ImageImageImageImageImage

Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII

Moderators: nate33, montestewart, LyricalRico

payitforward
RealGM
Posts: 14,121
And1: 4,355
Joined: May 02, 2012
Location: On the Atlantic

Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#1901 » by payitforward » Mon Sep 7, 2020 12:03 am

This is interesting, ProcessDoctor -- thanks for stopping by.

No to the first scenario: I don't think Tobias Harris is anything special, do you?

The 2d scenario offers more of interest. But, there are a couple of problems. Most obvious: who's our PG? Plus, looking at need/value, perhaps it's a little better for you than for us?

How about this: we add Wagner & $2m from our side, & you add Milton & the #34 pick from your side?

Btw, I'll be surprised if you get any other responses that are even lukewarm. There's a whole lot of fan attachment to John Wall. It may be excessive, but the reasons themselves are good ones. The only real reason anyone would want to move him is that his salary really makes it difficult to rebuild the team.

Question: what's the general assessment of Elton Brand's GM work on your board?
Remember -- if you don't like the post above: blame Doc not me.
User avatar
doclinkin
General Manager
Posts: 9,746
And1: 1,900
Joined: Jul 26, 2004
Location: .wizuds.

Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#1902 » by doclinkin » Mon Sep 7, 2020 2:12 am

ProcessDoctor wrote:Sixers fan in peace. Some talk of Wall on our board. Would you guys do either of the following trades?


Harris/Scott/#21 for Wall/#9

or

Horford/Richardson/#21 for Wall/#9


Regardless of your reception from the fans on here, the front office has fully committed to Wall in his rehabilitation. Their staff seems to think it likely he comes back 100% with an improved Jumpshot and better game from his time essentially as an assistant coach. As such the prevailing sentiment is that to swap him out now would be a) selling low and b) violating the investment they have in him as a person and a talent. They think he comes back as the #1 overall talent he was drafted as.

IN that respect you are asking the team to jettison the better player attached to the higher draft pick simply because of money. This team has already gone into the lux tax in past years for teams with losing seasons. With multiple billionaires in ownership, money is not the key consideration here. It would be a pretty hard sell locally to dump a player they have so much invested in, simply to dig out from bad money decisions made by the prior GM. Additionally our other top talent has stated he re-upped here envisioning Wall's return. They both want to give it a run to see what they can do with both players improved (Beal has steadily gotten better, and Wall had been playing his last two years on bone spurs and was unable to commit to defense for instance, due to constant pain. Those are gone, and he has committed to adding the long ball to his game while in rehab for so long, since the game has emphasized that skill).

So. No. The offer is not a tempting one to the front office, to the key personnel (who are consulted in FO moves) and right, as PIF said, would occasion lusty boos from the fanbase. Not sweet enough to draw interest. We give up the better talent and the higher draft pick? For what? Money?
payitforward
RealGM
Posts: 14,121
And1: 4,355
Joined: May 02, 2012
Location: On the Atlantic

Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#1903 » by payitforward » Mon Sep 7, 2020 1:13 pm

Well, forget the first idea, with Tobias Harris -- that's just silly. & Doc is exactly right that the other move would never fly.

I'm not sure he's altogether right to suggest it would just be about "money," as the move would also facilitate rebuilding. But, that's kind of a minor point. Even with my changes, it's no great bargain for us.

Basically, your FO -- w/ Brand as the titular head but apparently beholden to the "brilliance" of your ownership -- has wasted the enormous opportunity Sam Hinkie gave you. I'm afraid we will be unable to help you out of the hole you dug for yourself up there.

Apparently, Brand has now been given more authority. We'll see what he is able to do with it. I'm not sanguine.
Remember -- if you don't like the post above: blame Doc not me.
payitforward
RealGM
Posts: 14,121
And1: 4,355
Joined: May 02, 2012
Location: On the Atlantic

Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#1904 » by payitforward » Mon Sep 7, 2020 1:35 pm

Of course, it's always important to be open to trade ideas. So, if your main goal is to acquire the #9 pick, what would you give for it?

