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2020 Draft

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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#61 » by Ruzious » Mon Sep 23, 2019 10:09 pm

Jamaaliver wrote:
Ruzious wrote:Edwards should definitely go ahead of Wiseman. Edwards is a pure scorer, a great athlete with strength and length, and... can create for his teammates. That's a rare combo. And he looks taller than his listed height of 6'4.



I wholeheartedly agree. But I get the feeling many Wizards fans are still stuck on their backcourt of Wall and Beal and are looking to build around their current iteration instead of rebuilding for the long haul...


Case in point:

pancakes3 wrote:i'm usually a "draft talent, not need" guy but with so much money tied up in the backcourt, it seems pretty obvious that we have to draft forwards, and if the opportunity presents itself - a rim protector. Not just a tall guy with long arms, but someone who's can be a legitimate deterrent.

I don't know about other posters, but I'm leary of the Wiz picking Wiseman. In today's NBA, I don't think he and Bryant being able to play together effectively. Wiseman might think he's a forward, but he's a center. Someone compared him to Myles Turner, and I think that's a good comp. Wiseman might become an elite rim protector, but at this point he doesn't look he'll be a sturdy interior scorer, and he seems more interested in playing like a forward - which doesn't work if you're 7'1 and not amazingly skilled. If that remains the case, he'll likely be an inefficient scorer for a big in the NBA - like Turner is.
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#62 » by Jamaaliver » Tue Sep 24, 2019 11:46 am

:dontknow:


I know even less about Thomas Bryant than I do about Wiseman.

But I do think it's a mistake to base a top-5 draft decision around any player on the current roster. If you think you can get a future star and franchise player at any position, do it.

Role players like Bryant shouldn't even be a part of the calculus at this point.
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#63 » by payitforward » Tue Sep 24, 2019 6:00 pm

If you think Bryant is a role player, you are very wrong. Based on last season, he is pretty much the best young Center in the game. I wouldn't want Myles Turner in his place, for example. & it's not even close.

All Bryant did last year that was better than Turner was score more points while taking fewer FGAs/FTAs, grab more defensive boards, more offensive boards too, turn the ball over less, foul less, & log more assists. Turner got slightly more steals & blocked more shots.

That's Bryant as (essentially) a rookie, btw - compared to Turner in his 4th year.

Thomas Bryant is a future all star -- just as Rico Hines said.
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#64 » by payitforward » Tue Sep 24, 2019 6:04 pm

In any case, the goal of the draft should never -- absolutely never -- be to fill a particular role or position. It should be to come away with the maximum value. &, since we have only a very partial idea of who will be in the draft next year, how can it make sense to discuss whom we should choose?
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#65 » by Illmatic12 » Tue Sep 24, 2019 6:23 pm

Jamaaliver wrote:
Ruzious wrote:Edwards should definitely go ahead of Wiseman. Edwards is a pure scorer, a great athlete with strength and length, and... can create for his teammates. That's a rare combo. And he looks taller than his listed height of 6'4.



I wholeheartedly agree. But I get the feeling many Wizards fans are still stuck on their backcourt of Wall and Beal and are looking to build around their current iteration instead of rebuilding for the long haul...


Case in point:

pancakes3 wrote:i'm usually a "draft talent, not need" guy but with so much money tied up in the backcourt, it seems pretty obvious that we have to draft forwards, and if the opportunity presents itself - a rim protector. Not just a tall guy with long arms, but someone who's can be a legitimate deterrent.

If Edwards is the BPA on draft day you take him without hesitation. Having Wall/Beal doesn’t change that , there’s nothing wrong with having 3 good guards especially today in a small ball league. Same applies for Cole Anthony.

However depending on where the pick lands I expect Wash will be aggressive on the trade market.
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#66 » by Jamaaliver » Tue Sep 24, 2019 6:50 pm

An excerpt --

NBA mock draft: LaMelo Ball is now a real No. 1 pick contender

Image

It's time to start taking LaMelo Ball seriously -- possible No. 1 pick seriously -- as an NBA draft prospect.

That was the main takeaway from a four-day trip to Tasmania, home of the NBL Blitz, the Australian and New Zealand basketball league's annual preseason tournament.

