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Mo Wagner

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Re: Mo Wagner 

Post#101 » by Ruzious » Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:48 pm

gtn130 wrote:
payitforward wrote:What we've left out so far is 3-point shooting. Overall, that is the only area of the game where Bryant has experienced a real drop -- he's shooting close to 40% more of them than last year -- but he's only making them at 24.6%.

That's it. That's the problem in Bryant's game this year.


I am not at all convinced Bryant should be taking as many 3s as he has been. A large number of the shots he's been taking from 3 appear to have no chance of ever going in. Moritz Wagner is a significantly better shooter than Bryant is.

As Dat would say - I think they should stick with their plan - and not let Bryant's slow start with 3's change it. It's better in the long run - even if it hurts a bit in the short run. Bryant has the ability to hit 3's at a good rate, but he's been rushing his shots. Let's see if he comes around by the end of the season.
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Re: Mo Wagner 

Post#102 » by nate33 » Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:53 pm

Ruzious wrote:
gtn130 wrote:
payitforward wrote:What we've left out so far is 3-point shooting. Overall, that is the only area of the game where Bryant has experienced a real drop -- he's shooting close to 40% more of them than last year -- but he's only making them at 24.6%.

That's it. That's the problem in Bryant's game this year.


I am not at all convinced Bryant should be taking as many 3s as he has been. A large number of the shots he's been taking from 3 appear to have no chance of ever going in. Moritz Wagner is a significantly better shooter than Bryant is.

As Dat would say - I think they should stick with their plan - and not let Bryant's slow start with 3's change it. It's better in the long run - even if it hurts a bit in the short run. Bryant has the ability to hit 3's at a good rate, but he's been rushing his shots. Let's see if he comes around by the end of the season.

Agreed. gtn130 makes a fair point that Bryant's frequent 3-point attempts are probably detrimental to success in the short term, but we're not worried about the short term. Giving the Bryant the green light to develop a comfort level from 3-point range is surely good in the long run.

Furthermore, my bet is that Bryant is hitting those shots at a pretty good clip in practice. The coaching staff must have some reason to assume he can hit those shots. I seriously doubt he'll stay a 24% 3-point shooter for the entire season.
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Re: Mo Wagner 

Post#103 » by tontoz » Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:25 pm

I agree that Bryant should have the green light to shoot 3s. A big part of being a good 3 or shooter is not being afraid to miss, which will happen most of the time. I think young guys struggle with this more than vets. The only answer is to keep shooting. Only time will tell if it is a short term problem or a Josh Smith problem (that's for you Nate).

However Bryant's problem isn't just 3s. He is shooting 8% worse on 2s. I think at least part of this is due to playing with shoot first pgs. Sato was a pass first pg.
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Re: Mo Wagner 

Post#104 » by payitforward » Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:26 pm

DCZards wrote:Clifford Brown, pif. We could hang out. I'm currently learning to play the classic "I Remember Clifford" on piano. It was written by Benny Golson in honor of Brown, who died in a car accident when he was in his 20s.

My favorite version of "I Remember Clifford" is the one sung by Dinah Washington.

Well, young man, I first heard Dinah live in 1960 (she & Ray Charles sang a duet which provided me with my only pre-drugs out-of-body experience): https://soul-concerts.fandom.com/wiki/March_25,_1960_Civic_Opera_House,_Chicago,_IL

As a teenager, I was a regular at the Sutherland Lounge (google it if you don't know it) where I was called "Junior". I heard... well...everybody. Monk, Ornette on his first tour of clubs, Miles many times (with Coltrane of course), Blakey & the Jazz Messengers. I bought Miles Davis a drink there when I was 15. You probably know who Rahsaan Roland Kirk was, but I'm going to bet that you never sat about 8 feet from him as he played 3 saxophones simultaneously.

I heard the Jazz Messengers play "I Remember Clifford" at another club in Chicago some time in 1958, & it's mostly Lee Morgan's trumpet I associate with the tune. Benny Golson was the saxophonist & musical director at the time. Lee Morgan didn't really sound much like Clifford. Not a criticism: nobody did. Morgan came right out of Dizzy. He'd played in his band when he was no more than 19. He was a good player. Here they are doing the tune around that time:


When Benny Golson & Art Farmer formed their own group, the Jazztet (whom I also heard live a couple of times -- at the Modern Jazz Room, just North of downtown Chicago), I Remember Clifford became one of their staples. Art Farmer was never one of my favorites, but his tone was more Clifford-like (tho... in fact I think he plays it on flugelhorn, which brings the sound a little closer to Clifford's fat, Armstrong-like tone):

The closest thing to this tune that Clifford himself ever played was "Time," off that same album at Basin Street:

It's a beautiful composition by Richie Powell, Bud's young brother & the pianist in the Roach/Brown quintet. Richie died in the same accident that claimed Clifford. He was a couple of months from turning 25. There are few who remember him, but... I do.

