Discussing Other Teams' Moves - Part 7

[DCZards]

Honestly, while Ben definitely has his share of the blame here, it sure does reinforce the notion that Morey and Doc aren't particularly great at building positive work environments. Doc was talking about convincing Simmons to come back and just be one of the guys and nobody was expecting him to be anything but himself. What did he think that would look like? Is he really that out of touch?

Simmons got kicked out of practice and suspended for refusing River's request that he participate in defensive drills. That's selfish and unacceptable, imo.

I don't know how one player's childish behavior says anything about the Sixers work environment.

It is. It's also not like he didn't make it clear where his head was at yet Morey and Doc walked right into it anyway. Seriously, I'm curious how they figured this could possibly go any other way. They walked right into this and I'm not at all sure why. What did they think had changed that would sudden make Simmons more motivated? The fact that they threatened his salary publicly through the media on repeated occasions? That's pretty much behavior in line with what got them in this situation in the first place with Morey leaking everything to protect his image as he tends to do, and Doc dumping on Simmons at the end of playoff press conference. Doc tried nothing and ran out of ideas. They're like Flanders' parents.

Sorry...as Embiid said: the Sixers job is not to "babysit" Simmons. If Simmons didn't want to be there, he should have stayed away. It was his decision to show up.

I haven't heard any other Sixers players' complain about or criticize the work environment. Have you?

[I_Like_Dirt]

Simmons got kicked out of practice and suspended for refusing River's request that he participate in defensive drills. That's selfish and unacceptable, imo.

I don't know how one player's childish behavior says anything about the Sixers work environment.

It is. It's also not like he didn't make it clear where his head was at yet Morey and Doc walked right into it anyway. Seriously, I'm curious how they figured this could possibly go any other way. They walked right into this and I'm not at all sure why. What did they think had changed that would sudden make Simmons more motivated? The fact that they threatened his salary publicly through the media on repeated occasions? That's pretty much behavior in line with what got them in this situation in the first place with Morey leaking everything to protect his image as he tends to do, and Doc dumping on Simmons at the end of playoff press conference. Doc tried nothing and ran out of ideas. They're like Flanders' parents.

Sorry...but as Embiid said: the Sixers job is not to "babysit" Simmons. Ben is a grown a** man and needs to start liking acting like one.

I haven't heard any other Sixers players' complain about or criticize the work environment. Have you?

Of course Simmons is grown. But Embiid is sort of wrong. The word babysit mischaracterizes things a bit. The Sixers' job (especially management and coaching staff) is to build a function working team and they have failed to do that. Doing so might be as simple as just trading Simmons but they aren't doing that either.

Honestly, Embiid's attitude belies a managerial/coaching failure in allowing their star players to become so polarized. It's not something that normally happens on a lot of teams. It happened with Shaq and Kobe but they were a lot better than Embiid and Simmons and both won together and apart. More recently it happened with James Harden and Chris Paul and... that was Morey too...

These kinds of things can and do happen anywhere but they seem to happen a lot around Morey and Doc Rivers always seems to be struggling to live up to his reputation as a players coach and is more of a master of controversy and snatching defeat from the jaws of a 3-1 series lead.

There is loads of blame to go around and Simmons deserves his fair share. But there's far too much of it to lay at his feet. Morey was publicly trying to trade Simmons from the second he took the Sixers job. He built his work environment and he's living it now. He's an astute GM where trades are concerned but far less so at most everything else. Really it shouldn't be surprising that he's holding out for better trade offers while everything else explodes around him - that's the aspect of managing where he does his best work. If no other GMs bail him out? He's in a world of trouble and he hired a coach that is making his life much more difficult.

[Ruzious]

Brooklyn doesn't look like they're going to take a step up this season - just the opposite. They added some over the hill bigs with a little left in the tank, but they're all lousy fits, imo. Adding Millsap, James Johnson, and LMA to Blake Griffin... they're all so slow and play the same. It's not a half court game in the NBA. And Paddy Mills still has something left, but when he's your speed guy at 33 replacing Kyrie - it's just another example of them being old. As great as Harden is, he jogs all game - he never sprints - probably can't. Harris certainly doesn't add any speed. And Claxton's not strong enough to defend physical bigs. For a good team, Brooklyn's very unathletic.

[Ruzious]

Westbrook not looking good so far against GS. Anthony Davis and Lebron are so good, they can carry the Lakers for a while, but can they do it for a full season? They might have to - I'm not impressed with the rest of the Lakers roster.

