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Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII

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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#941 » by nate33 » Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:34 pm

WallToWall wrote:"Washington’s plan — as evidenced by words and actions — is not to rebuild but to get healthy and make a run up the East standings next season. They have Beal (playing at an All-NBA level this season), they get Wall back (he has looked good in practice of late), and from there they re-sign Bertans, count on growth from rookie Rui Hachimura, and put together a roster of role players who can win games in the East."
Taken from here: https://nba.nbcsports.com/2020/01/25/another-report-wizards-shooting-down-all-trade-talk-around-davis-bertans/

I don't think that implies that they're making a big mid-season trade now. It only says that they're trying to win next year, which presumably means they won't be dealing Bertans or Beal.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#942 » by payitforward » Tue Jan 28, 2020 3:16 pm

Illmatic12 wrote:
payitforward wrote:
Illmatic12 wrote:...I have a hunch who they’re going after but we’ll see.. deadline still a ways away

...You "have a hunch," illmatic! -- Come on, out with it!

Looking around the league, Drummond in Det has been on the market for a while and fits the Bradley Beal timeline (they were in the same draft class i believe). Could see them throwing a couple of their spare parts at the Pistons to buy low on Drummond’s bird rights - he’s already stated he’ll opt out enter FA. My thinking is, it gives FO a chance to re-evaluate the defense with a true center in the paint plus earns them some goodwill with Brad.

They’re in a position to pull this off while still protecting themselves both ways. Ideally things go well and they’re able to re-sign him to an affordable extension. But if not they can seek out a willing S&T partner in July , or just let him walk and use the spare cap room on an FA bigman .. Millsap Favors Ibaka out there to name a few

Dude... Andre Drummond is making $27m this year. & he has a player option for almost $29m for next year.

So much for "an affordable extension."

& who are these "spare parts" exactly?
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#943 » by payitforward » Tue Jan 28, 2020 3:49 pm

1. Mahinmi <> Dieng. That seems unlikely, as I can't see why they would want to take on the extra salary next year.

2. Trading Bryant. That would be foolish, though trading him for Capela would have some appeal. Yet, that would add $8m to payroll next year, constraining other options. & wouldn't make us contenders -- not even in the East.

3. Mcrae to Philly for a pick. The Sixers have both the Hawks & Knicks R2 picks next year. Not to mention their own & also the Mavs R2 pick. Elton Brand is known not to value R2 picks highly. I wouldn't take their lower R2 picks for McRae, but one of the 2 high ones would be a great move for us.

4. IT > Jerian Grant. Do it now!

5. Or, come to think of it, here's something even better... a) trade McRae & IT to the Sixers for one of the high R2 picks & one of their low R2 picks. b) Then sign Grant &, closer to the deadline, trade Grant to the Sixers for the other high R2 pick! :)

Whaddya say?
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#944 » by I_Like_Dirt » Tue Jan 28, 2020 4:57 pm

payitforward wrote:closer to the deadline


The trade deadline is February 6th. How much closer to the deadline do you want to cut it? I'm pretty sure it isn't possible to sign a free agent like that and then turn around and trade them so soon.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#945 » by gambitx777 » Tue Jan 28, 2020 7:07 pm

Makes all the sense in the world honestly . They have a bunch of guys in 1 year deals they can just cut. Or we can cut them. Either was makes sense.
nate33 wrote:I caught the Hollinger/Duncan podcast the other day. They were speculating about potential trades and brought up McRae to Philly for a second round pick and filler. They felt it was a really good idea for Philadelphia to obtain another shot creator/shooter for when Simmons sits. And the nice thing about McRae is that he only costs the vet minimum.


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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#946 » by payitforward » Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:14 pm

I_Like_Dirt wrote:
payitforward wrote:closer to the deadline

The trade deadline is February 6th. How much closer to the deadline do you want to cut it? I'm pretty sure it isn't possible to sign a free agent like that and then turn around and trade them so soon.

Ummm, so... should I stop trying to be funny? Is that it? Should I stop attempting humorous versions of trade ideas I read here? Or... should I use green font?

You are right; it would not actually be possible to turn IT into 4 R2 picks, or whatever it was I was suggesting! :)
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#947 » by gambitx777 » Wed Jan 29, 2020 2:56 am

I happen to think piff is funny !
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#948 » by long suffrin' boulez fan » Wed Jan 29, 2020 3:03 am

gambitx777 wrote:I happen to think piff is funny !


