Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII

[Dark Faze]

Here's a pretty simple question--if we don't project Troy Brown Jr to be a starter long term, then what is the purpose in developing him?

We'd essentially be developing a 6th man talent that we either pay market value to keep, or are developing for the benefit of some other team.

That isn't to say that you should never develop any players you don't believe in long term, but particularly with 1st rounders, I'm extremely willing to move said player to acquire a late 1st, or maybe to move up higher in the draft, or part of a trade down package.

[Ruzious]

Here's a pretty simple question--if we don't project Troy Brown Jr to be a starter long term, then what is the purpose in developing him?

We'd essentially be developing a 6th man talent that we either pay market value to keep, or are developing for the benefit of some other team.

That isn't to say that you should never develop any players you don't believe in long term, but particularly with 1st rounders, I'm extremely willing to move said player to acquire a late 1st, or maybe to move up higher in the draft, or part of a trade down package.

A very valid question that the team should not ignore - though I expect they will.

[dckingsfan]

Here's a pretty simple question--if we don't project Troy Brown Jr to be a starter long term, then what is the purpose in developing him?

We'd essentially be developing a 6th man talent that we either pay market value to keep, or are developing for the benefit of some other team.

That isn't to say that you should never develop any players you don't believe in long term, but particularly with 1st rounders, I'm extremely willing to move said player to acquire a late 1st, or maybe to move up higher in the draft, or part of a trade down package.

A very valid question that the team should not ignore - though I expect they will.

To add - Nate pointed out that he was the one player that "fit" the worst...

[payitforward]

Pif, keep in mind that Brooklyn is the same organization that signed DeAndre Jordan to a 4/$40 million contract - to start over Allen and because he's buds with Kyrie irving and Kevin Durant. They're a classic team that looks good on paper but won't achieve anything, imo.

Fair enough -- & we'll get to see. Not in that we're likely to acquire Allen, but if you are right then they'll give him up for very little. Or give up on him.

[payitforward]

Here's a pretty simple question--if we don't project Troy Brown Jr to be a starter long term, then what is the purpose in developing him?

We'd essentially be developing a 6th man talent that we either pay market value to keep, or are developing for the benefit of some other team.

That isn't to say that you should never develop any players you don't believe in long term, but particularly with 1st rounders, I'm extremely willing to move said player to acquire a late 1st, or maybe to move up higher in the draft, or part of a trade down package.

Wow....

Here's a guy drafted at age 18, comes into the league having just turned 19 & has quite a good rookie season (though he didn't play nearly enough), then returns for his 2d year having just turned 20 years old & proceeds to improve in every possible area & to play at a way above average NBA level.

So... no reason to believe in him long term -- let's give up on him! But, Rui Hachimura, who is a year and a half older than Troy Brown & not anywhere near as good a player so far... there's the guy to "project... to be a starter long term!"

Sometimes I wonder what game some of you are watching. One between your ears it seems.

[payitforward]

Here's a pretty simple question--if we don't project Troy Brown Jr to be a starter long term, then what is the purpose in developing him?

We'd essentially be developing a 6th man talent that we either pay market value to keep, or are developing for the benefit of some other team.

That isn't to say that you should never develop any players you don't believe in long term, but particularly with 1st rounders, I'm extremely willing to move said player to acquire a late 1st, or maybe to move up higher in the draft, or part of a trade down package.

A very valid question that the team should not ignore - though I expect they will.

To add - Nate pointed out that he was the one player that "fit" the worst...

Right... let's find players that "fit" a 21-47 team.

[dckingsfan]

A very valid question that the team should not ignore - though I expect they will.

To add - Nate pointed out that he was the one player that "fit" the worst...

Right... let's find players that "fit" a 21-47 team.

- you make a good point - and in no way am I trying to knock it.

Counterpoint is that with Wall/Beal/Bertans (yeah, I am using Bertans) then would he fit the roster with that group? If you believe no, then, well?