Let's start with the #21 pick & Shake Milton -- what would you add to that? Thybulle?
Remember -- if you don't like the post above: blame Doc not me.
User avatar
TGW
General Manager
Posts: 9,564
And1: 3,310
Joined: Oct 22, 2010

Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#1905 » by TGW » Mon Sep 7, 2020 3:46 pm

I'm definitely not opposed to moving Beal nor Wall, but these deals ain't it. The Philly trades suck.
Some random troll wrote:Not to sound negative, but this team is owned by an arrogant cheapskate, managed by a moron and coached by an idiot. Recipe for disaster.
User avatar
nate33
Forum Mod - Wizards
Forum Mod - Wizards
Posts: 56,165
And1: 9,642
Joined: Oct 28, 2002

Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#1906 » by nate33 » Tue Sep 8, 2020 12:44 pm

If you take out the pick swap, I'd probably do that Wall for Horford + Richardson trade. It saves the Wizards $2M this year, $3M (or $14M if Richardson opts out) next year, and $30M the year after that. Horford would be a good complement to Bryant as a player and a mentor. Richardson is still in the prime of his career and could hopefully reclaim his performance from Miami two years ago when he was an above-average 2-way guard.

If the Wizards draft Haliburton, the team will have a pretty well-balanced young core around Beal:

PG Haliburton/Ish
SG Beal/Brown
SF Richardson/Bonga
PF Hachimura/Bertans
C Bryant/Horford

Richardson and Horford help to address the defensive deficiencies. Haliburton should pan out to be a good defender at PG once he gets stronger. His length and innate court awareness will help him there. The oldest guy on the roster besides Horford and Ish is Bertans at age 27.

I'd like the trade even better if we replaced Richardson with Scott + Thybulle, but now I'm just getting greedy.
payitforward
RealGM
Posts: 14,121
And1: 4,355
Joined: May 02, 2012
Location: On the Atlantic

Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#1907 » by payitforward » Tue Sep 8, 2020 2:04 pm

nate33 wrote:If you take out the pick swap, I'd probably do that Wall for Horford + Richardson trade....

Agreed. & especially if...

nate33 wrote:Richardson... could... reclaim his performance from Miami two years ago when he was an above-average 2-way guard....

If the Wizards draft Haliburton, the team will have a pretty well-balanced young core around Beal...

I'd like the trade even better if we replaced Richardson with Scott + Thybulle, but now I'm just getting greedy.

Yes... :)

But, what if Haliburton is gone when our pick comes around: we have no one behind Ish (Brown to some degree?) & no young prospect at point guard. That's the reason I was pointing at Shake Milton -- he was a late pick in '18, but he is looking really promising so far.

So, consider this: what if we did include the pick swap, & they added Milton to the package they gave us?

In theory, you should be able to trade the #9 pick in a draft for the #20 & #22 in that same draft -- i.e. for 2 #21 picks, which means that the question comes down to whether Shake Milton is worth a #21 pick in a trade.

He might turn out to be -- he's become a dead-eye shooter this year. But, it's too soon to draw that conclusion. So... I'd want the #34 pick too -- & the #49 as well.

Now it's Horford, Richardson, Milton & the 3 picks (#21, 34 & 49) for Wall & the #9 pick. Plus, I'm giving them Schofield too (like it or not :)).

We take Poku at #21, Tillman at #34, Malachi Flynn at #37 & Mason Jones at #49.

Ish/Milton/Flynn
Beal/Richardson/Jones
Bonga/Brown
Rui/Bertans/Tillman
Bryant/Horford/Wagner/Poku

Ridiculous...? Yeah....
Remember -- if you don't like the post above: blame Doc not me.
payitforward
RealGM
Posts: 14,121
And1: 4,355
Joined: May 02, 2012
Location: On the Atlantic

Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#1908 » by payitforward » Tue Sep 8, 2020 2:13 pm

Of course, we are not going to trade John Wall. & anyway, my proposal above is so complicated that even I can't follow it.