And sexy.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#949 » by gambitx777 » Wed Jan 29, 2020 5:25 am

And so humble !
long suffrin' boulez fan wrote:
gambitx777 wrote:I happen to think piff is funny !


And sexy.


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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#950 » by payitforward » Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:24 pm

gambitx777 wrote:And so humble !
long suffrin' boulez fan wrote:
gambitx777 wrote:I happen to think piff is funny !

And sexy.

Dang... it was going so well there for a minute!
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#951 » by nate33 » Thu Jan 30, 2020 3:16 pm

I posted this on the roster/rotations thread, but I think it belongs here:



PIF has convinced me.

We aren't going to win a championship with a core of Wall, Beal and Bertans taking up 70% of our cap room. It's impossible.

Of those 3 guys, Beal is the only guy who could be a component of a championship at his salary so we don't necessarily need to move him (but we should be open-minded). Wall can't be moved now, but should be moved at the first available opportunity. Bertans should not be resigned to a large contract if the goal is to win a championship. He should be traded at the Deadline for the best picks possible.

The only argument for retaining Bertans is if you accept Wall can't be moved for the next 3 years so the next 3 years are lost years anyhow. Under that premise, one can argue that we may as well be 45-win good instead of 35-win good by signing Bertans to a 3-year deal that expires when Wall is up. That's a viable strategy if you really think that picking in the 14-20 range isn't really worse than picking in the 7-12 range. Better to just squeak into the playoffs and look like a credible organization than it is to tank relentlessly in the hopes of landing a superstar. This is doclinkin's model. Be decent, get better, build a culture, and hopefully you get lucky with a late pick or you finally earn the credibility to attract a true max-caliber free agent.

I'm more in the PIF camp. It's all about "winning" every transaction to increase the asset base of the franchise. An asset is properly defined as a player on a below market contract. And as PIF rightly points out, below market contracts are almost exclusively superstars, or guys on rookie contracts (plus the rare free agent signing made before a player breaks out like a Robert Covington).

Bertans is temporarily a positive asset. He will cease being a positive asset the moment we resign him to a new contract next year. Instead, we should convert him into picks that will remain positive assets for the next 4+ years and have a small percentage chance of remaining positive assets much longer if the drafted player becomes a superstar. We should repeat this strategy relentlessly. Whenever a guy becomes a temporary positive asset, trade him for a more permanent positive asset.

The only issue with that strategy is that there are a limited number of roster spots to develop all the mid and late picks you acquire by trading temporarily-positive vets. So one must always be on the lookout for consolidation trades. If we can trade, say, Bonga and a 2nd for a future 1st, do it.

Likewise, you can trade cap room and TPE's for more positive assets. It's noteworthy that the cap is about to drop due to revenue problems with China. We will be in position to make even more positive trades next year (as teams try to clear cap room for 2021 free agency) if we have luxtax room and trade exceptions available thanks to Bertans not being on the roster at $15M a year.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#952 » by pcbothwel » Thu Jan 30, 2020 6:52 pm

3 Way with Mavs and 76ers:
Wiz
Out: Bertans, IT, McRae
In: Zhaire, GSW 2nd, 10M TPE

Philly
Out: Richardson, Zhaire
In: Bertans, McRae, Brunson

Dallas
Out: Brunson, GSW 2nd, TPE
In: Richardson, IT

Why
Wiz - Cash in on Bertans and McRae by getting 1st pick in second round and buy low prospect in Zhaire. 10M TPE gives us a lot of flexibility over the next 12 months

Philly - Get better fits with Bertans and McRae along with really good prospect Brunson on a cheap contract

Dallas - Get the wing defender and 3rd piece to compete in the west
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#953 » by payitforward » Thu Jan 30, 2020 6:54 pm

nate -- even "if you accept Wall can't be moved for the next 3 years so the next 3 years are lost years," it wouldn't make sense to re-sign Bertans (or any player! I'm not picking on Davis!) unless he is "a positive asset" in your sense of someone making less than his productivity warrants. Would you go out and sign a new FA to the team for more than he's worth? I don't think so.

