Political Roundtable Part XXV

[dobrojim]

The public might be more interested if and when the substance of
the M report is widely known. Right now there is a large cadre of
people who have been successfully propagandized by Barr and
Trump TV that they think this is just normal partisanship.

[popper]

The public might be more interested if and when the substance of
the M report is widely known. Right now there is a large cadre of
people who have been successfully propagandized by Barr and
Trump TV that they think this is just normal partisanship.

My wife and I and most of our friends who are conservative think Trump is juvenile and unsavory (to put it politely). We have no doubt he's got skeletons in the closet and that his shortcomings are many and varied. I hope D's nominate someone who can attract the votes of independents and conservatives alike. The five leading contenders at this point don't do it for me. I want to learn more about Yang (I think that's his name) and the rich guy from MD however.

[dobrojim]

No true conservative should support Trump and many conservatives formerly
considered highly principled by the GOP writ large (but persona non grata) are now horrified by
virtually every aspect of Trumpism. It's hard to imagine any candidate broadly popular enough
to win the nomination being less dangerous to the future of our country than Trump.
I don't think it's that unreasonable to believe that he could try to forcefully remain
in office even if he were to lose the 2020 election in a landslide. It's not hard to
envision him inventing some pretense to try to ignore the result. He has great
admiration for other world leaders who have done similar things. I'm not saying
I think that /will/ happen. But TBH, it could happen. The question would then
become what would the civil authorities do.

[pancakes3]

no offense popper, and while i appreciate the lip service being paid of being turned off by Trump, but it speaks volumes that you: (1) are tired of the impeachment/obstruction talk and want it to move on without being equally if not more turned off by Trump still hyping up "lock her up" talk in 2019, and (2) recognize that Trump is a bad candidate and yet still can't manage to hold your nose and vote Dem because somehow that would be an ideological betrayal of the republican party.

Trump is bad for America, full stop. these immigration policies are garbage. emboldening fringe Republicans like the religious right and racists under the banner of "conservative judges" and "social conservatism" is bad. the trade war is bad. even the tax cut was bad. none of what this administration + congress did touched on infrastructure, balancing the budget, curbing spending, protecting civil liberties, fostering entrepeneurship, etc.

it's all a spineless mismash of pandering towards disenfranchised white people, targeting hispanics, the chinese, and coastal elites as the source of societal ills for flyover whites and it's tearing this country apart.

Like, what exactly is so appealing about Trump to you as a candidate other than he's got (R) next to his name on the ballot? How is he attracting your vote, substantively? Or are you just voting pavlolianly, out of instinct and inertia?

[gtn130]

My wife and I and most of our friends who are conservative think Trump is juvenile and unsavory (to put it politely). We have no doubt he's got skeletons in the closet and that his shortcomings are many and varied. I hope D's nominate someone who can attract the votes of independents and conservatives alike. The five leading contenders at this point don't do it for me. I want to learn more about Yang (I think that's his name) and the rich guy from MD however.

Nobody believes this. You're voting for Trump no matter what.

Every single suburban Republican goes through this exact same civility script - they hate Trump's awful tone, but their hand is forced because the Dems are just so unreasonable!! Popper, you agree with basically all of his policies, but you want him to stop tweeting and saying the quiet parts loud. We get it.

[TGW]

The fake resistance can drop the impeachment talk; it's not happening. Senate is majority republican, and they have to sign off on impeachment. Pelosi is ineffective and corrupt, but she's not crazy; she knows impeachment is an uphill battle and it'll die in the Senate.

Watch on YouTube

[popper]

My wife and I and most of our friends who are conservative think Trump is juvenile and unsavory (to put it politely). We have no doubt he's got skeletons in the closet and that his shortcomings are many and varied. I hope D's nominate someone who can attract the votes of independents and conservatives alike. The five leading contenders at this point don't do it for me. I want to learn more about Yang (I think that's his name) and the rich guy from MD however.

Nobody believes this. You're voting for Trump no matter what.

Every single suburban Republican goes through this exact same civility script - they hate Trump's awful tone, but their hand is forced because the Dems are just so unreasonable!! Popper, you agree with basically all of his policies, but you want him to stop tweeting and saying the quiet parts loud. We get it.

You’re partially correct. I’d like to replace Trump with someone more sophisticated and mature but continue our policies of confronting China, N Korea, Russia and Iran (among other policies I agree with). Give me a Jim Webb or Blumberg and I’ll most certainly vote D.

[Zonkerbl]

c'mon Popper we all know you're ex union. Vote for Sanders.

