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Rui Hachimura

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Re: Rui Hachimura 

Post#361 » by FAH1223 » Mon Jul 29, 2019 2:43 pm

doclinkin wrote:
dangermouse wrote:
Shoe wrote:Image

Spoiler:
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Whoever discovered this is a savant

Rui certainly shows that shooters touch. Usually thats guards with that soft touch.


I also think it may be Rui that’s the savant. I think he does study players and borrow from them skills he has watched them do. I wouldn’t doubt that he’s watched Beal and picked up ideas on how to play the game from him.

One more reason why I do wish we had a defensive badass on the team so he could study their game as well. Players like Scottie Pippen and Klay Thompson I think absorbed greatness by playing next to HOF guys and assuming their character.

Rui has an uncluttered mind right now. Not a lot of AAU ball and playground mix tape clutter. I want him to have good role models while he’s processing and learning so much.


Spurs fans were convinced they would take him if he slipped.

Him in that environment? :o
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Re: Rui Hachimura 

Post#362 » by JWizmentality » Mon Jul 29, 2019 3:10 pm

FAH1223 wrote:
doclinkin wrote:
dangermouse wrote:
Whoever discovered this is a savant

Rui certainly shows that shooters touch. Usually thats guards with that soft touch.


I also think it may be Rui that’s the savant. I think he does study players and borrow from them skills he has watched them do. I wouldn’t doubt that he’s watched Beal and picked up ideas on how to play the game from him.

One more reason why I do wish we had a defensive badass on the team so he could study their game as well. Players like Scottie Pippen and Klay Thompson I think absorbed greatness by playing next to HOF guys and assuming their character.

Rui has an uncluttered mind right now. Not a lot of AAU ball and playground mix tape clutter. I want him to have good role models while he’s processing and learning so much.


Spurs fans were convinced they would take him if he slipped.

Him in that environment? :o


I'm hoping that Shep and crew are laser focused on Rui's development, and surround him with the mentors he needs. In a Spurs environment, no doubt in my mind Rui would be knocking on the allstar door within 2 years. For now, I'm relying on his work ethic to get him where he needs to be rather than what this org does to help. :(

Hope I'm proved wrong.
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Re: Rui Hachimura 

Post#363 » by DCZards » Mon Jul 29, 2019 5:09 pm

JWizmentality wrote:
I'm hoping that Shep and crew are laser focused on Rui's development, and surround him with the mentors he needs. In a Spurs environment, no doubt in my mind Rui would be knocking on the allstar door within 2 years. For now, I'm relying on his work ethic to get him where he needs to be rather than what this org does to help. :(

Hope I'm proved wrong.

Seems to me that Rui and the other youngsters are coming into a new and different Zards organization that has brought in new faces at key positions...and made moves designed to improve the environment for players both on and off the court.
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Re: Rui Hachimura 

Post#364 » by payitforward » Mon Jul 29, 2019 5:16 pm

FAH1223 wrote:Spurs fans were convinced they would take (Rui) if he slipped....

The Spurs first pick was #19 -- if Rui was there, he'd have been a very high value pick!

We took him at #9. Given their interest in Rui, & assuming Spurs fans were right, it sounds like it might have been possible to do the trade I suggested of our #9 for their #s 19, 29 & 49 (works on the Pelton pick-value scale).

With those picks, they took Luka Samanic, Keldon Johnson & Quinndary Weatherspoon. I'd have taken Clarke instead of Samanic.

If the question was, "would you rather have Clarke, Johnson, & Weatherspoon? Or would you rather have Hachimura?" -- what would your answer be?

I know what my answer would be.
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Re: Rui Hachimura 

Post#365 » by JWizmentality » Mon Jul 29, 2019 5:19 pm

DCZards wrote:
JWizmentality wrote:
I'm hoping that Shep and crew are laser focused on Rui's development, and surround him with the mentors he needs. In a Spurs environment, no doubt in my mind Rui would be knocking on the allstar door within 2 years. For now, I'm relying on his work ethic to get him where he needs to be rather than what this org does to help. :(

Hope I'm proved wrong.

