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2020 Draft

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Frichuela
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#1281 » by Frichuela » Mon Sep 14, 2020 6:46 pm

Shoe wrote:Two interesting things from the Ringers new mock draft

1. According to execs Patrick Williams has top 10 hype and Jalen Smith is lottery projection

2.
manager Tommy Sheppard told me he sees an opportunity to “swing for the fences, take a wild card, buy a lottery ticket, if you will.”


And 3)...the Wiz land Big O at #9! A man can dream...
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#1282 » by Ruzious » Mon Sep 14, 2020 6:59 pm

Frichuela wrote:
Ruzious wrote:
Frichuela wrote:
or better yet... would the Nets be willing to trade Jarrett Allen, #19 and Temple for Bryant and #9? :roll:


Remember, Allen is an RFA after next season, so we'd either lose him or have to pay him quite a bit to stay. I think we could get him cheaper than that trade. Btw, Temple's 34. I wouldn't trade for him, but I'd love to have him as an assistant coach after he retires.


The idea here would be to ideally extend Allen before he hits RFA for a bit of a discount, say $60 mn/4 years. If we do that the Wiz will be expending an extra $6-7mn given that Bryant is costing $8-9mn/year.

Temple has 1 year left with a TO. The idea is to have him around to help in the wing for 1 year and as a experienced voice in the locker room.

I don't strongly disagree - and it's not a bad move, though it's not what I'd do. That may not seem like much for Allen, but with the caps likely going down, it ain't chump change for a traditional type center like Allen. And our guards aren't kids anymore - Wall, Beal, Ish, even Napier are seasoned vets who don't need a babysitter in the locker room. And the young guys Tommy's been targeting are boy scout types, for the most part. I'd rather fill the back end of the roster with younger players and have people like GT as coaches to teach them.
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#1283 » by payitforward » Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:39 pm

Frichuela wrote:...Worst scenario the Cavs select Big O at #5. Would they want #9, Troy B (or Isaac Bonga) and our #37 pick for #5? ...would we be willing to part with these assets?
I would have zero interest in a trade on those terms. I like Okongwu a lot, but that level of confidence in him...? No.

Assuming one would get Haliburton @ #9 & Tillman at #37, we would be giving Troy Brown (or Isaac Bonga), Tyrese Haliburton & Xavier Tillman for Onyeka Okongwu.

Frichuela wrote:...or is it better to select Vassell or Okoro at #9 and look for a big in FA (Noel?).

Far better. Or to trade down & pick up Jalen Smith & another pick -- plus Tillman (one hopes) @#37.

Frichuela wrote:
Frichuela wrote:or better yet... would the Nets be willing to trade Jarrett Allen, #19 and Temple for Bryant and #9? :roll:

I like Thomas Bryant a lot, but you gotta give to get, so sure! &... even better better yet, trade that #19 to Boston for their #s 26 & 30. Pick up Desmond Bane, Tyler Bey, & Tillman (@#37).

But, really, why fool around? Why not go for better than best? After the above, buy the #34 & #49 from Elton Brand & pick Vernon Carey & Malachi Flynn.

Ok... I need to look back at the above to remember what I just did.... Oh yeah, I turned the #9 pick, Thomas Bryant, & a couple of million bucks into...

Jarrett Allen
Desmond Bane
Tyler Bey
Xavier Tillman
Vernon Carey
Malachi Flynn
& Garrett Temple

Jarrett Allen is our starting Center.
Vernon Carey replaces Thomas Bryant & backs up Allen.
Desmond Bane comes off the bench to back up Beal at the 2.
Tyler Bey is our jack-of-all-trades disrupter who plays 20 minutes/night as a 2-3.
Xavier Tillman comes off the bench for 20 games, then takes over as our starting 4.
Malachi Flynn comes off the bench as our point-guard-in-waiting, which allows us to trade Ish at the deadline.
Garrett Temple gets spot minutes. After the season, our new head coach (whoever he is) hires him as an Assistant.

3 years later, we contend for the NBA title, & journalists hunt nationwide for the old fart on a discussion Board who put this all together.

