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Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII

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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#1601 » by payitforward » Mon Mar 16, 2020 2:21 pm

gambitx777 wrote:Would personally trade Bryant for Allen in a heart beat. But I would not add much value on to it....

It's pretty well known what a big fan I am of Thomas Bryant! :) But, I would certainly trade Bryant straight up for Allen. But, I'd make every effort to have it be Wagner (plus quite a bit more -- as would be required).

gambitx777 wrote:...The trade actually works well for both teams. Allen is what Jordan is they could use a good offensive big man off the bench since they already have their big minutes defender/rim protector in Jordan. This saves them from maybe over paying a guy they don't really wanna keep and Bryant is on a team friendly deal....

Makes sense -- but... it's also why I'd try so hard to keep Bryant: that way it's the Wizards who have the defensive/offensive pair!

gambitx777 wrote:...The wizards who already have two other offensively inclined bigs in mo and AP.... And (Allen's) extension likely isn't going to be much more than Bryant's 8 mill a year probably him cap hold of 9 or maybe even mid level money. And he's a year younger. It helps out both teams honestly.

That's pretty funny about Pasecnisks... More importantly, you are wrong about Allen's extension; it will be in the Capela range.

In any case, it's unlikely that we make any effort to get Allen....
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#1602 » by Ruzious » Mon Mar 16, 2020 2:51 pm

payitforward wrote:
gambitx777 wrote:Would personally trade Bryant for Allen in a heart beat. But I would not add much value on to it....

It's pretty well known what a big fan I am of Thomas Bryant! :) But, I would certainly trade Bryant straight up for Allen. But, I'd make every effort to have it be Wagner (plus quite a bit more -- as would be required).

gambitx777 wrote:...The trade actually works well for both teams. Allen is what Jordan is they could use a good offensive big man off the bench since they already have their big minutes defender/rim protector in Jordan. This saves them from maybe over paying a guy they don't really wanna keep and Bryant is on a team friendly deal....

Makes sense -- but... it's also why I'd try so hard to keep Bryant: that way it's the Wizards who have the defensive/offensive pair!

gambitx777 wrote:...The wizards who already have two other offensively inclined bigs in mo and AP.... And (Allen's) extension likely isn't going to be much more than Bryant's 8 mill a year probably him cap hold of 9 or maybe even mid level money. And he's a year younger. It helps out both teams honestly.

That's pretty funny about Pasecnisks... More importantly, you are wrong about Allen's extension; it will be in the Capela range.

In any case, it's unlikely that we make any effort to get Allen....

I'm completely with Pif on this one (which doesn't help his case). The ideal trade to me would be Allen and Musa for Rui and Wagner.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#1603 » by payitforward » Mon Mar 16, 2020 2:56 pm

Well... that would be a dream trade, yes.
(I'm sure we will now see a stream of posts about how obvious it is that Rui is a phenom, etc. etc. etc.... how can anyone think his numbers have anything to do with it, etc. etc. etc.)
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#1604 » by Ruzious » Mon Mar 16, 2020 3:13 pm

payitforward wrote:Well... that would be a dream trade, yes.
(I'm sure we will now see a stream of posts about how obvious it is that Rui is a phenom, etc. etc. etc.... how can anyone think his numbers have anything to do with it, etc. etc. etc.)

Brooklyn might consider it for another number - dollars - Rui could bring in a ton of international money and is on the 1st year of a rookie contract.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#1605 » by Ruzious » Mon Mar 16, 2020 8:19 pm

A Nets fan suggested Rui for Allen and Caris LaVert. viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1950597&p=82483146#p82483146
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#1606 » by gambitx777 » Mon Mar 16, 2020 9:17 pm

I don't think Allen is worth Rui. I'm not saying he's the Japanese KD in the making but he's decent young and I wouldn't give that up.

As to piff. It might be in the capella range and that's still an ok deal imo. I think Bryant has enough value and the trade makes enough sense that you do it with out rui. I think you hold on to rui not just because he's good. But if he takes a step or two forward. He goes from being worth Allen to being worth a player of Allen's caliber plus some like another player or pick .

I do hope we look into an Allen trade.

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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#1607 » by Ruzious » Mon Mar 16, 2020 10:10 pm

gambitx777 wrote:I don't think Allen is worth Rui. I'm not saying he's the Japanese KD in the making but he's decent young and I wouldn't give that up.

