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Discussing Other Teams' Moves - Part 7

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Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves - Part 7 

Post#881 » by gambitx777 » Sat Feb 22, 2020 9:19 pm

Glad EG isn't here or we would be claiming Keiff off waivers lol

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Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves - Part 7 

Post#882 » by long suffrin' boulez fan » Sat Feb 22, 2020 11:27 pm

gambitx777 wrote:Glad EG isn't here or we would be claiming Keiff off waivers lol

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Nah. It’s like a $6 cup of coffee. It’s only good if you pay more for it.

EG would have given up our lotto pick for that jolt.
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Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves - Part 7 

Post#883 » by Ruzious » Mon Feb 24, 2020 12:50 pm

We really should be trying to learn how Toronto's built their team. How many teams can lose Leonard and still be one of the top teams in the NBA? They destroyed a pretty good Indiana team last night. You don't get easy layups against them. They get 2-way players who are especially good defenders - with length and pressure and smarts.
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Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves - Part 7 

Post#884 » by nate33 » Mon Feb 24, 2020 1:02 pm

Ruzious wrote:We really should be trying to learn how Toronto's built their team. How many teams can lose Leonard and still be one of the top teams in the NBA? They destroyed a pretty good Indiana team last night. You don't get easy layups against them. They get 2-way players who are especially good defenders - with length and pressure and smarts.

It's like the Spurs. They somehow get guys and plug them into a system and it works. The question is, is it because they're consistently drafting unusually smart guys, or are they just really good at teaching ordinary guys to play smartly?

What's so beautiful about the Raptors is that they all defend and they all move the ball on offense. It really isn't more complicated than that.

I can't wait to be done with Brooks. I'll give him credit for somehow putting together a top tier offense, but he does it in a way that is so iso-heavy that it doesn't hold up in crunch time when players are tired and teams are locked in defensively.
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Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves - Part 7 

Post#885 » by payitforward » Mon Feb 24, 2020 2:36 pm

nate33 wrote:
Ruzious wrote:We really should be trying to learn how Toronto's built their team. How many teams can lose Leonard and still be one of the top teams in the NBA? They destroyed a pretty good Indiana team last night. You don't get easy layups against them. They get 2-way players who are especially good defenders - with length and pressure and smarts.

It's like the Spurs. They somehow get guys and plug them into a system and it works. The question is, is it because they're consistently drafting unusually smart guys, or are they just really good at teaching ordinary guys who to play smartly?...

Great discussion! Great question.

The Spurs have consistently acquired good players in the draft -- at no matter what pick position.

Are they simply better than everyone else at identifying the best talent available when they pick? Certainly looks that way.

Or is it that the Spurs have really effective coaching -- so the guys they pick may not start out better but they wind up better.

Good coaching should make a guy play better. But, can good coaching make a guy into a better player?

I recall that when the Spurs picked Kawhi & he was pretty good right away, people said things like "well, he wouldn't be that good on another team." Time passed, & it turned out that Kawhi became one of the very top players in the game.

Bryn Forbes, Dejounte Murray, Patty Mills.... There's so many of them! Seems obvious to me that they have the ability to find talent. They understand that it's distributed throughout the draft. A great FO.

nate33 wrote:What's so beautiful about the Raptors is that they all defend and they all move the ball on offense. It really isn't more complicated than that.

I can't wait to be done with Brooks. I'll give him credit for somehow putting together a top tier offense, but he does it in a way that is so iso-heavy that it doesn't hold up in crunch time when players are tired and teams are locked in defensively.

The Raptors are an EC version of the Spurs -- I mean... they even pass players back and forth!!

Again, a great FO.
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Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves - Part 7 

Post#886 » by I_Like_Dirt » Tue Feb 25, 2020 3:15 pm

nate33 wrote:I can't wait to be done with Brooks. I'll give him credit for somehow putting together a top tier offense, but he does it in a way that is so iso-heavy that it doesn't hold up in crunch time when players are tired and teams are locked in defensively.



I don't love Brooks but looking at the roster, you wouldn't expect there to generally be a crunch time in most games. There are a lot of really bad teams this season, though, I suppose. I don't think Brooks is a bad coach or anything, I just don't think he's a legitimately good coach in the sense that he makes a difference. I do like the groundwork that's been laid this season, however, and I feel like a lot of the changes the Wizards need revolve far more around management layers than coaching. You used the Raptors as an example and they turned things around great with Dwayne Casey as their coach. Ultimately they moved on for the better despite all the winning but a firm management team that knew what they wanted to do was able to get Casey to buy in for the most part, and then he went right back to being the same old coach he always was when the Pistons paid him. It's way more important for the Wizards to establish their team structure at this point than find a new coach. The coach is probably the last thing I'm worried about at this point.
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Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves - Part 7 

Post#887 » by nate33 » Tue Feb 25, 2020 3:29 pm

I_Like_Dirt wrote:
nate33 wrote:I can't wait to be done with Brooks. I'll give him credit for somehow putting together a top tier offense, but he does it in a way that is so iso-heavy that it doesn't hold up in crunch time when players are tired and teams are locked in defensively.