Ball looked like an NBL MVP candidate. He put up an impressive 19-point, 13-rebound, 7-assist performance against the defending champion Perth Wildcats. Ball showed similar sparks of potential in earlier preseason contests, most notably dropping 21 points on 11 shots against South East Melbourne. He has moved up to No. 3 in the new ESPN mock draft.

The feedback from NBA scouts was nearly unanimous.

"He reminds me of Luka Doncic," another scout said. "Just in terms of his size, his feel and his creativity."

NBA teams also were impressed by the way Ball controlled the game, his improved shot selection and mechanics, and his body language.
ESPN Insider
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#67 » by Ruzious » Tue Sep 24, 2019 7:54 pm

Illmatic12 wrote:
Jamaaliver wrote:
Ruzious wrote:Edwards should definitely go ahead of Wiseman. Edwards is a pure scorer, a great athlete with strength and length, and... can create for his teammates. That's a rare combo. And he looks taller than his listed height of 6'4.



I wholeheartedly agree. But I get the feeling many Wizards fans are still stuck on their backcourt of Wall and Beal and are looking to build around their current iteration instead of rebuilding for the long haul...


Case in point:

pancakes3 wrote:i'm usually a "draft talent, not need" guy but with so much money tied up in the backcourt, it seems pretty obvious that we have to draft forwards, and if the opportunity presents itself - a rim protector. Not just a tall guy with long arms, but someone who's can be a legitimate deterrent.

If Edwards is the BPA on draft day you take him without hesitation. Having Wall/Beal doesn’t change that , there’s nothing wrong with having 3 good guards especially today in a small ball league. Same applies for Cole Anthony.

However depending on where the pick lands I expect Wash will be aggressive on the trade market.

Btw, I think Edwards is going to big/long/strong enough to play the 3. I'm guessing he'll be at least 6'6 220 in the NBA with a 6'10 wingspan.
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#68 » by Ruzious » Tue Sep 24, 2019 7:58 pm

Jamaaliver wrote:An excerpt --

NBA mock draft: LaMelo Ball is now a real No. 1 pick contender

Image

It's time to start taking LaMelo Ball seriously -- possible No. 1 pick seriously -- as an NBA draft prospect.

That was the main takeaway from a four-day trip to Tasmania, home of the NBL Blitz, the Australian and New Zealand basketball league's annual preseason tournament.

Ball looked like an NBL MVP candidate. He put up an impressive 19-point, 13-rebound, 7-assist performance against the defending champion Perth Wildcats. Ball showed similar sparks of potential in earlier preseason contests, most notably dropping 21 points on 11 shots against South East Melbourne. He has moved up to No. 3 in the new ESPN mock draft.

The feedback from NBA scouts was nearly unanimous.

"He reminds me of Luka Doncic," another scout said. "Just in terms of his size, his feel and his creativity."

NBA teams also were impressed by the way Ball controlled the game, his improved shot selection and mechanics, and his body language.
ESPN Insider

He doesn't strike me as athletic or strong enough to guard anyone. And is he going to be able to play off the ball? At this point, I see him as a late lotto type talent.
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#69 » by payitforward » Tue Sep 24, 2019 8:20 pm

Jamaaliver wrote:...If you think you can get a future star and franchise player at any position, do it...

But if you think a team can know/pick a guy who will be "a future star" or a "franchise player," actual history disagrees.

Every once in a while, sure. But that's simply a function of chance. Lets assume that, picking #4 you were reliably able to name the, say, 7 best guys left in the draft. Put the names in a hat & pick one. You'd expect to get the best guy among them 1 time out of 7 -- i.e. once every seven years.

Here are the 10 guys taken #4 from 2008-2017: Russell Westbrook, Tyreke Evans, Wesley Johnson, Tristan Thompson, Dion Waiters, Cody Zeller, Aaron Gordon, Kristaps Porzingis, Dragan Bender, & Josh Jackson.

The best guy went #4 in one year out of ten, Westbrook. In 4 of those years the guys picked #4 have turned out to be more or less total busts -- Johnson, Waiters, Bender, & Jackson.

That leaves 5 other years. In one of them Tyreke Evans, Ricky Rubio & Jonny Flynn went before... Steph Curry.

There's more detail inside the spoiler, but... it's kinda obvious so maybe don't bother?
Spoiler:
In another of them Tristan Thompson, Jonas Valanciunas, Jan Vesely, Bismack Biyombo & Brandon Knight went before Kemba Walker. Not to mention that all those guys, plus Kemba, plus 5 other guys went before Kawhi Leonard. Jimmer Fredette went 6 picks before Kawhi Leonard. Oh, & another 14 guys after Kawhi went before someone thought of picking Jimmy Butler.