Finding him (me) he is awarded the newly-created Nobel Prize in know-it-all-itude.
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#1284 » by payitforward » Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:09 pm

Shoe wrote:Two interesting things from the Ringers new mock draft

1. According to execs Patrick Williams has top 10 hype and Jalen Smith is lottery projection

2. ...Tommy Sheppard ...sees an opportunity to “swing for the fences, take a wild card, buy a lottery ticket, if you will.”


https://www.theringer.com/nba/2020/9/14/21435542/nba-mock-draft -- we get Okongwu

From an article https://www.theringer.com/nba/2020/7/7/21316348/washington-wizards-bradley-beal-john-wall on Beal & Wall --

Sheppard said the Wizards have 17 players on their draft board that he’d be happy to take with their first-round pick (note: he said this when we didn't know what pick we had of the top 15 -- must be a shorter list by now!)... Sheppard likes this draft class, which might lack top-end stars but has plenty of high-end role players. “This draft is looked at by several people as being weaker than recent years. We see it as a great opportunity. This might give us an opportunity to swing for the fences, take a wild card, buy a lottery ticket, if you will,” Sheppard said. “We are probably more focused on bigs, but if there’s someone there we like and he’s got the same position as somebody else that we have, we’re going to take them.”

Despite the final clause, maybe this means that even if Okongwu is gone we will be looking past Vassell or Haliburton?
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#1285 » by nate33 » Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:12 pm

payitforward wrote:
Shoe wrote:Two interesting things from the Ringers new mock draft

1. According to execs Patrick Williams has top 10 hype and Jalen Smith is lottery projection

2. ...Tommy Sheppard ...sees an opportunity to “swing for the fences, take a wild card, buy a lottery ticket, if you will.”


https://www.theringer.com/nba/2020/9/14/21435542/nba-mock-draft -- we get Okongwu

From an article https://www.theringer.com/nba/2020/7/7/21316348/washington-wizards-bradley-beal-john-wall on Beal & Wall --

Sheppard said the Wizards have 17 players on their draft board that he’d be happy to take with their first-round pick (note: he said this when we didn't know what pick we had of the top 15 -- must be a shorter list by now!)... Sheppard likes this draft class, which might lack top-end stars but has plenty of high-end role players. “This draft is looked at by several people as being weaker than recent years. We see it as a great opportunity. This might give us an opportunity to swing for the fences, take a wild card, buy a lottery ticket, if you will,” Sheppard said. “We are probably more focused on bigs, but if there’s someone there we like and he’s got the same position as somebody else that we have, we’re going to take them.”

Despite the final clause, maybe this means that even if Okongwu is gone we will be looking past Vassell or Haliburton?

If Chicago drafts Wiseman, I'd definitely give them a phone call about Wendell Carter.
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#1286 » by Frichuela » Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:18 pm

Despite the final clause, maybe this means that even if Okongwu is gone we will be looking past Vassell or Haliburton?[/quote]
If Chicago drafts Wiseman, I'd definitely give them a phone call about Wendell Carter.[/quote]

This! 100% agreed. Carter would be a fantastic addition!
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#1287 » by Ruzious » Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:29 pm

So far, the Carter/Markkanen combo's been a big disappointment, imo, but they're both young and both have had injury problems. Still, they didn't show any improvement over last season.
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#1288 » by Frichuela » Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:38 pm

Ruzious wrote:So far, the Carter/Markkanen combo's been a big disappointment, imo, but they're both young and both have had injury problems. Still, they didn't show any improvement over last season.


Agreed but IMHO Carter has been much less of a disappointment and more the result of injuries and the Bull's "horror house" of mismanagement. Stephen Noh at the Athletic sang his praises as a high IQ defender in an article earlier this season:

https://theathletic.com/1447006/2019/12/11/wendell-carter-jr-has-proven-to-be-a-solid-pick-but-can-the-bulls-make-him-great/
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#1289 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:39 pm

Shoe wrote:Two interesting things from the Ringers new mock draft

1. According to execs Patrick Williams has top 10 hype and Jalen Smith is lottery projection

2.
manager Tommy Sheppard told me he sees an opportunity to “swing for the fences, take a wild card, buy a lottery ticket, if you will.”