I don't love Brooks but looking at the roster, you wouldn't expect there to generally be a crunch time in most games. There are a lot of really bad teams this season, though, I suppose. I don't think Brooks is a bad coach or anything, I just don't think he's a legitimately good coach in the sense that he makes a difference. I do like the groundwork that's been laid this season, however, and I feel like a lot of the changes the Wizards need revolve far more around management layers than coaching. You used the Raptors as an example and they turned things around great with Dwayne Casey as their coach. Ultimately they moved on for the better despite all the winning but a firm management team that knew what they wanted to do was able to get Casey to buy in for the most part, and then he went right back to being the same old coach he always was when the Pistons paid him. It's way more important for the Wizards to establish their team structure at this point than find a new coach. The coach is probably the last thing I'm worried about at this point.

Good points. I have generally been supportive of Brooks. I consider him a "competent" coach. He isn't one of the few difference makers like Spo, Budd, Carlisle and Stevens, but he doesn't suck either.

But after almost 4 years, I am growing tired of what I'm seeing. The team has consistently been poor on defense, and at some point you have to look at the coach. Wittman got the Wall/Beal/Porter/Gortat crew to defend well, but Brooks never did. And now they're one of the worst defenses in history, albeit with lousy defensive personnel. I worry that there simply isn't enough effort and attention paid to defense and it will ultimately develop into some long term bad habits in our youngsters that can't be broken.

Offensively, Brooks has a track record of leveraging his best offensive players to maximize their talents (like with Westbrook and Durant), and he is doing so here with Beal and Bertans. But his offenses typically lack ball movement and involvement of the other players, which ultimately leads to stagnation and predictability. Oddly, our offense often looks best when our best players are hurt and the "lesser players" are empowered to move the ball and make more decisions. (I'm referring to our 4-3 run with Beal out, and the "everyone eats" period when Wall first went down.)

I'm just worried that Brooks' instincts are the exact opposite of what you want in an elite team. This team's character is to undervalue the importance of defense and to overly rely on our "stars" to generate offense. Both habits are bad and ultimately get snuffed out in playoff competition. It's the opposite of the Toronto model.
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Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves - Part 7 

Post#888 » by I_Like_Dirt » Tue Feb 25, 2020 4:21 pm

nate33 wrote:I'm just worried that Brooks' instincts are the exact opposite of what you want in an elite team. This team's character is to undervalue the importance of defense and to overly rely on our "stars" to generate offense. Both habits are bad and ultimately get snuffed out in playoff competition. It's the opposite of the Toronto model.


I agree with you on Brooks in general. He's not totally out of line with Casey in that sense. But the Toronto model was pretty clearly to wait until they had nailed down everything else before moving the coach. And when they did move the coach, they took their time about it. And the coach they wound up hiring was a guy they had groomed in-house during that time not totally unlike how they groom all their players in-house. To that end, the Wizards quietly added to their assistant coaching staff this offseason and I'm curious where they go from there. We don't get to see the progression, if any, on that end so it's tough to assess but I sort of suspect the Wizards have laid some of the groundwork to that end already.

What makes Toronto so successful is that they seem to approach the human side of their investments on every front. They don't treat players as disposable even though they have to trade them or cut them. They make sure they do right by them, giving their d-leaguers an opportunity to earn an NBA minimum contract which can be life-changing given the sums involved, or offering guaranteed money to undrafted free agents, or actually extending their players before they hit free agency or trading them to allow them to play more minutes if they weren't extended and are going to hit free agency. They've done it with coaching, as I mentioned, and they're doing it with scouting. Because of that, they've transitioned from a team of whiners and self-promoters that was pretty hard to cheer for to one that is hard to cheer against; something the Wizards seem to be trying to do this season. Check out this story about one of the Raptors' African scouts:

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/basketball/article-the-untold-story-of-sarah-chan-the-toronto-raptors-dynamic-new/
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Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves - Part 7 

Post#889 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Tue Feb 25, 2020 5:58 pm

:)

I was thinking about lamps from Home Depot... and then I read this post.

I'm the biggest DeMarcus Cousins fan but that ship has sailed. Just say no to Boogie. Too injured and too many promising young guys on this team who are on rookie deals to go that direction.
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long suffrin' boulez fan wrote:Sign Boogie. Why not?