As to piff. It might be in the capella range and that's still an ok deal imo. I think Bryant has enough value and the trade makes enough sense that you do it with out rui. I think you hold on to rui not just because he's good. But if he takes a step or two forward. He goes from being worth Allen to being worth a player of Allen's caliber plus some like another player or pick .

I do hope we look into an Allen trade.

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You're right in your first sentence saying Rui's decent but not right later when you said he's good.

Rui and Allen are basically the same age, and looking at their stats, it's obvious that Allen is significantly better. I can go over the stats differences if you want - but I figure you know they're not even close. I expect Rui will improve, but Allen could also improve. Rui's probably going to score more points per game and do certain things once in a while like going coast to coast - rebounding to scoring - that Allen will never do, and he has a much better chance to become a 3 point shooter, but Allen's a really good player - not really an unskilled player. He's more advanced as a scorer than... his teammate - Jordan was in his entire first decade in the NBA - and Jordan had Chris Paul to work with while Allen has Spencer Dinwiddie. Some of the things he does using his length reminds me of Tim Duncan. Is he going to be Duncan - NO, but he IS good already and also could become better.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#1608 » by gambitx777 » Tue Mar 17, 2020 1:49 am

I just don't think you trade a rookie who looks as good as rui has looked at time. That's selling low. If he does take those steps in a year or two his trade value is still gonna be what it is now. Loto picks are ussually given a lot of chances in the league. Don't sell low on Rui . Sell hi on Bryant
Ruzious wrote:
gambitx777 wrote:I don't think Allen is worth Rui. I'm not saying he's the Japanese KD in the making but he's decent young and I wouldn't give that up.

As to piff. It might be in the capella range and that's still an ok deal imo. I think Bryant has enough value and the trade makes enough sense that you do it with out rui. I think you hold on to rui not just because he's good. But if he takes a step or two forward. He goes from being worth Allen to being worth a player of Allen's caliber plus some like another player or pick .

I do hope we look into an Allen trade.

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You're right in your first sentence saying Rui's decent but not right later when you said he's good.

Rui and Allen are basically the same age, and looking at their stats, it's obvious that Allen is significantly better. I can go over the stats differences if you want - but I figure you know they're not even close. I expect Rui will improve, but Allen could also improve. Rui's probably going to score more points per game and do certain things once in a while like going coast to coast - rebounding to scoring - that Allen will never do, and he has a much better chance to become a 3 point shooter, but Allen's a really good player - not really an unskilled player. He's more advanced as a scorer than... his teammate - Jordan was in his entire first decade in the NBA - and Jordan had Chris Paul to work with while Allen has Spencer Dinwiddie. Some of the things he does using his length reminds me of Tim Duncan. Is he going to be Duncan - NO, but he IS good already and also could become better.


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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#1609 » by payitforward » Tue Mar 17, 2020 2:01 am

It's interesting. Back when we were lamenting the move Ernie made that cost us our '17 R1 pick, CCJ first pointed at Jarrett Allen as the guy we might have gotten. Everybody was in agreement that it would have been great -- & that was before Allen even had a chance to demonstrate how just good he really is.

I don't think I've ever seen this kind of unrealistic, ungrounded enthusiasm & "all-in" attitude towards Rio for any other Wizards rookie, since John Wall. Certainly Beal didn't get it. Porter didn't get it. Oubre didn't either.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not criticizing it! I'm just kind of in awe of it; it's something I've never seen before.

In the minds of most people here, Rui is some kind of tremendous prospect. & in those minds, he's had an outstanding rookie season. & heaven forbid Ruz or I or anyone discusses this kid based on the actual facts of his past & present, we get called "haters."

Troy Brown Jr. had a far better rookie season last year than Rui had this year, but he gets no kind of enthusiasm, none of this almost "groupie" vibe that surrounds Rui. Bryant slips a little, & people want to trade him for a sixpack of beer -- yet, even having slipped, he's performed way better than Rui has.

I'm sure I'll get plenty of criticism for this post too. I'm sure it'll get me called a "hater" again. Even though there isn't a word of criticism of Rui in the entire post.

Go figure....
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#1610 » by payitforward » Tue Mar 17, 2020 2:16 am

gambitx777 wrote:I just don't think you trade a rookie who looks as good as rui has looked at time. That's selling low. If he does take those steps in a year or two his trade value is still gonna be what it is now. Loto picks are ussually given a lot of chances in the league. Don't sell low on Rui . Sell hi on Bryant ...

