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Rui Hachimura

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Re: Rui Hachimura 

Post#981 » by nate33 » Tue Dec 10, 2019 7:21 pm

Just keeping it real. Fivethirtyeight's RAPTOR ranking ranks Hachimura as the 5th worst player in the NBA:

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Re: Rui Hachimura 

Post#982 » by Ruzious » Tue Dec 10, 2019 7:35 pm

Wow, just as bad defensively as IT. I thought he was overrated by us Zards fans - but not by that much. Actually, I think the 3 worst on that list all have the potential to become quality NBA players.

Btw, I think Thon Maker is the single worst player in the NBA. Has he not played enough to get on that list?
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Re: Rui Hachimura 

Post#983 » by tontoz » Tue Dec 10, 2019 8:28 pm

Rui's defense was alarmingly bad the first few games. At times he might as well been sitting in a chair watching.

I think he has definitely improved during recent games but he doesn't seem like a naturally aggressive guy. He seems engaged on the ball but protecting the rim seems like something new to him. He has been contesting better lately but typically seems a split second slow to react and then gets there late.

I can give him a bit of a pass on making rotations because it takes experience to get them right consistently.

On offense he definitely needs to protect the ball better. He should probably use shot fakes more often. He moves well without the ball and has gotten a lot of easy baskets like Porter used to do.
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Re: Rui Hachimura 

Post#984 » by payitforward » Tue Dec 10, 2019 10:17 pm

Jamaaliver wrote:
NBA Rookie Power Rankings: Rui Hachimura takes over top spot

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1. Rui Hachimura | WAS | PF

PPG: 20.3
RPG: 7.7
APG: 2.7

Last week: Unranked

When you're getting praise from Paul George and Kawhi Leonard, you know you're doing something right. Hachimura had some poor shooting performances last week, but bounced back in a big way against the Los Angeles Clippers. The Wizards lost, however, Hachimura's 30-point performance came in a myriad of ways. He's still struggling with his 3-point shooting, but his touch around the rim, and mid-range game are far beyond where most rookies are at. He's constantly fighting for boards on both ends of the floor, and his defense is what will likely be his greatest asset throughout his career.
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This is really ridiculous. Worse yet, it creates expectations for Rui which he is in no way prepared to fulfill.

He scored well in 2 games. I'm sure he will score well again in other games. The 4 games prior to that pair of performances, he averaged 11 points a game -- that's over a 4-game stretch. The game after the pair of good scoring performances, he went 6-15. So much for scoring "excellence."

The remark about "fighting for boards" is over the top stupid. Rui is averaging 7.8 boards per 40 minutes. As a PF....

As to defense... I give up. Really. I hope he'll be a good defender one day. He has tools. But any praise of his defense right now simply indicates that the writer is paying little or no attention.

I'm sure someone will now pronounce me a "Rui-hater." It's the opposite. What this kid needs is time to show development -- not declarations of how "good" he is now. Because, he isn't.
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Re: Rui Hachimura 

Post#985 » by payitforward » Tue Dec 10, 2019 10:27 pm

nate33 wrote:Just keeping it real. Fivethirtyeight's RAPTOR ranking ranks Hachimura as the 5th worst player in the NBA:

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Well, that's pretty ridiculous...
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Re: Rui Hachimura 

Post#986 » by payitforward » Tue Dec 10, 2019 10:53 pm

To illustrate how inane that is... here are two PFs, player A & player B.

They score exactly the same number of points per 40 minutes.
They commit the same number of fouls.
Player A gets @ 12% more defensive boards than Player B.
A gets 3 times as many offensive boards as B.
Player B turns the ball over more than 2.5 times as often as Player A
B gets less than 1/2 the steals of Player A.

So far there's not much question that A is playing a whole lot better than B, right? It ain't close. Two more data points:

i) on assists & blocked shots, as a whole they are the same (tho distributed differently), &
ii) player B uses @.3 fewer possessions to score the same number of points (not counting those turnovers he commits of course).

I would say that player B is way way way worse than player A, wouldn't you? It's not close. Take away the things that are the same & just look at the rest. TOs, lack of steals, lousy rebounding -- .3 fewer possessions used doesn't make up for that!