I am going to assume that group below would win more than 21 games. I guess I will put my marker down that the following roster is at least a .450 roster in the east (a big unproveable jump). So, if you could package a player like Brown to get a player that fits better or to augment a trade (for a rim protector for example)...

Wall, Smith
Beal, Robinson, Matthews
Bonga, Bertans, Schofield
Hachimura, Bertans
Bryant, Wagner
+ First Round Pick

Just saying, like all players on this roster - none should be protected and if Tommy were to believe that one didn't "fit" - yeah, I can see the thinking anyway.

Now back to watch the sh%tshow that is the R convention, the hurricane, the fires and the unnecessary and infuriating shootings. Thanks for posting this to take my mind off those things for 3 minutes.

[payitforward]

To add - Nate pointed out that he was the one player that "fit" the worst...

Right... let's find players that "fit" a 21-47 team.

- you make a good point - and in no way am I trying to knock it.

Counterpoint is that with Wall/Beal/Bertans (yeah, I am using Bertans) then would he fit the roster with that group? If you believe no, then, well?

I am going to assume that group below would win more than 21 games. I guess I will put my marker down that the following roster is at least a .450 roster in the east (a big unproveable jump). So, if you could package a player like Brown to get a player that fits better or to augment a trade (for a rim protector for example)...

Wall, Smith
Beal, Robinson, Matthews
Bonga, Bertans, Schofield
Hachimura, Bertans
Bryant, Wagner
+ First Round Pick

Just saying, like all players on this roster - none should be protected and if Tommy were to believe that one didn't "fit" - yeah, I can see the thinking anyway.

Now back to watch the sh%tshow that is the R convention, the hurricane, the fires and the unnecessary and infuriating shootings. Thanks for posting this to take my mind off those things for 3 minutes.

Those shootings aren't "unnecessary and infuriating" -- they are evil. Call a thing by its name.

Well, we won 21 games in a shortened season. Let's say we would have won 30 games if Covid hadn't come along. A jump to .450 implies a 37-45 record. Exciting!

& you are certainly right that no player should be protected from trade -- it's all about the deal. Still, fit or no fit, Troy Brown was one of our best players this year. Look at his numbers. If you remove him, & replace him with an average NBA journeyman 3 we get worse not better.

Now, if we could start Bertans at the 3, fine. His scoring efficiency is so outstanding that it would make his other shortcomings no problem. Thing is, no one has ever played Bertans at the 3, despite the above. Why do you think that is? Is it because they haven't read fan forums like ours where we keep saying that it would be a good idea? Plus, you just installed Rui as our starting 4. Do you have the mistaken idea that Rui Hachimura excelled as a rookie? He didn't.

So, Bertans stays where he is. Wall comes back -- that makes us better to be sure. I guess Jerome Robinson gets Brown's minutes. Does that make us better? Not exactly. It makes us worse. A lot worse.

That team you list above? That's a 30-35 win team barring substantial improvements from a whole bunch of guys. & if they get better, what does that have to do with moving Brown? & why isn't he going to get better too? He's shown that he is developing -- and fast. I expect it to continue.

OTOH... if you can trade Brown for Jarrett Allen, sure! Again, anybody can be traded -- & that would get us an outstanding player in return.

[dckingsfan]

Right... let's find players that "fit" a 21-47 team.

- you make a good point - and in no way am I trying to knock it.

Counterpoint is that with Wall/Beal/Bertans (yeah, I am using Bertans) then would he fit the roster with that group? If you believe no, then, well?

I am going to assume that group below would win more than 21 games. I guess I will put my marker down that the following roster is at least a .450 roster in the east (a big unproveable jump). So, if you could package a player like Brown to get a player that fits better or to augment a trade (for a rim protector for example)...

Wall, Smith
Beal, Robinson, Matthews
Bonga, Bertans, Schofield
Hachimura, Bertans
Bryant, Wagner
+ First Round Pick

Just saying, like all players on this roster - none should be protected and if Tommy were to believe that one didn't "fit" - yeah, I can see the thinking anyway.