Here's a simpler trade with Philly that Brand might do & which would be great for us: our #9 for Thybulle & their #21.
Remember -- if you don't like the post above: blame Doc not me.
payitforward
RealGM
Posts: 14,121
And1: 4,355
Joined: May 02, 2012
Location: On the Atlantic

Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#1909 » by payitforward » Tue Sep 8, 2020 2:17 pm

Then -- if Ruz is right & the Nets place a low value on the guy -- we trade that #21 & Wagner for Jarrett Allen.

We become a better team in a hurry!
Remember -- if you don't like the post above: blame Doc not me.
payitforward
RealGM
Posts: 14,121
And1: 4,355
Joined: May 02, 2012
Location: On the Atlantic

Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#1910 » by payitforward » Tue Sep 8, 2020 2:28 pm

The trade part of this should be here...
Frichuela wrote:I see two scenarios depending on who the Wiz draft:
1) If they get lucky and draft Big O at #9 (as Sam Vecenie and others are forecasting), then the obvious need is a 3&D wing. It is going to be challenging getting someone good for the MLE as Jerami Grant and Jae Crowder are unlikely to be available. Here, I would focus on two targets who are athletic and have already shown good defensive potential: Torrey Craig and Derrick Jones. Their 3-ball is a work in progress but better than other solid defensive options such as Hollis-Jefferson.
2) If they can't get Big O (or Wiseman), then it's likely they draft a wing with 3&D potential (Vassell, Okoro, Nesmith). In this case, as commented by many in this board, Noel should be the priority target.
Both of these scenarios are taking also into account that the Wiz can retain Bertans, at a not too expensive cost (hopefully $12-15mn/year...).

A third scenario would be a trade...A trade such as (Allen+Temple+#19 for Bryant+#9), would get us both a solid and promising rim protector plus a veteran serviceable 3&D wing. At #19, the Wiz could target a replacement for Bryant (Jalen Smith, Tillman), a guard (Terry) or a wing (S Bay -if available-, Bane, Green).
Remember -- if you don't like the post above: blame Doc not me.
pcbothwel
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,211
And1: 1,537
Joined: Jun 12, 2010
     

Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#1911 » by pcbothwel » Tue Sep 8, 2020 2:37 pm

payitforward wrote:
nate33 wrote:If you take out the pick swap, I'd probably do that Wall for Horford + Richardson trade....

Agreed. & especially if...

nate33 wrote:Richardson... could... reclaim his performance from Miami two years ago when he was an above-average 2-way guard....

If the Wizards draft Haliburton, the team will have a pretty well-balanced young core around Beal...

I'd like the trade even better if we replaced Richardson with Scott + Thybulle, but now I'm just getting greedy.

Yes... :)

But, what if Haliburton is gone when our pick comes around: we have no one behind Ish (Brown to some degree?) & no young prospect at point guard. That's the reason I was pointing at Shake Milton -- he was a late pick in '18, but he is looking really promising so far.

So, consider this: what if we did include the pick swap, & they added Milton to the package they gave us?

In theory, you should be able to trade the #9 pick in a draft for the #20 & #22 in that same draft -- i.e. for 2 #21 picks, which means that the question comes down to whether Shake Milton is worth a #21 pick in a trade.

He might turn out to be -- he's become a dead-eye shooter this year. But, it's too soon to draw that conclusion. So... I'd want the #34 pick too -- & the #49 as well.

Now it's Horford, Richardson, Milton & the 3 picks (#21, 34 & 49) for Wall & the #9 pick. Plus, I'm giving them Schofield too (like it or not :)).

We take Poku at #21, Tillman at #34, Malachi Flynn at #37 & Mason Jones at #49.

Ish/Milton/Flynn
Beal/Richardson/Jones
Bonga/Brown
Rui/Bertans/Tillman
Bryant/Horford/Wagner/Poku

Ridiculous...? Yeah....