Seems to me that Rui and the other youngsters are coming into a new and different Zards organization that has brought in new faces at key positions...and made moves designed to improve the environment for players both on and off the court.


Seems that way. But we've been in this abusive relationship for a long time. :D
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Re: Rui Hachimura 

Post#366 » by FAH1223 » Mon Jul 29, 2019 6:38 pm

payitforward wrote:
FAH1223 wrote:Spurs fans were convinced they would take (Rui) if he slipped....

The Spurs first pick was #19 -- if Rui was there, he'd have been a very high value pick!

We took him at #9. Given their interest in Rui, & assuming Spurs fans were right, it sounds like it might have been possible to do the trade I suggested of our #9 for their #s 19, 29 & 49 (works on the Pelton pick-value scale).

With those picks, they took Luka Samanic, Keldon Johnson & Quinndary Weatherspoon. I'd have taken Clarke instead of Samanic.

If the question was, "would you rather have Clarke, Johnson, & Weatherspoon? Or would you rather have Hachimura?" -- what would your answer be?

I know what my answer would be.


Becky Hammon has called Keldon Johnson the steal of the draft. I'd lean toward Clarke or Samanic, Johnson and Weatherspoon as well. :P
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Re: Rui Hachimura 

Post#367 » by payitforward » Mon Jul 29, 2019 8:36 pm

I'd call Clarke the steal of the draft, but I'd agree that Johnson isn't far behind.

Had we made this trade -- & it is important to remember the obvious fact that we have no idea whether SA would have gone for it! -- we'd have taken some major steps to rebuilding.

At that point, we might have had the confidence to take a flyer on Bol Bol (instead of Schofield). Pick up Robinson, do the LA trade, cut Howard rather than trading him, sign Vonleh, maybe trade for Bertans but maybe not. Sign IT but not Ish. Forget about McRae & Phillip:

PG -- IT, Bonga, Robinson, Wall (injured)
SG -- Beal, Johnson, Weatherspoon
SF -- Brown, Jones
PF -- Clarke, Vonleh, Wagner
C -- Bryant, Bol, Mahinmi

Who knows...?
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Re: Rui Hachimura 

Post#368 » by moistnessfiscal » Fri Aug 9, 2019 5:22 pm

Analytics aren’t favourable to him and is overlooked by the media and hardcore NBA fans, but somehow I’m still very high on him. His 3-year progression and physical outlook is noteworthy, being diligent would be an understatement to his mentality towards basketball, coming from Japan, it means something, being from that culture instills a unique sense of determination and focus that very few players understand. Questions about his shot and basketball instincts are reasonable doubts to the translatability of his game, but his long-term outlook, to me, is much more than a solid role-player.

Ps not a Wizards or Gonzaga fan, also would like note your new front office regime looks promising
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Re: Rui Hachimura 

Post#369 » by Jamaaliver » Fri Aug 9, 2019 6:28 pm

The Athletic had him at #9 on their pre-season Big Board last fall...that's all I got.

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Re: Rui Hachimura 

Post#370 » by Illmatic12 » Fri Aug 9, 2019 7:26 pm

moistnessfiscal wrote:Analytics aren’t favourable to him and is overlooked by the media and hardcore NBA fans, but somehow I’m still very high on him. His 3-year progression and physical outlook is noteworthy, being diligent would be an understatement to his mentality towards basketball, coming from Japan, it means something, being from that culture instills a unique sense of determination and focus that very few players understand. Questions about his shot and basketball instincts are reasonable doubts to the translatability of his game, but his long-term outlook, to me, is much more than a solid role-player.