Jalen Smith is a better selection than Devin Vassell.

I’m amazed by the groupthink and just waiting for the I told y’all so.
2020 Wizards SHOULD Draft:

(Unless they move up in the top to draft Wiseman/Okongwu)

JALEN SMITH and either Xavier Tillman, Paul Reed, Udoka Azubuike, or TYLER BEY (if they get lucky and he slips in the draft).
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#1290 » by payitforward » Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:32 pm

Frichuela wrote:
nate33 wrote:If Chicago drafts Wiseman, I'd definitely give them a phone call about Wendell Carter.

This! 100% agreed. Carter would be a fantastic addition!

I haven't paid much attention to Carter, but looking at his numbers he seems bad enough at most things that even with his excellent rebounding numbers he doesn't seem to amount to much.

What am I missing?
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#1291 » by nate33 » Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:46 pm

payitforward wrote:
Frichuela wrote:
nate33 wrote:If Chicago drafts Wiseman, I'd definitely give them a phone call about Wendell Carter.

This! 100% agreed. Carter would be a fantastic addition!

I haven't paid much attention to Carter, but looking at his numbers he seems bad enough at most things that even with his excellent rebounding numbers he doesn't seem to amount to much.

What am I missing?

He is showing promise at being a good defensive anchor. Chicago's opponent ORtg is 107.7 with Wendell on the floor. It is 111.6 with him off.

I'm not saying he's the next Rudy Gobert or anything. But he looks like he "gets it" defensively. If he can be had for a reasonable price, I'd consider it.
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#1292 » by payitforward » Tue Sep 15, 2020 2:21 am

Ah... ok -- thanks!
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#1293 » by pcbothwel » Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:27 pm

nate33 wrote:
payitforward wrote:
Frichuela wrote:This! 100% agreed. Carter would be a fantastic addition!

I haven't paid much attention to Carter, but looking at his numbers he seems bad enough at most things that even with his excellent rebounding numbers he doesn't seem to amount to much.

What am I missing?

He is showing promise at being a good defensive anchor. Chicago's opponent ORtg is 107.7 with Wendell on the floor. It is 111.6 with him off.

I'm not saying he's the next Rudy Gobert or anything. But he looks like he "gets it" defensively. If he can be had for a reasonable price, I'd consider it.


I have to agree with PIF on this one. I love the Horford upside, but Im not paying the premium of his draft pick 2 years ago. So with 9 off the board and Brown/Rui better prospects (And Rui a terrible fit with Markannen), whats the asset?

Id be open to something around Ish & 9 for Carter and a 2021/2022 1st... but overall, just seems like poor trade partners and the Bulls could do better.
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#1294 » by payitforward » Tue Sep 15, 2020 1:09 pm

pcbothwel wrote:
nate33 wrote:
payitforward wrote:I haven't paid much attention to Carter, but looking at his numbers he seems bad enough at most things that even with his excellent rebounding numbers he doesn't seem to amount to much.

What am I missing?

He is showing promise at being a good defensive anchor. Chicago's opponent ORtg is 107.7 with Wendell on the floor. It is 111.6 with him off.

I'm not saying he's the next Rudy Gobert or anything. But he looks like he "gets it" defensively. If he can be had for a reasonable price, I'd consider it.


I have to agree with PIF on this one. I love the Horford upside, but Im not paying the premium of his draft pick 2 years ago. So with 9 off the board and Brown/Rui better prospects (And Rui a terrible fit with Markannen), whats the asset?

Id be open to something around Ish & 9 for Carter and a 2021/2022 1st... but overall, just seems like poor trade partners and the Bulls could do better.

I'm not sure what I said that you can be agreeing with! -- But, hey, thanks anyway.

Not to speak for nate, but he suggested that he'd call Chicago about Carter if they picked Wiseman & would be interested in him if the price were reasonable. I don't think he meant anything like giving the #9 for him!

