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2020 Draft

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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#1481 » by dckingsfan » Sat Oct 10, 2020 6:56 pm

AdonalFoyle4Prez wrote:Hey guys, hope all is well. Wondering if you guys would consider the following:

2020 #2 + Marquese Chriss + Paschall for 2020 #9 + Troy Brown Jr. + Thomas Bryant?

Consensus of the board is we are trying to move down as well.
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#1482 » by AdonalFoyle4Prez » Sat Oct 10, 2020 7:02 pm

dckingsfan wrote:
AdonalFoyle4Prez wrote:Hey guys, hope all is well. Wondering if you guys would consider the following:

2020 #2 + Marquese Chriss + Paschall for 2020 #9 + Troy Brown Jr. + Thomas Bryant?

Consensus of the board is we are trying to move down as well.


Who are you guys trying to land?
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#1483 » by Frichuela » Sat Oct 10, 2020 7:24 pm

AdonalFoyle4Prez wrote:Hey guys, hope all is well. Wondering if you guys would consider the following:

2020 #2 + Marquese Chriss + Paschall for 2020 #9 + Troy Brown Jr. + Thomas Bryant?


Don’t you guys have a desire to become more athletic and bigger? Not sure how this trade would achieve that...
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#1484 » by nate33 » Sat Oct 10, 2020 8:05 pm

AdonalFoyle4Prez wrote:Hey guys, hope all is well. Wondering if you guys would consider the following:

2020 #2 + Marquese Chriss + Paschall for 2020 #9 + Troy Brown Jr. + Thomas Bryant?

No thanks. It's a huge step down from Bryant to Chris. And I like the future of 21-year-old Brown Jr. over Paschall, who is almost 3 years older.

That's two big downgrades in exchange for just a modest rise in the draft - a draft with very little differentiation between #1 and #10.
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#1485 » by payitforward » Sat Oct 10, 2020 8:25 pm

Agree with nate et. al. -- this trade doesn't offer us anything we could conceivably want other than a higher pick; I don't think we even want that higher pick this year, however.
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#1486 » by doclinkin » Sat Oct 10, 2020 8:57 pm

AdonalFoyle4Prez wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:
AdonalFoyle4Prez wrote:Hey guys, hope all is well. Wondering if you guys would consider the following:

2020 #2 + Marquese Chriss + Paschall for 2020 #9 + Troy Brown Jr. + Thomas Bryant?

Consensus of the board is we are trying to move down as well.


Who are you guys trying to land?



Curious about the same question for you. I'd pick up the phone on this offer and see what else can be done, picks or different personnel. This team is high on both the TBJrs, they are developing well, so you likely wouldn't get both. Brown more likely than Bryant I think. But the front office is interested in putting together a contender on the hurry-up for a Beal/Wall backcourt. Okongwu is a target and a good fit (and to me on talent alone Wiseman is tantalizing, depending on intangibles and background interviews) trading up is probably the way to get that done. The front office definitely doesn't leave this message on 'read', talk more. How about we get your Minnesota 2nd round pick next year?

Who are you targeting at #9?
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#1487 » by Dat2U » Sat Oct 10, 2020 9:25 pm

nate33 wrote:
AdonalFoyle4Prez wrote:Hey guys, hope all is well. Wondering if you guys would consider the following:

2020 #2 + Marquese Chriss + Paschall for 2020 #9 + Troy Brown Jr. + Thomas Bryant?

No thanks. It's a huge step down from Bryant to Chris. And I like the future of 21-year-old Brown Jr. over Paschall, who is almost 3 years older.

That's two big downgrades in exchange for just a modest rise in the draft - a draft with very little differentiation between #1 and #10.


I'd make this trade for LaMelo on the board at #2 and don't look back.

I probably wouldn't make the trade for any other prospect.
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#1488 » by queridiculo » Sat Oct 10, 2020 9:32 pm

All I want for Christmas is Okongwu in a Wizards jersey.
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#1489 » by Dat2U » Sat Oct 10, 2020 9:41 pm

queridiculo wrote:All I want for Christmas is Okongwu in a Wizards jersey.


Better shot of seeing Wiseman fall than Okongwu. Based on Bam's postseason, Onyeka probably goes top 5.

Color me intrigued by the defensive potential of Achiuwa. He fits the modern game defensively. Can challenge shots and the rim and switch onto guards and hold his own. Where Onyeka has the advantage is offensive skill and maturity.
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#1490 » by doclinkin » Sun Oct 11, 2020 2:09 am

Dat2U wrote:
queridiculo wrote:All I want for Christmas is Okongwu in a Wizards jersey.


