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Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII

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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#1701 » by Ruzious » Wed Jul 29, 2020 7:46 pm

payitforward wrote:Of course... there are some problems with the Phoenix part of that trade.

1. Phoenix gave a lot to get Bridges. They gave a pick 6 spots down that year, & they gave a R1 pick (from Miami) a couple of years down the line.
2. Bridges is 4th on the team in minutes. & he's played extremely well. There's a good argument to be made that he is their best player.

Maybe with the Knicks part of the trade as well. They have a brand new FO. May not be ready to trade young guys. Tho... maybe it's the opposite -- no investment in guys taken by the old guard...?

I don't disagree, but I think the perception is that Bridges is just ok because he doesn't score a lot, isn't a flashy creative player, and doesn't get a lot of rebounds and assists. Most think Oubre's a much better version of the same type of player. Same type of deal in reverse on Rui. I look at what fans of other teams say about Rui on the trade board, and they think he's some untouchable future stud. Is that the way GM's think? Probably not for the most part - but I think there are some GM's out there that can be had.

Thanks for the feedback. I think you're right on the NY draft picks trade - I was giving up a bit more than needed, and I approve your changes. :)
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#1702 » by payitforward » Wed Jul 29, 2020 8:22 pm

I think a similar thing could be said about TBJ -- that he is underrated (e.g. by you in the proposed trade) b/c he isn't a big-time scorer, etc.

In fact, I don't rate Bridges higher than Brown at all. Why? Because of how good TBJ is already, yet he is almost three full years younger than Bridges. Troy turned 21 yesterday. Mikal Bridges turns 24 in August. &, keep in mind, this is being said by someone who was not happy when we picked TBJ in 2018 (I can be wrong, & in this case I was).

Between the two guys, if you look at all their numbers except defensive rebounding & two-point shooting, they are overall virtually indistinguishable in productivity. Their 3-point shooting was virtually identical this year -- both in shots/40 minutes & in %. For the rest, they were almost the same, except that Bridges is incredibly long & blocks more shots while Brown is a much better offensive rebounder.

When you look at defensive rebounding, Brown is way better. When you look at 2-point shooting, Bridges is way better -- but that is on very very few attempts; he only takes 5.5 2-pointers per 40 minutes. Every player gets some bunnies, & in his case they bump up his average b/c there are so few shots overall.

Now... Bridges is a very good player! I like him a lot. But, given the choice between them, I'd take Brown based on his outstanding productivity at 19 & 20 years old.

So... what about a different trade: Rui & our r2 pick to the Knicks for their #6 & Mitchell Robinson. If the Knicks FO thinks that Rui has out-performed his pick position at #9, & if they under-value Mitchell Robinson... it's just conceivable they'd go for that. & it would be a steal for the Wizards -- even though I'm going to get a raft of sh*t for saying so!
Spoiler:
Actually, I'll be really interested in Zards's reaction: he was all over Robinson 2 years ago, but he's also a strong supporter of Rui -- how about it Zards? :)
It'd be interesting to see whether Robinson & Bryant could be effective on the floor together.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#1703 » by payitforward » Wed Jul 29, 2020 8:28 pm

Important point: all of these proposed trades are way way speculative; they ain't happening! So, there's no point in saying, e.g., "PIF wants to trade Rui -- that's awful!"

All we're doing here is wondering what far-fetched ideas could turn out to be big-time positives for the Wizards.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#1704 » by payitforward » Wed Jul 29, 2020 8:39 pm

If my off the wall trade idea were possible, we'd have the #6 & #9 pick when the draft finally rolled around.

Who do you take? Toppin & Haliburton? What if Toppin were gone at #6? In fact, the latest bleacher report mock has both Toppin & Haliburton going in the top 5.

That would leave Avdija & Okongwu available at #6. Then, at #9 Hayes, Vassell, Anthony, Hampton & Saddiq Bey would be on the board.

In that case, maybe we'd wind up with Avdija (Okongwu if Ruz is picking) & Hayes?
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#1705 » by bsilver » Wed Jul 29, 2020 9:35 pm

payitforward wrote:Important point: all of these proposed trades are way way speculative; they ain't happening! So, there's no point in saying, e.g., "PIF wants to trade Rui -- that's awful!"

All we're doing here is wondering what far-fetched ideas could turn out to be big-time positives for the Wizards.

