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The Wizards Plan (cracking the Beal Wall Tommy Wizards)

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Re: The Wizards Plan (cracking the Beal Wall Tommy Wizards) 

Post#61 » by Illmatic12 » Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:39 pm

SUPERBALLMAN wrote:
Illmatic12 wrote:
payitforward wrote:Yeah... that's kind of a silly idea. & a bad one too.

I don't think it makes sense to think about "building a team around X/Y." Just take the time it takes, & get the best players possible.

That’s exactly what the Wizards would be looking to do in a trade. Leveraging the value of an unknown draft prospect to acquire the best available young players. All depends on where the pick lands and who’s available on the trade market, of course


This is basically where we were... Wall and Beal, with another guy... Otto. Or Oubre. Or Parker. If that's what we were doing why not just keep one of them? We have to move Wall. I gave a pretty detailed explanation before. Wall and Beal isn't going to work. We need a top tier player, like a top 8 player in the league to contend. Neither Beal or Wall are at that level. You can team Beal with that level of player and contend. You can team Wall with that level player and contend. But not Beal and Wall together. Wall was supposed to be that type of player when we drafted him, but he's not. He's good, he's not that good. And with both guys maxed, one has to go.

Ideally Wall comes back at a reasonably high percentage of what he was and we can deal him to a team that needs a PG in exchange for some package of expirings, so we can go after a big time free agent summer 2021.

It’s not about whether Wall and Beal will contend . Its about using one move to line up the next one.

If we are able to trade for an emerging young player on a reasonable contract (just to throw a random name out there.. let’s say we package our pick for Myles Turner) , it improves the team in the present but also sets us up to move Wall later down the line and bring in a 3rd elite piece who fits the Beal/Turner/Hachimura/etc timeline.

You are falling in the trap of only thinking one step ahead when we should be thinking about the next 2-3 steps. It’s fine if we don’t trade Wall right now , we just need to be in position to pivot quickly once that opportunity becomes available.
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Re: The Wizards Plan (cracking the Beal Wall Tommy Wizards) 

Post#62 » by doclinkin » Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:16 pm

payitforward wrote:(I redacted the continuing stuff about the team/players from this, because it struck me that it had reached the vanishing point of interest & ought to be allowed to disappear over the horizon.)


Hah! You redacted the conversation about basketball to talk about personal stuff. :clown: Pretty much why I blew you up in the first place. You jumped into a thread, deemed the topic irrelevant and then dismissed everyone who was discussing it. If I pissed you off in that context, so be it. Just recognize when you do that you are pisssing off everyone else.

On the topic:
payitforward wrote:These are fair questions.
doclinkin wrote:If ownership or circumstances said you had to keep Wall and Beal and build a team around them. What kind of team would you build?

I would always do the same thing: acquire the very best players possible & let them (& a good coaching staff) figure out how to play together effectively. That's different from "build a team." I would handle position balance issues via trades -- &, obviously, the better player I have to trade the better player I can expect to get back in a trade, so that still doesn't imply a different strategy.

I would never think about need but would always choose the BPA at any draft pick (or trade down if I thought it would get me more overall value). When GS took Draymond, it wasn't b/c he could help them "build a team." He could do that, because of how good a player he was & is! That was why to take him. Duh.


To me while I understand and generally agree with the philosophy of Best Player Available and then shaping the team to fit the players, I get the feeling this team thinks it is smarter than that. That's what I think I've been sniffing in how they are shaping the team. So many of the statements they made in the press conference reporting their front office team had to do with analytics and their use not just in building a team but in coaching etc.

Then they hired Dean Oliver -- and instead of putting him in the front office, they made him an assistant coach on Scotty Brooks' staff:

“This is my first time having somebody that really emphasizes (analytics) — and it’s his background, (his) passion that you wouldn’t believe — on my staff,” Brooks said. “We’ve had a department, but we’ve never had a guy that is gonna be so connected. … He’s gonna be involved. He’s gonna definitely have equity in how we play.”


Until his hire Dean was working with TruMedia networks, using computer monitoring players on a play by play basis to develop advanced analytics in the NFL to analyze players' effectiveness in different coverages etc. Dean was one of the early advocates of tracking cameras to develop situational analysis beyond box score stats.

There's an arms race in basketball and while depth of personnel and talent ultimately win, other teams have to find an edge in order to compete. Tommy seems to be going all in fully committing to analytics as his edge. I think they have seen something they think they like in how to build a team. With a background in international scouting, and with Johnny Rogers having a similar background, and with experiece as a GM in European leagues. It looks to me like they are very much trying to build something like the Club system that the Euro leagues use to raise kids to play the right way from an early age.

