Political Roundtable Part XXIV

[stilldropin20]

if this came from Cohen, muller has already had the info for 3-4 months. Cohen sat with Mueller's team 3-4 months ago for over 40-50 hours total. If Cohen waited to disclose this last night?? then Mueller would thing Cohen has been uncooperative.

So Mueller has had this for 3-4 months and Trump is still in office.

So the problem is and reamins that this is Cohen's word against trump. A convicted fellon who has previously lied to investigators while under oath who is now attempting to save his own hide. So clearly there is NO corrobarating evidence. Which you guys already know. There's no there there. And still no there there.

and of course this came from buzzfeed who published the steele report which (was oppo research) as state department fact.

all of this uncorroborated undocumented innuendo and likely a bunch of lies. If you get documents let's see them and get on with the impeachment.

[closg00]

If Mueller can prove that Trump directed his lawyer to lie under oath to congress then I think he should get that information to the Justice Dept. right away. That certainly fits the "high crimes and misdemeanor" threshold for impeachment. For the good of the country the whole process should be expedited, and if we're lucky maybe Trump would agree to resign (in return for a grant of immunity of some sort). Putting the country through a year long impeachment process would be painful and should be avoided unless there is no other alternative. Of course R's would have to convince Trump that there is no way he will be allowed to finish his term in office.

Hopefully Cohen has tapes of this, if he does, it's Impeachment time. There are multiple roads that lead to Trumps impeachment.

[dobrojim]

[snip]
And if Trump refuses to resign there might actually be enough Republicans with the courage to vote him out, and more and more over time as more stuff comes oozing out.

One might hope that acts of treason would provide sufficient incentive.
It can't have escaped notice that all our historic allies and adversaries
have reversed roles under Trump's leadership.

[Pointgod]

If Mueller can prove that Trump directed his lawyer to lie under oath to congress then I think he should get that information to the Justice Dept. right away. That certainly fits the "high crimes and misdemeanor" threshold for impeachment. For the good of the country the whole process should be expedited, and if we're lucky maybe Trump would agree to resign (in return for a grant of immunity of some sort). Putting the country through a year long impeachment process would be painful and should be avoided unless there is no other alternative. Of course R's would have to convince Trump that there is no way he will be allowed to finish his term in office.

Hopefully Cohen has tapes of this, if he does, it's Impeachment time. There are multiple roads that lead to Trumps impeachment.

It’s no just Cohens word. There’s multiple sources from the Trump organization, emails and documents to corroborate. Probably even a recording because we know Cohen likes to tape his conversations. Trump is guilty as sin and this is just one of the many crimes that he’s guilty of. And the reason we don’t know any of this sooner is that Republicans in Congress decided to protect Trump instead of doing their constitutional duty. I’m looking forward to Cohen singing like Diana Ross when he testifies to Congress.

[closg00]

If Mueller can prove that Trump directed his lawyer to lie under oath to congress then I think he should get that information to the Justice Dept. right away. That certainly fits the "high crimes and misdemeanor" threshold for impeachment. For the good of the country the whole process should be expedited, and if we're lucky maybe Trump would agree to resign (in return for a grant of immunity of some sort). Putting the country through a year long impeachment process would be painful and should be avoided unless there is no other alternative. Of course R's would have to convince Trump that there is no way he will be allowed to finish his term in office.

Upon further reading on this, there IS documentation in the way of txt messages and other proof that Trump directed Cohen to lie.

SD20's head is going to explode when all of Trump's "deniabilty" excuses, have all dried-up. After-all, when Cohen was lying, who benefitted from his lying, it was Trump. Cohen was negotiating on-behalf of Trump with the Russians, not himself.

[dckingsfan]

Mueller can’t refer potential charges or evidence directly to congress therefore it must go through DOJ before it can be used in an impeachment proceeding (at least that’s my understanding). Having Trump continue as head of govt during a year long impeachment could be a very risky proposition and expose the country to unnecessary risks (wag the dog, etc.). Better IMO to get him out as soon as possible even if some form of immunity is required.

Well that's an interesting point. Even if we know for sure there's no way in hell the Senate will vote to actually remove him from office, the process itself will be long and painful, particularly since my sense is there is a lot of crimes to discuss. So maybe Dems should take a page from Trump's playbook and threaten to set the country on fire.

And if Trump refuses to resign there might actually be enough Republicans with the courage to vote him out, and more and more over time as more stuff comes oozing out.