This is what I mean. Rui has had a couple of quite good games. He has never approached what Bryant did last year. Yet, he's treated as if his runway was perfectly clear & you could see where it was leading -- to the sky, the stratosphere.

I don't mean to suggest that Rui has been terrible this year -- he hasn't. & he's done something important: he's shown that he is not a bust. There are guys who were picked higher than he was who haven't shown that.

But, he hasn't been *good.* He hasn't scored even at an average level for a PF, & he hasn't scored efficiently either. On the rest of the stuff, overall, he's been journeyman average -- which is actually pretty good for a rookie. I wouldn't say he's been a disappointment -- but then I didn't really expect a whole lot out of him. After all, he wasn't a great college player either.

Bryant has his own problems, but there isn't a thing Rui does that's at Thomas Bryant's level. He's no better a defender, & for the rest it ain't even close. (not quite so: Rui is a better FT shooter)

Yet, you are perfectly ready to send Bryant away, while the idea of trading Rui (which, btw, is not something we are going to do) seems just wrong wrong wrong.

Makes zero sense.

Edit: just to forestall the irrelevant responses -- I don't *want* to trade Rui. Nor am I reluctant to trade Bryant. If the deal is right, anyone can be traded. What I do think would be a good idea is to acquire Jarrett Allen. That idea has nothing whatever to do with Rui Hachimura.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#1611 » by DCZards » Tue Mar 17, 2020 3:21 am

PIF, I haven’t heard anyone here say they don’t want to trade Rui because he’s had an outstanding rookie season. It seems to me that some posters (including myself) are high on Rui, rightfully or wrongfully, because of the potential they see in him.

Jarrett Allen has turned out to be a very good NBA player…and I’d love to see him in a Zards uni. The Zards desperately need a player with Allen’s rebounding and shotblocking abilities. But I understand the desire to see how good a player Rui might become, particularly given the way the league is trending and the value of a having a versatile player with the ability to score inside and out and possibly play all three front court positions.

I realize those are high expectations for Rui. I guess time will tell.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#1612 » by dckingsfan » Tue Mar 17, 2020 2:14 pm

I think the thought is maybe the Nets would have the same irrational exuberance and be willing to trade for him...
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#1613 » by I_Like_Dirt » Tue Mar 17, 2020 3:53 pm

dckingsfan wrote:I think the thought is maybe the Nets would have the same irrational exuberance and be willing to trade for him...


And that's fair. I strongly disagree with the idea that it would be better for the Wizards to include Rui and Wagner instead of Bryant, though.

PIF's suggestion of what Bryant did last year is somehow an all-star level or something like it is not a belief I share. He's a better player this season but it doesn't show up in the box score because he's sacrificing some individual defensive rebounds, blocks and steals for defensive positioning, but he's still not particularly good on defense, either. I'm not convinced Rui is going to be a star, but I'd rather bet on him than either of Bryant or Wagner, to be honest. That said, if the argument is that the Nets would prefer Rui, I'd understand that, and it makes for some food for thought because Allen is a quality player.

And this isn't about getting rid of any specific player. Personally, I think Jarrett Allen might be jumping the gun unnecessarily a little bit at this point. He's a good player but the grass isn't always greener. And with the Nets on a crash course to try to appease Kyrie and KD, I kinda suspect they aren't going to be interested in younger players. I think they're going to be interested in vets that have existing relationships with their newfound temperamental injured superstars. That might mean a way to move something like Wall and/or Beal for some rather significant value.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#1614 » by DCZards » Tue Mar 17, 2020 4:01 pm

dckingsfan wrote:I think the thought is maybe the Nets would have the same irrational exuberance and be willing to trade for him...

Why is it “irrational” to believe that Rui could become an outstanding NBA player? I recall you having similar doubts about Beal and his ability to improve. Here’s some of what you said about BB in January and February of 2016.

dckingsfan wrote:And therein lies the problem. He was always a catch and shoot guy who never should be the primary ball handler. He can't be one of your max contracts. His trade value is probably pretty low right now.


dckingsfan wrote:At this point, it would just be "hope" that he improves.

BTW, yes - I would take Porter over Beal at this point.


dckingsfan wrote:Same arguments were made for McGee and Young (not you of course). The point being - you DO want to look ahead and understand what you will be paying an oft-injured guard that hasn't shown a lot of improvement in the last three years (other than the eye test).


dckingsfan wrote:Exactly - don't extend those that don't have the right trajectory. Beal is one of those players - eye candy with that shot (just don't look at his FT%). You let those guys go and sigh.