Ps not a Wizards or Gonzaga fan, also would like note your new front office regime looks promising

The general beat on Hachimura is that a lot of the analytics Twitter “scouts” weren’t high on him and mocked him in the mid/late 1st but many NBA front offices had him ranked highly , in the top 5-10 range. On the SI live draft show it’s confirmed that Charlotte called the Hawks for #8 to take him. There was a lot of gamesmanship on draft day with teams aggressively trying to target Hachimura in the top 10. This from the Athletic:

The Spurs, who picked No. 19, were big Hachimura fans, according to sources, and could have nabbed him or even moved up a few slots to take him if he slid close enough to them. The Hornets were making calls around the league in an effort to move up from No. 13, per sources, and were fancy for Hachimura.

“We tried to trade back until you hear people are trying to trade up to get him ahead of us,” Sheppard said. “There were several teams – cat-and-mouse game. And you have to have the best intel of what’s going on around you. I think there were a couple of teams in hot pursuit but I think when we got the call, we kind of knew what they might be calling about. You say thank you and hang up and we got our guy.”


The Wizards were very careful not to tip their hand pre-draft and let it be know they had interest in Rui. One of the storylines leading up to the draft is that analysts had no read on what the Wizards were going to do at #9, which worked in their favor. They sent out smoke screens that they were going to take Nassir Little, or trade Bradley Beal and move up , and so on to throw teams off the trail.

For example, Leonsis was privy to their hope of drafting Rui Hachimura with the ninth overall pick. Sheppard explained why they wanted Hachimura and what they would do to make sure other teams did not know their plans. The Wizards, for instance, did not host Hachimura for a pre-draft workout in Washington.


There is certain intel that NBA teams have access to that can’t be accounted for just by looking at stats and the way he was utilized at Gonzaga. Tommy Sheppard happens to be close friends with Gonzaga’s coach Mark Few, and Few alerted him to keep an eye on Rui several years ago when Sheppard was VP of Scouting. Since then the Wizards have been tracking Rui closely and have inside information about him that the average draft scout may not know.

Analytics twitter types have been “down” on Rui because they don’t understand his development track. Not only is he a late-comer to basketball (ala Siakam , Embiid etc) he was still learning English at Gonzaga and couldn’t even understand his coaches and teammates early on, thus didn’t fully pick up on the schemes.. which led to those moments of him looking awkward, or going the wrong way on defense and so on.

As Hachimura adjusted to US culture his game on both ends improved rapidly - you can rewatch the full Gonzaga-Duke game on Youtube where Rui was a masterclass on both ends. He’s a very intelligent and a high IQ player, but it will come out more and more now that he’s gained a fairly strong command of English. The Wizards staff has already noted that Rui is quick to pick up on NBA concepts:

Read on Twitter
?s=21

I personally did not know much about Hachimura leading up to the draft and had no idea he was on our radar. But after learning more about his background and the research that went into the pick , I became more encouraged. For him to be this advanced while not even knowing English a few years ago, is incredible in itself. And once I saw him play in SL I became more encouraged , he looks a lot more capable offensively than I anticipated , and his defensive impact was better than advertised. Plus from a physical standpoint this kid is built like a Mack truck , you can see he shouldn’t have many problems adjusting to the physicality of the NBA.

I do believe that he will have to work on his flat 3pt shot and be able to knock that down consistently in order to reach his ceiling at the NBA level. But imo he projects at worst similarly to a player like Harrison Barnes offensively (who turned out to be a solid pick at #9) with the potential to be more versatile defensively - with his size and 7’2 wingspan he showed in SL that he can run some small ball C.
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Re: Rui Hachimura 

Post#371 » by nate33 » Fri Aug 9, 2019 7:34 pm

Great post Illmatic12. I'm going to cross-post it onto the Rui Hachimura thread.
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Re: Rui Hachimura 

Post#372 » by payitforward » Fri Aug 9, 2019 8:17 pm

Stepien didn't even include him in their top 30: https://www.thestepien.com/2019-draft-rankings/

In their composite, he was #42. The highest any of their analysts had him was #29: https://www.thestepien.com/2019-individual-rankings/