How much better is Wes Johnson than Paul George? How about Ekpe Udoh, Greg Monroe & Al-Farouk Aminu -- how much better are they than Paul George? They all went before him. Hey, they all went before Gordon Hayward too! Oh, and is Hayward better than Paul George? Because he went before him.....

Are Dion Waiters & Thomas Robinson better than Damian Lillard? Are Harrison Barnes, Terrance Ross & Austin Rivers better than Draymond Green? Are they better than Khris Middleton? Is Thomas Robinson, picked #5, better than Kyle O'Quinn, picked #49?

I'd say that if you think you "can get a future star and franchise player" -- say, someone like Joe Alexander, or D.J. Augustin, or Jan Vesely, or Brandon Knight, or Terrance Ross, or Fredette, or Jerryd Bayless, or Jordan Hill, Ben McLemore, or Trey Burke, or Dante Exum, or Nik Stauskas, or Thon Maker, or Stanley Johnson, or... ok ok I'll stop :) -- maybe you should lie down until the thought fades?

Of the 70 guys picked from 4-10 over those 10 years, I'd say there were @20 who became good NBA players -- i.e. solid. Not "stars" & not "franchise players." A few of them did, obviously. But, in virtually every year, way better players were taken way later than the the top 10, usually at least 1/2 dozen or more of them -- including in most years at least 1 but sometimes 3 or more better players taken in R2 than most of the lottery.
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#70 » by Jamaaliver » Tue Sep 24, 2019 8:25 pm

payitforward wrote:But if you think a team can know/pick a guy who will be "a future star" or a "franchise player," actual history disagrees.

Every once in a while, sure. But that's simply a function of chance.



It's this line of thinking that led the Hawks to trade away Luka Doncic for multiple draft picks.

Sometimes, you just need to trust in your scouting department.

Spoiler:
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#71 » by Jamaaliver » Tue Sep 24, 2019 8:27 pm

Ruzious wrote:He doesn't strike me as athletic or strong enough to guard anyone. And is he going to be able to play off the ball? At this point, I see him as a late lotto type talent.



I understand the skepticism. Having never watched a full game, I can't really say one way or another what he'll be. But it is interesting that multiple scouts have slowly come aboard.

And you can see the smoothness in his game. Though there are undeniably a ton of kinks to work out.

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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#72 » by Illmatic12 » Tue Sep 24, 2019 8:28 pm

Ruzious wrote:
Illmatic12 wrote:
Jamaaliver wrote:

I wholeheartedly agree. But I get the feeling many Wizards fans are still stuck on their backcourt of Wall and Beal and are looking to build around their current iteration instead of rebuilding for the long haul...


Case in point:


If Edwards is the BPA on draft day you take him without hesitation. Having Wall/Beal doesn’t change that , there’s nothing wrong with having 3 good guards especially today in a small ball league. Same applies for Cole Anthony.

However depending on where the pick lands I expect Wash will be aggressive on the trade market.

Btw, I think Edwards is going to big/long/strong enough to play the 3. I'm guessing he'll be at least 6'6 220 in the NBA with a 6'10 wingspan.

I could see that .. although I need to see more of how he plays defensively this season.
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#73 » by Illmatic12 » Tue Sep 24, 2019 8:57 pm

Jamaaliver wrote:
Ruzious wrote:He doesn't strike me as athletic or strong enough to guard anyone. And is he going to be able to play off the ball? At this point, I see him as a late lotto type talent.



I understand the skepticism. Having never watched a full game, I can't really say one way or another what he'll be. But it is interesting that multiple scouts have slowly come aboard.

And you can see the smoothness in his game. Though there are undeniably a ton of kinks to work out.

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Yeah I’ve been saying for a while he’s a top 5-10 pick easily idk what some people are seeing. I think people just hate Lavar Ball or something .

LaMelo had a rapid growth spurt and is now essentially a 6’7 Trae Young (maybe not quite as polished but he’s in that mold).