I get the sense the team thinks they have identified something they think is worth building as a core philosophy. A Wizards Way the way Baseball teams have a system they apply in the minors all the way up to the Big Leagues. Yes part of that's about hiring players with a tough minded attitude and ethic for hard work. Yes they want to take scrappy players over talented headaches (see Devin Robinson's quick dismissal). But part of it likely has to do with teaching a system that players understand and all can work with. Read up on the Croatian basketball academies that produce such a wealth of basketball talent from a country with a population half as large as New York City.

In the press conference the team was talking about integration and cross pollination between WNBA, GLeague and the NBA. They featured Mystics Coach Mike Thibault in the press conference and Tommy made it clear they were consulting him for expertise. The Mystics started winning significantly how: with outside shooting Bigs and interior attacking ballhandlers.

Then even after starting this thread they hire Antawn Jamison as a director of Pro Personnel, overseeing scouting of players for the NBA G-League and Internationally..

“We are absolutely thrilled to bring Antawn back to the Wizards organization,” said Wizards general manager Tommy Sheppard. “In addition to his strong feel for the game and basketball knowledge, he has always been a true professional and a dedicated worker


Tell me what 'Tawn is noted for. What was his 'strong feel for the game'. Defense and toughness? They're not hiring Charles Oakley here. What team did Jamison ever play on that was noted for a defensive emphasis.

No. As I mentioned elsewhere the league emphasis on the no-hand-check rule meant that the addition of players like Jamison could turn attacking combo guards into primary scorers. Overseas David Blatt ran his Princeton offense hybrid to multiple Euro titles with outside shooting bigs and ballhandling guards.

I don't know folks. Still seems to me that Tommy Sheppard wants to build a European ballclub from the AAU level up to the NBA. And he thinks he has numbers and video that supports that as a smart idea. We will see.
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Re: The Wizards Plan (cracking the Beal Wall Tommy Wizards) 

Post#63 » by DCZards » Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:20 pm

payitforward wrote:
DCZards wrote:If Wall is healthy and playing well why would you trade him?...

Not suggesting that there's no deal that you would agree was good. But, your "set" is clearly not the neutral one you adopt about trading our next year's R1 pick.


Of course, I’m not neutral on Wall. I know how good and impactful WallStar can be when healthy and playing well.

I can’t say the same about a draft pick who hasn’t played a minute of NBA ball. So, yes, I’m much more neutral regarding keeping the pick.
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Re: The Wizards Plan (cracking the Beal Wall Tommy Wizards) 

Post#64 » by payitforward » Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:18 am

DCZards wrote:
payitforward wrote:
DCZards wrote:If Wall is healthy and playing well why would you trade him?...

Not suggesting that there's no deal that you would agree was good. But, your "set" is clearly not the neutral one you adopt about trading our next year's R1 pick.

Of course, I’m not neutral on Wall. I know how good and impactful WallStar can be when healthy and playing well.

I can’t say the same about a draft pick who hasn’t played a minute of NBA ball. So, yes, I’m much more neutral regarding keeping the pick.

Hard to argue with this! :) ...or it would be if my point were to compare John Wall with a draft pick.

Of course... John Wall was once a draft pick, wasn't he? We could have gotten a lot for that pick in 2010, right? Guys we knew were "good and impactful," something we could not know about some 1-&-done PG in the draft.

Where would those guys be now? The ones we could have gotten for that pick? Guys who could "help us now" rather than "might help us some day" like a 19-year old rookie pick.

It'd be interesting to go back over the history of teams trading away draft picks & compare what they get with what it turns out they've given up. I'm pretty sure that if looked at closely it would start to be obvious what a bad idea it is.

In our case, it should be kind of obvious -- just look back at 2016 & 2017. So, no, I don't think it's such a good idea to be neutral about a draft pick. Whom you draft, how well you draft, these are the single most important things to measure a FO by.
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Re: The Wizards Plan (cracking the Beal Wall Tommy Wizards) 

Post#65 » by SUPERBALLMAN » Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:28 am

Illmatic12 wrote:
SUPERBALLMAN wrote:
Illmatic12 wrote:That’s exactly what the Wizards would be looking to do in a trade. Leveraging the value of an unknown draft prospect to acquire the best available young players. All depends on where the pick lands and who’s available on the trade market, of course


This is basically where we were... Wall and Beal, with another guy... Otto. Or Oubre. Or Parker. If that's what we were doing why not just keep one of them? We have to move Wall. I gave a pretty detailed explanation before. Wall and Beal isn't going to work. We need a top tier player, like a top 8 player in the league to contend. Neither Beal or Wall are at that level. You can team Beal with that level of player and contend. You can team Wall with that level player and contend. But not Beal and Wall together. Wall was supposed to be that type of player when we drafted him, but he's not. He's good, he's not that good. And with both guys maxed, one has to go.

Ideally Wall comes back at a reasonably high percentage of what he was and we can deal him to a team that needs a PG in exchange for some package of expirings, so we can go after a big time free agent summer 2021.