[popper]

no offense popper, and while i appreciate the lip service being paid of being turned off by Trump, but it speaks volumes that you: (1) are tired of the impeachment/obstruction talk and want it to move on without being equally if not more turned off by Trump still hyping up "lock her up" talk in 2019, and (2) recognize that Trump is a bad candidate and yet still can't manage to hold your nose and vote Dem because somehow that would be an ideological betrayal of the republican party.

Trump is bad for America, full stop. these immigration policies are garbage. emboldening fringe Republicans like the religious right and racists under the banner of "conservative judges" and "social conservatism" is bad. the trade war is bad. even the tax cut was bad. none of what this administration + congress did touched on infrastructure, balancing the budget, curbing spending, protecting civil liberties, fostering entrepeneurship, etc.

it's all a spineless mismash of pandering towards disenfranchised white people, targeting hispanics, the chinese, and coastal elites as the source of societal ills for flyover whites and it's tearing this country apart.

Like, what exactly is so appealing about Trump to you as a candidate other than he's got (R) next to his name on the ballot? How is he attracting your vote, substantively? Or are you just voting pavlolianly, out of instinct and inertia?

You’ve drawn a lot of conclusions that I disagree with Pancakes. You’ve not going to change your outlook no matter what I say. I’ll fade back into the underbrush now and let you guys carry on. If this thread is any indication of wider voter attitudes then you’ve only got 18 more months of villainy to endure. That should give you and others here some hope for brighter days.

[Zonkerbl]

I think if we're going to utterly destroy the GOP it won't be by winning over people like Popper, although that would be a bonus. We have to adopt Karl Rove's strategy of getting the hardcore supporters fired up and out the door to vote. The GOP voters are gone. They're brainwashed. They don't deserve our time and it is not worth it for us to waste time trying to persuade them. We have to serve our core constituency, first and foremost. African Americans, particularly women. And what they want is impeachment.

[dckingsfan]

I think if we're going to utterly destroy the GOP it won't be by winning over people like Popper, although that would be a bonus. We have to adopt Karl Rove's strategy of getting the hardcore supporters fired up and out the door to vote. The GOP voters are gone. They're brainwashed. They don't deserve our time and it is not worth it for us to waste time trying to persuade them. We have to serve our core constituency, first and foremost. African Americans, particularly women. And what they want is impeachment.

I would love if there was an actual +/- on this strategy. One opinion/strategy is we should go hard left + impeachment. One opinion/strategy is that we go centrist + no impeachment.

Guess it doesn't matter since it will be settled in the primaries - but I would fivethirtyeight to do an in-depth analysis of this.

[Wizardspride]

Read on Twitter

?s=19

[pancakes3]

no offense popper, and while i appreciate the lip service being paid of being turned off by Trump, but it speaks volumes that you: (1) are tired of the impeachment/obstruction talk and want it to move on without being equally if not more turned off by Trump still hyping up "lock her up" talk in 2019, and (2) recognize that Trump is a bad candidate and yet still can't manage to hold your nose and vote Dem because somehow that would be an ideological betrayal of the republican party.

Trump is bad for America, full stop. these immigration policies are garbage. emboldening fringe Republicans like the religious right and racists under the banner of "conservative judges" and "social conservatism" is bad. the trade war is bad. even the tax cut was bad. none of what this administration + congress did touched on infrastructure, balancing the budget, curbing spending, protecting civil liberties, fostering entrepeneurship, etc.

it's all a spineless mismash of pandering towards disenfranchised white people, targeting hispanics, the chinese, and coastal elites as the source of societal ills for flyover whites and it's tearing this country apart.

Like, what exactly is so appealing about Trump to you as a candidate other than he's got (R) next to his name on the ballot? How is he attracting your vote, substantively? Or are you just voting pavlolianly, out of instinct and inertia?

You’ve drawn a lot of conclusions that I disagree with Pancakes. You’ve not going to change your outlook no matter what I say. I’ll fade back into the underbrush now and let you guys carry on. If this thread is any indication of wider voter attitudes then you’ve only got 18 more months of villainy to endure. That should give you and others here some hope for brighter days.

Sorry Popper, this isn't an "agree to disagree" situation. I actually have changed my political outlook. I once identified as Republican on the virtues of small government and personal liberties, but have changed my stance based on how Republican leadership has behaved - because my beliefs and values go beyond superficial party affiliation. Trump is bad, bro.

