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2020 Draft

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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#1581 » by Ruzious » Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:04 pm

DCZards wrote:
Ruzious wrote:GM's who pick someone at 9 that would be available at 15 - without trading down - are stupid or lazy - no matter how good that player turns out to be.

Btw, why do you think Precious chose to go to the same school as Wiseman - knowing Wiseman would likely start at center?

Are you suggesting that a GM who drafted Kawhi Leonard ahead of Vesley, Fredette and Biyombo in the 2011 draft or one that drafted Giannis ahead of Vesley, Trey Burke and Shabbazz Muhammad in the 2013 draft would now be looked upon as “stupid and lazy” for "reaching" and taking Leonard and Giannis over players mocked ahead of them?

I really don’t get this thinking that treats mock drafts like some sort of Holy Grail and that you're making some sort of colossal mistake if you go against conventional wisdom and draft a player at 8 or 9 who is "projected" to go in the 12-14 range.

No. You might want to read what I said.
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#1582 » by doclinkin » Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:31 pm

Dat2U wrote:I get why WizarD loves Precious. He's clearly the best athlete in that 6-9 and above tier. He moves laterally like a wing. His motor is top notch. He also does think of himself as more than just an energy guy and probably views himself as a 3/4. I know he's been working on his shooting since the season ended. Despite the rawness to his game, I believe he has a low ceiling due to his work ethic, motor, defense & rebounding toolkit. Taking him at 9 in this draft isn't a complete reach.

He's in my top 5 I'd be considering at 9.



High floor, but otherwise I agree.
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#1583 » by WizarDynasty » Thu Oct 22, 2020 3:16 am

payitforward wrote:
WizarDynasty wrote:The wizards have a winning card this year, you don't gamble and risk losing it all because you thought you could read the other GM's mind. ...

Respect, WD -- but...

Precious Achiuwa is a risk. Every player is. Look back over those 19 years of drafts, & tell me you weren't wrong about... anyone? There's no success without risk. All of life is a risk.

Going "all in" on a single player -- any player -- is a mistake in every draft: name me one draft where there weren't at least 3 better players than the #9 guy, all of whom were taken at least 5 picks later than him. Sometimes 20 or 30 picks later.

Plus, we are a 24-40 team. We need more than one guy out of this draft -- & this draft is deep enough that there'll be a very good player available at #37. So, who's that going to be, man? Who should it be?

Look this draft is no different that any others. There are always guys hyped up the true scouts so that the player that they want falls to them. Usually the crappy teams are crappy because they can't identify true talent and is self fulfilling prophecy. The GM's are underqualified and all they are interested in doing to saving their jobs which makes sense. They present to their owners what popular opinion is for who to draft so that they keep job security if that player fails. Almost none of these GM's, or final decision makers are hall of fame players who played in the NBA so they have no idea what the true psychology is of a hall of fame player.
Since most of the owners were never true basketball players, they don't even know how to hire qualified GM's to scout. that's why there is risk in the draft.
But Leonsis, is a different breed, we kept Beal and Wall. Leonsis wants to win, look at the capitals! He knows the formula.
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#1584 » by WizarDynasty » Thu Oct 22, 2020 3:38 am

"
In fact, there's no way a GM can say "I'll pick the 9th best guy at #9." All he can say is, for example, "I've got 4 guys on the same tier." Then, if he gets to #9, & they are all still there, & the guy with the #12 pick proposes to swap picks & throw in, say, the #32 pick, he'd be a fool not to make the trade. For reasons that I hope are obvious.

[/quote]

The nba draft is not designed to build your team, like the nfl draft is. It is designed to reward the best talent evaluators. Fortunately the Wizards have WD in their corner. Just think, out of all 64 players that will be drafted. Only 12 or 13 will be in the league in 10 years. 3 or 4 of the top 12 players will turn out to be bust and we can all go back and look at their scouting tapes and see all the signs. It was right in front of your face but you did have the skills to see it.
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#1585 » by nate33 » Thu Oct 22, 2020 2:16 pm

nate33 wrote:After a cursory evaluation, I'm not particularly enamored with Achiuwa. He is a total zero on offense, with an anemic .531 TS% and hitting on .599 of his FT's. And he's a terrible passer. It's possible to live with a poor offensive center if he is a monster on defense, but, standing only 6-9, Achiuwa has very little chance to be an elite rim protector in the Gobert, Jarrett Allen, Mitchell Robinson mold. (And at that height, he's not going to be a fearsome roll threat either.) And, although just a freshman, he's already 21 so I don't think he is going to grow anymore.

