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Political Roundtable Part XXVI

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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#1121 » by daoneandonly » Wed Sep 4, 2019 5:01 pm

pancakes3 wrote:biologically, a fetus is different from an infant. you can quibble about the line of when a fetus becomes viable, but in persisting on equating all wombed entities with all born entities is just factually incorrect. moreover, nobody is advocating for the absolute right to terminate all pregnancies without restriction. take a state like Alaska, that has no restrictions on how late an abortion could take place - there was only 1 reported case of post-20-week abortion in 2015. week 20 out of 40. and a 20-week old fetus as a 0% chance of viability. nationally, only 1.3% of abortions occur after 20 weeks, and virtually all of them due to medical complications - not elective birth control. 91.1% of all abortions occur within the first trimester. if you're trying to equate a 12-week-old fetus with a human baby, you're devaluing the worth of a human baby. if you're trying to say that the 1.3% is still murder, you're saying that given the choice to save a mother vs. saving a fetus, the mother's life has no value.

historically, abortion is a non-issue, designed by the evangelical right in the 80's to be an emotional trigger, clouding actual issues, to win over working class votes. even amongst deeply religious and misogynistic 19th and early 20th century Americans, abortion was an accepted practice. keep in mind, this is in an era of our puritanical history where women couldn't even vote.

practically speaking, abortion rates have gone down every single year since 1990, and is currently at its lowest numbers since Roe was passed. thanks to the services provided by organizations such as planned parenthood - be it education, or contraceptives, the decision to abort is becoming less and less frequent. teen pregnancy is down. birth rate is down.

legally, Roe and Casey are such deeply entrenched, well reasoned precedents, that no Court, no matter how right wing, would be able to find legal footing to overturn.

the best that a conservative Court can hope to do is chip away at Roe and Casey, preserving the right to abort on a federal level, but allowing states to restrict it. this would lead to a bifucation of states between places like Alabama, Georgia, and Mississippi and abortion-tolerant states. The Alabamas and Georgias of the world would be able to push the law as far as they can push it (if i had to guess, setting the viability limits prior to 20 weeks would difficult to implement because of Roe, but states would be allowed to tax abortion providers, indirectly banning abortions, and abortion providers would be subject to the whims of federal grant money and charitable funding - gets fuzzy with universal health care; probably cannot criminalize providers, seeing as how abortion is still protected under Roe).

and i know this is a lot to slog through, but even in recognizing that there's a slog highlights the sh*tshow nonsense the "abortion debate" really is. it's a ruse. a distraction. it's a way for republicans to vilify democrats without dems having to actually do anything actually evil - just convince that Dem platforms aren't just wrong, but intrinsically evil. abortion isn't just sad, it's EVIL. welfare isn't just sad, it's a MORAL FAILING of a LAZY POPULOUS. socialism isn't just a check on late-stage capitalism, setting floors and ceilings, in an effort to prevent too much money funneling into too few people, but an UNARTICULATED COMMUNIST ATTACK ON AMERICAN VALUES.

and when Dems cry foul on policy disagreements such as military spending or crony capitalism, the cognitive dissonance within the intellectually lazy doesn't allow for them to change parties because the moral stakes of MURDER outweigh any viable counterarguments on the other side.


Of that 91% that occur in the first trimester, the percentage of that that's just because of an oops, and not rape or mother/child's life being in danger is surely in the 90s as well.

These type of posts and pro choice stances dismiss and spit in the face of people who have suffered one of the worst circumstances a person can go through, a miscarriage. I've had a few friends who experienced this, and they were devastated. They didn't just lose some gooey fetus, they lost their child, and that broke them. Some of them were blessed enough to have kids after (one even before), yet they have not forgotten the one they lost, that baby is still in their hearts. Abortion is also an insult to all those who longed to be parents, but through no fault of their own, could not.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#1122 » by pancakes3 » Wed Sep 4, 2019 5:50 pm

you're human garbage.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#1123 » by daoneandonly » Wed Sep 4, 2019 6:15 pm

pancakes3 wrote:you're human garbage.


classy retort, but I guess that's all that the left have to justify killing an innocent child. But then use children when it props up their agenda, that's garbage.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#1124 » by daoneandonly » Wed Sep 4, 2019 6:27 pm

I_Like_Dirt wrote:
dobrojim wrote:You continue to argue in bad faith that babies and fetuses are the same.
They're not. If you believe they are, I think it's fine for you to live according
to those beliefs. What's not fine is your insistence that everyone else adhere
to those same beliefs.