A couple of issues.
1) $ Allocation: You'd have 50M+ in salary and 4 1st round picks from the last 3 years at the 4 & 5. Seems like a poor use of resources.
2) I have zero interest in trading down from 9 before knowing if Okongwu or Haliburton fall.
3) We owe it to ourselves to see mature/healthy Wall with Prime/Harden-Lite Beal for at least half a season before dumping Wall, let alone paying assets to do so.
4) Horford has some warning signs... Scoring efficiency was the lowest of his career, his Blocks/Steals are down, fouls are up, and he still doesnt draw fouls to take advantage of his strong FT%.... In 6 months I could see Wall being worth a bit more than Horford.
Ruzious
Forum Mod
Forum Mod
Posts: 41,052
And1: 6,906
Joined: Jul 17, 2001
       

Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#1912 » by Ruzious » Tue Sep 8, 2020 2:45 pm

payitforward wrote:Of course, we are not going to trade John Wall. & anyway, my proposal above is so complicated that even I can't follow it.

Here's a simpler trade with Philly that Brand might do & which would be great for us: our #9 for Thybulle & their #21.

Yes, I would do that unless Okongwu is available at 9. Granted, Thybulle doesn't do a lot on offense, but he can make 3's, and there's just nobody like him on defense.
"Look, you never know when you may need to borrow a cup of sugar, maybe some milk or a handgun" - Dan C. from Texas
User avatar
nate33
Forum Mod - Wizards
Forum Mod - Wizards
Posts: 56,165
And1: 9,642
Joined: Oct 28, 2002

Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#1913 » by nate33 » Tue Sep 8, 2020 3:42 pm

pcbothwel wrote:4) Horford has some warning signs... Scoring efficiency was the lowest of his career, his Blocks/Steals are down, fouls are up, and he still doesnt draw fouls to take advantage of his strong FT%.... In 6 months I could see Wall being worth a bit more than Horford.

No disagreement here. Wall will be a better player than Horford going forward. The big difference is that Horford costs $27.5M + 27M + $14.5M while Wall costs $41M + $44M + $47M
payitforward
RealGM
Posts: 14,121
And1: 4,355
Joined: May 02, 2012
Location: On the Atlantic

Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#1914 » by payitforward » Tue Sep 8, 2020 7:00 pm

Ruzious wrote:
payitforward wrote:Of course, we are not going to trade John Wall. & anyway, my proposal above is so complicated that even I can't follow it.

Here's a simpler trade with Philly that Brand might do & which would be great for us: our #9 for Thybulle & their #21.

Yes, I would do that unless Okongwu is available at 9. Granted, Thybulle doesn't do a lot on offense, but he can make 3's, and there's just nobody like him on defense.

Right, I'd thought about Okongeu -- it's a given that the trade doesn't go down until we see who's there ar #9.

I said "that Brand might do," because he was enamored of Thybulle, traded up to be sure to get him. It's possible he wouldn't go for this deal.
Remember -- if you don't like the post above: blame Doc not me.
Ruzious
Forum Mod
Forum Mod
Posts: 41,052
And1: 6,906
Joined: Jul 17, 2001
       

Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#1915 » by Ruzious » Tue Sep 8, 2020 7:08 pm

payitforward wrote:
Ruzious wrote:
payitforward wrote:Of course, we are not going to trade John Wall. & anyway, my proposal above is so complicated that even I can't follow it.

Here's a simpler trade with Philly that Brand might do & which would be great for us: our #9 for Thybulle & their #21.

Yes, I would do that unless Okongwu is available at 9. Granted, Thybulle doesn't do a lot on offense, but he can make 3's, and there's just nobody like him on defense.

Right, I'd thought about Okongeu -- it's a given that the trade doesn't go down until we see who's there ar #9.

I said "that Brand might do," because he was enamored of Thybulle, traded up to be sure to get him. It's possible he wouldn't go for this deal.