There have been good defensive centers who aren't 7-foot long-armed freaks, but they're generally extremely stout, strong base guys with high basketball IQ - guys like Draymond Green and Bam Adebayo. Achiuwa, is 20 pounds lighter than Bam when he was drafted (despite being a year older), and he has none of the basketball IQ indicators that Draymond Green had (assist rate, steals rate).

Achiuwa looks more like a shorter Gorgui Dieng to me, only with a lower FT%, giving him less of a chance to develop a serviceable NBA perimeter shot.

This was my first take, mostly just looking at his numbers. But after WizD's enthusiastic evaluation, and Dat2U's cautious optimism, I took another look. This time, I watched some video.

Man! WizD has a point about his athleticism. The guy moves extremely well and he works very hard. He just wants every ball when it comes off the rim. He has great feet to defend in space and explosive leaping ability to protect the rim. He is equally adept at jumping off one foot or two. He is also apparently ambidextrous, finishing with either hand with ease. Look at the full court left-handed pass he makes at 7:42!



He is raw as hell, but he's not a stiff. He shows signs of having handles and shot creation ability, it just might take a few years for it to be useful at the NBA level. The real question is whether or not he can improve his shooting stroke so that he is at least a knock down shooter if he is left wide open. His FT% is a real concern.

Basically, he is a project, but a project with extremely high upside. He might merely be an undersized backup center like a poor man's Montrez Harrell or Gorgui Dieng, but he could also pan out to be as good as a guy like Pascal Siakam or Bam Adebayo if everything breaks right.
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#1586 » by payitforward » Thu Oct 22, 2020 2:21 pm

doclinkin wrote:
Dat2U wrote:I get why WizarD loves Precious. He's clearly the best athlete in that 6-9 and above tier. He moves laterally like a wing. His motor is top notch. He also does think of himself as more than just an energy guy and probably views himself as a 3/4. I know he's been working on his shooting since the season ended. Despite the rawness to his game, I believe he has a low ceiling due to his work ethic, motor, defense & rebounding toolkit. Taking him at 9 in this draft isn't a complete reach.

He's in my top 5 I'd be considering at 9.

High floor, but otherwise I agree.

Yeah, I was wondering which way Dat had mistyped above (I put it in italics). But, I thought it more likely he meant "high ceiling" (i.e. he'd have gotten 1 of the words the way he wanted it!).
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#1587 » by DCZards » Thu Oct 22, 2020 2:48 pm

Below is the link to the latest consensus draft posted by NBA.com. The quote below comes from the opening comments.

I've been saying for the past month that I like this kid Achiuwa a lot and could see the Zards taking him at 9.

Since our last look, eight of the 10 mock drafts were updated, giving us several big changes. Other than the shakeup at No. 1, the prospect seeing the biggest rise has been Precious Achiuwa. The Memphis big man jumps this week and now appears in the lottery in six of the 10 mock drafts. He shows up twice to the Wizards at No. 9 and twice to the Spurs at No. 11. The energetic big is a versatile defender who will likely develop into a pick-and-roll threat who can finish around the rim.

https://www.nba.com/article/2020/08/20/2020-consensus-mock-draft?cid=EMA_NBA_daily
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#1588 » by queridiculo » Thu Oct 22, 2020 2:51 pm

nate33 wrote:
He is raw as hell, but he's not a stiff. He shows signs of having handles and shot creation ability, it just might take a few years for it to be useful at the NBA level. The real question is whether or not he can improve his shooting stroke so that he is at least a knock down shooter if he is left wide open. His FT% is a real concern.

Basically, he is a project, but a project with extremely high upside. He might merely be an undersized backup center like a poor man's Montrez Harrell or Gorgui Dieng, but he could also pan out to be as good as a guy like Pascal Siakam or Bam Adebayo if everything breaks right.


Yeah, he definitely looks like a guy that has the potential to be devastating face up player, and I could really see him shine in transition on the next level.

What impresses me the most is his anticipation on the boards, and his tremendous footwork on the defensive end.

Plays on his toes, slides really well, and has great change of direction.
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#1589 » by payitforward » Thu Oct 22, 2020 2:52 pm

WizarDynasty wrote:
payitforward wrote:
WizarDynasty wrote:The wizards have a winning card this year, you don't gamble and risk losing it all because you thought you could read the other GM's mind. ...

Respect, WD -- but...