Look at his list of responses, though. Other than on this singular point, he's either agreeing or his disagreement only goes so far as to disagree with an analogy while admitting that the issues identified are still a problem even if he disagrees with the analogy. He has this one singular argument to hold on to. That's it. It's either that or he has to start admitting that all those other issues that he claims to be more liberal about aren't actually issues he's more liberal about.

And his argument isn't even a logically sound one. He's suggesting that liberals don't want to prevent abortions when they're the ones arguing for universal health care and access to health care that will, if done properly, actually reduce abortions while sacrificing that side of the equation in an attempt to ban abortions. There's more to his argument that he's saying but he won't say it because he hasn't found a logical means to say it that doesn't make him look bad, and he's definitely concerned about that.

As for extreme cases of what happens when abortions are banned and how the true issue is the state's ability to care for its people and not actually abortions, weirdly enough you can look no further than former communist states. Here's an article that only goes into some of the superficial aspects of what happened in Romania. The realities were much, much worse and abortions weren't actually prevented.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/05/16/what-actually-happens-when-a-country-bans-abortion-romania-alabama/


Yes let's raise the minimum wage so people can make a living and just do jobs that were meant for high school/college kids looking to make a little extra income. There's a way to motivate people and give them a reason to try harder and move up, kind of like the progressive tax system, so it all fits.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#1125 » by I_Like_Dirt » Wed Sep 4, 2019 6:29 pm

daoneandonly wrote:Of that 91% that occur in the first trimester, the percentage of that that's just because of an oops, and not rape or mother/child's life being in danger is surely in the 90s as well.


(1) I'd love to see your sources on the percentages of "oopses."

(2) I notice your "oopses" include scenarios where known upcoming health conditions will bankrupt the family. This idea of oopses needs to die. It's a bogeyman that has no grounding in reality.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#1126 » by daoneandonly » Wed Sep 4, 2019 6:39 pm

I_Like_Dirt wrote:
daoneandonly wrote:Of that 91% that occur in the first trimester, the percentage of that that's just because of an oops, and not rape or mother/child's life being in danger is surely in the 90s as well.


(1) I'd love to see your sources on the percentages of "oopses."

(2) I notice your "oopses" include scenarios where known upcoming health conditions will bankrupt the family. This idea of oopses needs to die. It's a bogeyman that has no grounding in reality.


Well those numbers will unfortunately be skewed because how many couples will own up to having the abortion because it was simply an accidental pregnancy, surely if you abort for a such a reason, your character should undoubtedly be questioned.

The majority of abortions are people in their 20's, you can call it bankrupt families all you want, that's your opinion and you have the right to have it. But it's more believable that people in their 20's just want to maintain their lifestyle, and a baby, even if just for 9 months, obviously cramps that.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#1127 » by pancakes3 » Wed Sep 4, 2019 7:06 pm

daoneandonly wrote:
pancakes3 wrote:you're human garbage.


classy retort, but I guess that's all that the left have to justify killing an innocent child. But then use children when it props up their agenda, that's garbage.


sorry bro, i tried classy. i wasted my time typing out an argument, but your takeaway is that a miscarriage is the same as losing an actual child. and then you tried to speak as an authority because you know couples who miscarried. that's what makes you human garbage.

you dismissing minimum wage jobs as part-time work for high school students makes you human garbage. when you go into starbucks for a coffee before work - that person behind the counter isn't in high school, nor should he be. when you go to a Chopt for lunch, the CVS for a tide pen, those aren't high school jobs. daycare workers, janitorial staff, amazon warehouse workers - these aren't part time jobs. dismissing them, when they are so integral to our society, makes you human garbage.

and of course more people in their 20's get abortions than teenagers. there are a lot more sexually active 20-29 year olds than 10-19 year olds.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#1128 » by Ruzious » Wed Sep 4, 2019 7:48 pm

daoneandonly wrote:
I_Like_Dirt wrote:
daoneandonly wrote:Of that 91% that occur in the first trimester, the percentage of that that's just because of an oops, and not rape or mother/child's life being in danger is surely in the 90s as well.


(1) I'd love to see your sources on the percentages of "oopses."

(2) I notice your "oopses" include scenarios where known upcoming health conditions will bankrupt the family. This idea of oopses needs to die. It's a bogeyman that has no grounding in reality.