[I_Like_Dirt]

Brooklyn doesn't look like they're going to take a step up this season - just the opposite. They added some over the hill bigs with a little left in the tank, but they're all lousy fits, imo. Adding Millsap, James Johnson, and LMA to Blake Griffin... they're all so slow and play the same. It's not a half court game in the NBA. And Paddy Mills still has something left, but when he's your speed guy at 33 replacing Kyrie - it's just another example of them being old. As great as Harden is, he jogs all game - he never sprints - probably can't. Harris certainly doesn't add any speed. And Claxton's not strong enough to defend physical bigs. For a good team, Brooklyn's very unathletic.

They really should play Bruce Brown more and letting Cam Thomas run a bit wouldn't hurt Durant and Harden. But they committed to all those old worn down bigs. They have a couple kids around that would give them a bit more life in the regular season and I'm curious how long it is before they let them play. Probably about 2 weeks before they have 3 or 4 injuries up front and have to try it.

That said, the Nets looked largely disinterested in the game. Not that the Bucks were pushing their hardest but I don't think they know how to stop caring the same way the Nets do. And the Bucks are tough no matter when or where.

[J-Ves]

Westbrook not looking good so far against GS. Anthony Davis and Lebron are so good, they can carry the Lakers for a while, but can they do it for a full season? They might have to - I'm not impressed with the rest of the Lakers roster.

To be out from under that contract feels so good. Westbrook was a decent fit here (unlike the terrible fit he is with the Lakers) but that contract for a player his age was a ticking time bomb

[nate33]

Ayton is not worth a **** max contract. Is he really that much better than, say, Clint Capela? 4-5 years and 80-110M should've been more than enough for him. Suns did the right thing but at the same time giving Landry Shamet +40M deal makes you wonder are they really that smart...

Ayton may be worth a max contract, but it's not such a no-brainer that Phoenix should give it to him now and take on the extra injury risk. If Ayton wanted the security of an extension, then he should have given a little money back. Instead of a max salary starting at $29M, he should have taken a deal starting at $25M or so.

I don't blame Ayton for betting on himself and waiting a year to get that max deal, but I also don't blame Phoenix for refusing to take on the injury risk for no benefit whatsoever.

I agree that the Shamet deal makes little sense. What do people see in that guy? He seems like a pretty average player to me.

[queridiculo]

John Collins deal should be the parameter for Ayton's and that's already pushing it.

His defensive impact doesn't make up for how limited he is offensively and you can't really tie yourself to players like him in today's NBA.

Throw the injury risk into the mix and it's a complete no-brainer.

Any team paying him the max will regret the decision.

[closg00]

ATL and Heurter's agent were patient and came to a 4-year $60M deal, this is what Bertan's should have gotten....and Heurter is the more versatile player.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

If you are familiar with my posts over the years you might recall that I was very huge on draft predictions back in the day. When I think about Jared Butler I actually remember the draft with Steph Curry. Jonny Floyd and Ricky Rubio were also in that draft....

(Make that Jonny Flynn not Jonny Floyd)

...Washington under a previous GM decided that one year of veterans Randy Foye and Mike Miller was their best move and opted not to draft either player.

Oh, it was way worse than that.

After all, even if you whiffed on Steph, you could at least have gotten Demar DeRozan (9). Or Jrue Holiday (17). Or Taj Gibson (26). Or Patrick Beverly (42). Or Danny Green (46).

Plus, you forgot to mention the name of the #2 pick in that draft. Anybody know it off hand? I do. He's my poster boy for how hard it is to pick accurately. Along with the guy who went #60 only 2 years later.

& it is that bad every single year. Take a look at 2010, when we got lucky & snagged the #1 pick. The first 8 picks that year were: John Wall, Evan Turner, Derrick Favors, Wesley Johnson, DeMarcus Cousins, Ekpe Udoh, Greg Monroe & Al Farouq Aminu.

Thing is... the guy taken 9th was better than all of them. & the 10th player taken was better than the guy taken 9th!

& who was the best player taken after that guy? You could make an argument that it was the guy who went #40. It sure wasn't the guy who went #12.

I'd be willing to bet there isn't a single person on this Board who can name all 4 of those players without looking online to see who they were.

...(Steph was THE NO BRAINER pick... This draft Jared Butler was the no brainer.

Butler might turn out great. One thing is for absolutely sure: past the #3 pick, the list of guys in order of how good they become will be almost completely unrelated to where they were chosen.