But, player A is on the list nate posted. B is not -- horrible though he is.
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Re: Rui Hachimura 

Post#987 » by payitforward » Tue Dec 10, 2019 10:54 pm

Oh, yeah, I forgot...

Who is player A?
Spoiler:
Rui Hachimura

Who is player B?
Spoiler:
Kyle Kuzma
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Re: Rui Hachimura 

Post#988 » by ruffian253 » Tue Dec 10, 2019 11:14 pm

payitforward wrote:Rui has shown that he can play in the NBA -- at some level. He's not a bust, & he's not going to be one.

Has he shown that he can play well enough in the NBA to be, say, a really solid journeyman? No, sorry, he hasn't. By that I mean that there's no stretch of 5-7 games in which he's performed reasonably well over the whole stretch. But, he's a rookie! & a relatively inexperienced rookie at that, basketball-wise.

People got excited when he went for 30 & 27 in a pair of games. No one looked at the rest of what he did in those games. No one looked at the fact that the previous 4 games he'd averaged 11 points/game. Today no one mentions that he went 6-15 & 6 boards in 39 minutes last night.

That's fine. It's just the way fans are. Right now fans here are saving their fire for Troy Brown (who's playing a whole lot better than Rui! Playing very well in fact). Last year, Troy was the rookie: everybody loved him. He was a great pick. This year Rui is the "great pick."

Fine. Fans. Hey, someone here was crowning RoY about 4 games into the season! :)

Is Kawhi right that Rui will "get better" with "more games under his belt?" Of course! As will P.J. Washington. As will Nassir Little. As will Ja Morant & Admiral Schofield. As will most every NBA rookie. Be kind of weird if one couldn't feel some confidence in that kind of statement.

What can we learn from Kawhi's comment about the kind of, quality of, player Rui Hachimura will be? Nothing. Not a thing.



Been a long time Gonzaga fan and I have now become a Wizards fan and been following this board regularly. But there is one common theme i have noticed is that payitforward is (although will never admit it) is the biggest Rui hater here. Unfortunately, the draft is over with and Tommy Sheppard didnt parlay the #9 pick for Brandon Clarke and another draft pick, but guess what, 20 other teams passed on him as well.

Being a zags fan, i like BC alot also, but the expectations between Rui and BC are completely different where Rui is being groomed to be a scorer/2nd-3rd scorer/all-star and BC is and will always be hustle/all-effort guy ala montrez harrel, cedric ceballos, jae crowder, taureen prince type.

Just to say Troy Brown is playing better than Rui now or ever is just WOW, considering Rui's play this past week earned him the Top Rookie spot... :banghead:
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Re: Rui Hachimura 

Post#989 » by Ruzious » Tue Dec 10, 2019 11:56 pm

ruffian253 wrote:
payitforward wrote:Rui has shown that he can play in the NBA -- at some level. He's not a bust, & he's not going to be one.

Has he shown that he can play well enough in the NBA to be, say, a really solid journeyman? No, sorry, he hasn't. By that I mean that there's no stretch of 5-7 games in which he's performed reasonably well over the whole stretch. But, he's a rookie! & a relatively inexperienced rookie at that, basketball-wise.

People got excited when he went for 30 & 27 in a pair of games. No one looked at the rest of what he did in those games. No one looked at the fact that the previous 4 games he'd averaged 11 points/game. Today no one mentions that he went 6-15 & 6 boards in 39 minutes last night.

That's fine. It's just the way fans are. Right now fans here are saving their fire for Troy Brown (who's playing a whole lot better than Rui! Playing very well in fact). Last year, Troy was the rookie: everybody loved him. He was a great pick. This year Rui is the "great pick."

Fine. Fans. Hey, someone here was crowning RoY about 4 games into the season! :)

Is Kawhi right that Rui will "get better" with "more games under his belt?" Of course! As will P.J. Washington. As will Nassir Little. As will Ja Morant & Admiral Schofield. As will most every NBA rookie. Be kind of weird if one couldn't feel some confidence in that kind of statement.

What can we learn from Kawhi's comment about the kind of, quality of, player Rui Hachimura will be? Nothing. Not a thing.



Been a long time Gonzaga fan and I have now become a Wizards fan and been following this board regularly. But there is one common theme i have noticed is that payitforward is (although will never admit it) is the biggest Rui hater here. Unfortunately, the draft is over with and Tommy Sheppard didnt parlay the #9 pick for Brandon Clarke and another draft pick, but guess what, 20 other teams passed on him as well.