It’s not about whether Wall and Beal will contend . Its about using one move to line up the next one.

If we are able to trade for an emerging young player on a reasonable contract (just to throw a random name out there.. let’s say we package our pick for Myles Turner) , it improves the team in the present but also sets us up to move Wall later down the line and bring in a 3rd elite piece who fits the Beal/Turner/Hachimura/etc timeline.

You are falling in the trap of only thinking one step ahead when we should be thinking about the next 2-3 steps. It’s fine if we don’t trade Wall right now , we just need to be in position to pivot quickly once that opportunity becomes available.



Turner makes like 20 mil per year. You can't trade a draft pick for that kind of salary and be able to do anything else. It's why we didn't keep any of Otto, Oubre, Portis, Parker. We have to add talent as we've been doing in the brief Tommy Sheppard era by means of the draft, waived pick ups, and minor low cost trades (hitting singles) so we can make the big move when the opportunity arises. We have to lose salary (Mahinmi, Wall), not add salary (Turner).


If you read my previous post about the plan, I'm thinking about the next 5-6 steps ahead.... Which includes the logical if not mandatory step of trading Wall.
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Re: The Wizards Plan (cracking the Beal Wall Tommy Wizards) 

Post#66 » by SUPERBALLMAN » Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:31 am

Here's the full multi-tier detailed explanation of the plan....



SUPERBALLMAN wrote:The plan foundation is to make the Wizards relevant as a viable free agent destination first and foremost. 2016 this team was not able to even secure a meeting with KD, and was passed over for Boston by Horford. The Wizards were left to settle for Mahinmi, Jason Smith and Andrew Nicholson. this off-season there was talk of the Clippers trading for Beal to entice free agent Kawhi, but the Wizards were never a candidate despite already having Beal. Etc, etc... What free agents have The Wizards been able to attract in recent years? An aging Paul Pierce probably tops The list. Jeff Green, Dwight Howard, Jodie Meeks... The list is incredibly anemic. The Wizards are never even mentioned as a possibility anytime a free agent is on the market, or a player has requested a trade and becomes available, the Wizards aren't even a consideration despite having all stars Wall and Beal. Something has to change because as of now the Wizards are TOTALLY irrelevant.

IMO Plan A is to build the team around Beal, and feature him as the main bait to attract a major FA, along with an influx of young talent and improved infrastructure, to create an image of an up and coming organization. Ted has been busy this off-season completely overhauling the management structure of Monumental Basketball, in an effort to create a "world class" organization. A team that can offer players first class facilities, coaching, analytics, training and medical, player support and counseling, post career opportunities, etc. This in theory will make D.C. worth looking into and considering for prospective free agents, which until now is something that has not been happening. The other part of the equation is the on court product being replenished with young improving talent that can compliment said free agent while being low cost so not to impede the financial abilities of the team to make this a legitimate destination. Tommy described this off-season as hitting a bunch of singles. Well the benefit of hitting a bunch of singles is that it sets you up so when you do hit a homerun it's a grand slam!

I believe the path to achieve this includes the trading of Wall. To be able to offer a max deal to acquire a top tier FA we need major cap space. To be a contender in this league, you need a top 5 caliber player. The quickest and surest way to do that is free agency. We can continue to try to get one in the draft but it is a long shot and Beal's window is starting to close. Neither Wall or Beal are top 5 caliber, and I don't think we can ever contend with Wall and Beal both at max salary because we can't add enough to it. One has to go, and given Wall's injury and age, he seems to be the logical choice to move. Ideally he comes back and shows he is healthy and able to play at a high level starter caliber PG, and we are able to deal him for expiring contracts to free up that cap space. Target date 2020 off-season or prior to trade deadline 20/21 season. We keep Beal as a high caliber player a top 5 level player can come here to team up with and make this a contending situation.

19/20 season focus on rehab of Wall, establishing Beal as franchise player and a star of the league, extend him if possible, develop young supporting cast Hachimura, TBJ, Bryant, Bonga, Admiral, Wagner, etc.

Off-season 2020 Mahinmi off the books. Begin process of moving Wall for expirings. Fire Scott Brooks and hire Sam Cassell Head Coach, (continue the siphoning of Clippers management). Sam is from Baltimore, was great here as an assistant and liked by the players (including Beal), has tutored under Flip and Doc, and would be a great fit for where we are as an organization as we enter the next phase of The Plan.

