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Rui Hachimura

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Re: The Rui Hachimura Thread 

Post#241 » by DCZards » Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:53 pm

80sballboy wrote:Different point of view
Read on Twitter
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This is how the article above concludes:

Six-foot-nine guys who can handle the ball and have 7’2 wingspans and big physical frames and switch everything defensively are a big part of the NBA’s evolution.

With Hachimura, the Wizards may have just evolved.
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Re: The Rui Hachimura Thread 

Post#242 » by Illmatic12 » Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:13 pm

deneem4 wrote:
dangermouse wrote:
TheAlchemist wrote:The problem with Rui is that hes slow. If he had an athletic first step and was bursting with speed he's top 5, perhaps top 3 in this draft.

I dont know if its conditioning or if it's just foot speed. I hope he can get faster and have a more athletic first step.

I can see a lot of Paul pierce in the guy too, if he loses weight and gets faster.

He looks big, but not strong enough to take guys into the post. Slimming down would help him a lot at the 3 spot.


I don't see this at all...

He does seem to have an athletic first step, at least when he is beating other big men with his first step, rip throughs and post moves to get to the basket and create space. In fact, I think that is the best part of his game, very Giannis-esque in that regard.

Its the rest of his game, on both ends of the court, that appears to be in slow motion. He's obviously athletic, so I think this is a BBIQ issue rather than a physical issue. Its quite strange, he is obviously very craft and smart around the basket. He muscles the smaller guys, and beats the bigger guys with his footwork and post moves. Thats why im not worried about his size vs. PFs in this era.

Playing him at the 3 spot would be a mistake. He looks out of place and unsure of what to do when he is on the perimeter being guarded by quicker guys, and his hesitation on shooting outside jumpers, or getting a pass to an open man out of a double team etc, is a little worrying. With confidence these things should improve.

He's a scoring faceup 4 to me.


His floor is a scoring face up something like Kieff
If brooks let him play he can develop into a shot creating play stopping defender..

I think Markieff is his absolute floor . Or his basement lol, he’s probably already better than Morris right now.

Rui is bigger/longer than Keef and doesn’t get blocked at the rim as much, and more importantly he actually runs the floor for easy transition baskets which Keef was too lazy to do. And he has a better first step, he will draw a lot of FTs taking slower bigs off the dribble. His preternatural finishing in the paint reminds me of Jamison , but he’s more physical than Tawn as well.

Maybe I just didn’t pay attention to him that much at Gonzaga, but watching Rui’s highlights I am surprised by how large and strong the kid is. And those giant mitts that catch everything , he doesn’t bobble passes in traffic. I think he was a little too bulky at Gonzaga because they wanted him to play in the low post. A few years earlier he had more of a Giannis type frame. If he can slim down and get back to this kind of mobility.. man oh man

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Re: The Rui Hachimura Thread 

Post#243 » by nate33 » Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:18 pm

DCZards wrote:
80sballboy wrote:Different point of view
Read on Twitter
?s=21


This is how the article above concludes:

Six-foot-nine guys who can handle the ball and have 7’2 wingspans and big physical frames and switch everything defensively are a big part of the NBA’s evolution.

With Hachimura, the Wizards may have just evolved.

That's a real interesting article. And Bryan Oringher has legit credentials - better than many so-called media analysts. Oringher previously worked on the Wizards and Hawks staff in their scouting department.

Oringher analyzed Hachmura, expecting to come to the same general negative conclusion as the consensus. But when he did his review, he came to the exact opposite conclusion. Basically, Oringher thinks Hachimura will be a very good defender and was, in fact, a very good defender at Gonzaga. He executed Gonzaga's scheme as it was supposed to be executed, leading them to a 33-4 record. Oringher apparently thinks Hachimura's defense is actually ahead of his offense.

Oringher also made an interesting point that nearly all advanced metrics on defense are largely worthless unless they are catered to the specific scheme the team is using. He make a long tweet about it here:
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Re: The Rui Hachimura Thread 

Post#244 » by nate33 » Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:21 pm

Here is Oringher's video analysis:

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Re: The Rui Hachimura Thread 

Post#245 » by Ruzious » Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:29 pm

DCZards wrote:
80sballboy wrote:Different point of view
Read on Twitter
?s=21


This is how the article above concludes:

Six-foot-nine guys who can handle the ball and have 7’2 wingspans and big physical frames and switch everything defensively are a big part of the NBA’s evolution.

With Hachimura, the Wizards may have just evolved.