PIF, know you weren't serious, but Knicks would never consider that trade. Robinson is their only true center and at PF are Taj Gibson, Bobby Portis, Julius Randle. OTOH, their management seems to be incompetent. I would love the trade.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#1706 » by Ruzious » Thu Jul 30, 2020 6:53 pm

payitforward wrote:If my off the wall trade idea were possible, we'd have the #6 & #9 pick when the draft finally rolled around.

Who do you take? Toppin & Haliburton? What if Toppin were gone at #6? In fact, the latest bleacher report mock has both Toppin & Haliburton going in the top 5.

That would leave Avdija & Okongwu available at #6. Then, at #9 Hayes, Vassell, Anthony, Hampton & Saddiq Bey would be on the board.

In that case, maybe we'd wind up with Avdija (Okongwu if Ruz is picking) & Hayes?

You got me right. I'm a little skeptical on Avdija, love Okongwu and Hayes.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#1707 » by Ruzious » Thu Jul 30, 2020 6:55 pm

payitforward wrote:Important point: all of these proposed trades are way way speculative; they ain't happening! So, there's no point in saying, e.g., "PIF wants to trade Rui -- that's awful!"

All we're doing here is wondering what far-fetched ideas could turn out to be big-time positives for the Wizards.


Correct. And it's fun.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#1708 » by DCZards » Thu Jul 30, 2020 8:07 pm

payitforward wrote:I think a similar thing could be said about TBJ -- that he is underrated (e.g. by you in the proposed trade) b/c he isn't a big-time scorer, etc.

In fact, I don't rate Bridges higher than Brown at all. Why? Because of how good TBJ is already, yet he is almost three full years younger than Bridges. Troy turned 21 yesterday. Mikal Bridges turns 24 in August. &, keep in mind, this is being said by someone who was not happy when we picked TBJ in 2018 (I can be wrong, & in this case I was).

Between the two guys, if you look at all their numbers except defensive rebounding & two-point shooting, they are overall virtually indistinguishable in productivity. Their 3-point shooting was virtually identical this year -- both in shots/40 minutes & in %. For the rest, they were almost the same, except that Bridges is incredibly long & blocks more shots while Brown is a much better offensive rebounder.

When you look at defensive rebounding, Brown is way better. When you look at 2-point shooting, Bridges is way better -- but that is on very very few attempts; he only takes 5.5 2-pointers per 40 minutes. Every player gets some bunnies, & in his case they bump up his average b/c there are so few shots overall.

Now... Bridges is a very good player! I like him a lot. But, given the choice between them, I'd take Brown based on his outstanding productivity at 19 & 20 years old.

So... what about a different trade: Rui & our r2 pick to the Knicks for their #6 & Mitchell Robinson. If the Knicks FO thinks that Rui has out-performed his pick position at #9, & if they under-value Mitchell Robinson... it's just conceivable they'd go for that. & it would be a steal for the Wizards -- even though I'm going to get a raft of sh*t for saying so!
Spoiler:
Actually, I'll be really interested in Zards's reaction: he was all over Robinson 2 years ago, but he's also a strong supporter of Rui -- how about it Zards? :)
It'd be interesting to see whether Robinson & Bryant could be effective on the floor together.


I rarely open a "spoiler" but this time I did and lo and behold it's a question for yours truly. :D I still like Robinson a lot. He's been pretty impressive in spurts. You'd think the Knicks would play him more. I'd be all over a trade that yielded Robinson and the #6 for Rui and a second rd. pick.

There are two problems though. I seriously doubt that the Knicks would even consider such a trade. Rui and a second is simply not worth Robinson AND a lottery pick. I doubt that Robinson is that undervalued by the Knicks.

My other problem has to do with Robinson. He's played well when given the opportunity but you have to wonder why Robinson doesn't get more playing time and a bigger role. Does it have to do with him or the Knicks coaching/management? I'd have to do a serious check into any issues Robinson might have--not a hard worker, attitude, focus--before pulling a trigger on any trade for him.

But even if there are some question marks about Robinson, I'd probably still take the risk and trade for him. But, assuming the Knicks are looking to dump Robinson, I might offer a more realistic trade of Bryant for Robinson. That way the Zards replace their current young center (Bryant) with a young center (Robinson) who excels at rebounding and protecting the rim. And we get to keep Rui, a young PF with potential. Hopefully, Rui and Robinson can develop into an outstanding front court duo.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#1709 » by payitforward » Thu Jul 30, 2020 10:04 pm

bsilver wrote:PIF, know you weren't serious, but Knicks would never consider that trade. Robinson is their only true center and at PF are Taj Gibson, Bobby Portis, Julius Randle. OTOH, their management seems to be incompetent. I would love the trade.