2020 Draft 1st round target PG. Candidate Cole Anthony (UNC), checks the Tommy boxes high IQ high motor & good coaching. Possible Wall insurance/replacement.

http://www.nbadraftroom.com/p/2020-nba-mock-draft.html

http://www.nbadraftroom.com/p/cole-anthony.html

2020 2nd round , I believe we have Bulls pick for Satoransky (we dealt our pick for Jared Dudley). Candidate Killian Tillie (Gonzaga). Stretch 4, Hachimura's teammate last season could be potential Bertans replacement.

http://www.nbadraftroom.com/p/2020-2nd-round.html

http://www.nbadraftroom.com/p/killian-tillie.html


2021 Draft 1st round, candidate combo guard Bryan Antoine (Villanova). From NBADraftroom.com "Antoine puts in work on both ends of the floor and always plays the game hard. He's a focused, team- first player and a winner."

http://www.nbadraftroom.com/2017/01/bryan-antoine.html


2021 Draft 2nd round, candidate Center Oumar Ballo (Gonzaga). One of his comps is Bryant. I'm not sure we have 2021 2nd rounder, I think we traded it for Trey Burke? If not we should be able to buy a 2nd rounder.

http://www.nbadraftroom.com/p/oumar-ballo_6.html

http://www.nbadraftroom.com/p/2021-2nd-round.html



2021 Free Agent target PF Giannis Antetokounmpo

He is the logical primary Plan A target. A star top tier player, very marketable "The Greek Freak"!, coming from a smaller market, UFA in his prime and at the right timetable for us 2021, high character, hard worker, high motor, dominant, a perfect tandem with Beal.


Potential 2021 Roster

C - Bryant, Wagner, Ballo
PF- Antetokounmpo, Tillie
SF- Hachimura, TBJ, Admiral, Jones
SG- Beal, Antoine, Bonga
PG- Anthony, Sanon, Robinson


Roster is versatile with Hachimura at PF/SF, Antetokounmpo PF/C, TBJ 1-3, etc. Players such as Jones, Robinson, Admiral, Wagner may or may not be here and may be replaced with other young players or low cost free agents or acquisitions, but I list them because I see them as having the Potential skill to possibly stick here , and to show a full Potential 15 man roster. I realize the draft targets are impossible to predict so far out, but I tried to focus on prospects that as of now look to be forecasted to where we can pick them, and tried to pinpoint players that seem to embody the Tommy characteristics; good programs and coaching (Gonzaga, Villanova, UNC), players scouted as high IQ high motor, will play defense, classified as winners and leaders, team players, coachable, etc. And we know from Hachimura Tommy will locate players well in advance and track them to study their progress and background as they develop. These players I chose as draft candidates appear to have these traits and could be legitimate Tommy targets. Additionally I just want to demonstrate the type of talent we can realistically add to the team by 2021 by following the plan.


Keep in mind this is an outline of a PLAN A scenario. There are infinite plan B possibilities with various draft outcomes and free agent targets etc. But the principle philosophy of the "plan" is move Wall for cap space, extend Beal to pair with a top tier FA, and continue to add through the draft and low cost young high character players.
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Re: The Wizards Plan (cracking the Beal Wall Tommy Wizards) 

Post#67 » by TunaFish » Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:42 am

Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:There are good things happening in the front office.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2849636-wizards-owner-ted-leonsis-called-barack-obama-for-advice-about-team-direction

Leonsis also sought the advice of NBA commissioner Adam Silver, San Antonio Spurs coach Gregg Popovich and agent Rich Paul, among others. Silver advised Leonsis to speak with Mike Forde and his consulting group, Sportsology.

The Wizards ultimately wound up hiring Tommy Sheppard to spearhead their basketball operations department and made a number of hires to expand Monumental Basketball. Those hires also included former Cleveland Browns general manager Sashi Brown, who said he did not plan on landing a job with the franchise.


I am surprised that the hiring of Sashi Brown has not been commented on here. Isn't he an analytics guy who oversaw the complete tear down of the Browns?

Wouldn't this signal that the Wizards may be headed for reconstruction or am I reading too much into this move?
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Re: The Wizards Plan (cracking the Beal Wall Tommy Wizards) 

Post#68 » by JAR69 » Mon Aug 19, 2019 3:33 am

DCZards wrote:
Illmatic12 wrote:
payitforward wrote:Yeah... that's kind of a silly idea. & a bad one too.

I don't think it makes sense to think about "building a team around X/Y." Just take the time it takes, & get the best players possible.

That’s exactly what the Wizards would be looking to do in a trade. Leveraging the value of an unknown draft prospect to acquire the best available young players. All depends on where the pick lands and who’s available on the trade market, of course


Jar81's point that the Zards might need to trade the 2020 lottery pick for a player (ideally a young one) ready to play at a high level is not one that's been discussed here...as far as I can tell. But I wouldn't rule it out. As you say illmatic12, it depends on who's available for the pick. Need to keep your options open.