When he drives to the hoop, if you're not looking closely - he looks like a shorter Giannis. But sorry... his game just isn't anything approaching Giannis'. Giannis is so much better at passing, and defensively - people should never... compare the 2. Rui's a full step slower in seeing things and getting to where he needs to be. Also, I don't trust the 7'2 wingspan number, and I doubt his standing reach is close to Giannis'.
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Re: The Rui Hachimura Thread 

Post#246 » by I_Like_Dirt » Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:34 pm

nate33 wrote:Oringher analyzed Hachmura, expecting to come to the same general negative conclusion as the consensus. But when he did his review, he came to the exact opposite conclusion. Basically, Oringher thinks Hachimura will be a very good defender and was, in fact, a very good defender at Gonzaga. He executed Gonzaga's scheme as it was supposed to be executed, leading them to a 33-4 record. Oringher apparently thinks Hachimura's defense is actually ahead of his offense.


I think Hachimura suffered more from the direct comparison to Clarke. Clarke's stats were so off the wall amazing that Hachimura looked pedestrian by comparison. When you look at Hachimura as a standalone prospect, though, he actually looks really good. He averaged 20/7/2 in 30 mpg on 59/42/74 split with a TS% of .639 and a USG% of 28.1 on a team that finished 33-4. Guys who can do that at the age of 20 (turned 21 in February) don't come along very often, regardless of if their defense is good or bad. And for defense, his defense wasn't bad, just not otherworldly amazing. He'll probably never be amazing on defense but he's more than fine and has the size, length and quickness that he isn't going to be exploitable in a decent system. People may have wanted other prospects, and that's totally understandable. Whether they did or didn't, Rui was and still is a fantastic prospect and just because internet mocks had him lower doesn't necessarily mean he was a reach.

I just think lots of onlookers, including online mocks, had a hard time putting Rui above Clarke, and if they were going to put Clarke in the late lottery or just outside of it like they usually did, they'd bump Rui a little lower. To explain dropping him so low, they couldn't point to offense since he was both better and younger than Clarke on offense and instead they fell back to defense which is a lot harder to quantify and therefore a reasonably easy target.
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Re: The Rui Hachimura Thread 

Post#247 » by 80sballboy » Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:55 pm

BTW. I watched most of the Duke game and these are the highlights, not lowlights. They show the missed FT at the end which almost cost them. Went just 5 of 9 from the line and did have two turnovers and some bad shots. They don't show those but also had five assists, so awareness isn't always lacking. He just needs a lot of time. I also don't see Giannis or Kawhi. Maybe a poor man's combination of both.

I think this does a better job explaining his weaknesses, which of course, can be improved.
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Re: The Rui Hachimura Thread 

Post#248 » by payitforward » Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:02 am

I_Like_Dirt wrote:
nate33 wrote:Oringher analyzed Hachmura, expecting to come to the same general negative conclusion as the consensus. But when he did his review, he came to the exact opposite conclusion. Basically, Oringher thinks Hachimura will be a very good defender and was, in fact, a very good defender at Gonzaga. He executed Gonzaga's scheme as it was supposed to be executed, leading them to a 33-4 record. Oringher apparently thinks Hachimura's defense is actually ahead of his offense.

I think Hachimura suffered more from the direct comparison to Clarke. Clarke's stats were so off the wall amazing that Hachimura looked pedestrian by comparison. When you look at Hachimura as a standalone prospect, though, he actually looks really good. He averaged 20/7/2 in 30 mpg on 59/42/74 split with a TS% of .639 and a USG% of 28.1 on a team that finished 33-4. Guys who can do that at the age of 20 (turned 21 in February) don't come along very often, regardless of if their defense is good or bad. And for defense, his defense wasn't bad, just not otherworldly amazing. He'll probably never be amazing on defense but he's more than fine and has the size, length and quickness that he isn't going to be exploitable in a decent system. People may have wanted other prospects, and that's totally understandable. Whether they did or didn't, Rui was and still is a fantastic prospect and just because internet mocks had him lower doesn't necessarily mean he was a reach.

I just think lots of onlookers, including online mocks, had a hard time putting Rui above Clarke, and if they were going to put Clarke in the late lottery or just outside of it like they usually did, they'd bump Rui a little lower. To explain dropping him so low, they couldn't point to offense since he was both better and younger than Clarke on offense and instead they fell back to defense which is a lot harder to quantify and therefore a reasonably easy target.

1. Neither nate, I_Like_Dirt, Zards nor I have any idea how Rui Hachimura will turn out.
2. Oringher has no idea how he'll turn out. The guys at Stepien who rate him much lower than Oringher does, they also have no idea how he will turn out.

No one knows how Rui Hachimura will turn out. What we do know is what he's done so far. & if a positive projection of his future requires us to explain away what he's done so far, that is not a good thing.