Therein lies the problem. It is also why this process has taken so long. The investigation has to be completed before it can be referred to the DOJ. And then the DOJ needs to determine if it should be sent to congress. My guess (completely unsubstantiated) is that Mueller is ready to move to the next step. He is still in the middle of the investigation.

And therein lies the solution, if a threat that it would happen might move us forward.The question is if the Rs are willing to proactively go to Trump and say, "if this looks bad for you, we are going to vote the way of impeachment." And would that be enough to get the very stubborn first liar to step down.

[I_Like_Dirt]

And therein lies the solution, if a threat that it would happen might move us forward.The question is if the Rs are willing to proactively go to Trump and say, "if this looks bad for you, we are going to vote the way of impeachment." And would that be enough to get the very stubborn first liar to step down.

It won't be. If Trump steps down, he loses all the protections the presidency effectively offers him. The longer he waits this out, the harder it becomes to really go after him. It's probably his best hope at this point, as far as I can tell, unless, as popper suggests, he's offered immunity, which would be an eye-opening political move that would be a rather problematic precedent to set - though one I'm sure Republicans would consider since he was still elected on their ticket and it would effectively allow them to let him off the hook while keeping the presidency for themselves.

No, Trump will go to twitter and mass his supporters to turn on everyone in the Republican Party. It's the nuclear option there. They aren't going to be brave enough for that kind of thing. And at least a handful of them, if not more, are clearly complicit in this kind of thing so there is always going to be a certain divide there regardless. He would put those politicians on blast and dare them to try to ride it out. And given how high his support still is within the party, and how devoted his supporters actually are, there is a rather small chance that anyone who went against him would actually survive long enough to still be around when the dust settled and actually be in a position to rise again above all the other vultures that will be circling.

[dckingsfan]

And therein lies the solution, if a threat that it would happen might move us forward.The question is if the Rs are willing to proactively go to Trump and say, "if this looks bad for you, we are going to vote the way of impeachment." And would that be enough to get the very stubborn first liar to step down.

It won't be. If Trump steps down, he loses all the protections the presidency effectively offers him. The longer he waits this out, the harder it becomes to really go after him. It's probably his best hope at this point, as far as I can tell, unless, as popper suggests, he's offered immunity, which would be an eye-opening political move that would be a rather problematic precedent to set - though one I'm sure Republicans would consider since he was still elected on their ticket and it would effectively allow them to let him off the hook while keeping the presidency for themselves.

No, Trump will go to twitter and mass his supporters to turn on everyone in the Republican Party. It's the nuclear option there. They aren't going to be brave enough for that kind of thing. And at least a handful of them, if not more, are clearly complicit in this kind of thing so there is always going to be a certain divide there regardless. He would put those politicians on blast and dare them to try to ride it out. And given how high his support still is within the party, and how devoted his supporters actually are, there is a rather small chance that anyone who went against him would actually survive long enough to still be around when the dust settled and actually be in a position to rise again above all the other vultures that will be circling.

Immunity can be offered anywhere during the process up until the last day of his presidency. If you start with that premise and understand the process that Mueller needs to follow, then it follows that the Rs in the Senate can flip whenever they want.

[TGW]

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[Doug_Blew]

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How many people make over $10 million in a year? And those that do would create shell corporations or some other mechanism sheltering them from paying 70% on whatever they make over the 10 mil mark.

[Wizardspride]

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[dobrojim]

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How many people make over $10 million in a year? And those that do would create shell corporations or some other mechanism sheltering them from paying 70% on whatever they make over the 10 mil mark.

Not that I necessarily favor a marginal top rate of 70% but I do grow wearisome
of arguments that the rich will never pay because of loopholes etc.
Same thing about corporations sending their money overseas.
The only reason that is possible is because we allow it to be possible.

To me this is to argue that no legislation is ever possible to raise
significant monies. I believe sufficient political will is the only
real essential requirement. Once you have that, many previously
unthinkable things become possible. AOC is pushing the envelope/window.
We need this.

[pancakes3]

additionally, the policy concerns of the tax rate really isn't "how do we physically, actually, get our hands on the money" but rather implementing this statute would signal to corporations/employers of how they should be allocating their money.

it's important to draw the distinction on income v. wealth. marginal 70% tax rates doesn't empower the IRS to go into bill gates's bank account and pull money so the government can spend it. what it does do is give CBS pause when they're looking to pay les moonves a $120 million golden parachute, or make JP Morgan think twice about paying jamie diamon $30 mil a year. it effectively puts a cap on on salaries, forcing companies to reinvest, or trickle down.

tax shelters (mostly protecting the transfer/rearranging of money, rather than generating money) is largely untouched by tax rates.

it's not the best policy out there for wealth distribution, and fundamentally it is still trickle-down, so arguably it's republican in nature (at least in the way that i'm framing it in this post). however, it does set the tone, policy-wise, and shine a spotlight on the fact that wage disparity is an issue in this country, and needs to be addressed.