Just to be clear, I'm not advocating trading the 2020 pick. I'm trying to apply the premise of the thread, which is that the Wizards' plan is to build around Wall/Beal and that we should try to figure out what kind of team would be built around them (and how). In trying to predict how the front office, even one with EG, might approach this, it seems to me that drafting a young (even if talented) player in 2020 makes the Wall/Beal plan harder to accomplish than acquiring a more developed player. There already are two young pieces (Brown and Hach) who will need to develop quickly to get on a reasonable time frame to build around Wall/Beal. A 2020 selection will be even less developed, but the pick has value that could be turned into a player who might better fit the timeline. DC Zards and/or Illmatic mentioned several possible players, including some who could be part of a package. Anunoby and Bridges were two who I thought have potential in my eyes (at least the rookie version of OG). They would likely need to be in a package - depending on how high the pick is.
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Re: The Wizards Plan (cracking the Beal Wall Tommy Wizards) 

Post#69 » by Illmatic12 » Mon Aug 19, 2019 3:35 am

TunaFish wrote:
Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:There are good things happening in the front office.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2849636-wizards-owner-ted-leonsis-called-barack-obama-for-advice-about-team-direction

Leonsis also sought the advice of NBA commissioner Adam Silver, San Antonio Spurs coach Gregg Popovich and agent Rich Paul, among others. Silver advised Leonsis to speak with Mike Forde and his consulting group, Sportsology.

The Wizards ultimately wound up hiring Tommy Sheppard to spearhead their basketball operations department and made a number of hires to expand Monumental Basketball. Those hires also included former Cleveland Browns general manager Sashi Brown, who said he did not plan on landing a job with the franchise.


I am surprised that the hiring of Sashi Brown has not been commented on here. Isn't he an analytics guy who oversaw the complete tear down of the Browns?

Wouldn't this signal that the Wizards may be headed for reconstruction or am I reading too much into this move?

That was a lot of people’s initial reaction but then it was clarified that Brown wont have input on basketball decisions. He’s mainly being brought in to work on the marketing/operations side and for his legal background (Brown is a Harvard Law grad iirc)
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Re: The Wizards Plan (cracking the Beal Wall Tommy Wizards) 

Post#70 » by SUPERBALLMAN » Mon Aug 19, 2019 3:53 am

JAR69 wrote:
DCZards wrote:
Illmatic12 wrote:That’s exactly what the Wizards would be looking to do in a trade. Leveraging the value of an unknown draft prospect to acquire the best available young players. All depends on where the pick lands and who’s available on the trade market, of course


Jar81's point that the Zards might need to trade the 2020 lottery pick for a player (ideally a young one) ready to play at a high level is not one that's been discussed here...as far as I can tell. But I wouldn't rule it out. As you say illmatic12, it depends on who's available for the pick. Need to keep your options open.


Just to be clear, I'm not advocating trading the 2020 pick. I'm trying to apply the premise of the thread, which is that the Wizards' plan is to build around Wall/Beal and that we should try to figure out what kind of team would be built around them (and how). In trying to predict how the front office, even one with EG, might approach this, it seems to me that drafting a young (even if talented) player in 2020 makes the Wall/Beal plan harder to accomplish than acquiring a more developed player. There already are two young pieces (Brown and Hach) who will need to develop quickly to get on a reasonable time frame to build around Wall/Beal. A 2020 selection will be even less developed, but the pick has value that could be turned into a player who might better fit the timeline. DC Zards and/or Illmatic mentioned several possible players, including some who could be part of a package. Anunoby and Bridges were two who I thought have potential in my eyes (at least the rookie version of OG). They would likely need to be in a package - depending on how high the pick is.



This is precisely why Wall can't be a part of this rebuild.
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Re: The Wizards Plan (cracking the Beal Wall Tommy Wizards) 

Post#71 » by Illmatic12 » Mon Aug 19, 2019 3:55 am

SUPERBALLMAN wrote:
Illmatic12 wrote:
SUPERBALLMAN wrote:
This is basically where we were... Wall and Beal, with another guy... Otto. Or Oubre. Or Parker. If that's what we were doing why not just keep one of them? We have to move Wall. I gave a pretty detailed explanation before. Wall and Beal isn't going to work. We need a top tier player, like a top 8 player in the league to contend. Neither Beal or Wall are at that level. You can team Beal with that level of player and contend. You can team Wall with that level player and contend. But not Beal and Wall together. Wall was supposed to be that type of player when we drafted him, but he's not. He's good, he's not that good. And with both guys maxed, one has to go.

Ideally Wall comes back at a reasonably high percentage of what he was and we can deal him to a team that needs a PG in exchange for some package of expirings, so we can go after a big time free agent summer 2021.

It’s not about whether Wall and Beal will contend . Its about using one move to line up the next one.

If we are able to trade for an emerging young player on a reasonable contract (just to throw a random name out there.. let’s say we package our pick for Myles Turner) , it improves the team in the present but also sets us up to move Wall later down the line and bring in a 3rd elite piece who fits the Beal/Turner/Hachimura/etc timeline.