Better shot of seeing Wiseman fall than Okongwu. Based on Bam's postseason, Onyeka probably goes top 5.

Color me intrigued by the defensive potential of Achiuwa. He fits the modern game defensively. Can challenge shots and the rim and switch onto guards and hold his own. Where Onyeka has the advantage is offensive skill and maturity.


And youth: he's 19 to Precious' 21. The earlier a player gets it, the higher their top end seems to be. Okongwu growing up playing with the Ball brothers gave him exposure to world class talent, and an early taste for winning. He had an expectation that this is what you do. This leads to that maturity you mention in his game. he was a highschool freshman whose job was to anchor the defense for superstar Lonzo and the crew. He knew his role early, and committed to defense while in high school. Other players can be the star, his job was to do the hard work, and keep them winning.

All of which goes into the calculations when I say I'm okay with trading up for Okongwu. He's got useful skills already and also untapped upside. If Bam were in this draft in the top 5, wouldn't he be worth a top 5 pick? If you could trade a player and a pick from this team and pick up Bam, would you do it?

With the shifting metagame, that player is no longer going to be overlooked for a while. People are going to be looking for the Next skilled big. As you suggest with Achiuwa. Who I have talked up on these pages, I just think Okongwu is further along in his development, while also being younger. That hints to me of big things in the future for the 'Wu.
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#1491 » by payitforward » Sun Oct 11, 2020 2:37 pm

doclinkin wrote:
Dat2U wrote:
queridiculo wrote:All I want for Christmas is Okongwu in a Wizards jersey.

Better shot of seeing Wiseman fall than Okongwu. Based on Bam's postseason, Onyeka probably goes top 5. ...

...which goes into the calculations when I say I'm okay with trading up for Okongwu....

The arguments for Okongwu -- i.e. trading up for him -- are pretty convincing.

Assuming he isn't going to go first in the draft, then trading w/ GS would be the most obvious thing to do -- given that everyone seems to think that they are looking to trade out of the #2 spot. The problem is that the higher the spot, the more you have to give for it.

So, what's a possible trade with GS?
(Edit: given the proposed trade higher up on this page isn't close to equal)

I find it almost impossible to imagine Okongwu getting past Cleveland at #5, don't you? Guards out of the last 2 drafts. Thompson just expired. Love is old. Drummond isn't a sure thing to be a Cav in '21. Only way I can see him falling below #5 is if Wiseman falls, & Cleveland picks him.

So, what's a possible trade with Cleveland?

doclinkin wrote:... If Bam were in this draft in the top 5, wouldn't he be worth a top 5 pick? If you could trade a player and a pick from this team and pick up Bam, would you do it? ...

Are you suggesting that you'd give as much to get to pick Okongwu as you'd give for Bam?
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#1492 » by payitforward » Sun Oct 11, 2020 2:55 pm

Back to this:
AdonalFoyle4Prez wrote:...2020 #2 + Marquese Chriss + Paschall for 2020 #9 + Troy Brown Jr. + Thomas Bryant?

That's not going to work, obviously. So, what might work?

For starters, Paschall is of no interest at all. Take him & one of our 2 players out of the deal, & what' left is:

2020 #2 + Marquese Chriss for 2020 #9 + Thomas Bryant
or
2020 #2 + Marquese Chriss for 2020 #9 + Troy Brown Jr.

Would we do either of those deals? If so, which one? If not, why not? & what's an alternative?
Remember -- if you don't like the post above: blame Doc not me.
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#1493 » by Frichuela » Sun Oct 11, 2020 3:12 pm

payitforward wrote:Back to this:
AdonalFoyle4Prez wrote:...2020 #2 + Marquese Chriss + Paschall for 2020 #9 + Troy Brown Jr. + Thomas Bryant?

That's not going to work, obviously. So, what might work?

For starters, Paschall is of no interest at all. Take him & one of our 2 players out of the deal, & what' left is:

2020 #2 + Marquese Chriss for 2020 #9 + Thomas Bryant
or
2020 #2 + Marquese Chriss for 2020 #9 + Troy Brown Jr.

Would we do either of those deals? If so, which one? If not, why not? & what's an alternative?


I would do the Thomas Bryant deal...