Understood, it's not a 100% sure thing that one of our trade ideas happens.
"Look, you never know when you may need to borrow a cup of sugar, maybe some milk or a handgun" - Dan C. from Texas
payitforward
RealGM
Posts: 14,121
And1: 4,355
Joined: May 02, 2012
Location: On the Atlantic

Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#1916 » by payitforward » Tue Sep 8, 2020 9:02 pm

If you've been keeping up with news about the Sixers, you know that -- once again -- they are changing how they run their FO. They'd been working "by committee" for a couple of years, but now Elton Brand will be given the last word. This should make much more efficient their collaborative process of pissing in the salad right before lunch.

I imagine Brand would like to start showing his power via a high R1 pick -- so maybe that trade of our #9 for Thybulle & their #21 really would work?
Remember -- if you don't like the post above: blame Doc not me.
Ruzious
Forum Mod
Forum Mod
Posts: 41,052
And1: 6,906
Joined: Jul 17, 2001
       

Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#1917 » by Ruzious » Tue Sep 8, 2020 9:36 pm

payitforward wrote:If you've been keeping up with news about the Sixers, you know that -- once again -- they are changing how they run their FO. They'd been working "by committee" for a couple of years, but now Elton Brand will be given the last word. This should make much more efficient their collaborative process of pissing in the salad right before lunch.

I imagine Brand would like to start showing his power via a high R1 pick -- so maybe that trade of our #9 for Thybulle & their #21 really would work?

Absolutely, and after their disappointing playoffs performance, Brand is under pressure to make significant moves - which could lead to mistakes on his part.
"Look, you never know when you may need to borrow a cup of sugar, maybe some milk or a handgun" - Dan C. from Texas
User avatar
nate33
Forum Mod - Wizards
Forum Mod - Wizards
Posts: 56,165
And1: 9,642
Joined: Oct 28, 2002

Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#1918 » by nate33 » Wed Sep 9, 2020 12:15 pm

Ruzious wrote:
payitforward wrote:If you've been keeping up with news about the Sixers, you know that -- once again -- they are changing how they run their FO. They'd been working "by committee" for a couple of years, but now Elton Brand will be given the last word. This should make much more efficient their collaborative process of pissing in the salad right before lunch.

I imagine Brand would like to start showing his power via a high R1 pick -- so maybe that trade of our #9 for Thybulle & their #21 really would work?

Absolutely, and after their disappointing playoffs performance, Brand is under pressure to make significant moves - which could lead to mistakes on his part.

The only problem is that the "significant moves" that Brand is likely to make will involve trading picks/prospects for win-now vets. We don't have any win-now vets to offer except Wall, Beal and Bertans (S&T), and they're all too expensive.

Maybe we could offer some type of Bertans+Wagner for Horford sign-and-trade and make them cough up a bunch of future 1sts to make it happen?
Ruzious
Forum Mod
Forum Mod
Posts: 41,052
And1: 6,906
Joined: Jul 17, 2001
       

Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#1919 » by Ruzious » Wed Sep 9, 2020 12:23 pm

Bertans is also a possible Milwaukee target - as Marvin Williams has just announced his retirement, and the Bucks will likely either reject their option to keep Ilyasova or trade him. Bucks also desperately need backcourt help.
"Look, you never know when you may need to borrow a cup of sugar, maybe some milk or a handgun" - Dan C. from Texas
User avatar
nate33
Forum Mod - Wizards
Forum Mod - Wizards
Posts: 56,165
And1: 9,642
Joined: Oct 28, 2002

Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#1920 » by nate33 » Wed Sep 9, 2020 12:31 pm

Ruzious wrote:Bertans is also a possible Milwaukee target - as Marvin Williams has just announced his retirement, and the Bucks will likely either reject their option to keep Ilyasova or trade him. Bucks also desperately need backcourt help.

I was looking at their payroll and couldn't really figure out a way to make a Bertans trade happen - not without sending back some of their remaining guard depth (George Hill). I guess they could opt in on Ilyasova's final year and then use him as ballast along with Robin Lopez, but that ultimately adds to their luxtax bill.

Any chance they let coach Budd go? Now THAT would be a good acquisition!

Return to Washington Wizards