Precious Achiuwa is a risk. Every player is. Look back over those 19 years of drafts, & tell me you weren't wrong about... anyone? There's no success without risk. All of life is a risk.

Going "all in" on a single player -- any player -- is a mistake in every draft: name me one draft where there weren't at least 3 better players than the #9 guy, all of whom were taken at least 5 picks later than him. Sometimes 20 or 30 picks later.

Plus, we are a 24-40 team. We need more than one guy out of this draft -- & this draft is deep enough that there'll be a very good player available at #37. So, who's that going to be, man? Who should it be?

Look this draft is no different that any others. There are always guys hyped up the true scouts so that the player that they want falls to them. Usually the crappy teams are crappy because they can't identify true talent and is self fulfilling prophecy. The GM's are underqualified and all they are interested in doing to saving their jobs which makes sense. They present to their owners what popular opinion is for who to draft so that they keep job security if that player fails. Almost none of these GM's, or final decision makers are hall of fame players who played in the NBA so they have no idea what the true psychology is of a hall of fame player.
Since most of the owners were never true basketball players, they don't even know how to hire qualified GM's to scout. that's why there is risk in the draft.
But Leonsis, is a different breed, we kept Beal and Wall. Leonsis wants to win, look at the capitals! He knows the formula.

I am *really* enjoying your posts, WD. I hope to hell you stick around. But... it's hard to know where to start with this one, amigo! :)

1. Ex-NBA players don't make better GMs. Period. Do I really have to make the list for you?
2. The idea that scouts hype other guys so that the guy they want falls to them... sure! But, since every single one of them does it, the net effect is zero. Plus, the guys who create mock drafts year after year are also learning from experience -- not to mention that, if you show year after year that you're bad at it, pretty soon you don't get to do it or at least no one pays attention!
3. "Hall of fame players" & their "psychology." This has nothing to do with the draft. Nothing at all. No one knows who's going to be a hof player, & anyway you don't go into the draft with the goal of drafting a hof player.
4. Ted Leonsis...? Ted hasn't done a thing to make anyone think he's special. What's the Wizards record over the last 10 years? He's no different from the rest of them. Someone wins every year. In hockey, in basketball, etc. The Caps one title...? That's nice for fans, but it doesn't mean a thing.
5. No, man, GMs do not present popular opinion to their bosses! The best way to keep your job is to succeed. Duh.

We're a 30-win team. We're also a rebuilding team that has only 2 players from as recently as 2 years ago. Other than Wall & Beal, the average age of our players is 23 -- & that's including Ish Smith! A month from now that average age will go down not up.

Of course, if you are right about Precious Achiuwa, if he turns out to be the best player out of this draft -- or at least better than anyone we could conceivably have picked when our number came up -- i.e. a one-of-a-kind value at #9 -- then you should feel free to crow.

Me, I wanted us to take Kawhi at #6 in 2011. I wanted us to take Butler with our 2d R1 pick. When we didn't, I was hoping he'd still be there when our #34 pick rolled around.

Should I crow? Nah, the 2 other guys I liked were Kenneth Faried & Bismack Biyombo. :)
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#1590 » by WizarDynasty » Thu Oct 22, 2020 3:45 pm

payitforward wrote:
WizarDynasty wrote:
payitforward wrote:Respect, WD -- but...

Precious Achiuwa is a risk. Every player is. Look back over those 19 years of drafts, & tell me you weren't wrong about... anyone? There's no success without risk. All of life is a risk.

Going "all in" on a single player -- any player -- is a mistake in every draft: name me one draft where there weren't at least 3 better players than the #9 guy, all of whom were taken at least 5 picks later than him. Sometimes 20 or 30 picks later.

Plus, we are a 24-40 team. We need more than one guy out of this draft -- & this draft is deep enough that there'll be a very good player available at #37. So, who's that going to be, man? Who should it be?

Look this draft is no different that any others. There are always guys hyped up the true scouts so that the player that they want falls to them. Usually the crappy teams are crappy because they can't identify true talent and is self fulfilling prophecy. The GM's are underqualified and all they are interested in doing to saving their jobs which makes sense. They present to their owners what popular opinion is for who to draft so that they keep job security if that player fails. Almost none of these GM's, or final decision makers are hall of fame players who played in the NBA so they have no idea what the true psychology is of a hall of fame player.
Since most of the owners were never true basketball players, they don't even know how to hire qualified GM's to scout. that's why there is risk in the draft.
But Leonsis, is a different breed, we kept Beal and Wall. Leonsis wants to win, look at the capitals! He knows the formula.