Now back to watch the sh%tshow that is the R convention, the hurricane, the fires and the unnecessary and infuriating shootings. Thanks for posting this to take my mind off those things for 3 minutes.

Those shootings aren't "unnecessary and infuriating" -- they are evil. Call a thing by its name.

Well, we won 21 games in a shortened season. Let's say we would have won 30 games if Covid hadn't come along. A jump to .450 implies a 37-45 record. Exciting!

& you are certainly right that no player should be protected from trade -- it's all about the deal. Still, fit or no fit, Troy Brown was one of our best players this year. Look at his numbers. If you remove him, & replace him with an average NBA journeyman 3 we get worse not better.

Now, if we could start Bertans at the 3, fine. His scoring efficiency is so outstanding that it would make his other shortcomings no problem. Thing is, no one has ever played Bertans at the 3, despite the above. Why do you think that is? Is it because they haven't read fan forums like ours where we keep saying that it would be a good idea? Plus, you just installed Rui as our starting 4. Do you have the mistaken idea that Rui Hachimura excelled as a rookie? He didn't.

So, Bertans stays where he is. Wall comes back -- that makes us better to be sure. I guess Jerome Robinson gets Brown's minutes. Does that make us better? Not exactly. It makes us worse. A lot worse.

That team you list above? That's a 30-35 win team barring substantial improvements from a whole bunch of guys. & if they get better, what does that have to do with moving Brown? & why isn't he going to get better too? He's shown that he is developing -- and fast. I expect it to continue.

OTOH... if you can trade Brown for Jarrett Allen, sure! Again, anybody can be traded -- & that would get us an outstanding player in return.

Yep, evil is a better word. Is the combination even better "unnecessary, infuriating and evil"?

Starting Bertans at SF and Rui as a good rookie is a bit of a strawman, no? Even in my depth chart I have him as a backup forward. And I have not been on the Rui bandwagon as a rookie.

But yes, I think that Robinson is going to get the backup SG minutes. I think that is "unnecessary and infuriating".

But Wall/Smith is order of magnitudes better than our starting PG rotation this year? I would like to see Beal/Matthews, I think that is much better as well. And a rotation of Bonga, Hachimura, Bertans at forward is also going to be better (yeah, you could try to make me quantify that but... not happening).

And starting with a healthy Bryant, Wagner will also be better.

Now let's get back to Brown. Yes to Brown for Allen (wait, is that irrational ). Or Brown and Wagner for a rim protector? Or? But it all comes down to the deal.

Now, that isn't to say we wouldn't want Brown - he is going to be solid. But... if you were Tommy and you believed he doesn't fit - yeah, I can see the thinking...

[payitforward]

dckingsfan -- I apologize for the exasperated tone of my previous post & thank you for the gentlemanly tone of yours.

Not in my defense but as explanation let me just say that I am finding it hard right now to shed the impact of watching this country descend (or at least threaten to descend) into dictatorship & Fascism. When that a##hole is out of here (along w/ the equally responsible set of evil men who prop him up), I'll be able to take a breath.

(I don't think, btw, that your combo phrase is better than just plain "evil." All it does is create a space for someone to respond by claiming that these acts are, somehow, "necessary.")

[payitforward]

...Starting Bertans at SF and Rui as a good rookie is a bit of a strawman, no? Even in my depth chart I have him as a backup forward. And I have not been on the Rui bandwagon as a rookie....

...I think that Robinson is going to get the backup SG minutes....

But Wall/Smith is order of magnitudes better than our starting PG rotation this year...

I would like to see Beal/Matthews, I think that is much better as well. And a rotation of Bonga, Hachimura, Bertans at forward is also going to be better (yeah, you could try to make me quantify that but... not happening).

And starting with a healthy Bryant, Wagner will also be better....

If Wall comes back strong, we'll be a better team -- obviously! But, John can only play @35 of the 240 player-minutes of each game. We'll have to see how much of a difference he winds up making in our record.

Beal is Beal -- & I like Mathews so far, but I can't predict on him, & I certainly can't predict on Jerome Robinson. Can't imagine we'll be much different based on those guys.