You're right... not a chance! :) Especially since they have a new FO -- possibly not incompetent!

Yet... weirdly, it was that new FO that made me think of the trade.

These guys will feel zero responsibility for anything in the Knicks past. They'll have no sense of investment in a guy like Robinson. & they definitely will want to put their own mark on the franchise ASAP; that's human nature. So, if they read Rui extremely optimistically, & they would like to avoid taking what might seem a bigger chance by drafting at #6... who knows? It'd be a one-sided deal in our favor but a just-barely-conceivable one!

Revised version: what if it were Rui, Bryant, & our #9 pick for Robinson, their #6 pick & their #27 pick (from the Clippers)? I.e. we add Thomas Bryant from our side, & they add the #27 pick from their side.

That solves the problem of them being left without a Center, & we get another pick -- maybe nab Vernon Carey as a young C prospect? Are we giving up too much now? If so, would it work with Wagner instead of Bryant?
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#1710 » by payitforward » Thu Jul 30, 2020 10:19 pm

DCZards wrote:...I might offer a more realistic trade of Bryant for Robinson. That way the Zards replace their current young center (Bryant) with a young center (Robinson) who excels at rebounding and protecting the rim. And we get to keep Rui, a young PF with potential. Hopefully, Rui and Robinson can develop into an outstanding front court duo.

Aaaah, didn't see this before I wrote my response to bsilver.

Comparing the above to my revised trade, you can see I'm offering more -- taking Robinson & Bryant out of the picture leaves my deal as Rui plus #9 for #6 & #27. Since I'd hesitate before that partial deal, I guess that means I don't think Bryant is enough to give for Robinson. I.e. we seem to make out on that Robinson <> Bryant deal on its own.

I wonder whether that's really true.... Actually, it's an extremely interesting idea, Zards -- a couple of R2 picks who clearly should have gone in R1. One of them a 90% offense guy the other a 90% defense guy, & each of them with legitimate questions about his ability to develop the missing part of his game!

A lot to think about.... & now I wish nate would chime in; he'd have an interesting POV on this. How about you, Ruz -- what do you think about this idea?
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#1711 » by Dark Faze » Sun Aug 2, 2020 2:26 pm

Is there anyway we could make some sort of sign and trade for Montrezl in the offseason?

Bryant + Smith + Robinson for Montrezl.

We're at 103 million as is for next year. The outgoing wiz contracts total 18 million, which is around what I'd expect Montrezl to make. So say we keep our cap number except adding Montrezl and losing the above three. Add 15 million for Bertans, that's 118 million. Add our first round pick in the 4.4 mil or so range. 122.4 cap number + a mil or so from a second rounder and such.

Why for Clips: Trying to avoid lux tax by extending both Marcus and Montrezl. Clips can drop both Ish and Jerome in summer of 2021. Gives them a decent replacement for Montrezl at probably half of what he'll make in Bryant which allows them to sign Marcus.

Now being fair--it's unlikely because Ballmer would probably no problem just keeping both and paying the tax, and if he wants to avoid the tax then I imagine Marcus would be the sacrificial lamb, not Montrezl, but this is just a hypothetical.

Wall/Beal/Okoro(Avdija pls)/Rui/Montrezl---not bad.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#1712 » by payitforward » Sun Aug 2, 2020 3:05 pm

You end your proposed trade by giving some reasons it could not happen. There are a few others. For one thing, they just dumped Robinson for nothing back: why would they take him back? They have no reason to want Ish either.

If they wanted to trade Harrell, I imagine they'd want equal value -- don't you? On top of which, trading Harrell to make it easier to keep Marcus Morris...? Why would they want to keep Marcus Morris?
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#1713 » by TGW » Wed Aug 5, 2020 6:59 pm

patman66 wrote:If the premise is that the guy washington wants is no longer there, I would think the celts would want to clear out the bottom of the roster and not kanter.

Celts out 17, 26, 30 Porier, Edwards and Green
Celts in 9, 39 and Ish Smith.

Then what would be nice for the green is Semi, who is a thibs type of guy all the way and the two 2nds for Bullock who is not a thibs type of guy.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#1714 » by payitforward » Wed Aug 5, 2020 8:00 pm

TGW wrote:
patman66 wrote:If the premise is that the guy washington wants is no longer there, I would think the celts would want to clear out the bottom of the roster and not kanter.

Celts out 17, 26, 30 Porier, Edwards and Green
Celts in 9, 39 and Ish Smith.