I really appreciate this kind of post but I am so busy and today has been a productive day. Pay it forward today I left $40 at Walmart for the guys in back of me. Long story short I appreciate your offer to pay it forward! Thank you for being there for me and encouragement and spirit even if I didn't take the money. Doc Lincoln as well

Things are going a whole lot better guys! God is so good. Thanks for your support and even when I say things are better days where I think THIS might be my last day.

That could be any of us in this pandemic.

All I am saying is that my life is slowly but surely becoming richer and fuller with a lot more fun! I am getting back to the way I used to be with the help of a lot of good doctors and just life circumstances improving

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[J-Ves]

If the Wizards' season goes south the storylines from the Westbrook experiment in LA and the whole Simmons thing in Philly will keep me entertained for a while. Normally I don't care much for the NBA outside of Wizards basketball, but this season has some yuicy drama.

I'm almost to the point of feeling bad for sixer fans but then I remember who I root for and I realize I'm the guy who should be receiving pity!

[gambitx777]

How long does ownership allow this to go one before they step in and force DM to move Ben to the highest bidder.

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[gambitx777]

Also can we have some apriciation for Tommy. Avoiding Westbrook drama and taking the Lakers lunch money on that trade. Sure we all wish we kept that first instead of trading back for Todd but **** look at the messes around the league and how theya re being so badly handled and look at how well Tommy did and how well we are managing potential Beal drama !

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[dckingsfan]

Of course Simmons is grown. But Embiid is sort of wrong. The word babysit mischaracterizes things a bit. The Sixers' job (especially management and coaching staff) is to build a function working team and they have failed to do that. Doing so might be as simple as just trading Simmons but they aren't doing that either.

Honestly, Embiid's attitude belies a managerial/coaching failure in allowing their star players to become so polarized. It's not something that normally happens on a lot of teams. It happened with Shaq and Kobe but they were a lot better than Embiid and Simmons and both won together and apart. More recently it happened with James Harden and Chris Paul and... that was Morey too...

These kinds of things can and do happen anywhere but they seem to happen a lot around Morey and Doc Rivers always seems to be struggling to live up to his reputation as a players coach and is more of a master of controversy and snatching defeat from the jaws of a 3-1 series lead.

There is loads of blame to go around and Simmons deserves his fair share. But there's far too much of it to lay at his feet. Morey was publicly trying to trade Simmons from the second he took the Sixers job. He built his work environment and he's living it now. He's an astute GM where trades are concerned but far less so at most everything else. Really it shouldn't be surprising that he's holding out for better trade offers while everything else explodes around him - that's the aspect of managing where he does his best work. If no other GMs bail him out? He's in a world of trouble and he hired a coach that is making his life much more difficult.

This is where I am at also. The initial issue lies in the relationship between Embiid/Rivers/Simmons - it deteriorated quickly. And now Morey/Paul have stepped into the mix to make it even uglier.

It is a mess that won't be resolved until Simmons is traded. Both Simmons and Morey are willing to blow up the season. This is awesome from a Wizard fan perspective.

And it does point out the weaknesses with both Rivers and Morey. Black eyes for both unless, as you point out, some GM bail him out.

[I_Like_Dirt]

Of course Simmons is grown. But Embiid is sort of wrong. The word babysit mischaracterizes things a bit. The Sixers' job (especially management and coaching staff) is to build a function working team and they have failed to do that. Doing so might be as simple as just trading Simmons but they aren't doing that either.

Honestly, Embiid's attitude belies a managerial/coaching failure in allowing their star players to become so polarized. It's not something that normally happens on a lot of teams. It happened with Shaq and Kobe but they were a lot better than Embiid and Simmons and both won together and apart. More recently it happened with James Harden and Chris Paul and... that was Morey too...

These kinds of things can and do happen anywhere but they seem to happen a lot around Morey and Doc Rivers always seems to be struggling to live up to his reputation as a players coach and is more of a master of controversy and snatching defeat from the jaws of a 3-1 series lead.

There is loads of blame to go around and Simmons deserves his fair share. But there's far too much of it to lay at his feet. Morey was publicly trying to trade Simmons from the second he took the Sixers job. He built his work environment and he's living it now. He's an astute GM where trades are concerned but far less so at most everything else. Really it shouldn't be surprising that he's holding out for better trade offers while everything else explodes around him - that's the aspect of managing where he does his best work. If no other GMs bail him out? He's in a world of trouble and he hired a coach that is making his life much more difficult.

This is where I am at also. The initial issue lies in the relationship between Embiid/Rivers/Simmons - it deteriorated quickly. And now Morey/Paul have stepped into the mix to make it even uglier.