Note that Admiral Schofield was #81 in their composite. Highest he was ranked was #55.
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Re: Rui Hachimura 

Post#373 » by Ruzious » Fri Aug 9, 2019 8:27 pm

Fwiw, I remember NBA draft.net had him at 4th, sometimes 6th for a large part of the season. A lot of mocks had him in that range for a long while.
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Re: Rui Hachimura 

Post#374 » by Ruzious » Fri Aug 9, 2019 8:32 pm

payitforward wrote:Stepien didn't even include him in their top 30: https://www.thestepien.com/2019-draft-rankings/

In their composite, he was #42. The highest any of their analysts had him was #29: https://www.thestepien.com/2019-individual-rankings/

Note that Admiral Schofield was #81 in their composite. Highest he was ranked was #55.

They changed their mocks quite a bit. Most of the season, they insisted Morant wasn't worthy of a top 10 pick. They had some very enlightened articles, but sometimes they said stupid things in efforts to get attention.

But hey, we all do that sometimes. Nah, that'd be stupid. Weeeeeeee!!! See.
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Re: Rui Hachimura 

Post#375 » by payitforward » Fri Aug 9, 2019 8:42 pm

It's a great post, yes. Good work, illmatic!

One problem. At the heart of this post is the following statement: "There is certain intel that NBA teams have access to that can’t be accounted for just by looking at stats and the way (a player) was utilized."

Clearly, this is meant as an indication that stats-based analysts can't be expected to get it right in re: how good guys are & where they should go in the draft in the way NBA FOs can -- & clearly, mere guys on e.g. an online Bulletin Board couldn't be expected to be nearly as effective.

Right? Ok, here are 2 lists of names:

1. Jahlil Okafor, Emmanuel Mudiay, Stanley Johnson, Frank Kaminsky, Kelly Oubre, Trey Lyles, Cameron Payne, Rashad Vaughn.

2. Cedi Osman, Montrezl Harrell, Willie Hernangomez, Richaun Holmes, Josh Richardson, Pat Connaughton, Joe Young, Norman Powell.

The first list is of 8 of the 16 guys taken from #3-16 in the 2015 draft. The second list is of 8 of the 16 guys taken from #31-46 in the 2015 draft.

I picked the 2015 draft at random. I'm pretty sure I could make the same point out of most any NBA draft. Do I really have to explain that point? Nah. But I can state it: "NBA teams intel" = b)llsh^t. Pure & simple.

I have no idea how good a player Rui Hachimura will become -- & neither does any of you (great we all hope!). But the idea that his pick position represents the outcome of special secret inside knowledge is bunk, pure & simple.
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Re: Rui Hachimura 

Post#376 » by Ruzious » Fri Aug 9, 2019 9:10 pm

payitforward wrote:It's a great post, yes. Good work, illmatic!

One problem. At the heart of this post is the following statement: "There is certain intel that NBA teams have access to that can’t be accounted for just by looking at stats and the way (a player) was utilized."

Clearly, this is meant as an indication that stats-based analysts can't be expected to get it right in re: how good guys are & where they should go in the draft in the way NBA FOs can -- & clearly, mere guys on e.g. an online Bulletin Board couldn't be expected to be nearly as effective.

Right? Ok, here are 2 lists of names:

1. Jahlil Okafor, Emmanuel Mudiay, Stanley Johnson, Frank Kaminsky, Kelly Oubre, Trey Lyles, Cameron Payne, Rashad Vaughn.

2. Cedi Osman, Montrezl Harrell, Willie Hernangomez, Richaun Holmes, Josh Richardson, Pat Connaughton, Joe Young, Norman Powell.

The first list is of 8 of the 16 guys taken from #3-16 in the 2015 draft. The second list is of 8 of the 16 guys taken from #31-46 in the 2015 draft.