And he’s only 18 but has been playing against grown men for some time now, NBA teams are really going to be intrigued by that . Ball could’ve been the big man on a college campus somewhere being coddled like a baby, instead he’s surrounded by grizzled pros which will force him to defer to vets and fit within the team context. Teams wanted to see that maturity from him and he’s answering those questions.

LaMelo’s brother is a pro, he’s already been exposed to that environment and knows what it takes. By the time he enters the league he will be far more prepared than the average prospect


Kinda funny to think about, but LaMelo Ball and Rui Hachimura would bring in a whole lot of marketing opportunities for Ted Leonsis ..
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#74 » by pancakes3 » Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:08 am

sorry guys, but i don't appreciate my quote being used as a "case in point" for blind homerism that can't "get over" our backcourt.

sure, if Edwards is really the next coming of Vince or something, then yeah, draft him and figure out the minutes later but i don't see any evidence where this is a "well then play Michael at Center" situation.

even if Edwards grades out as the consensus #1 overall pick over more positionally needed talents like Wiseman, Ball, Deni Avdija, or Precious Achiuwa, he's still not going to be the Zion of the draft where the talent overrides the need.

like, in last draft, i think Garland is a better prospect than Hunter but I wouldn't expect the Wizards to draft him over Hunter if the 'Zards had the choice at #4.
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#75 » by Ruzious » Wed Sep 25, 2019 12:36 pm

pancakes3 wrote:sorry guys, but i don't appreciate my quote being used as a "case in point" for blind homerism that can't "get over" our backcourt.

sure, if Edwards is really the next coming of Vince or something, then yeah, draft him and figure out the minutes later but i don't see any evidence where this is a "well then play Michael at Center" situation.

even if Edwards grades out as the consensus #1 overall pick over more positionally needed talents like Wiseman, Ball, Deni Avdija, or Precious Achiuwa, he's still not going to be the Zion of the draft where the talent overrides the need.

like, in last draft, i think Garland is a better prospect than Hunter but I wouldn't expect the Wizards to draft him over Hunter if the 'Zards had the choice at #4.

And in this case, I think your point is wrong because Edwards could very well end up as a 3, and Wiseman simply is not a positionally needed player. Bryant is Washington's starting center. He was already good last season, and he's likely going to get nothing but better. If the Wiz think Edwards will be a better player than Ball, Avdija, and Precious (and I think he will be, but let's see how next season unfolds), they should pick Edwards.
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#76 » by Jamaaliver » Wed Sep 25, 2019 1:11 pm

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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#77 » by payitforward » Wed Sep 25, 2019 2:28 pm

Jamaaliver wrote:
payitforward wrote:But if you think a team can know/pick a guy who will be "a future star" or a "franchise player," actual history disagrees.

Every once in a while, sure. But that's simply a function of chance.

It's this line of thinking that led the Hawks to trade away Luka Doncic for multiple draft picks.

Sometimes, you just need to trust in your scouting department.

You always have to trust your scouting department -- & every other tool you have for assessing players.

But, nah, it wasn't my "line of thinking that led the Hawks to trade away Luka Doncic for multiple draft picks." It was the obvious mistake of picking to fill a need. They decided they needed a point guard. I.e. picked by position rather than taking the BPA.

Since they were confident Trae would be there at 5, they made a move to get something extra -- rather than take Trae at #3. That, in itself, wasn't the problem -- would it have been better if they'd taken Trae Young #3?

Btw, I specifically chose picks #4-10 to look at. #s 1-3 are the only pick positions where there is a statistically meaningful correlation between the pick position & how good the player is, making it riskier to trade out of those 3 spots. So, if anything, you are supporting my point!

Not that it always works out that way, however: go take a look at who was picked @#3 in '08 -- right before Russ. While you're there, take a look at #2 as well. You might also take a look at picks #21, #24, #25, #35, & what the heck #46 as well!

:)
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#78 » by Jamaaliver » Wed Sep 25, 2019 2:31 pm

Everything to Know About the 2020 Draft's Potential Top Prospect

Image

Only a select few NBA players who play predominantly at shooting guard possess Edwards' 6'5" size and 225-pound frame. He won't even turn 19 until after the 2020 draft. Explosive athleticism enhances his physical profile a notch further.

But credit gradual skill development for his rise and transformation from attacker and dunker to advanced shot-creator, three-level scorer and capable playmaker. His improved perimeter game has become a clear, notable takeaway that's strengthened his credibility as an elite NBA prospect.