Then what would be nice for the green is Semi, who is a thibs type of guy all the way and the two 2nds for Bullock who is not a thibs type of guy.

Where is the original of this trade idea? I missed it...

Why ever would we trade anything at all for Poirier, Edwards & Green? They are worth less than zero.

Tell you what -- we'll give you both our picks & Ish; you give us 17, 26, 30 & Robert Williams.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#1715 » by patman66 » Wed Aug 5, 2020 11:44 pm

payitforward wrote:
TGW wrote:
patman66 wrote:If the premise is that the guy washington wants is no longer there, I would think the celts would want to clear out the bottom of the roster and not kanter.

Celts out 17, 26, 30 Porier, Edwards and Green
Celts in 9, 39 and Ish Smith.

Then what would be nice for the green is Semi, who is a thibs type of guy all the way and the two 2nds for Bullock who is not a thibs type of guy.

Where is the original of this trade idea? I missed it...

Why ever would we trade anything at all for Poirier, Edwards & Green? They are worth less than zero.
aine
Tell you what -- we'll give you both our picks & Ish; you give us 17, 26, 30 & Robert Williams.


Because you get a first rd pick and we have to make the salary match. You want to keep Smith fine he isn't even a target. My point in asking for him, was that I did not see the value to the wizards in keeping a 32 y/o pg who is expiring. With Wall returning and Napier on the team, I thought Edwards would be a fit if one of the three first rd picks going to the Wiz was not used to select a pg. Green Makes 800,000 and his contract is not guaranteed and Poirier makes 2.5 and may well go back to Europe. Edwards makes 1.8 mill and that is guaranteed.

And you asking for the 30th pick and Williams for Smith is off. I have not seen any proposals to trade a late first for Smith on this board.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#1716 » by payitforward » Fri Aug 7, 2020 1:20 pm

patman -- you are absolutely right that the trade I suggested was one-sided in favor of the Wizards. Which I did b/c I thought yours was the same except in favor of the Celtics.

Let me try to be more reasonable! If by "keep Smith, fine" you mean the trade might be our #9 & 39 (more likely #37 -- it's the Bulls' pick) for your #17, 26 & 30, I think that's something of an over-pay on your side. Closer would be our #9 for your #s 17, 26 & your R2 pick next year (likely to be low).

A lot would depend on who was available at #9 -- i.e. how much either team liked the possible picks.

As to players, Ish is a solid back-up at a reasonable salary, & he's expiring. I don't think it's likely we would be so eager to dump him that we'd take on dead salary to get it done. Nor do I believe that Poirier is going to leave $2.5m on the table to play in Europe. & I regard Edwards as having no value -- he's not an NBA player IMO.

Make sense?

Btw, I hope we keep Shabazz Napier, but I'm not sure we will. He would make a terrific backup PG for the Celtics!
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#1717 » by nate33 » Fri Aug 7, 2020 3:45 pm

payitforward wrote:
DCZards wrote:...I might offer a more realistic trade of Bryant for Robinson. That way the Zards replace their current young center (Bryant) with a young center (Robinson) who excels at rebounding and protecting the rim. And we get to keep Rui, a young PF with potential. Hopefully, Rui and Robinson can develop into an outstanding front court duo.

Aaaah, didn't see this before I wrote my response to bsilver.

Comparing the above to my revised trade, you can see I'm offering more -- taking Robinson & Bryant out of the picture leaves my deal as Rui plus #9 for #6 & #27. Since I'd hesitate before that partial deal, I guess that means I don't think Bryant is enough to give for Robinson. I.e. we seem to make out on that Robinson <> Bryant deal on its own.

I wonder whether that's really true.... Actually, it's an extremely interesting idea, Zards -- a couple of R2 picks who clearly should have gone in R1. One of them a 90% offense guy the other a 90% defense guy, & each of them with legitimate questions about his ability to develop the missing part of his game!

A lot to think about.... & now I wish nate would chime in; he'd have an interesting POV on this. How about you, Ruz -- what do you think about this idea?

The most important job for a center is defense, and Robinson unquestionably has better defensive potential than Bryant. I'd certainly prefer the idealized, fully-developed version of Robinson over the idealized, fully-developed version of Bryant. The one thing that gives me pause about a Bryant/Robinson trade is that I absolutely love Bryant's demeanor and work ethic. I KNOW that kid is going to work as hard as he can to get better and better. I don't have a good feel for Robinson. If he lacks work ethic, then Bryant may pan out to be the better player even though he clearly has less physical tools to work with.