You are falling in the trap of only thinking one step ahead when we should be thinking about the next 2-3 steps. It’s fine if we don’t trade Wall right now , we just need to be in position to pivot quickly once that opportunity becomes available.



Turner makes like 20 mil per year. You can't trade a draft pick for that kind of salary and be able to do anything else. It's why we didn't keep any of Otto, Oubre, Portis, Parker. We have to add talent as we've been doing in the brief Tommy Sheppard era by means of the draft, waived pick ups, and minor low cost trades (hitting singles) so we can make the big move when the opportunity arises. We have to lose salary (Mahinmi, Wall), not add salary (Turner).


If you read my previous post about the plan, I'm thinking about the next 5-6 steps ahead.... Which includes the logical if not mandatory step of trading Wall.

What big move would be prevented by acquiring Turner?

He makes under $20 million, that’s a very movable and valuable contract for a young player with All-Defensive potential. There’s almost no potential move we’d make where his salary would be an inhibition to us.
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Re: The Wizards Plan (cracking the Beal Wall Tommy Wizards) 

Post#72 » by SUPERBALLMAN » Mon Aug 19, 2019 4:00 am

Illmatic12 wrote:
SUPERBALLMAN wrote:
Illmatic12 wrote:It’s not about whether Wall and Beal will contend . Its about using one move to line up the next one.

If we are able to trade for an emerging young player on a reasonable contract (just to throw a random name out there.. let’s say we package our pick for Myles Turner) , it improves the team in the present but also sets us up to move Wall later down the line and bring in a 3rd elite piece who fits the Beal/Turner/Hachimura/etc timeline.

You are falling in the trap of only thinking one step ahead when we should be thinking about the next 2-3 steps. It’s fine if we don’t trade Wall right now , we just need to be in position to pivot quickly once that opportunity becomes available.



Turner makes like 20 mil per year. You can't trade a draft pick for that kind of salary and be able to do anything else. It's why we didn't keep any of Otto, Oubre, Portis, Parker. We have to add talent as we've been doing in the brief Tommy Sheppard era by means of the draft, waived pick ups, and minor low cost trades (hitting singles) so we can make the big move when the opportunity arises. We have to lose salary (Mahinmi, Wall), not add salary (Turner).


If you read my previous post about the plan, I'm thinking about the next 5-6 steps ahead.... Which includes the logical if not mandatory step of trading Wall.

What big move would be prevented by acquiring Turner?




https://heavy.com/sports/2018/10/pacers-myles-turner-contract-extension/

Antetokounmpo. Or any similarly "big" move

We already have Bryant. Turner would be another contract we'd have to "move". He's not as valuable or movable to another team as a top 5 pick. Plus we need that pick to draft Wall's replacement.

.
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Re: The Wizards Plan (cracking the Beal Wall Tommy Wizards) 

Post#73 » by JAR69 » Mon Aug 19, 2019 4:03 am

SUPERBALLMAN wrote:
JAR69 wrote:
DCZards wrote:
Jar81's point that the Zards might need to trade the 2020 lottery pick for a player (ideally a young one) ready to play at a high level is not one that's been discussed here...as far as I can tell. But I wouldn't rule it out. As you say illmatic12, it depends on who's available for the pick. Need to keep your options open.


Just to be clear, I'm not advocating trading the 2020 pick. I'm trying to apply the premise of the thread, which is that the Wizards' plan is to build around Wall/Beal and that we should try to figure out what kind of team would be built around them (and how). In trying to predict how the front office, even one with EG, might approach this, it seems to me that drafting a young (even if talented) player in 2020 makes the Wall/Beal plan harder to accomplish than acquiring a more developed player. There already are two young pieces (Brown and Hach) who will need to develop quickly to get on a reasonable time frame to build around Wall/Beal. A 2020 selection will be even less developed, but the pick has value that could be turned into a player who might better fit the timeline. DC Zards and/or Illmatic mentioned several possible players, including some who could be part of a package. Anunoby and Bridges were two who I thought have potential in my eyes (at least the rookie version of OG). They would likely need to be in a package - depending on how high the pick is.



This is precisely why Wall can't be a part of this rebuild.


I hear you, but the premise of this thread is that he is.
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Re: The Wizards Plan (cracking the Beal Wall Tommy Wizards) 

Post#74 » by DCZards » Mon Aug 19, 2019 4:15 am

SUPERBALLMAN wrote:
2021 Free Agent target PF Giannis Antetokounmpo

He is the logical primary Plan A target. A star top tier player, very marketable "The Greek Freak"!, coming from a smaller market, UFA in his prime and at the right timetable for us 2021, high character, hard worker, high motor, dominant, a perfect tandem with Beal.