Otto Porter on the other hand is improving year over year. And he does the little things that help you win.


Meanwhile, here’s what I was trying to 'splain to y’all at the time:

DCZards wrote:I think a healthy Beal is still a borderline all-star.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#1615 » by dckingsfan » Tue Mar 17, 2020 4:27 pm

DCZards wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:I think the thought is maybe the Nets would have the same irrational exuberance and be willing to trade for him...

Why is it “irrational” to believe that Rui could become an outstanding NBA player? I recall you having similar doubts about Beal and his ability to improve. Here’s some of what you said about BB in January and February of 2016.

dckingsfan wrote:And therein lies the problem. He was always a catch and shoot guy who never should be the primary ball handler. He can't be one of your max contracts. His trade value is probably pretty low right now.


dckingsfan wrote:At this point, it would just be "hope" that he improves.

BTW, yes - I would take Porter over Beal at this point.


dckingsfan wrote:Same arguments were made for McGee and Young (not you of course). The point being - you DO want to look ahead and understand what you will be paying an oft-injured guard that hasn't shown a lot of improvement in the last three years (other than the eye test).


dckingsfan wrote:Exactly - don't extend those that don't have the right trajectory. Beal is one of those players - eye candy with that shot (just don't look at his FT%). You let those guys go and sigh.

Otto Porter on the other hand is improving year over year. And he does the little things that help you win.


Meanwhile, here’s what I was trying to 'splain to y’all at the time:

DCZards wrote:I think a healthy Beal is still a borderline all-star.

Well played. You must be working from home with too little to do :D

Guess you were right on Beal... he is a borderline all-star. Can you pull up your posts on Wall again? :D
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#1616 » by Ruzious » Tue Mar 17, 2020 5:48 pm

Sheesh, going back 4 years to pick out gotcha posts? Luckily, I've never been wrong in the last 4 years. You guys don't know how lucky you are to not have the burden of being right all the time.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#1617 » by DCZards » Tue Mar 17, 2020 6:02 pm

dckingsfan wrote:
DCZards wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:I think the thought is maybe the Nets would have the same irrational exuberance and be willing to trade for him...

Why is it “irrational” to believe that Rui could become an outstanding NBA player? I recall you having similar doubts about Beal and his ability to improve. Here’s some of what you said about BB in January and February of 2016.

dckingsfan wrote:And therein lies the problem. He was always a catch and shoot guy who never should be the primary ball handler. He can't be one of your max contracts. His trade value is probably pretty low right now.


dckingsfan wrote:At this point, it would just be "hope" that he improves.

BTW, yes - I would take Porter over Beal at this point.


dckingsfan wrote:Same arguments were made for McGee and Young (not you of course). The point being - you DO want to look ahead and understand what you will be paying an oft-injured guard that hasn't shown a lot of improvement in the last three years (other than the eye test).


dckingsfan wrote:Exactly - don't extend those that don't have the right trajectory. Beal is one of those players - eye candy with that shot (just don't look at his FT%). You let those guys go and sigh.

Otto Porter on the other hand is improving year over year. And he does the little things that help you win.


Meanwhile, here’s what I was trying to 'splain to y’all at the time:

DCZards wrote:I think a healthy Beal is still a borderline all-star.

Well played. You must be working from home with too little to do :D

Guess you were right on Beal... he is a borderline all-star. Can you pull up your posts on Wall again? :D

Actually, I was somewhat wrong about Beal…turns out he’s borderline All-NBA.

The record will show that I’ve also been mostly right about Wall over the years. But I’m sure PIF would be happy to show you where I was dead wrong about Andrew Nicholson, Trey Burke and a few others. :D
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#1618 » by dckingsfan » Tue Mar 17, 2020 7:27 pm

Were you for Wall's supermax? Just saying. Wall's supermax and the Nicholson/Mahinmi set back the franchise more than any other moves in recent times (IMO). If you were for those two things - you have been mostly wrong.

But okay, now we are in a pissing contest vs. the subject at hand... always fun.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#1619 » by payitforward » Tue Mar 17, 2020 7:31 pm

DCZards wrote:PIF, I haven’t heard anyone here say they don’t want to trade Rui because he’s had an outstanding rookie season. It seems to me that some posters (including myself) are high on Rui, rightfully or wrongfully, because of the potential they see in him.