I am *really* enjoying your posts, WD. I hope to hell you stick around. But... it's hard to know where to start with this one, amigo! :)

1. Ex-NBA players don't make better GMs. Period. Do I really have to make the list for you?
2. The idea that scouts hype other guys so that the guy they want falls to them... sure! But, since every single one of them does it, the net effect is zero. Plus, the guys who create mock drafts year after year are also learning from experience -- not to mention that, if you show year after year that you're bad at it, pretty soon you don't get to do it or at least no one pays attention!
3. "Hall of fame players" & their "psychology." This has nothing to do with the draft. Nothing at all. No one knows who's going to be a hof player, & anyway you don't go into the draft with the goal of drafting a hof player.
4. Ted Leonsis...? Ted hasn't done a thing to make anyone think he's special. What's the Wizards record over the last 10 years? He's no different from the rest of them. Someone wins every year. In hockey, in basketball, etc. The Caps one title...? That's nice for fans, but it doesn't mean a thing.
5. No, man, GMs do not present popular opinion to their bosses! The best way to keep your job is to succeed. Duh.

We're a 30-win team. We're also a rebuilding team that has only 2 players from as recently as 2 years ago. Other than Wall & Beal, the average age of our players is 23 -- & that's including Ish Smith! A month from now that average age will go down not up.

Of course, if you are right about Precious Achiuwa, if he turns out to be the best player out of this draft -- or at least better than anyone we could conceivably have picked when our number came up -- i.e. a one-of-a-kind value at #9 -- then you should feel free to crow.

Me, I wanted us to take Kawhi at #6 in 2011. I wanted us to take Butler with our 2d R1 pick. When we didn't, I was hoping he'd still be there when our #34 pick rolled around.

Should I crow? Nah, the 2 other guys I liked were Kenneth Faried & Bismack Biyombo. :)

Beal is going to go down as one of the greatest Washington shooting guards ever, so i believe he has had serious input into team decisions and Beal has pretty high BBIQ.
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#1591 » by doclinkin » Thu Oct 22, 2020 3:52 pm

Larry Bird and Danny Ainge, Joe Dumars, Jerry West. Great GM's, HOF players. It doesn't hurt to have solid insight into player mentality, but it is not a prerequisite.
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#1592 » by nate33 » Thu Oct 22, 2020 4:15 pm

doclinkin wrote:Larry Bird and Danny Ainge, Joe Dumars, Jerry West. Great GM's, HOF players. It doesn't hurt to have solid insight into player mentality, but it is not a prerequisite.

Of course, there's also Isaiah Thomas, Elgin Baylor, Michael Jordan, Wes Unseld, Ernie Grunfeld, Jim Paxson and Kevin McHale.
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#1593 » by WizarDynasty » Thu Oct 22, 2020 4:27 pm

nate33 wrote:
doclinkin wrote:Larry Bird and Danny Ainge, Joe Dumars, Jerry West. Great GM's, HOF players. It doesn't hurt to have solid insight into player mentality, but it is not a prerequisite.

Of course, there's also Isaiah Thomas, Elgin Baylor, Michael Jordan, Wes Unseld, Ernie Grunfeld, Jim Paxson and Kevin McHale.



I should have narrowed my statement to a 2 way hall of fame player divided into tiers. You have 2 way HOF players as guards, and 2 way hall of fame player as forward. If you have both in your organization, you are covered. Isaih would have been great for helping knicks select guards, but knicks needed HOF 2 way forward to cover Isaih Weakness.

Same problem with Wizard's we have Beal in organization to help the organization with selected two way guards but we don't have a two way HOF forward in organization to help with selected s/f and p/f. I wish chris webber or even rasheed wallace still had close ties with the organization. Having Beal and one of those two would be perfect.

But then again, I would trade Beal for Anthony Edwards. and draft picks in a heart beat if opportunity presented itself.
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#1594 » by dckingsfan » Thu Oct 22, 2020 4:56 pm

I think that being a HOF basketball player doesn't mean you will be a HOF GM. If you really wanted to know the ratio - you would need to do a study of HOF bball players to HOF GMs. You would need to do a similar NBA bball players to HOF GMs and non NBA bball players to HOF GMs.