When I think about these guys, or any who die young, I also think of the great Romantic poet John Keats, who died at 25. In the weeks & months after his death, Shelley wrote a memorial ode for him, called Adonais. It ends with these 2 stanzas:

That Light whose smile kindles the Universe,
That Beauty in which all things work and move,
That Benediction which the eclipsing Curse
Of birth can quench not, that sustaining Love
Which through the web of being blindly wove
By man and beast and earth and air and sea,
Burns bright or dim, as each are mirrors of
The fire for which all thirst, now beams on me,
Consuming the last clouds of cold mortality.

The breath whose might I have invoked in song
Descends on me; my spirit's bark is driven
Far from the shore, far from the trembling throng
Whose sails were never to the tempest given;
The massy earth and sphered skies are riven!
I am borne darkly, fearfully, afar;
Whilst, burning through the inmost veil of Heaven,
The soul of Adonais, like a star,
Beacons from the abode where the Eternal are.

Some months later Shelley himself died, sailing in a storm. He was 29. I'll leave it there.
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Re: Mo Wagner 

Post#105 » by The Consiglieri » Thu Nov 21, 2019 6:44 am

nate33 wrote:Just an unbelievable night by Wagner against Minnesota:



Curious how many watched him at Michigan? Been a die hard Michigan fan since I was a little kid and my brother introduced me to the X Men. As a result, I've been following Michigan basketball for thirty years. Probably not a stretch to say that Wagner is one of the top 2-3 players Michigan has rolled out since the days of the Fab Five. Not sold that will matter AT ALL at the next level (Cal Cheaney absolutely killed Michigan year after year, but as an NBA player he couldn't hold Webber or Howard's jock), but Wagner was NEVER as bad as he looked in the summer league, and probably not as good as he looked against Minnesota. Has a lot of tools, a lot of skill, and a lot of liabilities. I have no idea if he can just become a decent bench big, or an actual weapon as a starter, but I do know that he was an absolute freaking monster at Michigan period. An absolute monster, had all the tangibles, and came up HUGE repeatedly in big games (see his play in the NCAA Tourney in '18 and even in parts of the '17 tourney). Great roll of the dice at little to no cost. Hope he becomes something, it was a ton of fun to watch his story play out at Michigan.
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Re: Mo Wagner 

Post#106 » by tontoz » Thu Nov 21, 2019 1:34 pm

Screwed by the refs last night. He had a charge called against him which was an obvious block and should have been an and1. Spurs got all the calls on the other end.
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Re: Mo Wagner 

Post#107 » by BearlyBallin » Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:49 pm

Copied here from the San Antonio game thread. Seemed appropriate to have it here too.


nate33 wrote:
Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:
BearlyBallin wrote:
Read on Twitter
?s=20

Gotta love it when everyone touches the ball & then a easy bucket. :P


That was beautiful! Everybody's eating.

What was striking to me about that play was Wagner's gravity. After he passes to the corner, he fades to the three point line and 3 Spurs players follow him. That's why Rui was so open.

It's amazing how the mere threat of being a shooter opens up the floor for teammates.


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Re: Mo Wagner 

Post#108 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Sun Nov 24, 2019 1:24 am

Mo Swag is what I WISHED Vesely could have been. Unafraid.
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Re: Mo Wagner 

Post#109 » by Jamaaliver » Wed Nov 27, 2019 2:49 pm

Zach Lowe wrote:Ten NBA things I like and don't like

Moe Wagner's sneaky first step

Opponents expect Wagner to shoot 3s, set pointy-elbowed picks and yell a lot. I'm not sure they expected this.

A few times per game, Wagner will face up and roast some unsuspecting galoot. Wagner is averaging 12.8 points per game in just over 19 minutes, which translates to almost 24 per 36 minutes. He is shooting 52% from deep and 69% on 2s. Moe freaking Wagner leads the entire NBA in true shooting percentage. The Wizards constructed a nice center rotation -- Thomas Bryant and Wagner -- from Lakers castoffs. Whoops.