Being a zags fan, i like BC alot also, but the expectations between Rui and BC are completely different where Rui is being groomed to be a scorer/2nd-3rd scorer/all-star and BC is and will always be hustle/all-effort guy ala montrez harrel, cedric ceballos, jae crowder, taureen prince type.

Just to say Troy Brown is playing better than Rui now or ever is just WOW, considering Rui's play this past week earned him the Top Rookie spot... :banghead:

On the season, their stats are about even. Rui has scored better, but Troy's doing better in pretty much everything else.
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Re: Rui Hachimura 

Post#990 » by payitforward » Wed Dec 11, 2019 12:13 am

Glad you're here Ruffian -- but... whether you can see it or not, I'm still not a Rui hater -- not in the least. How a GM could/should/did/didn't use a particular draft pick/position well is a strategy & analysis issue that has nothing to do with "liking" one player or another.

& of course I'm sure you know that pick position, GMs passing on a guy, etc., none of that means anything. After all, what do Derrick Williams, Jan Vesely, Bismack Biyombo, Brandon Knight, Jimmer Fredette, Alec Burks, the Morris twins, Iman Shumpert, Chris Singleton, Donatas Motiejunas, Nolan Smith, Nikola Mirotic, Kenneth Faried, Reggie Jackson, Marshon Brooks, Jordan Hamilton, Jajuan Johnson, Norris Cole & Cory Joseph have in common? & what do the first bunch of those guys have in common with Tristan Thompson, Enes Kanter, Jonas Valanciunas, Klay Thompson, Kyrie Irving, & Kemba Walker?

In fact, I like Rui a lot: he is a very gifted kid, & he has a chance to be an outstanding NBA player. I hope that's what happens.

As to the players in the league whom you think are being groomed for this or that or who OTOH are only "hustle/all-effort" types, well... lets just leave at saying that you might want to take another look at Montrezl Harrell for example.

Hey, great to read Cedric Ceballos's name -- thanks!
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Re: Rui Hachimura 

Post#991 » by payitforward » Wed Dec 11, 2019 12:29 am

Ruzious wrote:
ruffian253 wrote:...Just to say Troy Brown is playing better than Rui now or ever is just WOW, considering Rui's play this past week earned him the Top Rookie spot... :banghead:

On the season, their stats are about even. Rui has scored better, but Troy's doing better in pretty much everything else.

Their numbers don't look about even to me, Ruz. Rui's TS% is 1.3% better than Troy's -- but an average 4 is 1.2% above an average 3 in that number.

Still, Rui is also scoring more, higher usage, so -- sure -- give him the edge in scoring. But, Troy is doing so very much more in all the rest of the stuff that the overall result isn't even close.

In any case, when I made the comparison it wasn't to ding Rui -- he's a rookie! Troy's playing a whole lot better this year than when he was the rookie! It was to counter the pointless criticism being leveled at him.

It's worth mentioning that I didn't think Troy Brown Jr. was a great pick at #15 last year -- not at all. I thought he'd be available lower in the round & that we should have traded down, if possible -- maybe with Philly or Atanta?

Anyway, Rufian is, as he says, a big time Gonzaga fan: makes sense for him to be enthusiastic about Rui. He won't be able to pick a fight with me, that's for sure!

I only argue with people who've been right about something, or a lot of things. You know... like you! :)
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Re: Rui Hachimura 

Post#992 » by prime1time » Wed Dec 11, 2019 5:25 am

We need this kind of rebounding from Rui every night. If Doncic can average 9.2 rebounds, so can Rui. For this team to reach its full potential Rui will need to become a double-double guy. And either learn to draw charges, block shots or both. All in all, I'm satisfied with the way he's been played so far but he has a long way to go.