Potential 2021 Roster

C - Bryant, Wagner, Ballo
PF- Antetokounmpo, Tillie
SF- Hachimura, TBJ, Admiral, Jones
SG- Beal, Antoine, Bonga
PG- Anthony, Sanon, Robinson


Roster is versatile with Hachimura at PF/SF, Antetokounmpo PF/C, TBJ 1-3, etc. Players such as Jones, Robinson, Admiral, Wagner may or may not be here and may be replaced with other young players or low cost free agents or acquisitions, but I list them because I see them as having the Potential skill to possibly stick here , and to show a full Potential 15 man roster.


I think we all would love to add Giannis or another top 10 player to the roster with free agent monies freed up by trading Wall. However, the biggest flaw with your plan is that, if the Zards are unable to land even a top 20-25 player in 2021 via free agency, that ends up being a young, somewhat mediocre roster that you've put together.

I'd expect Beal to want out at that point.

Not saying it can't happen, but I think your plan is too dependent on landing Giannis or a player of similar ability.
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Re: The Wizards Plan (cracking the Beal Wall Tommy Wizards) 

Post#75 » by SUPERBALLMAN » Mon Aug 19, 2019 4:34 am

DCZards wrote:
SUPERBALLMAN wrote:
2021 Free Agent target PF Giannis Antetokounmpo

He is the logical primary Plan A target. A star top tier player, very marketable "The Greek Freak"!, coming from a smaller market, UFA in his prime and at the right timetable for us 2021, high character, hard worker, high motor, dominant, a perfect tandem with Beal.


Potential 2021 Roster

C - Bryant, Wagner, Ballo
PF- Antetokounmpo, Tillie
SF- Hachimura, TBJ, Admiral, Jones
SG- Beal, Antoine, Bonga
PG- Anthony, Sanon, Robinson


Roster is versatile with Hachimura at PF/SF, Antetokounmpo PF/C, TBJ 1-3, etc. Players such as Jones, Robinson, Admiral, Wagner may or may not be here and may be replaced with other young players or low cost free agents or acquisitions, but I list them because I see them as having the Potential skill to possibly stick here , and to show a full Potential 15 man roster.


I think we all would love to add Giannis or another top 10 player to the roster with free agent monies freed up by trading Wall. However, the biggest flaw with your plan is that, if the Zards are unable to land even a top 20-25 player in 2021 via free agency, that ends up being a young, somewhat mediocre roster that you've put together.

I'd expect Beal to want out at that point.

Not saying it can't happen, but I think your plan is too dependent on landing Giannis or a player of similar ability.



It's definitely a risk, but the alternative is doing what we've been doing which is going nowhere. It seems obvious the whole reason for all these organizational changes are to put us in a position to attract that type of player. Otherwise we might as well have just kept Ernie.
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Re: The Wizards Plan (cracking the Beal Wall Tommy Wizards) 

Post#76 » by Illmatic12 » Mon Aug 19, 2019 4:38 am

SUPERBALLMAN wrote:
Illmatic12 wrote:
SUPERBALLMAN wrote:

Turner makes like 20 mil per year. You can't trade a draft pick for that kind of salary and be able to do anything else. It's why we didn't keep any of Otto, Oubre, Portis, Parker. We have to add talent as we've been doing in the brief Tommy Sheppard era by means of the draft, waived pick ups, and minor low cost trades (hitting singles) so we can make the big move when the opportunity arises. We have to lose salary (Mahinmi, Wall), not add salary (Turner).


If you read my previous post about the plan, I'm thinking about the next 5-6 steps ahead.... Which includes the logical if not mandatory step of trading Wall.

What big move would be prevented by acquiring Turner?




https://heavy.com/sports/2018/10/pacers-myles-turner-contract-extension/

Antetokounmpo. Or any similarly "big" move

We already have Bryant. Turner would be another contract we'd have to "move". He's not as valuable or movable to another team as a top 5 pick. Plus we need that pick to draft Wall's replacement.

.

You’ve paid attention to the leaguewide moves that happened this offseason yes?

Miami had zero cap space this summer and they were still able to acquire a max FA. We are seeing now that creating cap room on short notice is not really an obstacle. If Wash were on the verge of signing an FA of Giannis caliber I have no doubt they would be able to clear capspace within 24-48 hrs.

There is also the option of sign-and-trades. We need to acquire talented young players on good contracts (like Myles Turner), everything else can be figured out later.
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Re: The Wizards Plan (cracking the Beal Wall Tommy Wizards) 

Post#77 » by dangermouse » Mon Aug 19, 2019 4:39 am

payitforward wrote:I just had a funny thought. You'll notice from that article that one of the people whom Ted asked for input was Barack.

It couldn't be that one of our registered participants here is an ex ... nah.

Then again if he were, you'd expect really informed posts, right? So... you don't think maybe one of our more thoughtful posters, like maybe nate...? nah, no way... right?