[Pointgod]

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How many people make over $10 million in a year? And those that do would create shell corporations or some other mechanism sheltering them from paying 70% on whatever they make over the 10 mil mark.

Not that I necessarily favor a marginal top rate of 70% but I do grow wearisome
of arguments that the rich will never pay because of loopholes etc.
Same thing about corporations sending their money overseas.
The only reason that is possible is because we allow it to be possible.

To me this is to argue that no legislation is ever possible to raise
significant monies. I believe sufficient political will is the only
real essential requirement. Once you have that, many previously
unthinkable things become possible. AOC is pushing the envelope/window.
We need this.

Well look at the actual numbers of what AOC proposed.

https://taxfoundation.org/70-percent-tax-initial-analysis/

So the proposal nets 700 billion over 10 years which would be a far cry from the trillions needed for a green new deal or Medicare for all. Unless the US plans on going into more debt to pay for these programs (which is an option) then you’ll have to go after various sources of income and loopholes need to be close because wealthy people aren’t stupid and have access to the best tax lawayers and accountants money can buy.

It will probably require a combination of taxes that requires more than just taxing those making over 10 million. AOC isn’t an economist so I don’t expect a thought out plan but she’s pushed the issue to the forefront. People just need to actually consider the issue from multiple angles and look at how to actually get it done.

[dckingsfan]

Just floating out 70 percent is just demagoguing. It should move closer to 80 percent approval rating over time - because you are going after the top quintile. And I understand growing weary of "the rich will never pay because of loopholes" but it is true. It is the tax code that is unfair it isn't the rates. And Pointgod nailed it when he said that rate bump won't come close to paying for the programs they are proposing. Hence why they don't want PAYGO - they want to print money to pay for the programs.

And they want the loopholes as long as they work for programs they want.

If they were really serious about fairness - they would address the tax code - all I hear is crickets on that...

[popper]

So now the special councels office says the buzzfeed story as it relates to documentary evidence corroborating Cohens assertion is inaccurate. Buzzfeed continues to diminish their credibility and it’s a disservice to the ideal of a free and honest press.

[stilldropin20]

so Mueller doesn't say a word for almost 2 years...which has led to all kinds of innuendo on the part of CNN, MSNBC and everyone else...and Mueller finally has a word to say...and it completely debunks the entire Buzzfeed pile of crap!!


Its so bad even buzzfeed has to back off.

FFN!! (fake flunking news!!)

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[Wizardspride]

so Mueller doesn't say a word for almost 2 years...which has led to all kinds of innuendo on the part of CNN, MSNBC and everyone else...and Mueller finally has a word to say...and it completely debunks the entire Buzzfeed pile of crap!!


Its so bad even buzzfeed has to back off.

FFN!! (fake flunking news!!)

Read on Twitter

Personally, I think that's a weak denial but I'll accept it.

[Fairview4Life]

so Mueller doesn't say a word for almost 2 years...which has led to all kinds of innuendo on the part of CNN, MSNBC and everyone else...and Mueller finally has a word to say...and it completely debunks the entire Buzzfeed pile of crap!!


Its so bad even buzzfeed has to back off.

FFN!! (fake flunking news!!)

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No argument from me on this one.

But it doesn’t completely debunk the entire report. It was extremely narrow and carefully worded and could basically mean anything.

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[Pointgod]

so Mueller doesn't say a word for almost 2 years...which has led to all kinds of innuendo on the part of CNN, MSNBC and everyone else...and Mueller finally has a word to say...and it completely debunks the entire Buzzfeed pile of crap!!


Its so bad even buzzfeed has to back off.

FFN!! (fake flunking news!!)

Read on Twitter

No argument from me on this one.

But it doesn’t completely debunk the entire report. It was extremely narrow and carefully worded and could basically mean anything.

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I mean none of this matters unless either buzz feed completely made up their sources or the sources are lying. Watch a couple weeks from now this will be corroborated. We know Cohen lies to Congress and we know that he wouldn’t do that on his own unless he’s a complete idiot (which is debatable). We know Trump and his family are lying, treasonous criminals. It’s only a mattter of time until it all comes out.