I do expect Bonga to improve, & I sure hope Rui does as well -- why should he not? Bertans is a veteran; he'll play next year like he played this year. But none of this amounts to an indication that we'll be a lot better next year.

...Now let's get back to Brown. Yes to Brown for Allen (wait, is that irrational ). Or Brown and Wagner for a rim protector? Or? But it all comes down to the deal.

Now, that isn't to say we wouldn't want Brown - he is going to be solid. But... if you were Tommy and you believed he doesn't fit - yeah, I can see the thinking.

Brown for Allen -- absolutely! & Brown plus Wagner for Allen is actually better! Moe isn't a good NBA player.

But, then you're back to Brown & "...fit" -- which I don't get.

Fit what exactly? What is the goal here? If it's to compete for the EC title, that's not happening any time soon -- sorry. & if you want it as a possibility for a few years from now, well then you better keep Troy Brown. We've already made a foolish error in not taking a R1 pick for Bertans. Let's not compound it.

[dckingsfan]

↑↑↑ Down to two things PIF.

First, I think having Wall/Smith alone makes us a better team than this year. After all, who was our starting PG this year at the beginning of the season? To me that is quite an improvement on 48 of our 240 minutes and at the most important position on the court (opinion).

Second, I was all in on Bertans for an R1 pick. But a Brown trade vs. a Bertans non-trade are independent events. The "fit" part comes in when a roster is evaluated. There is no quantitative analysis we can do on "fit". It just tells you where you have assets that you might trade for better or better fitting assets. Where the quantitative analysis comes in is when you evaluate a trade scenario in a longitudinal fashion.

So, if Tommy started to explore trades for Brown, I could understand it. I am sure he would listen to any trade requests... so there is that. But if he was going to be proactive and target underperforming assets based upon fit. Okay, I would be fine with that.

[doclinkin]

dckingsfan -- I apologize for the exasperated tone of my previous post & thank you for the gentlemanly tone of yours.

Not in my defense but as explanation let me just say that I am finding it hard right now to shed the impact of watching this country descend (or at least threaten to descend) into dictatorship & Fascism. When that a##hole is out of here (along w/ the equally responsible set of evil men who prop him up), I'll be able to take a breath.

Oh nonsense, you were prickly before Trump and you'll be prickly after and it's one of the key reasons I like you.

[payitforward]

dckingsfan -- I apologize for the exasperated tone of my previous post & thank you for the gentlemanly tone of yours.

Not in my defense but as explanation let me just say that I am finding it hard right now to shed the impact of watching this country descend (or at least threaten to descend) into dictatorship & Fascism. When that a##hole is out of here (along w/ the equally responsible set of evil men who prop him up), I'll be able to take a breath.

Oh nonsense, you were prickly before Trump and you'll be prickly after and it's one of the key reasons I like you.

I like you too, doc. But, I also like Zards, for example. &, after all, there's a limit to everything -- not to mention who wants to be completely predictable?

So, actually, I've been working on being a good deal less prickly.

Anybody notice? What -- no? Buncha ungrateful #$%@&*s....

[pcbothwel]

One player I am going to keep an eye on is Goga Bitadze for the Pacers. I was high on him last year in the draft, and always thought he was a peculiar pick for the Pacers as they have Sabonis and Turner.
But now with Nate Mac fired and the rumor of MDA becoming the coach, I could certainly see him traded.
I love his shotblocking and rebounding potential and think he would be a great fit here.

Wagner is definitely a better fit for them and I wouldn't hesitate to move some mix of Wagner, Robinson, 37, etc. in order to get Goga.

Wagner, Robinson, 37 for Goga, Leaf, and 54 gives the Pacers a talent upgrade, saves 1.5M, and a high 2nd... while we get the better prospect and fit behind Bryant.

That said... getting Tillman or Oturu at 37 is also appealing.

Thoughts?