I wouldn't give that even w/ the return of a #1 pick 2 years from now. Maybe if it was the Bulls' unprotected 2021 pick. Yet... even that I'm not sure.
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#1295 » by Ruzious » Tue Sep 15, 2020 1:59 pm

payitforward wrote:
pcbothwel wrote:
nate33 wrote:He is showing promise at being a good defensive anchor. Chicago's opponent ORtg is 107.7 with Wendell on the floor. It is 111.6 with him off.

I'm not saying he's the next Rudy Gobert or anything. But he looks like he "gets it" defensively. If he can be had for a reasonable price, I'd consider it.


I have to agree with PIF on this one. I love the Horford upside, but Im not paying the premium of his draft pick 2 years ago. So with 9 off the board and Brown/Rui better prospects (And Rui a terrible fit with Markannen), whats the asset?

Id be open to something around Ish & 9 for Carter and a 2021/2022 1st... but overall, just seems like poor trade partners and the Bulls could do better.

I'm not sure what I said that you can be agreeing with! -- But, hey, thanks anyway.

Not to speak for nate, but he suggested that he'd call Chicago about Carter if they picked Wiseman & would be interested in him if the price were reasonable. I don't think he meant anything like giving the #9 for him!

I wouldn't give that even w/ the return of a #1 pick 2 years from now. Maybe if it was the Bulls' unprotected 2021 pick. Yet... even that I'm not sure.

Chicago's 20/21 pick could be valuable if it's completely unprotected - as they seem to be a poorly run organization. (How can that be with both Otto Porter and Satoransky?) Carter's a good (not great) talent, but he and Bagley from that Duke team were both overrated - as has been the case with a lot of Duke bigs since Elton Brand.
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#1296 » by payitforward » Tue Sep 15, 2020 2:22 pm

In Carter's favor is that he improved his 2d year. His individual scoring productiveness per 40 minutes (points plus offensive boards minus shot attempts minus .4 of FTAs minus turnovers*) equal +4.7. An average big is at @3.25 (for comparison: Thomas Bryant = +6.6; Rui = +2.1).

* Note that you can't use this formula to compare across positions (though an average 4 & 5 are pretty close. Wait... checked again -- C= @4.3; PF=2.6 ).
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#1297 » by payitforward » Tue Sep 15, 2020 2:40 pm

Ruzious wrote:
payitforward wrote:
pcbothwel wrote:
I have to agree with PIF on this one. I love the Horford upside, but Im not paying the premium of his draft pick 2 years ago. So with 9 off the board and Brown/Rui better prospects (And Rui a terrible fit with Markannen), whats the asset?

Id be open to something around Ish & 9 for Carter and a 2021/2022 1st... but overall, just seems like poor trade partners and the Bulls could do better.

I'm not sure what I said that you can be agreeing with! -- But, hey, thanks anyway.

Not to speak for nate, but he suggested that he'd call Chicago about Carter if they picked Wiseman & would be interested in him if the price were reasonable. I don't think he meant anything like giving the #9 for him!

I wouldn't give that even w/ the return of a #1 pick 2 years from now. Maybe if it was the Bulls' unprotected 2021 pick. Yet... even that I'm not sure.

Chicago's 20/21 pick could be valuable if it's completely unprotected - as they seem to be a poorly run organization. (How can that be with both Otto Porter and Satoransky?) Carter's a good (not great) talent, but he and Bagley from that Duke team were both overrated - as has been the case with a lot of Duke bigs since Elton Brand.

Yeah, I have to take that back. What if it were their R1 pick this year -- that would make it Ish/9 for Carter/4, which is obviously ridiculous. There's a discount on a future pick, but still....

IOW, they would never go for that trade anyway!
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#1298 » by payitforward » Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:39 pm

payitforward wrote:Sheppard said... “We are probably more focused on bigs..."

Worth looking at this statement, which does seem to make sense. We have control over 11 players (guys under guaranteed contracts plus Bonga & Garrison Mathews -- I'm ignoring Pasecniks for the moment). Only Bryant, Rui & Wagner are bigs, & Wagner doesn't look good.

Unless Wiseman falls through the floor, the only big being projected at 9 or earlier in this draft is Onweka Okungwu. Great if we get him. What if we don't?