Because he can't guard a lamp post.


In all fairness, some of these lamp posts coming out of Eastern Europe are better than they used to be.


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Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves - Part 7 

Post#890 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Tue Feb 25, 2020 6:03 pm

Is Dave Joerger coaching?

This is a really great post by the way. I think Brooks is fine for now. I love the comparison you made with Toronto but what they did was they got Kawhi Leonard. Nick Nurse is proving to be a winning coach so far. Pascal Siakam and Fred Van Vleet and of course the guys who have been there awhile like Lowry are getting it done.

The Wizards under Tommy Shepherd have a lot of guys who should be trending upward in the next few seasons. Is Scott Brooks the one over the long haul or is he like Casey?
I_Like_Dirt wrote:
nate33 wrote:I'm just worried that Brooks' instincts are the exact opposite of what you want in an elite team. This team's character is to undervalue the importance of defense and to overly rely on our "stars" to generate offense. Both habits are bad and ultimately get snuffed out in playoff competition. It's the opposite of the Toronto model.


I agree with you on Brooks in general. He's not totally out of line with Casey in that sense. But the Toronto model was pretty clearly to wait until they had nailed down everything else before moving the coach. And when they did move the coach, they took their time about it. And the coach they wound up hiring was a guy they had groomed in-house during that time not totally unlike how they groom all their players in-house. To that end, the Wizards quietly added to their assistant coaching staff this offseason and I'm curious where they go from there. We don't get to see the progression, if any, on that end so it's tough to assess but I sort of suspect the Wizards have laid some of the groundwork to that end already.

What makes Toronto so successful is that they seem to approach the human side of their investments on every front. They don't treat players as disposable even though they have to trade them or cut them. They make sure they do right by them, giving their d-leaguers an opportunity to earn an NBA minimum contract which can be life-changing given the sums involved, or offering guaranteed money to undrafted free agents, or actually extending their players before they hit free agency or trading them to allow them to play more minutes if they weren't extended and are going to hit free agency. They've done it with coaching, as I mentioned, and they're doing it with scouting. Because of that, they've transitioned from a team of whiners and self-promoters that was pretty hard to cheer for to one that is hard to cheer against; something the Wizards seem to be trying to do this season. Check out this story about one of the Raptors' African scouts:

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/basketball/article-the-untold-story-of-sarah-chan-the-toronto-raptors-dynamic-new/


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(Unless they move up in the top to draft Wiseman/Okongwu)

JALEN SMITH and either Xavier Tillman, Paul Reed, Udoka Azubuike, or TYLER BEY (if they get lucky and he slips in the draft).
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Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves - Part 7 

Post#891 » by I_Like_Dirt » Tue Feb 25, 2020 7:22 pm

Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:Is Dave Joerger coaching?

This is a really great post by the way. I think Brooks is fine for now. I love the comparison you made with Toronto but what they did was they got Kawhi Leonard. Nick Nurse is proving to be a winning coach so far. Pascal Siakam and Fred Van Vleet and of course the guys who have been there awhile like Lowry are getting it done.

The Wizards under Tommy Shepherd have a lot of guys who should be trending upward in the next few seasons. Is Scott Brooks the one over the long haul or is he like Casey?



The Raptors got Leonard much later in the game, though. Masai came in and worked with what he had, turning a perennial loser around while keeping the faces of the franchise at the time (DeRozan, Lowry and Valanciunas) and the coach (Casey) in place for the time being. He did it b7 setting players in positions to succeed rather than fail. And yeah, they were a laughed at a fair bit while they lost to Lebron every year coming off losses to the Wizards and Nets, but everyone except occasionally the Warriors was losing to Lebron at that time and there's a bit difference between winning ~33 games every year and winning 48+ games every year. And in the meanwhile, he added players and coaches that would eventually supplant them, simply being patient and not rushing things and given everyone involved time to succeed, make a solid living and land on their feet if need be.

Not every rebuild is going to have the kinds of immediate results the Raptors had. Masai is good but a lot of that was luck as much as anything. I have no clue if what the Wizards are doing are good moves or not but the general practice seems to make sense thus far. The team certainly seems to be headed in the right direction now. Maybe in a few years, the Wizards will be in a position to trade for their own Kawhi. How long before Zion becomes frustrated with the Pelicans?
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Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves - Part 7 

Post#892 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Wed Feb 26, 2020 9:36 pm

I_Like_Dirt wrote:
Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:Is Dave Joerger coaching?

This is a really great post by the way. I think Brooks is fine for now. I love the comparison you made with Toronto but what they did was they got Kawhi Leonard. Nick Nurse is proving to be a winning coach so far. Pascal Siakam and Fred Van Vleet and of course the guys who have been there awhile like Lowry are getting it done.