Question is would Tommy pick Okongwu at #2 and pass on Wiseman?
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#1494 » by DCZards » Sun Oct 11, 2020 3:34 pm

Frichuela wrote:
payitforward wrote:Back to this:
AdonalFoyle4Prez wrote:...2020 #2 + Marquese Chriss + Paschall for 2020 #9 + Troy Brown Jr. + Thomas Bryant?

That's not going to work, obviously. So, what might work?

For starters, Paschall is of no interest at all. Take him & one of our 2 players out of the deal, & what' left is:

2020 #2 + Marquese Chriss for 2020 #9 + Thomas Bryant
or
2020 #2 + Marquese Chriss for 2020 #9 + Troy Brown Jr.

Would we do either of those deals? If so, which one? If not, why not? & what's an alternative?


I would do the Thomas Bryant deal...

Question is would Tommy pick Okongwu at #2 and pass on Wiseman?


It would be hard to pass on Wiseman. Kid has all-world talent IF he has the desire to be great.
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#1495 » by payitforward » Sun Oct 11, 2020 3:44 pm

Dat2U wrote:Color me intrigued by the defensive potential of Achiuwa. He fits the modern game defensively. Can challenge shots and the rim and switch onto guards and hold his own.

Good points. But, we would expect to be able to get him further down in R1 than #9. &, since we would NOT be "all in" on Achiuwa (because that is always a mistake) but instead would have him on a tier with a few other guys, we'd be looking for a trade down.

Who'd be on that tier w/ Precious? Nesmith? Vassell? Pokusevski? Saddiq Bey? Jalen Smith?

Suppose we traded with the Kings -- they got our #9, & we got their #12, 43 & 52.

Now, let's suppose that Precious was gone when our #12 turn came. So, we take Jalen Smith instead. Then, at 43, let's suppose that Vernon Carey, Jr. is on the board, & we take him. At that #52 pick, let's say we choose Nate Hinton.

Is there any solid reason to think that Precious Achiuwa will be more valuable than all three of Jalen Smith, Vernon Carey, Jr. & Nate Hinton?

Actually, let me put that slightly differently:

is there any solid reason, right now, to think that Precious Achiuwa will be a better NBA player than Jalen Smith?

The answer to that question is, "No."

edit: but wait... perhaps Precious Achiuwa will still be on the board when we pick! In fact, just judging from a variety of mocks (not to say that means anything special), you'd probably expect to see him available at the #12 pick.

So, maybe we like him better than Nesmith, Vassell, Poku, Bey or Smith (not to say that there's any special reason, right now, to rate him higher than those guys) -- well, then, let's definitely take him. & still get Carey & Hinton.
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#1496 » by payitforward » Sun Oct 11, 2020 4:02 pm

DCZards wrote:
Frichuela wrote:
payitforward wrote:Back to this:

That's not going to work, obviously. So, what might work?

For starters, Paschall is of no interest at all. Take him & one of our 2 players out of the deal, & what' left is:

2020 #2 + Marquese Chriss for 2020 #9 + Thomas Bryant
or
2020 #2 + Marquese Chriss for 2020 #9 + Troy Brown Jr.

Would we do either of those deals? If so, which one? If not, why not? & what's an alternative?

I would do the Thomas Bryant deal...

Question is would Tommy pick Okongwu at #2 and pass on Wiseman?

It would be hard to pass on Wiseman. Kid has all-world talent IF he has the desire to be great.

Agreed.

But, since we are really discussing Okongwu -- what is the trade with Cleveland that would work (& which we'd only execute, obviously, "if our guy is there")?
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#1497 » by Ruzious » Sun Oct 11, 2020 4:22 pm

Dat2U wrote:
queridiculo wrote:All I want for Christmas is Okongwu in a Wizards jersey.


Better shot of seeing Wiseman fall than Okongwu. Based on Bam's postseason, Onyeka probably goes top 5.

Color me intrigued by the defensive potential of Achiuwa. He fits the modern game defensively. Can challenge shots and the rim and switch onto guards and hold his own. Where Onyeka has the advantage is offensive skill and maturity.

I see it differently. Okongwu's not a carbon copy of Bam any more than Wiseman is of Anthony Davis, and Davis is obviously better than Bam. I'd be surprised if Okongwu goes before Wiseman. Also disagree on Ball, but I might've mentioned that a time or 5.
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#1498 » by nate33 » Sun Oct 11, 2020 6:42 pm

payitforward wrote:
doclinkin wrote:
Dat2U wrote:Better shot of seeing Wiseman fall than Okongwu. Based on Bam's postseason, Onyeka probably goes top 5. ...