Also, the suggestion that Rui has been the 5th worst player in the NBA is laughable. Go and read about their goals for creating that statistical analysis. They wanted to create an analysis to mirror how teams value players. I guarantee you that no team in the NBA would rate Rui as the 5th worst player. Does he have room to improve? Yes. But something like that doesn't even contribute to the conversation. If he's the 5th worst player in the league we should be talking about kicking him off the team and cutting our losses.
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Re: Rui Hachimura 

Post#993 » by prime1time » Wed Dec 11, 2019 5:27 am

Also, how about Rui's FT shooting so far? That might be the most shocking aspect of his game. If he could get his FT rate up, that would be really beneficial. Now hopefully his 3-point shooting will have a similar breakthrough.
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Re: Rui Hachimura 

Post#994 » by Ruzious » Wed Dec 11, 2019 5:55 am

payitforward wrote:
Ruzious wrote:
ruffian253 wrote:...Just to say Troy Brown is playing better than Rui now or ever is just WOW, considering Rui's play this past week earned him the Top Rookie spot... :banghead:

On the season, their stats are about even. Rui has scored better, but Troy's doing better in pretty much everything else.

Their numbers don't look about even to me, Ruz. Rui's TS% is 1.3% better than Troy's -- but an average 4 is 1.2% above an average 3 in that number.

Still, Rui is also scoring more, higher usage, so -- sure -- give him the edge in scoring. But, Troy is doing so very much more in all the rest of the stuff that the overall result isn't even close.

In any case, when I made the comparison it wasn't to ding Rui -- he's a rookie! Troy's playing a whole lot better this year than when he was the rookie! It was to counter the pointless criticism being leveled at him.

It's worth mentioning that I didn't think Troy Brown Jr. was a great pick at #15 last year -- not at all. I thought he'd be available lower in the round & that we should have traded down, if possible -- maybe with Philly or Atanta?

Anyway, Rufian is, as he says, a big time Gonzaga fan: makes sense for him to be enthusiastic about Rui. He won't be able to pick a fight with me, that's for sure!

I only argue with people who've been right about something, or a lot of things. You know... like you! :)

I wasn't crazy for either pick - though I wasn't horrified with either pick. I'm a bit more comfortable with Brown than Rui. Rui needs more work, but he's such a hard worker that he might eventually get there. He does some basic things wrong. It's not just that he goes for every fake, but when he does that - he gets himself out of position to rebound. If he could just stop doing that, his defense and rebounding will both improve. And his long jumpers are often flat, because he doesn't always release the ball off of his fingertips. The ball sometimes hits the palm or heal of his hand when he's shooting. These are all correctible things, but they're so basic, ya gotta wonder why he never learned them, and does he have the capacity to do so - even though he seems like a smart guy.

Brown, otoh, just needs to get stronger and develop a more consistent 3 ball. And even though he's got an extra year of NBA experience, he's a year younger.
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Re: Rui Hachimura 

Post#995 » by oldshoolballer » Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:50 am

Rui's last 6 games 20.1ppg 7.8 Reb 2.5 Assists on 47.8% shooting 3pt an awful 20% Defense needs a lot of work but so far I'm very happy with him.Just looking at some other rooks the shooting is pretty horrible Barret 38% Garland 37.5% Hunter 41% Culver 38.4% Reddish 32.4% White 35.8%.
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Re: Rui Hachimura 

Post#996 » by nate33 » Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:54 pm

payitforward wrote:To illustrate how inane that is... here are two PFs, player A & player B.

They score exactly the same number of points per 40 minutes.
They commit the same number of fouls.
Player A gets @ 12% more defensive boards than Player B.
A gets 3 times as many offensive boards as B.
Player B turns the ball over more than 2.5 times as often as Player A
B gets less than 1/2 the steals of Player A.

So far there's not much question that A is playing a whole lot better than B, right? It ain't close. Two more data points:

i) on assists & blocked shots, as a whole they are the same (tho distributed differently), &
ii) player B uses @.3 fewer possessions to score the same number of points (not counting those turnovers he commits of course).

I would say that player B is way way way worse than player A, wouldn't you? It's not close. Take away the things that are the same & just look at the rest. TOs, lack of steals, lousy rebounding -- .3 fewer possessions used doesn't make up for that!

But, player A is on the list nate posted. B is not -- horrible though he is.

I think RAPTOR uses a lot of massaged on/off data more so than box score data.
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Re: Rui Hachimura 

Post#997 » by payitforward » Wed Dec 11, 2019 4:41 pm

oldshoolballer wrote:Rui's last 6 games 20.1ppg 7.8 Reb 2.5 Assists on 47.8% shooting 3pt an awful 20% Defense needs a lot of work but so far I'm very happy with him.Just looking at some other rooks the shooting is pretty horrible Barret 38% Garland 37.5% Hunter 41% Culver 38.4% Reddish 32.4% White 35.8%.