Well those numbers will unfortunately be skewed because how many couples will own up to having the abortion because it was simply an accidental pregnancy, surely if you abort for a such a reason, your character should undoubtedly be questioned.

The majority of abortions are people in their 20's, you can call it bankrupt families all you want, that's your opinion and you have the right to have it. But it's more believable that people in their 20's just want to maintain their lifestyle, and a baby, even if just for 9 months, obviously cramps that.

You're acting like people want to have abortions. Nobody... wants to be in a position where an abortion is their choice. Nobody. It's a brutal thing to happen to the woman - both physically and emotionally - with long-lasting effects - again both physically and emotionally. I think you're losing track of the fact that women who have abortions are human beings just like your sister, just like the girl next door that you had a crush on in high school, just like the nice cashier at the grocery store you go to. I understand and respect the fact that you think abortions should be illegal (even though I don't agree), but I think your judging is off-base and without merit.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#1129 » by daoneandonly » Wed Sep 4, 2019 8:30 pm

pancakes3 wrote:
daoneandonly wrote:
pancakes3 wrote:you're human garbage.


classy retort, but I guess that's all that the left have to justify killing an innocent child. But then use children when it props up their agenda, that's garbage.


sorry bro, i tried classy. i wasted my time typing out an argument, but your takeaway is that a miscarriage is the same as losing an actual child. and then you tried to speak as an authority because you know couples who miscarried. that's what makes you human garbage.

you dismissing minimum wage jobs as part-time work for high school students makes you human garbage. when you go into starbucks for a coffee before work - that person behind the counter isn't in high school, nor should he be. when you go to a Chopt for lunch, the CVS for a tide pen, those aren't high school jobs. daycare workers, janitorial staff, amazon warehouse workers - these aren't part time jobs. dismissing them, when they are so integral to our society, makes you human garbage.

and of course more people in their 20's get abortions than teenagers. there are a lot more sexually active 20-29 year olds than 10-19 year olds.


And you dismissing peoples' feelings who had miscarriages as oh, not the same as losing a child makes you the layer below garbage. Im sure if that mother had tears in her eyes, you'd just tell her she didn't lose anything.

If the job in question can be done at a kiosk station, then sorry, that's not a job that the general public should have to pay more for to give them a so called livable wage. But you and AOC always look for the easy way out. Technology has continually made certain jobs obsolete, said jobs shouldn't be bringing in incomes that the Dems are suggesting.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#1130 » by doclinkin » Wed Sep 4, 2019 8:40 pm

For what its worth I appreciate da1andonly showing up for his single issue. I don't have a problem with him having a principled stand on something he honestly feels. Myself I feel like life is too complicated to have a single hill to defend in a war on all fronts but if the hill is the lives of children --even if it is based in a misapprehension of biology-- then still that's a better hill to defend than the rights of billionaires to keep more of their money.

Two pregnancies of my wife ended in miscarriage. It was hard. Life happens. I still in my life have only met one woman for whom an abortion was regarded like birth control. I do think it is more dangerous not to fund organizations like Planned Parenthood who work hard to prevent unwanted pregnancy with affordable or free birth control and education, but I am proud of them for saying they will no longer accept public funding so that they aren't subject to the political conversation.

I think da1 may be misguided in his support for people who do not have his best interests at heart. But I do think he has a good heart. Or would like to think he does. And I think a majority of R voters think similarly to how he does. Everything he agreed to on the other page is anathema to the public stance of the people he has elected. But the people in charge of shaping the narrative and choosing the sides are very very very good at what they do. That is why they are billionaires and why they run the country from behind the shell account of a few politicians with limited careers in public life.

The one piece that he is missing is that he has bought into the narrative that people who are on the other side of the aisle vote for their best interest. Instead of a common good. Voter turnout is low in this country. And the higher your income level the more likely you are to vote. Liberal or republican. The majority of people on the left end of the spectrum are simply voting to put into action principles that you agree with: if government exists it is to define a common good and work towards that. And yeah somebody has to pay for that. So the people who can afford it best are the ones who will likely be required to give more. They can afford it better.

The rest is just splitting percentages on what it means to 'afford' and 'better'.