[Ruzious]

One player I am going to keep an eye on is Goga Bitadze for the Pacers. I was high on him last year in the draft, and always thought he was a peculiar pick for the Pacers as they have Sabonis and Turner.
But now with Nate Mac fired and the rumor of MDA becoming the coach, I could certainly see him traded.
I love his shotblocking and rebounding potential and think he would be a great fit here.

Wagner is definitely a better fit for them and I wouldn't hesitate to move some mix of Wagner, Robinson, 37, etc. in order to get Goga.

Wagner, Robinson, 37 for Goga, Leaf, and 54 gives the Pacers a talent upgrade, saves 1.5M, and a high 2nd... while we get the better prospect and fit behind Bryant.

That said... getting Tillman or Oturu at 37 is also appealing.

Thoughts?

I know Dat was a big Goga fan - I think he wanted the Wiz to take him last year, but he slid to 18. Gotta figure he doesn't fit in Mike D's smallball game, but he was not impressive this season. Can't say I'm a fan. Otoh, if you can get him for junk - might as well do it.

[pcbothwel]

One player I am going to keep an eye on is Goga Bitadze for the Pacers. I was high on him last year in the draft, and always thought he was a peculiar pick for the Pacers as they have Sabonis and Turner.
But now with Nate Mac fired and the rumor of MDA becoming the coach, I could certainly see him traded.
I love his shotblocking and rebounding potential and think he would be a great fit here.

Wagner is definitely a better fit for them and I wouldn't hesitate to move some mix of Wagner, Robinson, 37, etc. in order to get Goga.

Wagner, Robinson, 37 for Goga, Leaf, and 54 gives the Pacers a talent upgrade, saves 1.5M, and a high 2nd... while we get the better prospect and fit behind Bryant.

That said... getting Tillman or Oturu at 37 is also appealing.

Thoughts?

I know Dat was a big Goga fan - I think he wanted the Wiz to take him last year, but he slid to 18. Gotta figure he doesn't fit in Mike D's smallball game, but he was not impressive this season. Can't say I'm a fan. Otoh, if you can get him for junk - might as well do it.

He is very much a Vuc / Nurkic type big... He's not the pure defender/passer that Nurkic is, but he's a better scorer/shooter. And he's not the offensive threat that Vuc is, but he has better feet and a better rim protector... So an interesting mix of both.

I think he would pair well as a backup to Bryant.

[payitforward]

I don't understand this at all. Not one bit. Unless you think Leaf is a meaningful asset, which I don't. Ditto Robinson.

So, it amounts to Wagner/#37 for Bitadze/#54 -- which I give an unequivocal hard pass! I'd much rather have whoever the best guy is at any position on the board at #37 than I would Bitadze. Certainly I'd rather have Tillman. I'd much much rather have Vernon Carey.

If I wanted to trade Wagner & #37, it would be to move up in the draft.

Plus -- how can this trade give Indiana a "talent upgrade," while we get the "better prospect?"

[TGW]

Goga is still on my radar as a player we need to target. I saw the Pacers play the Lakers in the bubble, and he was giving Anthony Davis fits on the defensive end:

Watch on YouTube

And he has range to the NBA 3.

[pcbothwel]

I don't understand this at all. Not one bit. Unless you think Leaf is a meaningful asset, which I don't. Ditto Robinson.

So, it amounts to Wagner/#37 for Bitadze/#54 -- which I give an unequivocal hard pass! I'd much rather have whoever the best guy is at any position on the board at #37 than I would Bitadze. Certainly I'd rather have Tillman. I'd much much rather have Vernon Carey.

If I wanted to trade Wagner & #37, it would be to move up in the draft.

Plus -- how can this trade give Indiana a "talent upgrade," while we get the "better prospect?"

Goga is a better prospect than any of the Centers at 37, And I love Tillman.

Talent upgrade vs Better prospect: Leaf sucks, while Robinson is at least a roster worthy guard. And Wagner is more developed than Goga as he is 2 years older and has an extra year of NBA experience... But I think Goga will end up being the better player in 1-2 years.

That said... Im open to removing the pick swap all together... Or having IND add in 21/22 2nd to help.