And having a high BBIQ doesn't mean you would have a high GMIQ. I would listen to any player in my organization as they all could give useful input. But I wouldn't let a player steer the ship, my 1/2 cent.
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#1595 » by WizarDynasty » Thu Oct 22, 2020 4:58 pm

dckingsfan wrote:I think that being a HOF basketball player doesn't mean you will be a HOF GM. If you really wanted to know the ratio - you would need to do a study of HOF bball players to HOF GMs. You would need to do a similar NBA bball players to HOF GMs and non NBA bball players to HOF GMs.

And having a high BBIQ doesn't mean you would have a high GMIQ. I would listen to any player in my organization as they all could give useful input. But I wouldn't let a player steer the ship, my 1/2 cent.



I think the keyword that should be emphasized, is two way. Very hard to have both 2 way HOF guard and forward (preferably P/f) in your organization. Point Blank. Those that have both will dominate. there are just so few 2 way HOF players to begin with.
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#1596 » by dckingsfan » Thu Oct 22, 2020 5:01 pm

WizarDynasty wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:I think that being a HOF basketball player doesn't mean you will be a HOF GM. If you really wanted to know the ratio - you would need to do a study of HOF bball players to HOF GMs. You would need to do a similar NBA bball players to HOF GMs and non NBA bball players to HOF GMs.

And having a high BBIQ doesn't mean you would have a high GMIQ. I would listen to any player in my organization as they all could give useful input. But I wouldn't let a player steer the ship, my 1/2 cent.

I think the keyword that should be emphasized, is two way. Very hard to have both 2 way HOF guard and forward (preferably P/f) in your organization. Point Blank. Those that have both will dominate. there are just so few 2 way HOF players to begin with.

That would be another interesting study, what is the makeup of successful front office teams (and the opposite of course). It may be that having both would be true but correlation might not equal causation.
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#1597 » by nate33 » Thu Oct 22, 2020 5:53 pm

dckingsfan wrote:I think that being a HOF basketball player doesn't mean you will be a HOF GM. If you really wanted to know the ratio - you would need to do a study of HOF bball players to HOF GMs. You would need to do a similar NBA bball players to HOF GMs and non NBA bball players to HOF GMs.

And having a high BBIQ doesn't mean you would have a high GMIQ. I would listen to any player in my organization as they all could give useful input. But I wouldn't let a player steer the ship, my 1/2 cent.

The other obvious issue is that you can have an extremely high BBIQ but lack the physical talent and athleticism to be a HOF player. That doesn't mean you can't be a great GM. You shouldn't rule out the greatest basketball minds because they were unfortunate enough to be short, slow or TRex-armed.
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#1598 » by WizarDynasty » Thu Oct 22, 2020 7:25 pm

need our 2 way hof players--guards forwards,
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#1599 » by DCZards » Thu Oct 22, 2020 8:36 pm



A few observations:

-- I like how Achiuwa blocks shots and keeps them in play...even recovering a few of the blocks himself.
-- He seems to have a nice handle in the open court
-- PA's stroke on the 3 ball doesn't look bad at all, which comes as somewhat of a surprise, especially given his poor FT shooting.
-- Precious forces a lot of shots, which is something that's easily fixable.
-- Many of Achiuwa's TOs stem from bad decisions; too many careless, ill-advised passes.
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#1600 » by payitforward » Thu Oct 22, 2020 9:29 pm

WizarDynasty wrote:
payitforward wrote:In fact, there's no way a GM can say "I'll pick the 9th best guy at #9." All he can say is, for example, "I've got 4 guys on the same tier." Then, if he gets to #9, & they are all still there, & the guy with the #12 pick proposes to swap picks & throw in, say, the #32 pick, he'd be a fool not to make the trade. For reasons that I hope are obvious.

The nba draft is not designed to build your team, like the nfl draft is. It is designed to reward the best talent evaluators....

& the reward they get? They build better teams!

WizarDynasty wrote:Fortunately the Wizards have WD in their corner....

Absolutely! Fortunately, they have me too. So far, working together, we have gotten them to a 24-40 record! :)

WizarDynasty wrote:Just think, out of all 64 players that will be drafted. Only 12 or 13 will be in the league in 10 years.

Of course, that's what it means for chance to be a part of everything.

WizarDynasty wrote:3 or 4 of the top 12 players will turn out to be bust and we can all go back and look at their scouting tapes and see all the signs. It was right in front of your face but you did (not) have the skills to see it.

Sometimes it's more than 3 or 4 -- & at the same time, 3 or 4 of the guys who were NOT picked high will turn out to be terrific players. Again... no one knows in advance, & chance plays its part too.
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