Better to use your bullets differently in such a stretch of years, I'd say. Acquire draft picks & young players -- guys who have a chance to become positive assets in the sense mentioned above. Doing that makes it possible that you have the trade assets you need to make those "consolidation trades" you mention.

Now... I'm not sure that's the same as "tank relentlessly." In fact, I think it's just another way of achieving the goals you ascribe to doc's model. After all, if you draft well you will "look like a credible organization" (i.e. "be decent, get better, build a culture..." etc.).

A great example of how to run, & how not to run, a franchise is offered by Dallas. Look at their roster, ignoring Porzingis & Doncic for a moment: it's a bunch of high value players on low-price contracts & a couple of guys who were plus value FA signings (Delon Wright in particular). A series of outstanding moves to acquire those guys.

Now turn to Porzingis -- here we see the classic fail: an attempt to sign a "star" (& "potential" superstar). He's been just awful, as he was his first 3 years.

OTOH, turn to Doncic -- a great example of managing the draft to an optimum result. You don't always trade down -- sometimes you trade up!

I think that if Dallas had had an average NBA Center instead of Porzingis so far this year, they might be leading the West. For sure only the Lakers would conceivably be ahead of them.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#954 » by nate33 » Thu Jan 30, 2020 7:12 pm

payitforward wrote:nate -- even "if you accept Wall can't be moved for the next 3 years so the next 3 years are lost years," it wouldn't make sense to re-sign Bertans (or any player! I'm not picking on Davis!) unless he is "a positive asset" in your sense of someone making less than his productivity warrants. Would you go out and sign a new FA to the team for more than he's worth? I don't think so.

Obviously, you don't keep Bertans at any cost. If Atlanta comes along and offers him $20M a year, you let him go because at that salary, he is a substantially negative value and no wise team intentionally takes on negative value contracts (except those in their championship window).

My point is that, if we assume that Bertans is available at a market-value cost (say, $13M or so), the Doclinkin Plan would be to keep him because it makes us better in the short term; and short-term and intermediate-term success is important if we are to build a reputation as a premier basketball team. The argument is, it's better to have Bertans, win 6 extra games a year over the next 3 years and reap the PR (and cash receipts) benefits, than it is to have the #22ish pick we are likely to obtain in a Bertans trade.

I disagree with the argument, but I understand it.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#955 » by payitforward » Thu Jan 30, 2020 7:22 pm

pcbothwel wrote:3 Way with Mavs and 76ers:
Wiz
Out: Bertans, IT, McRae
In: Zhaire, GSW 2nd, 10M TPE

Philly
Out: Richardson, Zhaire
In: Bertans, McRae, Brunson

Dallas
Out: Brunson, GSW 2nd, TPE
In: Richardson, IT

Why
Wiz - Cash in on Bertans and McRae by getting 1st pick in second round and buy low prospect in Zhaire. 10M TPE gives us a lot of flexibility over the next 12 months

Philly - Get better fits with Bertans and McRae along with really good prospect Brunson on a cheap contract

Dallas - Get the wing defender and 3rd piece to compete in the west

Well done!!! This is brilliant! But... I do you think Richardson brings Dallas enough to make it worth them letting both Brunson & a #31 pick?

Would Philly do this if they didn't receive Brunson, I wonder? Have to assume they've soured on Smith entirely. Perhaps they'd think Bertans/McRae increases their firepower this year while moving Richardson helps big time w/ their cap/tax problems next year.

Or... is there any possibility Dallas would like to have Bertans? If so, we could make it Wiz trade Bertans, IT, & McRae for Brunson, GSW 2nd, TPE. They then waive IT.

That takes us down to 13 guys, so we'd have to sign at least one player. Or IT can be left out of the deal.

Or IT can be a name & no more. They waive him, we re-sign him (i.e. if there's some season-long guarantee we've given his agent).

Even is that case, we'd likely sign a player -- convert Mathews most likely.

Big question is whether Dallas would covet Davis Bertans. Anyone think so?
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#956 » by payitforward » Thu Jan 30, 2020 7:28 pm

nate33 wrote:
payitforward wrote:nate -- even "if you accept Wall can't be moved for the next 3 years so the next 3 years are lost years," it wouldn't make sense to re-sign Bertans (or any player! I'm not picking on Davis!) unless he is "a positive asset" in your sense of someone making less than his productivity warrants. Would you go out and sign a new FA to the team for more than he's worth? I don't think so.