Rui's been better than all those guys. Not just shooting. Not to mention that all of them except Reddish were taken before him.

Which shows the following: if you compare Rui to guys who are playing worse than him, he will look good compared to them. What happens if you compare him to guys who are playing better than him? Gee... he doesn't look good compared to them. How about that?

Here are the other rookies playing 20+ minutes a game: Paschall, Washington, Hunter, Nunn, Barrett, Herro, Garland, White, Bowman, Poole, Culver, Reddish, Morant, Porter, Johnson, Hayes & Clarke.

Of those 17 guys, Paschall, Washington, Herro, Bowman, Morant, Johnson, Hayes & Clarke have been more productive than Rui overall.

Of those 8, only Paschall & Washington have played more minutes than Rui (Herro is only 24 minutes behind him).

Only 1 of them (Hayes) was taken before Rui. It's worth noting that Paschall was a R2 pick, & Bowman was signed undrafted. Both by GS -- couple of sharp moves there.

If you look at the guys people here (not me) hoped we could get, Rui wasn't on that list. It was Hunter (above all), Garland & White. Doumbuoya came on strong towards the end, when folks were convinced that -- sadly -- we would miss on Hunter.

Zards' 2d choice behind Hunter was P.J. Washington -- the only one I can remember who expressed that clearly. He gets some credit for that, I'd say, since he was the only one to call out the guy, & since Washington has played well. At the same time, of course, he was pretty firmly for Hunter if available. &, he wavered towards Nassir Little a bit as well....

Neither he nor anyone here -- to all of whom it is now utterly obvious that the guy was the only possible choice -- wanted Rui Hachimura. The herd has now moved to him, of course.

A few of us wanted Clarke -- not with the #9 pick, that wasn't going to be necessary. We wanted to trade down to get Clarke & one or two more players. & it's kind of obvious at this point that he's a ton better than a whole bunch of guys picked near the top of the draft -- look at that bunch of non-performers mentioned above!

In truth, however, the only reason he gets compared to Hachimura all the time -- aside from the fact that so far he's played so very much better than Rui, or any other rookie for that matter -- is that they both went to Gonzaga.

I don't know how Rui will turn out, though for sure he's made the first & most important step of showing that he isn't a bust. For that reason alone you should all be happy that you didn't get the guy you wanted!
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Re: Rui Hachimura 

Post#998 » by dobrojim » Wed Dec 11, 2019 5:05 pm

payitforward wrote:Which shows the following: if you compare Rui to guys who are playing worse than him, he will look good compared to them. What happens if you compare him to guys who are playing better than him? Gee... he doesn't look good compared to them. How about that?



Or as one of my fav Don Meredith quotes goes "It's unlucky to be behind at the end of the game".

In spite of the eventual point totals last night (in CHA), he seemed to become really tentative
in his shooting once he missed a couple. It was kinda like he felt he needed to take the shots
but had no expectation they would fall.

Re his prospects to become really good (or just a middlin' player), who knows for sure?
It's still very much early days.
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Re: Rui Hachimura 

Post#999 » by payitforward » Thu Dec 12, 2019 2:15 am

No one knows whether he will, that's true. But, there's not much question that he's quite gifted, & he seems a hard worker. So... he has a shot.

edit: but that does not mean that the most effective thing to do with the #9 pick was to nab Rui. Not at all.
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Re: Rui Hachimura 

Post#1000 » by DCZards » Thu Dec 12, 2019 3:26 am

payitforward wrote:No one knows whether he will, that's true. But, there's not much question that he's quite gifted, & he seems a hard worker. So... he has a shot.

edit: but that does not mean that the most effective thing to do with the #9 pick was to nab Rui. Not at all.


Picking Rui or anyone else at #9 may not have been the most effective thing to do but it may have been the Zards only option. Unless you know for sure that there were other options, such as trading down for multiple picks.

I say we move on from speculation about the draft and the possibilities, and embrace Rui. As Stephen Stills sings: “Love The One You’re With.”

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