One small piece that da1 misses as an immigrant is the rich cultural heritage and family support that Indians have, and the concept that they are not the focus of a pogrom effectively the way Spanish speaking immigrants are. It costs a plane ticket to get here from India and you need family to stay with while you work your way up, and the opportunities they provide by having already established a foothold. Every Dunkin Donuts I know, most of the Hotels I have ever stayed in, and it's a stereotype but with a basis in reality: every chain convenience store on my way to and from work is owned or staffed by people from the Indian subcontinent. Yes they have opportunities here that they would not have elsewhere. And they come from a culture that prizes education and encourages their kids to do so if they can. Because the conversation interests me and because I only need 4 hours of sleep a night I read a great deal on the residual negative effects of the Indian caste system in america, in addition to how other non Hindu groups are oppressed and their advancement suppressed by not buying into the caste system in India itself.

Given that level of stratification preventing advancement based on cultural prejudices, guaranteed many of his countrymen would walk here if they could. America does provide opportunities that other countries do not. But given that they can't walk or swim, even the ones who land with 20$ in their pocket have family here and a visa or a passport or the means to buy a plane ticket.

I get it. You felt targeted and were uncomfortable in Baltimore when you had to walk to your car. So moved to Houston where presumably you have family and there is a large thriving Indian community of people who look and eat as you do. And with the memory of that discomfort you have some innate prejudices that inform your political choices, in feeling that since you know people who worked their way up, why is this advancement not open to everyone?

The fact is, much like India though less openly, there is a caste system here in the US. People tend to hire people who remind them of themselves. There will tend to be a tyranny of the majority wherever you are. Some cultural prejudices work against people.

When it comes to Spanish speaking immigrants you won't find harder working people than many from our southern neighbors. You can't build a house or have a landscaping business or open a restaurant if you don't want to hear Spanish being spoken. Like your countrymen they tend to move to areas and businesses where family members have laid a foothold. The difference is nobody is targeting public policy against Indians. (Unless they are muslim of course).

And the descendants of a captive population in our African American citizens have not been allowed to have a cultural tradition. Unlike African immigrants who themselves do come here to study and find opportunities. Here the primary culture of african american descendants has been one of survival. In making do with whatever hardship life hands you. It shows up in artistic expression whether blues or jazz or rock and roll or R&B or motown or soul or hiphop or shoot in athletic expression like basketball. But it also means Black americans have been typecast in our national movie as outcasts, underclass, villains. You under estimate how hard it is to transcend that cultural narrative. That the only role models you see are athletic or artistic. That even our underfunded inner city educational system is used partly as low security detention centers. That there is little expectation of success becasue nobody is teaching you how, and the opportunities are not presented to you. If the majority tends to hire people who look like them (not you) and banks won't give you loans etc. Then what. And if cops are disproportionately arresting people simply because you fit the description of some other poor dude who made a hard decision. It's hard to feel like the American dream is your dream when it was built on the murder and forced labor and rape of a couple hundred years of your ancestry. And there still is a caste system that says your role isn't even street sweeper but a body in a cell somewhere, filling a space and earning money for a for-profit penitentiary. So some politician can feel good about seeming like a tough Law and Order kinda guy while collecting big fundraising checks from that prison corporation.

It's a mess.

Little guys like us, even the struggling middle class little guys, working guys, we are pitted against each other. Thinking the enemy is the bored cats who made you uncomfortable walking to your car. Not the fact that Baltimore used to have a thriving economy until the mega corporations that ran the port automated and shifted their profits overseas. And American manufacturing was shifted to Chinese children, the same way every call center is staffed in India or the Philippines. Just to save a corporation a few dollars. Maximize shareholder profit. Making the well off even richer, based on someone else's labor.

I've taught schools in the inner city. Grew up in the urban northeast. People are both lazy and hardworking at the same time. Every kid I knew in those schools would work their tail off to earn a dollar. Even kids I knew who ended up slinging drugs worked harder than a hardware store manager or desk attendant. If there was worthy valuable work available they'd do it. So long as there was any pride in it. It didn't feel like being used.