Jarrett Allen has turned out to be a very good NBA player…and I’d love to see him in a Zards uni. The Zards desperately need a player with Allen’s rebounding and shotblocking abilities. But I understand the desire to see how good a player Rui might become, particularly given the way the league is trending and the value of a having a versatile player with the ability to score inside and out and possibly play all three front court positions.

I realize those are high expectations for Rui. I guess time will tell.

A very sensible response, for which I am grateful.

Although I would trade Rui for Allen straight up in a heartbeat (they are the same age: there's no particular reason to think one guy has more upside than the other -- or, to the degree that there is reason, it would favor Allen not Rui), in fact I changed my original proposal. I suggested that I would trade Bryant for Allen but would prefer to trade Wagner-plus-some for him.

About Rui, as I said, what I find remarkable is not that people think he's had an outstanding rookie season -- it would be impossible to think that (not meant critically). Nor that people would like to see how good a player he can become. Why not?

What I find remarkable is the enthusiastic, all-in-for-Rui, 100% commitment combined w/ a... I guess I'd call it a vision of/for Rui that operates at a huge distance from reality-Rui in college & as a rookie. An example would be your vision of him as "a versatile player with the ability to score inside and out and possibly play all three front court positions."

I don't see a "versatile player." I don't see a particularly strong ability to "score inside" or much ability to "score... outside" at all. & I don't see much possibility that he can "play all three front court positions." IMO, none of those are things anyone can see with their eyes. They are only things they can see with their imaginations & with wishful thinking. Now... that doesn't mean that all of those won't come true! Wishing won't make something so. But, for that matter, wishing for it doesn't mean it won't happen either!

Again, what's strange to me is not that people want Rui to be all those things. What's strange is the avalanche of approval for him that seems to be impelled pretty much only by those wishes.

For example, as I've said, Troy Brown Jr. was a better rookie than Rui (in fewer minutes, admittedly), but he didn't & doesn't inspire any similar mania. Bryant last year was unbelievably tremendous, & this year he is still quite good -- certainly way way better than Rui! -- but he inspires no mania either.

Not to mention that even pointing out Rui's limitations, no not his "limitations" -- just facts about his play, is akin to... I don't know what to call it -- maybe blasphemy! :)

However Rui turns out as a player, the whole thing strikes me as incredibly irrational. It's nice in a weird kind of way -- after all, Rui is an extremely likable, hard-working kid -- but it's weird too!
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#1620 » by payitforward » Tue Mar 17, 2020 8:03 pm

I_Like_Dirt wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:I think the thought is maybe the Nets would have the same irrational exuberance and be willing to trade for him...

And that's fair. I strongly disagree with the idea that it would be better for the Wizards to include Rui and Wagner instead of Bryant, though.

PIF's suggestion of what Bryant did last year is somehow an all-star level or something like it is not a belief I share....

What does "belief" have to do with it? The numbers are there. What does "all-star level" even mean, for that matter?

Above all, what does "somehow" mean? There is no "somehow" involved in Bryant's numbers last year. An average NBA Center posted a .597 TS% last year; Bryant posted .674. He was 21 years old the entire season. Duh.

I_Like_Dirt wrote:...He's a better player this season but it doesn't show up in the box score because he's sacrificing some individual defensive rebounds, blocks and steals for defensive positioning...

Really? Can you point to some numbers (anybody's, the team's, & any kind of numbers) where this change of approach, the result of him being a "better player" is reflected? If you can't, then I take it this is eye test stuff?

I_Like_Dirt wrote:...I'm not convinced Rui is going to be a star, but I'd rather bet on him than either of Bryant or Wagner, to be honest....

Please explain the relevance of this expression of your hunches about the future given that...
I_Like_Dirt wrote:Allen is a quality player...
-- i.e. right now. No hunch required. & the same age as Rui?

I_Like_Dirt wrote:...with the Nets on a crash course to try to appease Kyrie and KD, I kinda suspect they aren't going to be interested in younger players. I think they're going to be interested in vets that have existing relationships with their newfound temperamental injured superstars. That might mean a way to move something like Wall and/or Beal for some rather significant value.

You might be right about the Nets, but... I don't see how they could follow that strategy: e.g. if they traded for Wall & Beal, they'd have $140m tied up in 4 players next year. Not possible.

Not to mention that it's hard to see how acquiring Wall would "appease Kyrie." :)
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