And furthermore, you really haven't said much of anything, much less convincing. When you say that the "five leading contenders at this point don't do it for me" but you are open to a different Dem nominee, you're making a judgment based on a candidate's personality, not platform. That, or you're lying, and you're going to vote R because of course you are.

P.S. it's not just "us" NeverTrumps that have 18 months of villainy to endure, it's you too. It's not just us living in dark days, you are as well. It's your country that's committing to fossil fuels, rebranded as "Freedom Gas" and exasperating global warming. Trump's EPA has undone regulations that prevent coal sludge, pesticides, and heavy metals from being dumped into public waterways. [Carcinogenic] Coal Ash can once again be sold as aggregate, and used to landscape golf courses and playgrounds. Trump has also effectively killed the solar industry in America thanks to 30% tariffs on solar panels. Home-placed solar panels is literally free energy, regardless of your stance on global warming, and now it's cost prohibitive.

Thanks to Trump, it's now easier for Banks to force arbitration and bypass litigation, specifically costly class action litigation, and re-engage in pre-2008 predatory practices. Trump has made the world a more dangerous place in pulling out of the Arms Trade Treaty, allowing gun manufacturers to more easily and freely sell guns to countries with poor human rights records. Trump is the first President since FDR to not have a White House science advisor. Thanks to Trump, the nation is hurtled ever deeper into debt.

These are bad policies that are objectively awful for any president regardless of party, so when you say that you remain unconvinced that there's a better candidate, I have to wonder what the f you're talking about.

[Wizardspride]

Read on Twitter

?s=19

[Pointgod]

I think if we're going to utterly destroy the GOP it won't be by winning over people like Popper, although that would be a bonus. We have to adopt Karl Rove's strategy of getting the hardcore supporters fired up and out the door to vote. The GOP voters are gone. They're brainwashed. They don't deserve our time and it is not worth it for us to waste time trying to persuade them. We have to serve our core constituency, first and foremost. African Americans, particularly women. And what they want is impeachment.

Exactly. I for one second don’t think that people like Popper would ever vote for a Democrat. Republicans simply don’t care about anything except getting “wins” for their party. I already know how they’ll blame Democrats if they don’t impeach. Once Trumps out of the office and facing indictments, Republicans will lament Democrats for not doing their constitutional duty and putting politics over the country (they’ll conveniently ignore that the Senate and Republicans in Congress are doing the same **** thing right now!). So they’ll just continue to vote Republican because they truly don’t give a damn about country, morality or being hypocrites. And I’m fine with that, just don’t pretend like anything matters other than repping the R.

[pancakes3]

When it comes to a baker refusing to cater a gay wedding, it's the landmark religious freedom case of the century.

When it comes to putting out water for migrants because a man cannot in good Christian conscience allow migrants and children to die in the desert, the religious right is predictably and suspiciously silent.

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2019/may/28/scott-daniel-warren-border-activist-faces-trial-ai/

cruelty is the point.

[pancakes3]

meanwhile, Trump's approval rating is soaring. what a country.

https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/446347-trumps-approval-rating-hits-highest-point-in-two-years

[Zonkerbl]

meanwhile, Trump's approval rating is soaring. what a country.

https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/446347-trumps-approval-rating-hits-highest-point-in-two-years

Counterpoint:
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/president_trump_job_approval-6179.html

[popper]

no offense popper, and while i appreciate the lip service being paid of being turned off by Trump, but it speaks volumes that you: (1) are tired of the impeachment/obstruction talk and want it to move on without being equally if not more turned off by Trump still hyping up "lock her up" talk in 2019, and (2) recognize that Trump is a bad candidate and yet still can't manage to hold your nose and vote Dem because somehow that would be an ideological betrayal of the republican party.

Trump is bad for America, full stop. these immigration policies are garbage. emboldening fringe Republicans like the religious right and racists under the banner of "conservative judges" and "social conservatism" is bad. the trade war is bad. even the tax cut was bad. none of what this administration + congress did touched on infrastructure, balancing the budget, curbing spending, protecting civil liberties, fostering entrepeneurship, etc.

it's all a spineless mismash of pandering towards disenfranchised white people, targeting hispanics, the chinese, and coastal elites as the source of societal ills for flyover whites and it's tearing this country apart.

Like, what exactly is so appealing about Trump to you as a candidate other than he's got (R) next to his name on the ballot? How is he attracting your vote, substantively? Or are you just voting pavlolianly, out of instinct and inertia?