I don't know. I think we all want the same things, it's just hard to step into another person's shoes and some people are more vulnerable to fear and resentment. And yeah some people are born with advantages that other people don't have. A safety net or a head start or a cultural expectation. These things matter. It's hard to see outside yourself sometimes. but. In the case of da1andonly I think here is a guy whose heart is in the right place in a lot of ways, he just has heard some incredibly well crafted and insidious lies that feel like a romantic cause to champion.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#1131 » by Wizardspride » Wed Sep 4, 2019 8:48 pm

Read on Twitter
?s=19
McCabe explains that Trump believed Putin over US intel about NK missiles: "Intel officials [told Trump his position] was not consistent with any of the intel our govt possesses. To which POTUS replied, 'I don't care. I believe Putin.'"
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#1132 » by pancakes3 » Wed Sep 4, 2019 9:02 pm

no, doc. i don't think he's not a good person at heart. abortion isn't his one hill to die on, he has bad opinions on a number of topics, several of which you yourself has lectured him on.

and as for the indian immigrant issue - there are so many missing pieces to the discussion, such as talking about as nations with a large supply of educated immigrants, the vast majority of those immigrants from India and China who are able to stay, get green cards, and citizenship, are educated. they may be poor when they come, but they're educated, and they have the capacity to quickly and effectively improve their conditions. the same cannot be said for other nations. this is not putting India/China on a pedestal educationally. It's just that with those two countries providing 1/3 of the human population, the overall number of applicants is greater, and the number of visas granted per country is limited. this doesn't go the illegal side where it's prohibitively costly for uneducated Asians to come to America, compared to South American, or even European/Africans. Nor does it touch upon refugees and asylum seekers - which there are Asian refugees and asylum seekers also.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#1133 » by Pointgod » Wed Sep 4, 2019 10:48 pm

pancakes3 wrote:you're human garbage.


Don’t let him get to you. He’s not worth it. Just continue to point out his moral bankruptcy and his support of a man who compares favourably to the anti Christ.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#1134 » by montestewart » Thu Sep 5, 2019 3:01 am

Pointgod wrote:
pancakes3 wrote:you're human garbage.


Don’t let him get to you. He’s not worth it. Just continue to point out his moral bankruptcy and his support of a man who compares favourably to the anti Christ.

“compares favourably” is being pretty generous
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#1135 » by pancakes3 » Thu Sep 5, 2019 3:36 am

today, this thread could have been spent discussing:

the military budgets cut, so that Trump can have his wall
https://www.npr.org/2019/09/04/757463817/these-are-the-11-border-projects-getting-funds-intended-for-military-constructio

steve king drinking from a toilet to own the libs
https://thehill.com/homenews/house/459973-steve-king-says-he-drank-from-toilet-at-detention-center

the emolument issues of Pence staying at Doonbeg (apparently he stayed there Monday night, flew to Dublin on Tuesday for meetings, flew back to Doonbeg, and spent the night Tuesday night, which is just egregious)

trump drawing with sharpie on a week-old Dorian path projection to trace out a path to include Alabama, but not addressing it, during an interview

or any number of other topics but instead the conversation is constantly being dragged into this wormhole where everything devolves into abortion. it's exhausting. it's like when with SD20 when everything had to be tied to his own personal experiences, except at least there were multiple aspects of him the convo could have devolved - into him being an ultimate sex-haver and the rest of us virgins, into him being a millionaire who rubbed elbows with Chicago's elite, into him being the Dentist version of Nino Brown, etc. whereas now, the word "babykiller" is invoked on every. single. page. of. this. thread.

yall right. the dude is on ignore from now on.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#1136 » by daoneandonly » Thu Sep 5, 2019 11:10 am

doclinkin wrote:For what its worth I appreciate da1andonly showing up for his single issue. I don't have a problem with him having a principled stand on something he honestly feels. Myself I feel like life is too complicated to have a single hill to defend in a war on all fronts but if the hill is the lives of children --even if it is based in a misapprehension of biology-- then still that's a better hill to defend than the rights of billionaires to keep more of their money.

Two pregnancies of my wife ended in miscarriage. It was hard. Life happens. I still in my life have only met one woman for whom an abortion was regarded like birth control. I do think it is more dangerous not to fund organizations like Planned Parenthood who work hard to prevent unwanted pregnancy with affordable or free birth control and education, but I am proud of them for saying they will no longer accept public funding so that they aren't subject to the political conversation.

I think da1 may be misguided in his support for people who do not have his best interests at heart. But I do think he has a good heart. Or would like to think he does. And I think a majority of R voters think similarly to how he does. Everything he agreed to on the other page is anathema to the public stance of the people he has elected. But the people in charge of shaping the narrative and choosing the sides are very very very good at what they do. That is why they are billionaires and why they run the country from behind the shell account of a few politicians with limited careers in public life.