But all that said, I'd still pull the trigger on a Bryant/Robinson trade, even if we throw in some 2nd round picks. Ultimately, there is a cap on the success of this team with Bryant at center. He just doesn't have quick enough feet to do the job defensively. They could probably be a good regular season team, but Bryant would get exposed in the playoffs as teams go small and force him to defend in space. Robinson, on the other hand, has the chance to be the next Tyson Chandler. And Chandler won a ring and DPOY.

I don't think talk of a Hachimura for Robinson trade would pan out. Our team has no natural PF's other than Hachimura, and the Knicks ONLY have power forwards. Even if both teams thought the deal was fair talent-wise, it still wouldn't make sense position-wise.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#1718 » by payitforward » Fri Aug 7, 2020 7:02 pm

Great analysis, nate. And... it gave me a related idea (keeping in mind that the Knicks FO is new & will want to turn over that awful roster in a hurry).

They have 4 PFs: Randle, Portis, Harkless & Gibson. Harkless has expired (but they have his Bird rights), & they can decline Gibson's option. Portis they are stuck with for a year.

What if we thought about trading them both Rui & Bryant? If we took back Mitchell Robinson & their #6 pick this year, what more would we have to give them? Be willing to give them? Our #37 pick? Sure. But, would that be enough?

How about Jerome Robinson instead of that pick? Rui, Bryant & Jerome Robinson for their #6 pick & Mitchell Robinson.

Ridiculous idea? Odd, but workable idea? Would take some work to satisfy the trade rules, but I think it could be done. Perhaps we'd have to take back Taj Gibson...?
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#1719 » by thricethefun » Fri Aug 7, 2020 7:17 pm

payitforward wrote:Great analysis, nate. And... it gave me a related idea (keeping in mind that the Knicks FO is new & will want to turn over that awful roster in a hurry).

They have 4 PFs: Randle, Portis, Harkless & Gibson. Harkless has expired (but they have his Bird rights), & they can decline Gibson's option. Portis they are stuck with for a year.

What if we thought about trading them both Rui & Bryant? If we took back Mitchell Robinson & their #6 pick this year, what more would we have to give them? Be willing to give them? Our #37 pick? Sure. But, would that be enough?

How about Jerome Robinson instead of that pick? Rui, Bryant & Jerome Robinson for their #6 pick & Mitchell Robinson.

Ridiculous idea? Odd, but workable idea? Would take some work to satisfy the trade rules, but I think it could be done. Perhaps we'd have to take back Taj Gibson...?


If we were going to trade for a Knicks player I might try to grab Julius Randle instead of Mitch. No Julius doesn't play any defense but at least he'd be a great third option for us to go along with Wall and Beal. With Bertans stretching the floor we could have a top 5 offense next year with that crew. Yes our defense would still be garbage but I don't really see that improving anytime soon with Brooks anyway. May as well try to go all in on offense.

Trade would have to look like Bryant + Smith + one of our other (non Rui) young guys for Randle
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#1720 » by nate33 » Fri Aug 7, 2020 8:39 pm

thricethefun wrote:
payitforward wrote:Great analysis, nate. And... it gave me a related idea (keeping in mind that the Knicks FO is new & will want to turn over that awful roster in a hurry).

They have 4 PFs: Randle, Portis, Harkless & Gibson. Harkless has expired (but they have his Bird rights), & they can decline Gibson's option. Portis they are stuck with for a year.

What if we thought about trading them both Rui & Bryant? If we took back Mitchell Robinson & their #6 pick this year, what more would we have to give them? Be willing to give them? Our #37 pick? Sure. But, would that be enough?

How about Jerome Robinson instead of that pick? Rui, Bryant & Jerome Robinson for their #6 pick & Mitchell Robinson.

Ridiculous idea? Odd, but workable idea? Would take some work to satisfy the trade rules, but I think it could be done. Perhaps we'd have to take back Taj Gibson...?


If we were going to trade for a Knicks player I might try to grab Julius Randle instead of Mitch. No Julius doesn't play any defense but at least he'd be a great third option for us to go along with Wall and Beal. With Bertans stretching the floor we could have a top 5 offense next year with that crew. Yes our defense would still be garbage but I don't really see that improving anytime soon with Brooks anyway. May as well try to go all in on offense.

Trade would have to look like Bryant + Smith + one of our other (non Rui) young guys for Randle

No thanks on Randle. This team needs defense, not offense.

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