Though, you know, as I start to think about it... I mean, presenting yourself as on the right politically, I mean what better way to obscure your real identity? ... nah... come on! It just can't be!!

Still... What about it, nate?

:)


CCJ lives in Hawaii, which is BOs state of birth, and is a very informed contributor :nod:
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long suffrin' boulez fan wrote:
NatP4 wrote:but why would the pacers want Mahinmi's contract


Well, in fairness, we took Mike Pence off their hands. Taking back Mahinmi is the least they can do.
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Re: The Wizards Plan (cracking the Beal Wall Tommy Wizards) 

Post#78 » by doclinkin » Mon Aug 19, 2019 12:22 pm

TunaFish wrote:I am surprised that the hiring of Sashi Brown has not been commented on here. Isn't he an analytics guy who oversaw the complete tear down of the Browns?

Wouldn't this signal that the Wizards may be headed for reconstruction or am I reading too much into this move?


Sashi Brown was brought in as the head of “Systems Operations”. So far nobody seems to know what that is. Including everyone on stage at the press conference announcing the front office hires.

He is overseeing the support and improvement and technology and smooth running of everything related to Monumental Sports and Entertainment. Including their eSports team, WNBA squad, G League team, NBA and who knows what. Facilities and outreach. Everything except the medical staff and the direct oversight of any sports operations.

But all major basketball decisions will be run before the Board including, chiefly, Ted Leonsis, but also seemingly including Brown, apple computers billionaire Laurene Powell Jobs, and vice governor co owner Raul Fernandez and everyone down to the guy who sweeps up after the elephants when the circus leaves town.
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Re: The Wizards Plan (cracking the Beal Wall Tommy Wizards) 

Post#79 » by nate33 » Mon Aug 19, 2019 1:18 pm

DCZards wrote:
SUPERBALLMAN wrote:
2021 Free Agent target PF Giannis Antetokounmpo

He is the logical primary Plan A target. A star top tier player, very marketable "The Greek Freak"!, coming from a smaller market, UFA in his prime and at the right timetable for us 2021, high character, hard worker, high motor, dominant, a perfect tandem with Beal.


Potential 2021 Roster

C - Bryant, Wagner, Ballo
PF- Antetokounmpo, Tillie
SF- Hachimura, TBJ, Admiral, Jones
SG- Beal, Antoine, Bonga
PG- Anthony, Sanon, Robinson


Roster is versatile with Hachimura at PF/SF, Antetokounmpo PF/C, TBJ 1-3, etc. Players such as Jones, Robinson, Admiral, Wagner may or may not be here and may be replaced with other young players or low cost free agents or acquisitions, but I list them because I see them as having the Potential skill to possibly stick here , and to show a full Potential 15 man roster.


I think we all would love to add Giannis or another top 10 player to the roster with free agent monies freed up by trading Wall. However, the biggest flaw with your plan is that, if the Zards are unable to land even a top 20-25 player in 2021 via free agency, that ends up being a young, somewhat mediocre roster that you've put together.

I'd expect Beal to want out at that point.

Not saying it can't happen, but I think your plan is too dependent on landing Giannis or a player of similar ability.

I wouldn't go all in on a "cap room in 2021 plan" unless Beal first signed an extension. It would only have to be a 1+1 extension which keeps him until 2022 at the earliest.
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Re: The Wizards Plan (cracking the Beal Wall Tommy Wizards) 

Post#80 » by nate33 » Mon Aug 19, 2019 1:24 pm

Illmatic12 wrote:
SUPERBALLMAN wrote:
Illmatic12 wrote:What big move would be prevented by acquiring Turner?




https://heavy.com/sports/2018/10/pacers-myles-turner-contract-extension/

Antetokounmpo. Or any similarly "big" move

We already have Bryant. Turner would be another contract we'd have to "move". He's not as valuable or movable to another team as a top 5 pick. Plus we need that pick to draft Wall's replacement.

.

You’ve paid attention to the leaguewide moves that happened this offseason yes?

Miami had zero cap space this summer and they were still able to acquire a max FA. We are seeing now that creating cap room on short notice is not really an obstacle. If Wash were on the verge of signing an FA of Giannis caliber I have no doubt they would be able to clear capspace within 24-48 hrs.

There is also the option of sign-and-trades. We need to acquire talented young players on good contracts (like Myles Turner), everything else can be figured out later.

It's not that easy when you have Wall on a supermax and Beal on a max. If we are assuming both of those guys are to be kept, and we are also assuming we traded for a Miles Turner tier guy, there is simply no way to acquire a superstar to join them.

Ultimately, I agree with JAR69 on this point. It doesn't make sense to build around Hachimura, Brown, Bryant and our 2020 lotto pick while also keeping Wall.

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