...which goes into the calculations when I say I'm okay with trading up for Okongwu....

The arguments for Okongwu -- i.e. trading up for him -- are pretty convincing.

Assuming he isn't going to go first in the draft, then trading w/ GS would be the most obvious thing to do -- given that everyone seems to think that they are looking to trade out of the #2 spot. The problem is that the higher the spot, the more you have to give for it.

So, what's a possible trade with GS?
(Edit: given the proposed trade higher up on this page isn't close to equal)

I find it almost impossible to imagine Okongwu getting past Cleveland at #5, don't you? Guards out of the last 2 drafts. Thompson just expired. Love is old. Drummond isn't a sure thing to be a Cav in '21. Only way I can see him falling below #5 is if Wiseman falls, & Cleveland picks him.

So, what's a possible trade with Cleveland?

doclinkin wrote:... If Bam were in this draft in the top 5, wouldn't he be worth a top 5 pick? If you could trade a player and a pick from this team and pick up Bam, would you do it? ...

Are you suggesting that you'd give as much to get to pick Okongwu as you'd give for Bam?

I definitely think it's possible he gets past Cleveland. They have a kajillion dollars already devoted to the center position, they don't want another one. They are in dire need of defensive wings.

But you make a good point that if Cleveland doesn't really want him, rather than picking someone else, they'd be inclined to at least shop around for a trade down.

I'd offer our #9 and #37 to more up to #5. Or maybe offer a top 4 protected future pick swap. I wouldn't give up a future 1st though.
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#1499 » by payitforward » Sun Oct 11, 2020 7:57 pm

nate -- you're right that they have a lot of $$ in the Center position compared to other positions, but look at their overall payroll & personnel now & going forward. http://www.basketballinsiders.com/cleveland-cavaliers-team-salary/

Even this year, with Drummond (presumably) picking up his $29m option, they have only 2 Centers. & a modest payroll overall. After this year, they are in great shape. Yes, there's 1 bad contract (Love), but a) he is literally the only Center on their roster & b) most of their team is very young backcourt players, & c) all 8 of those other guys together (if they pick up all options) are guaranteed a total of $42m.

In other words, tho it's indisputable that Love's contract is a bad one, it doesn't hurt them. Moreover, their rebuild so far has netted them no Centers whatever & only 1 young big of any kind -- Dean Wade, undrafted, played 71 minutes.

Looks to me like Okongwu, if available, would be their #1 choice. What am I missing?

edit -- I agree that I wouldn't give up a future R1 pick in a trade to move up 4 spots. OTOH, I don't think just the #37 would make the deal work.

In fact, I'm not sure I see a deal that would work for both teams -- which is why I asked what anyone else could come up with. I'd have no trouble throwing in Wagner along w/ that #37 (but, I'd be in the market to buy 2 R2 picks in that case). Not sure they'd be interested in Moe, however.
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#1500 » by Ruzious » Sun Oct 11, 2020 8:15 pm

payitforward wrote:nate -- you're right that they have a lot of $$ in the Center position compared to other positions, but look at their overall payroll & personnel now & going forward. http://www.basketballinsiders.com/cleveland-cavaliers-team-salary/

Even this year, with Drummond (presumably) picking up his $29m option, they have only 2 Centers. & a modest payroll overall. After this year, they are in great shape. Yes, there's 1 bad contract (Love), but a) he is literally the only Center on their roster & b) most of their team is very young backcourt players, & c) all 8 of those other guys together (if they pick up all options) are guaranteed a total of $42m.

In other words, tho it's indisputable that Love's contract is a bad one, it doesn't hurt them. Moreover, their rebuild so far has netted them no Centers whatever & only 1 young big of any kind -- Dean Wade, undrafted, played 71 minutes.

Looks to me like Okongwu, if available, would be their #1 choice. What am I missing?

edit -- I agree that I wouldn't give up a future R1 pick in a trade to move up 4 spots. OTOH, I don't think just the #37 would make the deal work.

In fact, I'm not sure I see a deal that would work for both teams -- which is why I asked what anyone else could come up with. I'd have no trouble throwing in Wagner along w/ that #37 (but, I'd be in the market to buy 2 R2 picks in that case). Not sure they'd be interested in Moe, however.

Cleveland also has Nance - who's more of a center than Love is.

I have Cleveland picking Avdija. They've basically got no wings - not even Buffalo wings or hot wings.
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