Obviously, you don't keep Bertans at any cost. If Atlanta comes along and offers him $20M a year, you let him go because at that salary, he is a substantially negative value and no wise team intentionally takes on negative value contracts (except those in their championship window).

My point is that, if we assume that Bertans is available at a market-value cost (say, $13M or so), the Doclinkin Plan would be to keep him because it makes us better in the short term; and short-term and intermediate-term success is important if we are to build a reputation as a premier basketball team. The argument is, it's better to have Bertans, win 6 extra games a year over the next 3 years and reap the PR (and cash receipts) benefits, than it is to have the #22ish pick we are likely to obtain in a Bertans trade.

I disagree with the argument, but I understand it.

Yes, there's an argument for it. & Bertans also seems to be a good guy in other ways too. Culture-building. But... I don't think Davis is going to win us 6 extra games a year. Obviously, it depends on who plays the minutes if he's gone.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#957 » by wall_glizzy » Thu Jan 30, 2020 7:40 pm

payitforward wrote:I think that if Dallas had had an average NBA Center instead of Porzingis so far this year, they might be leading the West. For sure only the Lakers would conceivably be ahead of them.


Their winning percentage is about the same with or without Porzingis, who plays power forward.

~61% (22-14) in 36 games with, facing twenty teams with a losing record and sixteen above .500
~63% (7-4) in 11 games without, facing seven teams with a losing record and four above .500

Dwight Powell, who I quite like, is/was the starting center, and I believe Kleber (also a plus player, imo) would usually relieve Porzingis (and play a fair share of minutes at the 5 as well - Porzingis has played ~500 minutes alongside Powell and ~350 alongside Kleber).
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#958 » by pcbothwel » Thu Jan 30, 2020 7:48 pm

payitforward wrote:
pcbothwel wrote:3 Way with Mavs and 76ers:
Wiz
Out: Bertans, IT, McRae
In: Zhaire, GSW 2nd, 10M TPE

Philly
Out: Richardson, Zhaire
In: Bertans, McRae, Brunson

Dallas
Out: Brunson, GSW 2nd, TPE
In: Richardson, IT

Why
Wiz - Cash in on Bertans and McRae by getting 1st pick in second round and buy low prospect in Zhaire. 10M TPE gives us a lot of flexibility over the next 12 months

Philly - Get better fits with Bertans and McRae along with really good prospect Brunson on a cheap contract

Dallas - Get the wing defender and 3rd piece to compete in the west

Well done!!! This is brilliant! But... I do you think Richardson brings Dallas enough to make it worth them letting both Brunson & a #31 pick?

Would Philly do this if they didn't receive Brunson, I wonder? Have to assume they've soured on Smith entirely. Perhaps they'd think Bertans/McRae increases their firepower this year while moving Richardson helps big time w/ their cap/tax problems next year.

Or... is there any possibility Dallas would like to have Bertans? If so, we could make it Wiz trade Bertans, IT, & McRae for Brunson, GSW 2nd, TPE. They then waive IT.

That takes us down to 13 guys, so we'd have to sign at least one player. Or IT can be left out of the deal.

Or IT can be a name & no more. They waive him, we re-sign him (i.e. if there's some season-long guarantee we've given his agent).

Even is that case, we'd likely sign a player -- convert Mathews most likely.

Big question is whether Dallas would covet Davis Bertans. Anyone think so?


Thanks
The mags fans on the trade board liked it. So I assume it could work

I add IT because I want the largest TPE possible. It would enable us the add two 10M players this summer with the MLE.

I’m cool with just Dallas too, but wouldn’t Bertans be a bit redundant with Porzingis and specifically Kleber?
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#959 » by Silvie Lysandra » Thu Jan 30, 2020 8:07 pm

nate33 wrote:The only argument for retaining Bertans is if you accept Wall can't be moved for the next 3 years so the next 3 years are lost years anyhow. Under that premise, one can argue that we may as well be 45-win good instead of 35-win good by signing Bertans to a 3-year deal that expires when Wall is up. That's a viable strategy if you really think that picking in the 14-20 range isn't really worse than picking in the 7-12 range. Better to just squeak into the playoffs and look like a credible organization than it is to tank relentlessly in the hopes of landing a superstar. This is doclinkin's model. Be decent, get better, build a culture, and hopefully you get lucky with a late pick or you finally earn the credibility to attract a true max-caliber free agent.
.