I picked the 2015 draft at random. I'm pretty sure I could make the same point out of most any NBA draft. Do I really have to explain that point? Nah. But I can state it: "NBA teams intel" = b)llsh^t. Pure & simple.

I have no idea how good a player Rui Hachimura will become -- & neither does any of you (great we all hope!). But the idea that his pick position represents the outcome of special secret inside knowledge is bunk, pure & simple.

Some interesting stuff there, but I think when you said "Right?" you were probably wrong, and he meant... what he said. Intel such as medical info, background info that may or may not be pertinent, how he works and plays with others, and any recent developments - such as when Kawhi went to an SA workout with a dramatically improved 3 point shot - which SA said was what convinced them to go after him. These kind of things teams know, and shlubs like us don't have access to that kind of info.
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Re: Rui Hachimura 

Post#377 » by Illmatic12 » Fri Aug 9, 2019 9:55 pm

payitforward wrote:It's a great post, yes. Good work, illmatic!

One problem. At the heart of this post is the following statement: "There is certain intel that NBA teams have access to that can’t be accounted for just by looking at stats and the way (a player) was utilized."

Clearly, this is meant as an indication that stats-based analysts can't be expected to get it right in re: how good guys are & where they should go in the draft in the way NBA FOs can -- & clearly, mere guys on e.g. an online Bulletin Board couldn't be expected to be nearly as effective.

Right? Ok, here are 2 lists of names:

1. Jahlil Okafor, Emmanuel Mudiay, Stanley Johnson, Frank Kaminsky, Kelly Oubre, Trey Lyles, Cameron Payne, Rashad Vaughn.

2. Cedi Osman, Montrezl Harrell, Willie Hernangomez, Richaun Holmes, Josh Richardson, Pat Connaughton, Joe Young, Norman Powell.

The first list is of 8 of the 16 guys taken from #3-16 in the 2015 draft. The second list is of 8 of the 16 guys taken from #31-46 in the 2015 draft.

I picked the 2015 draft at random. I'm pretty sure I could make the same point out of most any NBA draft. Do I really have to explain that point? Nah. But I can state it: "NBA teams intel" = b)llsh^t. Pure & simple.

I have no idea how good a player Rui Hachimura will become -- & neither does any of you (great we all hope!). But the idea that his pick position represents the outcome of special secret inside knowledge is bunk, pure & simple.

Washington , like some other teams, had information about his medicals and his personal life/background that were very pertinent because Hachimura is not a typical NBA draft prospect. His situation is not all that comparable to those other players you named.
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Re: Rui Hachimura 

Post#378 » by payitforward » Sat Aug 10, 2019 2:05 pm

Ruz & Illmatic -- you are both obviously correct. For starters, it goes without saying that they know way more than guys like us do. I'm guessing the analysts, OTOH, get a lot of that info via personal relationships, but your point still holds.

Yet, "know more," can mean a few different things, right. No one would doubt that they work with more data. No one would deny, either, that "more data" allows them to extract more information about players as well. It's almost analytic at that point to say they will have to generate more knowledge as well -- they will know more.

A lot of good it does them.

Derrick Williams still went #2 in the 2011 draft, while Jimmy Butler was the #30 pick, IT was the #60 pick. E'Twaun Moore was picked at #55 (he wears it as his jersey number), while Jimmer Fredette was taken #10.

8 of the 14 lottery picks that year have been bad NBA players. The #1 player taken that year, good as he is, is not the equal of the guy who went #15 -- in fact he's probably not the equal of the guy picked at #30.

Those are the draft results produced by the special intel that NBA teams have but which is lacking to us. So... how come I had Kawhi Leonard as the best player in the draft after Irving? The guy we should take at #6 (unless we wanted to swing for the fences with then mystery man Bismack Biyombo). How come I wanted one of Vucevic (if still there -- he wasn't), Tobias Harris, Kenneth Faried or Jimmy Butler at #18? How come I would never have taken Chris Singleton or either of the Morris twins had they been there?