No one downgraded Rui because of Brandon Clarke's incredible numbers. These guys do this stuff for a living; they don't fall for obvious traps.

Rui Hachimura was a terrific scorer in college; that's obvious -- he posted over 26 points per 40 minutes at a T% of .639. That's extremely good! Obviously!

But, Dedric Lawson was also quite good -- he posted almost 24 points per 40- minutes at a TS% of .578 -- & he played against much tougher competition (if you believe basketball-reference.com).

The rest of their stats were virtually identical. Except that Dedric Lawson was by far the better rebounder -- by way far.

& Lawson wasn't drafted.

So, if we could stop saying that Rui was the obvious pick -- "a fantastic prospect" -- (especially since very few here thought he would be the pick!) that might be a good thing.
Remember -- if you don't like the post above: blame Doc not me.
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Re: The Rui Hachimura Thread 

Post#249 » by Dat2U » Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:52 am

Rui was coached well offensively and worked really hard on that end. The passing isn't there despite a flash here and there as evidenced by the A/TO ratio. He doesn't zero awareness but he has a ways to go.

I find the Giannis comparison ridiculous. Rui is 3 years older. Giannis was running the PG at 18 overseas. Nothing alike in any way.

The versatility is all in theory. I don't know how you look at him laterally as say he's defending perimeter guys. He got beat every time in that vid and tried to make a late recovery. That generally doesn't work against NBA guys.

Does he have the awareness to defend the C postion? That seems like a reach. Its not addressed in the vid.

Offensively his skillset is very much a old school 4. Its nearly all 18 ft and in. That can be re made but that takes time.
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Re: The Rui Hachimura Thread 

Post#250 » by I_Like_Dirt » Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:57 am

I didn't say he was an obvious pick. There are a few kids I would suggest were fantastic prospects in this draft and Rui was one of them, that's all.

I don't know how you would scout someone without looking at what they've done/can do. If you don't use that, you're being foolish in the extreme. Everyone does that in their analysis so let's not pretend otherwise. The reasons people downgrade him tend to be extremely subjective and intangible so mucb as to be more of a feeling than anything. Rui does well by most statistical and/or measurble means. Dedric Lawson wasn't as efficient offensively and doesn't have any skills quite as elite to push above average on the NBA level to carry him. That said, I like Lawson, too, and think he may yet prove the league wrong, but let's not pretend there weren't reasons Rui was more highly regarded.

I can see this is going to be like last year where extreme cynicism towards the franchise is going to spill over to a kid that doesn't deserve it, though.
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Re: The Rui Hachimura Thread 

Post#251 » by doclinkin » Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:41 am

It is fair to note that his game significantly changed from FIBA to Gonzaga. Mark Few has a number of Bigs in the league. His program trains low post skills. And in limited play time over his career Rui picked up proficient and reliable skills. His footwork and coordination inside the arc are really nice. Before that in FIFA play he showed ball handling and trustworthy face up skills behind the arc. All of that go towards the argument that the kid learns quick and can adapt well to training.

And he added significant muscle and size in a short time to be able to bang. So however he trains his body will show the result. Compare and contrast with Otto who had an advanced game but no matter how hard he worked (Gortat said he was in the weight room all the time) he was never able to gain muscle, and in part I suspect his consistent nagging injuries were a result. Both from over work and from lack of muscle mass when banging inside.

So. A hard worker with good athleticism and coordination, who learns quick, and whose body takes well to training. Seems like the foundation of a good player with a chance to reach the top end of his potential. With good coaching and smart training staff.

I’m curious to see what the end result is here.
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Re: The Rui Hachimura Thread 

Post#252 » by prime1time » Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:45 am

I've known Bryan since elementary school. His credentials are legit but the comparison is a weak one. The only thing comparable between them is the size and their looks. Rui's game is completely predicated on skill. Giannis' game is completely predicated on physical ability.
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Re: The Rui Hachimura Thread 

Post#253 » by prime1time » Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:48 am

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Re: The Rui Hachimura Thread 

Post#254 » by prime1time » Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:49 am

prime1time wrote:
Dat2U wrote:Rui was coached well offensively and worked really hard on that end. The passing isn't there despite a flash here and there as evidenced by the A/TO ratio. He doesn't zero awareness but he has a ways to go.

I find the Giannis comparison ridiculous. Rui is 3 years older. Giannis was running the PG at 18 overseas. Nothing alike in any way.

The versatility is all in theory. I don't know how you look at him laterally as say he's defending perimeter guys. He got beat every time in that vid and tried to make a late recovery. That generally doesn't work against NBA guys.

Does he have the awareness to defend the C postion? That seems like a reach. Its not addressed in the vid.