Edwards' power and explosiveness regularly translate to easy baskets in transition. His open-floor ball-handling creates more opportunities at the rim, and he shows good control with both hands while dribbling at full speed. He doesn't need a straight-line path to finish on the break as he's capable of weaving through traffic with violent changes of direction.

Spoiler:
Image



An obvious threat to get downhill, he earns himself high-percentage layup and dunk attempts, usually by bouncing high off two feet, which is his preferred launch method. He can explode upward for a finish above the cylinder before putting a foot in the restricted area, allowing him to beat rim protectors to the spot:

Spoiler:
Image



His progression as a pull-up and step-back shooter has still been the primary way he's elevated his scoring. With a green light and budding confidence in his perimeter game, he can get carried away with low-percentage hero shots. Still more of a shot-maker who tends to lean on deeper dribble jumpers than a pure shooter, Edwards is a long shot to top the 35 percent mark from three as a freshman at Georgia or rookie in the NBA.

Flashes of playmaking have led to some optimism about Edwards' potential as an initiator and combo guard.

Heading into the 2019-20 season, no consensus No. 1 prospect has emerged.

Anthony could end up the safer choice for some, assuming he puts up monstrous numbers running the show for a top-ranked program. Edwards starts at No. 1 with can't-beat positional tools and athleticism, a level of skill that's already high but still rising and enormous room to improve based on his age and fixable weaknesses.
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#79 » by Ruzious » Wed Sep 25, 2019 6:12 pm

Jamaaliver wrote:
Everything to Know About the 2020 Draft's Potential Top Prospect

Image

Only a select few NBA players who play predominantly at shooting guard possess Edwards' 6'5" size and 225-pound frame. He won't even turn 19 until after the 2020 draft. Explosive athleticism enhances his physical profile a notch further.

But credit gradual skill development for his rise and transformation from attacker and dunker to advanced shot-creator, three-level scorer and capable playmaker. His improved perimeter game has become a clear, notable takeaway that's strengthened his credibility as an elite NBA prospect.

Edwards' power and explosiveness regularly translate to easy baskets in transition. His open-floor ball-handling creates more opportunities at the rim, and he shows good control with both hands while dribbling at full speed. He doesn't need a straight-line path to finish on the break as he's capable of weaving through traffic with violent changes of direction.

Spoiler:
Image



An obvious threat to get downhill, he earns himself high-percentage layup and dunk attempts, usually by bouncing high off two feet, which is his preferred launch method. He can explode upward for a finish above the cylinder before putting a foot in the restricted area, allowing him to beat rim protectors to the spot:

Spoiler:
Image



His progression as a pull-up and step-back shooter has still been the primary way he's elevated his scoring. With a green light and budding confidence in his perimeter game, he can get carried away with low-percentage hero shots. Still more of a shot-maker who tends to lean on deeper dribble jumpers than a pure shooter, Edwards is a long shot to top the 35 percent mark from three as a freshman at Georgia or rookie in the NBA.

Flashes of playmaking have led to some optimism about Edwards' potential as an initiator and combo guard.

Heading into the 2019-20 season, no consensus No. 1 prospect has emerged.

Anthony could end up the safer choice for some, assuming he puts up monstrous numbers running the show for a top-ranked program. Edwards starts at No. 1 with can't-beat positional tools and athleticism, a level of skill that's already high but still rising and enormous room to improve based on his age and fixable weaknesses.
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Wow, he's already 225? One thing I couldn't help notice on the videos of him, he looks like he's always focused, and there's no wasted motion - whether he's looking to pass, shoot, or defend. Seems like he's always in attack mode.
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Re: 2020 Draft 

Post#80 » by Jamaaliver » Wed Sep 25, 2019 7:21 pm

Ruzious wrote:Wow, he's already 225? One thing I couldn't help notice on the videos of him, he looks like he's always focused, and there's no wasted motion - whether he's looking to pass, shoot, or defend. Seems like he's always in attack mode.


Yeah, that size and athleticism are really impressive -- especially considering he should be a HS Senior this year. He's a physical beast. I'm really interested in how he develops this year.

(Side NOTE: I wish this was the good old days when guys stayed in college for 2-3 years and added more polish to their games before going pro. He'd do well with some steady high-level coaching for consecutive years.)

Either way, he'll likely be a beast at age 23.

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