The one piece that he is missing is that he has bought into the narrative that people who are on the other side of the aisle vote for their best interest. Instead of a common good. Voter turnout is low in this country. And the higher your income level the more likely you are to vote. Liberal or republican. The majority of people on the left end of the spectrum are simply voting to put into action principles that you agree with: if government exists it is to define a common good and work towards that. And yeah somebody has to pay for that. So the people who can afford it best are the ones who will likely be required to give more. They can afford it better.

The rest is just splitting percentages on what it means to 'afford' and 'better'.

One small piece that da1 misses as an immigrant is the rich cultural heritage and family support that Indians have, and the concept that they are not the focus of a pogrom effectively the way Spanish speaking immigrants are. It costs a plane ticket to get here from India and you need family to stay with while you work your way up, and the opportunities they provide by having already established a foothold. Every Dunkin Donuts I know, most of the Hotels I have ever stayed in, and it's a stereotype but with a basis in reality: every chain convenience store on my way to and from work is owned or staffed by people from the Indian subcontinent. Yes they have opportunities here that they would not have elsewhere. And they come from a culture that prizes education and encourages their kids to do so if they can. Because the conversation interests me and because I only need 4 hours of sleep a night I read a great deal on the residual negative effects of the Indian caste system in america, in addition to how other non Hindu groups are oppressed and their advancement suppressed by not buying into the caste system in India itself.

Given that level of stratification preventing advancement based on cultural prejudices, guaranteed many of his countrymen would walk here if they could. America does provide opportunities that other countries do not. But given that they can't walk or swim, even the ones who land with 20$ in their pocket have family here and a visa or a passport or the means to buy a plane ticket.

I get it. You felt targeted and were uncomfortable in Baltimore when you had to walk to your car. So moved to Houston where presumably you have family and there is a large thriving Indian community of people who look and eat as you do. And with the memory of that discomfort you have some innate prejudices that inform your political choices, in feeling that since you know people who worked their way up, why is this advancement not open to everyone?

The fact is, much like India though less openly, there is a caste system here in the US. People tend to hire people who remind them of themselves. There will tend to be a tyranny of the majority wherever you are. Some cultural prejudices work against people.

When it comes to Spanish speaking immigrants you won't find harder working people than many from our southern neighbors. You can't build a house or have a landscaping business or open a restaurant if you don't want to hear Spanish being spoken. Like your countrymen they tend to move to areas and businesses where family members have laid a foothold. The difference is nobody is targeting public policy against Indians. (Unless they are muslim of course).

And the descendants of a captive population in our African American citizens have not been allowed to have a cultural tradition. Unlike African immigrants who themselves do come here to study and find opportunities. Here the primary culture of african american descendants has been one of survival. In making do with whatever hardship life hands you. It shows up in artistic expression whether blues or jazz or rock and roll or R&B or motown or soul or hiphop or shoot in athletic expression like basketball. But it also means Black americans have been typecast in our national movie as outcasts, underclass, villains. You under estimate how hard it is to transcend that cultural narrative. That the only role models you see are athletic or artistic. That even our underfunded inner city educational system is used partly as low security detention centers. That there is little expectation of success becasue nobody is teaching you how, and the opportunities are not presented to you. If the majority tends to hire people who look like them (not you) and banks won't give you loans etc. Then what. And if cops are disproportionately arresting people simply because you fit the description of some other poor dude who made a hard decision. It's hard to feel like the American dream is your dream when it was built on the murder and forced labor and rape of a couple hundred years of your ancestry. And there still is a caste system that says your role isn't even street sweeper but a body in a cell somewhere, filling a space and earning money for a for-profit penitentiary. So some politician can feel good about seeming like a tough Law and Order kinda guy while collecting big fundraising checks from that prison corporation.

It's a mess.

Little guys like us, even the struggling middle class little guys, working guys, we are pitted against each other. Thinking the enemy is the bored cats who made you uncomfortable walking to your car. Not the fact that Baltimore used to have a thriving economy until the mega corporations that ran the port automated and shifted their profits overseas. And American manufacturing was shifted to Chinese children, the same way every call center is staffed in India or the Philippines. Just to save a corporation a few dollars. Maximize shareholder profit. Making the well off even richer, based on someone else's labor.

I've taught schools in the inner city. Grew up in the urban northeast. People are both lazy and hardworking at the same time. Every kid I knew in those schools would work their tail off to earn a dollar. Even kids I knew who ended up slinging drugs worked harder than a hardware store manager or desk attendant. If there was worthy valuable work available they'd do it. So long as there was any pride in it. It didn't feel like being used.