You’ve drawn a lot of conclusions that I disagree with Pancakes. You’ve not going to change your outlook no matter what I say. I’ll fade back into the underbrush now and let you guys carry on. If this thread is any indication of wider voter attitudes then you’ve only got 18 more months of villainy to endure. That should give you and others here some hope for brighter days.

Sorry Popper, this isn't an "agree to disagree" situation. I actually have changed my political outlook. I once identified as Republican on the virtues of small government and personal liberties, but have changed my stance based on how Republican leadership has behaved - because my beliefs and values go beyond superficial party affiliation. Trump is bad, bro.

And furthermore, you really haven't said much of anything, much less convincing. When you say that the "five leading contenders at this point don't do it for me" but you are open to a different Dem nominee, you're making a judgment based on a candidate's personality, not platform. That, or you're lying, and you're going to vote R because of course you are.

P.S. it's not just "us" NeverTrumps that have 18 months of villainy to endure, it's you too. It's not just us living in dark days, you are as well. It's your country that's committing to fossil fuels, rebranded as "Freedom Gas" and exasperating global warming. Trump's EPA has undone regulations that prevent coal sludge, pesticides, and heavy metals from being dumped into public waterways. [Carcinogenic] Coal Ash can once again be sold as aggregate, and used to landscape golf courses and playgrounds. Trump has also effectively killed the solar industry in America thanks to 30% tariffs on solar panels. Home-placed solar panels is literally free energy, regardless of your stance on global warming, and now it's cost prohibitive.

Thanks to Trump, it's now easier for Banks to force arbitration and bypass litigation, specifically costly class action litigation, and re-engage in pre-2008 predatory practices. Trump has made the world a more dangerous place in pulling out of the Arms Trade Treaty, allowing gun manufacturers to more easily and freely sell guns to countries with poor human rights records. Trump is the first President since FDR to not have a White House science advisor. Thanks to Trump, the nation is hurtled ever deeper into debt.

These are bad policies that are objectively awful for any president regardless of party, so when you say that you remain unconvinced that there's a better candidate, I have to wonder what the f you're talking about.

I was hoping to take a break from the thread but you deserve a response as you obviously put some thought and time into this.

Regarding paragraph 1 – I don’t blame you a bit for changing your political outlook. I’m disappointed with leadership on both sides of the aisle and have been for many years. I’ve posted withering criticisms of Presidents Bush, Obama and Trump and it sickens me that primary voters leave me/us with really bad choices.

Regarding paragraph 2 – The idea you put forth here is beneath you and shouldn’t even be dignified with a response but I will. Jim Webb’s policy toward, and respect for the military and his extensive executive experience appeal to me as a voter. Blumberg is a serious and thoughtful leader and our country would benefit from his service. I don’t know how to respond further because, unlike your previous history here, you’ve resorted to personal attack. Not to worry, I’m used to it on this thread.

Regarding paragraph 3 – Do you think I don’t know we are all living in dark days? Go back and look at my posts over the last 5 or 10 years. I’ve pointed out more than once it’s hopeless and that we are all doomed. It was hopeless before Trump and it has everything to do with human nature. Guess what, D’s and R’s have the same human flaws and we as voters have trouble deciphering and understanding self interest as it regards our politicians and leaders. How did Trump kill solar energy because of his tariffs? Did we forget how to manufacture here? My stance on global warming is, it sucks, and we should expedite incrementally affordable steps to mitigate it. I oppose Trumps disregard for rational environmental regulation and policy but don’t know enough about what’s currently happening to contribute much. Thanks for raising the flag. I hope you educate as many people as possible and I look forward to reading your future posts on environmental subjects.

Regarding paragraph 4 – Your post here is too broad brush for a response except for the debt portion. As I’ve posted before, most voters don’t seem to care about deficits and debt and that’s why politicians in both parties feel free to run it up. Again, we are doomed because of their ignorance and selfishness.

Regarding paragraph 5 – I have to wonder what the f you’re talking about given I just gave you two names of candidates in my previous post that would be better. I’m sure they could be pulled out of retirement with enough support from the D party.

P.S. I live on the beach in Hutchinson island FL. it breaks my heart to see what we've done to the environment. I collect plastics and trash that wash up and our fisheries are being depleted inexorably. We also endure Lake Okeechobee water releases that despoil the Indian River Lagoon and surrounding waterways. Very sad indeed.

[gtn130]

Popper if you care so much about the environment maybe don’t vote for the guy putting energy executives in charge of the EPA?

It sounds like you want to have your cake and eat it too when you virtue signal about the environment and still vote for the guy promoting Freedom Gas