worth. Being close to his actual worth does make it harder to build a legitimate contender around him, though, as the team will have to find other players to get value of by virtue of underpaying relative what they bring and they won't have a lot of salary room to do it with.

And I had the same thought as you about Lillard: he can't possibly be the third best guard in the NBA. Then I took a look. He probably is. Curry and Harden are obviously better but after them, things level out really, really quickly. Lillard is probably a little better than the current older version of Chris Paul even though Paul doesn't show how good he is statistically with Harden on the roster. Ben Simmons may pass him eventually but he needs to learn to shoot from somewhere, even the FT line, before he even has a chance. Westbrook would be debatable but I think Lillard is better than him at this point. Lowry, Irving, Bledsoe, Walker, Conley, Butler, Oladipo, Beal, etc. are all worse than Lillard. Third is probably the right spot for him right now. That might not be true even next season, but this season, it sure looks like it.
Bucket! Bucket!
User avatar
Illuminaire
Veteran
Posts: 2,970
And1: 606
Joined: Jan 04, 2010
 

Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves - Part 7 

Post#533 » by Illuminaire » Thu May 23, 2019 3:28 pm

Yes, Dirt. Because fans like it when their team can realistically fight for a championship. That's why they play the game, no?

If signing a supermax contract will prevent your team from ever winning a championship, then that is a bad strategic decision for your team.

As for whether it is fair value for a player from a pure economic perspective, we have no way to show that either way. Because the CBA hard limits salaries, dictates the amount for exceptions, etc... all salaries in the NBA are effected by artificially imposed changes on their true market value.

Even if we could figure out what a player is worth from an economic perspective... why? We're not players, we're fans. We're here talking about how to build a team, and do it well enough to kick some basketball ass. To that end, most of the supermaxes being handed out are terrible and will cripple their teams for years.
I_Like_Dirt
RealGM
Posts: 34,460
And1: 8,719
Joined: Jul 12, 2003
Location: Boardman gets paid!

Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves - Part 7 

Post#534 » by I_Like_Dirt » Thu May 23, 2019 5:07 pm

Illuminaire wrote:Yes, Dirt. Because fans like it when their team can realistically fight for a championship. That's why they play the game, no?

If signing a supermax contract will prevent your team from ever winning a championship, then that is a bad strategic decision for your team.

As for whether it is fair value for a player from a pure economic perspective, we have no way to show that either way. Because the CBA hard limits salaries, dictates the amount for exceptions, etc... all salaries in the NBA are effected by artificially imposed changes on their true market value.

Even if we could figure out what a player is worth from an economic perspective... why? We're not players, we're fans. We're here talking about how to build a team, and do it well enough to kick some basketball ass. To that end, most of the supermaxes being handed out are terrible and will cripple their teams for years.


A bad strategic decision only within the confines of competing for a championship, and even there, that doesn't necessarily mean overpaid. Winning a championship isn't the only purposes of a sports team, nor does a supermax prevent being a contender forever in perpetuity. If it was all about championship or bust, then every team that isn't Golden State and maybe the Rockets, Bucks and Raptors should be pulling a Hinkie. Only the Rockets, Bucks and Raptors weren't contenders so long ago and didn't pull a Hinkie, either. Yes, teams should be striving for championships but there are different ways to become a championship team and even if they aren't a true contender it doesn't mean they shouldn't lose perspective on actual value.

That said, the flipside to this is I do think Michele Roberts was right when it came to the notion of a supermax. The problem with the supermax isn't the contract or the player. It's the notion that it's a no-brainer to bring back any particular player at any cost. Lillard wouldn't be a boat anchor on that contract, unless he gets hurt, which happens far too often, sadly. He just won't be the value that drives a contender. If they somehow managed to draft the next Kawhi Leonard and Draymond Green with later picks in the next draft or two, they'll be happy they still have Lillard alongside them rather than a bunch of scraps. Nothing is guaranteed.
Bucket! Bucket!
Ruzious
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 47,909
And1: 11,579
Joined: Jul 17, 2001
       

Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves - Part 7 

Post#535 » by Ruzious » Thu Jun 6, 2019 9:12 pm

Wow, what a great trade the Hawks made with Brooklyn. Now they have picks 8, 10, and 17 - and Brooklyn's 2020 1st. So the Nets have room for 2 max contracts; who are they targetting?

Hmm, Beal for Huerter and picks 8 and 10 and the higher of the Nets or Hawks 2020 1st? And we take on Crabbe's expiring. Oh yeah, we don't have a GM.
"A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools." - Douglas Adams
queridiculo
RealGM
Posts: 17,705
And1: 9,055
Joined: Mar 29, 2005
Location: So long Wizturdz.
   

Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves - Part 7 

Post#536 » by queridiculo » Thu Jun 6, 2019 9:18 pm

Ruzious wrote:Wow, what a great trade the Hawks made with Brooklyn. Now they have picks 8, 10, and 17 - and Brooklyn's 2020 1st. So the Nets have room for 2 max contracts; who are they targetting?