I don't know. I think we all want the same things, it's just hard to step into another person's shoes and some people are more vulnerable to fear and resentment. And yeah some people are born with advantages that other people don't have. A safety net or a head start or a cultural expectation. These things matter. It's hard to see outside yourself sometimes. but. In the case of da1andonly I think here is a guy whose heart is in the right place in a lot of ways, he just has heard some incredibly well crafted and insidious lies that feel like a romantic cause to champion.


First and foremost, sorry for the losses you and your wife experienced. As mentioned, no one should ever have to deal with that, and people like pancake may feel like its no loss, but those with a heart or those who experienced it can empathize.

Second, thank you for the great post, if only others on your side could do the same. But the likes of pancake, querdo, jwiz, zonk, and point (and i actually liked point) embody Trump more than they'll ever admit. The name calling, the immaturity, yet they think they're better than him, he can't do it, but they can.

Abortion is my main issue, that's definitely obvious with my points. But what's frustrating is what can only be described as the hypocrisy many on the left side of the issue embody. The fact that many call abortion a Christian issue and the defense is don't push your religious belief on us, when abortion is never clearly laid out in he Bible. Sure it can be easily interpreted as such and any God would want a life to be protected, but still not clearly state din any verse. Whereas helping the poor is splattered throughout many books of the Bible. This is what's aggravating, treating it like a buffet. This virtue and practice should be forced on everyone via a progressive tax system, but abortion, no, that doesn't fit our agenda or benefit us.

If we want to say Indian and Chinese immigrants have an advantage due to education, okay, I do question just how far an education from a 3rd world country really goes here, but it's a valid argument. The fix then is to improve the education system, put more money into it, paying more in taxes to improve the education system, even if you don't have kids, that behooves everyone as a whole. More than doubling the minimum wage only helps those making minimum wage.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#1137 » by dobrojim » Thu Sep 5, 2019 1:47 pm

People like pancake feel it's no loss...

Where did you get that idea?

You've become the poster child for the human phenomenon of how difficult it
is for people to change your opinion(s) even when confronted with outstanding evidence
which would bring those views into question. You read something into 'cakes views
that just are not there, most likely because you already think poorly of him,
or you simply have incredibly poor comprehension, like when we were explaining
to you how the Electoral College disenfranchises voters in large population states.
You already know what you know and it's way too painful to have to learn
that certain things are not true.
A lot of what we call 'thought' is just mental activity
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#1138 » by daoneandonly » Thu Sep 5, 2019 3:22 pm

dobrojim wrote:People like pancake feel it's no loss...

Where did you get that idea?

You've become the poster child for the human phenomenon of how difficult it
is for people to change your opinion(s) even when confronted with outstanding evidence
which would bring those views into question. You read something into 'cakes views
that just are not there, most likely because you already think poorly of him,
or you simply have incredibly poor comprehension, like when we were explaining
to you how the Electoral College disenfranchises voters in large population states.
You already know what you know and it's way too painful to have to learn
that certain things are not true.


pancakes3 wrote:
daoneandonly wrote:
pancakes3 wrote:you're human garbage.


classy retort, but I guess that's all that the left have to justify killing an innocent child. But then use children when it props up their agenda, that's garbage.


sorry bro, i tried classy. i wasted my time typing out an argument, but your takeaway is that a miscarriage is the same as losing an actual child. and then you tried to speak as an authority because you know couples who miscarried. that's what makes you human garbage.



Actually he said it, not me. Tell the people who suffered a miscarriage that its not the same as losing a child, see how they feel about that.

And what I said about the EC is NY and Cali shouldnt get to run rough shot over the rest of the country, and the EC prevents that from happening.
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gtn130
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#1139 » by gtn130 » Thu Sep 5, 2019 3:28 pm

the daoneandonly electoral college takes are far more nauseating than the abortion takes.
daoneandonly
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#1140 » by daoneandonly » Thu Sep 5, 2019 4:00 pm

Can respect your opinion, but the EC works, the people whining about it are doing so because their candidate lost, simply put

The Dems care about majority when it suits them, i.e. the popular vote. The majority of people don't make minimum wage, but let's more than double it for the few that do. The majority of people have an ID that can easily be used at the polls, but lets not mandate that for the 6% that dont.

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