The Wizards under Tommy Shepherd have a lot of guys who should be trending upward in the next few seasons. Is Scott Brooks the one over the long haul or is he like Casey?



The Raptors got Leonard much later in the game, though. Masai came in and worked with what he had, turning a perennial loser around while keeping the faces of the franchise at the time (DeRozan, Lowry and Valanciunas) and the coach (Casey) in place for the time being. He did it b7 setting players in positions to succeed rather than fail. And yeah, they were a laughed at a fair bit while they lost to Lebron every year coming off losses to the Wizards and Nets, but everyone except occasionally the Warriors was losing to Lebron at that time and there's a bit difference between winning ~33 games every year and winning 48+ games every year. And in the meanwhile, he added players and coaches that would eventually supplant them, simply being patient and not rushing things and given everyone involved time to succeed, make a solid living and land on their feet if need be.

Not every rebuild is going to have the kinds of immediate results the Raptors had. Masai is good but a lot of that was luck as much as anything. I have no clue if what the Wizards are doing are good moves or not but the general practice seems to make sense thus far. The team certainly seems to be headed in the right direction now. Maybe in a few years, the Wizards will be in a position to trade for their own Kawhi. How long before Zion becomes frustrated with the Pelicans?


:nod:

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JALEN SMITH and either Xavier Tillman, Paul Reed, Udoka Azubuike, or TYLER BEY (if they get lucky and he slips in the draft).
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Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves - Part 7 

Post#893 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Wed Feb 26, 2020 9:38 pm

Zion's not going anywhere; but, Brandon Ingram or whatever might be a dubious fit around DISGRUNTLED IF THAT EVER HAPPENS IN NOLA Zion...could be shopped.

It's no harm in dreaming of Zion as a Wizards player. Four, five, six years from now? Sure. He gains weight, definitely.
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(Unless they move up in the top to draft Wiseman/Okongwu)

JALEN SMITH and either Xavier Tillman, Paul Reed, Udoka Azubuike, or TYLER BEY (if they get lucky and he slips in the draft).
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Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves - Part 7 

Post#894 » by gambitx777 » Sun Mar 1, 2020 12:06 am

Game to watch tonight. Bull. Vs Knicks and nets and heat . Both are relevant to our play off dreams .

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Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves - Part 7 

Post#895 » by gambitx777 » Sun Mar 1, 2020 4:36 am

Bulls , magic and nets all lost.

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Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves - Part 7 

Post#896 » by payitforward » Mon Mar 9, 2020 2:27 pm

Read on Twitter

We talked a lot about Jontay in the run up to the '18 draft. I'm glad to see him get a shot in the league. He must have looked good in workouts to get a multi-year deal! Hope his knees hold up. If so, this will be one more extraordinarily great move by the Grizzlies FO.
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Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves - Part 7 

Post#897 » by closg00 » Tue Mar 10, 2020 9:38 pm

payitforward wrote:
Read on Twitter

We talked a lot about Jontay in the run up to the '18 draft. I'm glad to see him get a shot in the league. He must have looked good in workouts to get a multi-year deal! Hope his knees hold up. If so, this will be one more extraordinarily great move by the Grizzlies FO.


Interesting that both Jontay and his brother Michael have been felled by injuries before playing a minute of NBA ball, team-option one the 2nd year so not much of a risk.
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Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves - Part 7 

Post#898 » by closg00 » Sat Mar 14, 2020 5:20 pm

Aspirational goals
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Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves - Part 7 

Post#899 » by Ruzious » Sat Mar 14, 2020 6:02 pm

Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:Zion's not going anywhere; but, Brandon Ingram or whatever might be a dubious fit around DISGRUNTLED IF THAT EVER HAPPENS IN NOLA Zion...could be shopped.

It's no harm in dreaming of Zion as a Wizards player. Four, five, six years from now? Sure. He gains weight, definitely.

I kept saying last season on Ingram - look how he did the last several games before he got injured last season - that's likely what he'll be next season - don't just look at his season's stats. Well, that's how it's turning out. He doesn't have the crazy potential that Zion has, but he's really good.
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Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves - Part 7 

Post#900 » by payitforward » Sat Mar 14, 2020 6:58 pm

You were right -- don't let it happen again! :)

Ingram had a great year scoring. Until this year he'd never shot the 3 in volume & overall he hadn't been a good 3-point shooter either. Plus, he'd been a pretty bad from the line. This year, he shot a lot of 3's & at a high clip -- plus he got to the line 7 times per 40 minutes & suddenly zoomed to 85.8% there!

Deserves a lot of credit! (...you too...!)
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