I'm not blowing my own horn -- it was obvious. I could have explained it to a ten-year old & gotten agreement. But NBA teams still picked Jordan Hamilton, Jajuan Johnson, Norris Cole, Nolan Smith & who knows else, before San Antonio took Cory Joseph @#29 & Chicago took Butler @#30.

Then there's 2012, usually regarded as an outstanding draft. Only thing is... 2 of the top 5 players taken have been busts. 4 of the top 7 have been substantial disappointments in the league.

Make that 5 of the top 8. No, 6 of the top 10. I mean 7 of the top 11. 8 of the top 13.

Picks 16-30 produced 2 acceptable NBA players: Tyler Zeller & Miles Plumlee.

Yet, picks 32-40 that year produced Tomas Satoransky, Jae Crowder, Draymond Green, Khris Middleton & Will Barton. Even further down were Mike Scott & Kyle O'Quinn.

Those are the kinds of draft results produced by the special intel that NBA teams have but which is lacking to us. So... how hard can it be to understand why the special intel we had about Rui Hachimura has absolutely zero predictive value?
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Re: Rui Hachimura 

Post#379 » by Kanyewest » Sat Aug 10, 2019 4:58 pm

payitforward wrote:It's a great post, yes. Good work, illmatic!

One problem. At the heart of this post is the following statement: "There is certain intel that NBA teams have access to that can’t be accounted for just by looking at stats and the way (a player) was utilized."

Clearly, this is meant as an indication that stats-based analysts can't be expected to get it right in re: how good guys are & where they should go in the draft in the way NBA FOs can -- & clearly, mere guys on e.g. an online Bulletin Board couldn't be expected to be nearly as effective.

Right? Ok, here are 2 lists of names:

1. Jahlil Okafor, Emmanuel Mudiay, Stanley Johnson, Frank Kaminsky, Kelly Oubre, Trey Lyles, Cameron Payne, Rashad Vaughn.

2. Cedi Osman, Montrezl Harrell, Willie Hernangomez, Richaun Holmes, Josh Richardson, Pat Connaughton, Joe Young, Norman Powell.


The first list is of 8 of the 16 guys taken from #3-16 in the 2015 draft. The second list is of 8 of the 16 guys taken from #31-46 in the 2015 draft.

I picked the 2015 draft at random. I'm pretty sure I could make the same point out of most any NBA draft. Do I really have to explain that point? Nah. But I can state it: "NBA teams intel" = b)llsh^t. Pure & simple.

I have no idea how good a player Rui Hachimura will become -- & neither does any of you (great we all hope!). But the idea that his pick position represents the outcome of special secret inside knowledge is bunk, pure & simple.


I just wanted to look up who the other players were from 3-16 vs the other players 31-46 who you didn't mention.

Porzingis, Mario Hezonja, Willie Cauley Stein, Justise Winslow, Myles Turner, Devin Booker (BTW Rashad Vaughn was taken at 17)

vs

Jordan Mickey, Anthony Brown, Rakeem Christmas, Darrun Hilliard, Jaun Pablo Vaulet, Oliver Hanlan, and Andrew Harrison
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Re: Rui Hachimura 

Post#380 » by payitforward » Sat Aug 10, 2019 6:53 pm

I don't understand your point. Do you want to prove that some guys taken in R1 were better than some guys taken in R2? That by virtue of all that special intel they have, NBA Front Offices are not always wrong? That they spmetimes pick good players.

Correct. They are not always wrong. In fact, after #3 it becomes more or less random -- just like pinning the tail on the donkey. You're not always wrong when you do that either.

I meant to include Mario Hezonja rather than Vaughn in that list of bad players whom GMs chose high in the draft. You didn't just try to use Hezonja as an example of a "good" player taken high? Did you?

For that matter, is Porzingis "good?" Or is he a guy with "potential?" Who hasn't yet actually been good. Yep, that's the truth about him. Justise Winslow has been a below average NBA player so far.
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