Hmm, Beal for Huerter and picks 8 and 10 and the higher of the Nets or Hawks 2020 1st? Oh yeah, we don't have a GM.


Travis Schlenk doing work. Bob Myers gets a lot of credit for his work with the Warriors, but Schlenk was the guy that many lauded for his talent evaluation skills before he took the top spot with the Hawks.

Not a lot of top end talent in this draft, but there are some solid guys with upside available.

Wouldn't be shocked to see them take a flyer on Bol Bol with that Brooklyn pick.

Irving and Durant makes too much sense for Brooklyn now.

I'd laugh if that happened after how cocksure the Knicks were about having an offseason to remember.
Ruzious
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 47,909
And1: 11,579
Joined: Jul 17, 2001
       

Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves - Part 7 

Post#537 » by Ruzious » Thu Jun 6, 2019 9:24 pm

queridiculo wrote:
Ruzious wrote:Wow, what a great trade the Hawks made with Brooklyn. Now they have picks 8, 10, and 17 - and Brooklyn's 2020 1st. So the Nets have room for 2 max contracts; who are they targetting?

Hmm, Beal for Huerter and picks 8 and 10 and the higher of the Nets or Hawks 2020 1st? Oh yeah, we don't have a GM.


Travis Schlenk doing work. Bob Myers gets a lot of credit for his work with the Warriors, but Schlenk was the guy that many lauded for his talent evaluation skills before he took the top spot with the Hawks.

Not a lot of top end talent in this draft, but there are some solid guys with upside available.

Wouldn't be shocked to see them take a flyer on Bol Bol with that Brooklyn pick.

Irving and Durant makes too much sense for Brooklyn now.

I'd laugh if that happened after how cocksure the Knicks were about having an offseason to remember.

That might cause a civil war in NY - love it!
"A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools." - Douglas Adams
ozthegap
Senior
Posts: 671
And1: 159
Joined: Jul 01, 2015
 

Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves - Part 7 

Post#538 » by ozthegap » Thu Jun 6, 2019 10:25 pm

Ruzious wrote:
queridiculo wrote:
Ruzious wrote:Wow, what a great trade the Hawks made with Brooklyn. Now they have picks 8, 10, and 17 - and Brooklyn's 2020 1st. So the Nets have room for 2 max contracts; who are they targetting?

Hmm, Beal for Huerter and picks 8 and 10 and the higher of the Nets or Hawks 2020 1st? Oh yeah, we don't have a GM.


Travis Schlenk doing work. Bob Myers gets a lot of credit for his work with the Warriors, but Schlenk was the guy that many lauded for his talent evaluation skills before he took the top spot with the Hawks.

Not a lot of top end talent in this draft, but there are some solid guys with upside available.

Wouldn't be shocked to see them take a flyer on Bol Bol with that Brooklyn pick.

Irving and Durant makes too much sense for Brooklyn now.

I'd laugh if that happened after how cocksure the Knicks were about having an offseason to remember.

That might cause a civil war in NY - love it!


I wonder how Steven A. Smith is doing right about now. :lol: :lol: :lol:
payitforward
RealGM
Posts: 21,958
And1: 7,873
Joined: May 02, 2012
Location: On the Atlantic

Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves - Part 7 

Post#539 » by payitforward » Fri Jun 7, 2019 1:32 am

Ruzious wrote:Wow, what a great trade the Hawks made with Brooklyn. Now they have picks 8, 10, and 17 - and Brooklyn's 2020 1st. So the Nets have room for 2 max contracts; who are they targetting?

Hmm, Beal for Huerter and picks 8 and 10 and the higher of the Nets or Hawks 2020 1st? And we take on Crabbe's expiring. Oh yeah, we don't have a GM.

Atlanta's trade with Brooklyn suffices to put them past us in the future -- not necessarily this year (though maybe...), but soon. Given that Brooklyn is going to use the room to sign some serious talent, it also cements them as in front of us for some years.

Then, the Knicks sign KD, and.... Not to worry: Cleveland is still behind us. The Bulls too for a year or so.

We have a GM -- Tommy Sheppard is running the organization. He knows the phone numbers in Atlanta. He isn't the problem. The problem is the guy who doesn't know what he doesn't know.

Now would be the time to call too -- they're probably so giddy down there that they'd give us the #10 & #17 for our #9 !! No?

Must be fun to be an Atlanta fan right now, huh? :)
Breaking News: In a shocking development, Wizards owner Ted Leonsis has sold the NBA franchise to a consortium of participants in a discussion board devoted to the team on realgm.com. Details to follow....
ozthegap
Senior
Posts: 671
And1: 159
Joined: Jul 01, 2015
 

Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves - Part 7 

Post#540 » by ozthegap » Fri Jun 7, 2019 2:07 am

payitforward wrote:
Ruzious wrote:Now would be the time to call too -- they're probably so giddy down there that they'd give us the #10 & #17 for our #9 !! No?

Must be fun to be an Atlanta fan right now, huh? :)


Da Fuq???

Return to Washington Wizards