I definitely understand the idea of just doing The Process for the rest of Wall's deal, though if we did that, we should have already traded Beal, or at least be trying to trade him. I've defended that model, but I don't think it fits our current team.

The core problem with this is that while the culture stuff is really really hard to quantify, it exists. And a significant effect of it is that it makes your assets stronger, both objectively (positive team atmosphere, better training and development, opportunities for playoff basketball, veteran influence) and subjectively (young players tend to look like better assets when they're part of a winning team, or at least a team that isn't bad, which means when the time comes to consolidate, or trade for that disgruntled superstar, it gives you an edge in making that trade). Also it gives you leverage when it comes time to resign that star, even if you do land them in the draft (which is why Beal signed a medium term extension with a bad team despite really really really wanting to win)

And while 14-20 is kind of worse than the 7-12 range, even PIF himself has argued *repeatedly* that it's not significantly worse, which is why we argue about Clarke vs Hachimura every week (not so much because Rui Hachimura can't or won't be good or even great, but because the draft is a crapshoot especially past top 3, and you want more lottery tickets). And of course, you never know when Giannis or whoever (or possibly Ujiri) might fall in love with DC. And tanking has been drastically nerfed as a strategy. The worst record is equivalent to the 4th worst record, and the 7th worst record has only half as much of a chance to land the #1 pick as the worst record. And the 1st pick might not even be a Kevin Durant or a LeBron James! They might be an Anthony Bennett, or a Markelle Fultz, or even just a John Wall (i.e 2nd or 3rd best player on a contender).

Ultimately, trying to win every single transaction in terms of value sounds great, but "value" can be very fluid, winning more games in the short-term can have long-term value in itself (as long as you don't mortgage the future entirely), and just because it's hard to measure, doesn't mean it's not real.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII 

Post#960 » by payitforward » Thu Jan 30, 2020 8:14 pm

pcbothwel wrote:
payitforward wrote:
pcbothwel wrote:3 Way with Mavs and 76ers:
Wiz
Out: Bertans, IT, McRae
In: Zhaire, GSW 2nd, 10M TPE

Philly
Out: Richardson, Zhaire
In: Bertans, McRae, Brunson

Dallas
Out: Brunson, GSW 2nd, TPE
In: Richardson, IT

Why
Wiz - Cash in on Bertans and McRae by getting 1st pick in second round and buy low prospect in Zhaire. 10M TPE gives us a lot of flexibility over the next 12 months

Philly - Get better fits with Bertans and McRae along with really good prospect Brunson on a cheap contract

Dallas - Get the wing defender and 3rd piece to compete in the west

Well done!!! This is brilliant! But... I do you think Richardson brings Dallas enough to make it worth them letting both Brunson & a #31 pick?

Would Philly do this if they didn't receive Brunson, I wonder? Have to assume they've soured on Smith entirely. Perhaps they'd think Bertans/McRae increases their firepower this year while moving Richardson helps big time w/ their cap/tax problems next year.

Or... is there any possibility Dallas would like to have Bertans? If so, we could make it Wiz trade Bertans, IT, & McRae for Brunson, GSW 2nd, TPE. They then waive IT.

That takes us down to 13 guys, so we'd have to sign at least one player. Or IT can be left out of the deal.

Or IT can be a name & no more. They waive him, we re-sign him (i.e. if there's some season-long guarantee we've given his agent).

Even is that case, we'd likely sign a player -- convert Mathews most likely.

Big question is whether Dallas would covet Davis Bertans. Anyone think so?

Thanks
The mavs fans on the trade board liked it. So I assume it could work

I add IT because I want the largest TPE possible. It would enable us the add two 10M players this summer with the MLE.

I’m cool with just Dallas too, but wouldn’t Bertans be a bit redundant with Porzingis and specifically Kleber?

With Kleber, yes. But... I wouldn't mention this to them! Ssssh....

As to Porzingis, he's a mess. His 34.1% 3-point rate translates to 51.2% EFG on those shots. An average NBA big posts a 53.6% efg.
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