It is a mess that won't be resolved until Simmons is traded. Both Simmons and Morey are willing to blow up the season. This is awesome from a Wizard fan perspective.

And it does point out the weaknesses with both Rivers and Morey. Black eyes for both unless, as you point out, some GM bail him out.

I think the initial issue may have been Embiid and Simmons but I think this quietly became a big issue when Morey was first hired and decided to very publicly get involved in Ben Simmons trade discussions. I get that players like Harden don't come along very often and there was a pre-existing relationship so he wanted to shoot his shot but that was never going to happen after the way he went out in Houston and the fact that he thought it might showed horrible judgment on his part.

Morey set to tone for his tenure with that impulsive move and the fallout afterwards strikes me as not particularly surprising given the other actors involved. It was already an organization with two entitled and immature stars coached by a coach who had a history of his own unnecessary conflicts. It needed some stability and care and instead Morey tried to forced his blueprint of getting two or three superstars together and ignoring everything else onto the team and the rest is history. He missed that the Raptors won a title with just one star and a carefully developed supporting cast and now appears to have missed the reality that the Bucks just did the same thing. Instead he wants to continue trying to build a Lebron superteam.

[dckingsfan]

Morey set to tone for his tenure with that impulsive move and the fallout afterwards strikes me as not particularly surprising given the other actors involved. It was already an organization with two entitled and immature stars coached by a coach who had a history of his own unnecessary conflicts. It needed some stability and care and instead Morey tried to forced his blueprint of getting two or three superstars together and ignoring everything else onto the team and the rest is history. He missed that the Raptors won a title with just one star and a carefully developed supporting cast and now appears to have missed the reality that the Bucks just did the same thing. Instead he wants to continue trying to build a Lebron superteam.

To me, this proves your point... now all we need is Simmons to come back and say - "yep, it may take me years to recover my confidence..."

https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/264508/Daryl-Morey-Claims-Hes-Prepared-To-Wait-Four-Years-To-Trade-Ben-Simmons

[I_Like_Dirt]

Morey set to tone for his tenure with that impulsive move and the fallout afterwards strikes me as not particularly surprising given the other actors involved. It was already an organization with two entitled and immature stars coached by a coach who had a history of his own unnecessary conflicts. It needed some stability and care and instead Morey tried to forced his blueprint of getting two or three superstars together and ignoring everything else onto the team and the rest is history. He missed that the Raptors won a title with just one star and a carefully developed supporting cast and now appears to have missed the reality that the Bucks just did the same thing. Instead he wants to continue trying to build a Lebron superteam.

To me, this proves your point... now all we need is Simmons to come back and say - "yep, it may take me years to recover my confidence..."

https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/264508/Daryl-Morey-Claims-Hes-Prepared-To-Wait-Four-Years-To-Trade-Ben-Simmons

Yeah, Morey likes to try to push things into yes/no situations. Things are cleaner and easier that way. If four years go by and he's busy trying to convince people that that really took the best shot he could... I expect a lot of people will buy that BS but it won't make it any less BS. All he's doing here is admitting that he has no intention of building much of anything and that he's going to wait until a superstar falls into his lap.

The kicker in all of this is that superstars are increasingly dictating where they will go and he's torched the bridge to the agent that represents a fair few superstars. The league may well go to bat for him behind the scenes yet but that's something that will take time and I'm not so sure they'll be all that enthusiastic about it after he inadvertently set China off and then may have followed that up with a scenario where he pushed the league to challenge medical protocols (he hasn't yet but I kinda think he's going to - Pop couldn't keep it quiet with Kawhi and Morey is no Pop).

[gambitx777]

I look for ownership to over rule DM sooner than later. They need to move Ben, Ben basically called DM's bluff and pulled the mental health card.

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[closg00]

I look for ownership to over rule DM sooner than later. They need to move Ben, Ben basically called DM's bluff and pulled the mental health card.

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Anyone know if the mental health out is a new card players are playing? I can't recall other examples

[nate33]

I look for ownership to over rule DM sooner than later. They need to move Ben, Ben basically called DM's bluff and pulled the mental health card.

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Anyone know if the mental health out is a new card players are playing? I can't recall other examples

Rui Hachimura?

Not that I mean that Rui is cynically "pulling the mental health card". But he is an example of a guy who is missing games for a mental health issue and still getting paid.

What Simmons seems to be doing is outrageous and contemptable. He is just trying to find a way to get paid without having to play, so he is fabricating a mental health issue where one doesn't exist.