Offensively his skillset is very much a old school 4. Its nearly all 18 ft and in. That can be re made but that takes time.

You're assuming about his offense. How much of what he showed is what he was instructed by Coach Few to do? Earlier in this thread I posted an article about Rui post practice while Spurs scout was there...

Mark Few blew the final whistle on Gonzaga's basketball practice more than 20 minutes ago, but Rui Hachimura hasn't stopped shooting. Few, Gonzaga's head coach, has moved from the floor to the stands to talk with a scout from the San Antonio Spurs. And Hachimura, who'd been tipped off to the scout's attendance before practice, is giving the pair plenty to discuss.

One minute, he's calling for the ball from well beyond the college three-point line to show how his catch-and-shoot game could extend to NBA range. The next, he's dribble-driving hard into the key only to slam on the brakes, throw himself in reverse and swish a fadeaway jumper. And now he's taking off from damn near the free-throw line and gliding to the rim with such grace that a casual observer could conclude that this dunk is effortless.

We will just have to wait and see what he can do/can't do.
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Re: The Rui Hachimura Thread 

Post#255 » by Illmatic12 » Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:25 am

I_Like_Dirt wrote:I didn't say he was an obvious pick. There are a few kids I would suggest were fantastic prospects in this draft and Rui was one of them, that's all.

I don't know how you would scout someone without looking at what they've done/can do. If you don't use that, you're being foolish in the extreme. Everyone does that in their analysis so let's not pretend otherwise. The reasons people downgrade him tend to be extremely subjective and intangible so mucb as to be more of a feeling than anything. Rui does well by most statistical and/or measurble means. Dedric Lawson wasn't as efficient offensively and doesn't have any skills quite as elite to push above average on the NBA level to carry him. That said, I like Lawson, too, and think he may yet prove the league wrong, but let's not pretend there weren't reasons Rui was more highly regarded.

I can see this is going to be like last year where extreme cynicism towards the franchise is going to spill over to a kid that doesn't deserve it, though.

By February most of these people bashing the Rui pick will switch to bashing Scott Brooks for “holding Rui back/not giving Rui more minutes” .. we’ve seen that cycle play out several times before :lol:


A lot of his defensive flaws are fixable imo, he mostly needs to be drilled on proper footwork and flexibility to widen his defensive stance. From everything I’ve watched its not that he doesn’t possess the athleticism to guard the perimeter , his issue is taking poor angles which can be taught.. he’ll never have elite instincts but can at least be decent on D.

I think Rui’s ultimate NBA upside is as a modern small ball 5 in a closing lineup. Brooks experimented with players like Morris , Portis and Jeff Green at the 5, but Rui actually has the physical tools to hold up there (6’9 230lbs with a 7’2 wingspan, wide body and strong as an ox) so I’m really intrigued to see if they try those looks this season. Switching him onto Cs will simplify his defensive reads, and it’ll allow him to beat opposing bigs up the floor which is one of his main strengths.
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Re: The Rui Hachimura Thread 

Post#256 » by Illmatic12 » Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:42 am

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Re: The Rui Hachimura Thread 

Post#257 » by FAH1223 » Wed Jun 26, 2019 6:15 am

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Re: The Rui Hachimura Thread 

Post#258 » by prime1time » Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:33 am

Illmatic12 wrote:

Well, he's obviously dropped weight it looks like. If I had to guess, he bulked up to play the 4/5 in college and now dropped weight to play the 3/4. This is just one example of why scouting is so superficial. That player on the floor will easily be able to move his feet and slide with guards. Also, look at the low-post post up. When you do that naturally it is so easy to score. Do you know how many points Giannis would average if he could do that? Dude looks like the real deal.
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Re: The Rui Hachimura Thread 

Post#259 » by nate33 » Wed Jun 26, 2019 1:35 pm

I'd really like to know the official measurements on this guy. I'm curious about his vertical leap, standing reach, and hand size. Looking at that video, I'd say the reported 7-2 wingspan is accurate.
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Re: The Rui Hachimura Thread 

Post#260 » by nate33 » Wed Jun 26, 2019 1:39 pm

Dat2U wrote:Offensively his skillset is very much a old school 4. Its nearly all 18 ft and in. That can be re made but that takes time.

Watching the Japan FIBA video, I'm not so sure this is the case. It looks to me that he was placed into an old school low post role at Gonzaga, but he has more perimeter skills. He has a handle. He can crossover inside and out with either hand. He has a eurostep.

It's true that his shooting range doesn't go out to the 3-point line just yet, but these days, every player with a competent midrange shot eventually figures out the 3-ball.

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