Wagner is moving his feet on defense and snagging lots of boards. Opponents have hit just 42% of shots at the rim with Wagner nearby, fifth lowest (!) among 58 players who challenge at least four such shots per game.

The Wizards have outscored opponents by 14 points per 100 possessions with Wagner on the floor -- and lost non-Wagner minutes by almost 11 points per 100 possessions. That 25-point differential is bananas.

Wagner might play more if he could stop fouling everyone in his vicinity. Big fella is racking up 7.5 fouls per 36 minutes, a hack rate only 14 players have ever hit over a full season. One upside of seeking contact: Wagner leads the league in charges drawn.

Wagner might also be the leagues' cheeriest teammate. Basket mics constantly pick him up shouting encouragement at teammates. I would purchase a Moe Wagner Encouragement app that reinforced positive life behaviors: "You are killing it on the treadmill, Zach! Great job ordering salad instead of fries! You're taking a lot of steps today, Zach! Keep it up!"
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Re: Mo Wagner 

Post#110 » by nate33 » Wed Nov 27, 2019 3:52 pm

Mo had a pretty good night against Denver. Only 3 fouls and 1 turnover. The team was +1 in 25 minutes with him on the floor.
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Re: Mo Wagner 

Post#111 » by closg00 » Wed Nov 27, 2019 7:27 pm

Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:Mo Swag is what I WISHED Vesely could have been. Unafraid.


Yup
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Re: Mo Wagner 

Post#112 » by nate33 » Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:38 pm

closg00 wrote:
Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:Mo Swag is what I WISHED Vesely could have been. Unafraid.


Yup

Wagner is nothing like Vesely though. He is infinitely more skilled and much sturdier.

Vesely's problem wasn't just that he was afraid. It was that he had no skill. The only position Vesely could play was center, because center is the only position you can get away with having a guy with no offensive skills. (And frankly, even today's centers are way more skilled than Vesely was.) Unfortunately, Vesely lacked the strength to even handle the PF position, much less center. Basically, he had a small forward's body and the skill set of a poorly skilled center.

After 5 or so years of filling out, I understand that he ultimately managed to play center full time in the Euroleague. But even so, he is more of a Bismack Biyombo type of player - a switchable defender, which is nice, but a total liability on offense. He still can't shoot and he has terrible hands so he's not much of a weapon as a pick-and-roll option.

Wagner is already more offensively polished than an average NBA center. He basically has a PF's skill set in a center's body and is already good enough to have a long career as a backup big man. If he fills out a bit and cleans up his fouling and turnovers, he might pan out to be a starter.

I have little patience for revisionist history with regards to Vesely. Vesely wasn't mismanaged somehow. There wasn't some subtle thing we could have done differently for him to have panned out as a good player. Vesely was a terrible, terrible basketball talent who should never have been picked in the 1st round, much less with the #6 pick.
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Re: Mo Wagner 

Post#113 » by closg00 » Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:47 pm

nate33 wrote:
closg00 wrote:
Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:Mo Swag is what I WISHED Vesely could have been. Unafraid.


Yup

Wagner is nothing like Vesely though. He is infinitely more skilled and much sturdier.

Vesely's problem wasn't just that he was afraid. It was that he had no skill. The only position Vesely could play was center, because center is the only position you can get away with having a guy with no offensive skills. (And frankly, even today's centers are way more skilled than Vesely was.) Unfortunately, Vesely lacked the strength to even handle the PF position, much less center. Basically, he had a small forward's body and the skill set of a poorly skilled center.

After 5 or so years of filling out, I understand that he ultimately managed to play center full time in the Euroleague. But even so, he is more of a Bismack Biyombo type of player - a switchable defender, which is nice, but a total liability on offense. He still can't shoot and he has terrible hands so he's not much of a weapon as a pick-and-roll option.

Wagner is already more offensively polished than an average NBA center. He basically has a PF's skill set in a center's body and is already good enough to have a long career as a backup big man. If he fills out a bit and cleans up his fouling and turnovers, he might pan out to be a starter.

I have little patience for revisionist history with regards to Vesely. Vesely wasn't mismanaged somehow. There wasn't some subtle thing we could have done differently for him to have panned out as a good player. Vesely was a terrible, terrible basketball talent who should never have been picked in the 1st round, much less with the #6 pick.


Hands11 is still saying that the coaching staff "ruined" Vesely
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Re: Mo Wagner 

Post#114 » by trast66 » Wed Nov 27, 2019 10:14 pm

Vesely pick showed Ernie had no idea where the league was headed. Jan never took a 3 point attempt in his NBA career.