The next 3 bigs in pretty much all mocks so far are (in no particular order): Precious Achiuwa, Jalen Smith & Alexei Pokusevski. Given our all-in attitude about Rui, I'm thinking there's no chance we want Achiuwa.

So... might we take either Smith or Poku at #9? Possibly. Yet, it seems very likely, almost 100%, that at least one of those guys will still be on the board at #14. Both might very well be there.

This makes a trade with Boston extremely attractive. Moreover, I have no doubt whatever that Boston will move at least 1 of its 3 R1 picks, as they did last year. Hence, it seems likely they'd do a 2-for-1 with us to move up to #9 -- unless they are targeting someone whom they feel absolutely certain will be on the board at #14 (in which case, look for them to trade #s26 & 30 for a pick in the mid-low-teens or some more complicated deal).

In other words, a trade down is starting to seem like a real possibility rather than my annual dream-that-can't-come-true.

If we got 14 & 26 for 9, I'd be thrilled. But, I'd also take 14 & 30 (ssssh, don't tell Danny!). If it meant that we wound up with Jalen Smith, Tyler Bey & Xavier Tillman... that would be a great draft.

Promote Mathews, & sign Nathan Knight & one of Payton Pritchard, Skylar Mays, Nate Hinton, Tre Jones or Cassius Winston as 2-ways, & we've taken some more steps towards rebuilding this team as a good one.
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#1299 » by Ruzious » Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:04 pm

No Sam Merrill or Tres Tinkle? Ok, I guess we don't need to take a t... no I'm too classy to go there.

And trade Wagner for a future 2nd rounder please.
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#1300 » by doclinkin » Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:16 pm

payitforward wrote:
payitforward wrote:Sheppard said... “We are probably more focused on bigs..."

Worth looking at this statement, which does seem to make sense. We have control over 11 players (guys under guaranteed contracts plus Bonga & Garrison Mathews -- I'm ignoring Pasecniks for the moment). Only Bryant, Rui & Wagner are bigs, & Wagner doesn't look good.

Unless Wiseman falls through the floor, the only big being projected at 9 or earlier in this draft is Onweka Okungwu. Great if we get him. What if we don't?

The next 3 bigs in pretty much all mocks so far are (in no particular order): Precious Achiuwa, Jalen Smith & Alexei Pokusevski. Given our all-in attitude about Rui, I'm thinking there's no chance we want Achiuwa.

...

If we got 14 & 26 for 9, I'd be thrilled. But, I'd also take 14 & 30 (ssssh, don't tell Danny!). If it meant that we wound up with Jalen Smith, Tyler Bey & Xavier Tillman... that would be a great draft.


I'd like that draft well enough. Still I get the feeling we are more likely to try to trade up to get Okongwu than to trade down this year.

That said, I wouldn't rule out the selection of Achiuwa. Sheppard talks a lot so if you listen long enough he has said he is interested in everything --and he is an enthusiastic guy so he probably is-- but he has said there are high energy Bigs (plural) who can help out in the draft. Achiuwa qualifies. He may be 6'9" but he is solid and chiseled with the frame to build more strength. He has the length to defend 4 & 5. With Rui's face-up game being his go-to skill set, I think the team envisions him as a 3/4 who can be used to body up and defend some of the supersized 'small' forwards in the game.

If so, Precious would add roster flexibility in that he can sub in next to Rui/Bryant/Bertans, shoring up the weaknesses of each on the defensive end. He rebounds, blocks shots, moves well laterally to stay with guards, has both active hands and feet on defense, makes our size a positive mismatch. His offense is limited, and his FT shooting is subpar, so he's not my favorite prospect in the draft, but as a raw athlete he is in the top of the class. And he does have a ready role waiting for him on this team. I'd understand if Tommy took him.

But as I said, I think it doesn't come to that. If Halliburton is available in our spot, I bet GSW would like to trade their #2 overall to land a player who absolutely fits their style, and see if they could pick up additional assets. I think Tommy in his enthusiasm and 'that's my guy' attitude, is dialed in on Okongwu and will try to get a deal done to jump up.

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