I do think if we would have drafted Kawhi he never would have been the Kawhi we see today. But no way the Spurs would have turned Vesely into a player.
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Re: Mo Wagner 

Post#115 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Thu Nov 28, 2019 12:16 am

nate33 wrote:
closg00 wrote:
Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:Mo Swag is what I WISHED Vesely could have been. Unafraid.


Yup

Wagner is nothing like Vesely though. He is infinitely more skilled and much sturdier.

Vesely's problem wasn't just that he was afraid. It was that he had no skill. The only position Vesely could play was center, because center is the only position you can get away with having a guy with no offensive skills. (And frankly, even today's centers are way more skilled than Vesely was.) Unfortunately, Vesely lacked the strength to even handle the PF position, much less center. Basically, he had a small forward's body and the skill set of a poorly skilled center.

After 5 or so years of filling out, I understand that he ultimately managed to play center full time in the Euroleague. But even so, he is more of a Bismack Biyombo type of player - a switchable defender, which is nice, but a total liability on offense. He still can't shoot and he has terrible hands so he's not much of a weapon as a pick-and-roll option.

Wagner is already more offensively polished than an average NBA center. He basically has a PF's skill set in a center's body and is already good enough to have a long career as a backup big man. If he fills out a bit and cleans up his fouling and turnovers, he might pan out to be a starter.

I have little patience for revisionist history with regards to Vesely. Vesely wasn't mismanaged somehow. There wasn't some subtle thing we could have done differently for him to have panned out as a good player. Vesely was a terrible, terrible basketball talent who should never have been picked in the 1st round, much less with the #6 pick.


You're giving opinions, history in fact on Vesely when I just used ONE word. I agree with much, no, most by far of what you say above. Now where we could disagree all day on is the concept of skill and the small forward position.

Many years ago, I said centers like Javale McGee should be free to take a three point shot. That's when the conventional wisdom was that the center was the post position. "Get your big butt in the paint (only) mentality" prevaled. Now, GOOD Cs, like Embiid also have a perimeter game.

Conversely, IN MY OPINION Vesely could very well have played the position he played in the past. SF. Dude couldn't hit FTs to save his life. Yet, I vividly recall his (and Javale) having decent form on a jumper. WHERE HE CERTAINLY COULD PLAY SF was on defense. Vesely was a player that a good coach would have crafted a role for and would have dumped conventional/traditional rules for. In football, some versatile college recruits are simply called athletes.

Vesely was timid. So timid, that he looked even less skilled than he actually was. He also played for a very non-supportive new coach.

nate, ALL I SEE IS THAT MO WAGNER PLAYS WITH HUGE STONES. THAT IS ALL I WANTED FROM VESELY.
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Re: Mo Wagner 

Post#116 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Thu Nov 28, 2019 12:21 am

As bad a coach as some think Eddie Jordan was, I'll never forget the Pecherov, Blatche, McGee "shift" or frontcourt.

Who was the SF? Did he break the law by putting a 7 footer at "SF" . Nope.

Before Vesely was a Wizard, he played with James Gist, who was the PF on that team. What did that make Vesely?

Part of posting is opinions. nate has earned the right to have little patience. I LOVE HIM JUST THE SAME. :)

I'm just saying I disagree and that I certainly won't be arguing the point. As I type this I'm wondering how Oubre will do against his old team. I'm kinda pleased with these Wizards.

I'm CERTAINLY PLEASED with Mo Wagner!

In fact, I'm so happy with Wagner that I'm hoping to see Ian Mahinmi return to practice against Bryant and Wagner, because I know the Wizards have two good young Cs who will be here a while. Ian, however, is a better defender than either young guy.
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Re: Mo Wagner 

Post#117 » by tontoz » Thu Nov 28, 2019 1:20 am

Mo looked a bit overwhelmed by the size and strength of Plumlee.
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Re: Mo Wagner 

Post#118 » by long suffrin' boulez fan » Thu Nov 28, 2019 4:05 am

Gotta get Ish back in.

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Re: Mo Wagner 

Post#119 » by BearlyBallin » Thu Dec 5, 2019 10:30 pm

Read on Twitter
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Re: Mo Wagner 

Post#120 » by I_Like_Dirt » Mon Feb 10, 2020 2:44 pm

This needs to be bumped. He's back and killing it again. I'm still of two minds on his defense but if he figures that out, he's a quality starter at worst. He's come a long way since the offseason and really seems to be putting in the work. I'm very impressed.
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