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Political Roundtable Part XXVIII

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Political Roundtable Part XXVIII 

Post#1 » by montestewart » Fri Mar 6, 2020 1:12 pm

Continued from here.

Carry on.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVIII 

Post#2 » by montestewart » Fri Mar 6, 2020 1:50 pm

Zonkerbl wrote:Well, the problem with the "stand up to the bully" strategy is Trump can always punch back harder because his followers put no limits on how despicable his behavior can be. Ideally you play a game of tit for tat with Trump - he subpoenas Hunter, you subpoena Trump Jr. and just keep going down that hellhole until one of you blinks. Problem is Trump will not stop at ordering his followers to assassinate you. What do you do after he does that?

Other strategy is to just blow it off as the ravings of an insane lunatic.

Reporter: Trump said he's hired an assassination squad to take out Hunter, what's your response?
Biden: Meh I don't care what that idiot does or says. I'm focused on kicking his a$$ in November.

I don't know if Biden could do it, but that would be an excellent approach.

Don't respond directly to extreme allegations from Trump and proxies, with an "I'm talking with people who want to save this country from insanity" approach perhaps.

If reporters say, "Trump says {whatever]," respond with, "I have no idea what that man is talking about, do you?" or "Come on, now, let's stop pretending that guy makes a bit of sense, can we?"

The approach to live debating Trump should have little to do with policy or issues, because there is only one issue. Frame the malinformed and toxic unintelligibility as it should be. "Was that a sentence?" "They have medicine for that." "Seriously, how did he get in here."

Some will be a little nervous with this approach, as Trumpists disingenuously attempt to color it as disrespectful to the presidency, the political process, the country, children, gun rights, etc. But you are not talking to the people that eat that **** up. And you are not talking to the people who will obviously vote for whichever candidate the Democrats put forth. You are talking to centrists, never Trumpers, Trumpers who are close to an epiphany, uneasy moderate Democrats (if Sanders wins) or embittered Bernie fans (if Biden wins), people who rarely vote. You are talking to any vote that is potentially in play.

The issue this election should be Trump, nothing but Trump, his tweets, his interviews, his history. The evidence is all there. Do you want four more years of someone who has to use his fingers to count to four?
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVIII 

Post#3 » by gtn130 » Fri Mar 6, 2020 1:58 pm

montestewart wrote:I don't know if Biden could do it, but that would be an excellent approach.

Don't respond directly to extreme allegations from Trump and proxies, with an "I'm talking with people who want to save this country from insanity" approach perhaps.


Man, I don't know what level you guys are on, but this sounds like complete insanity to me. This is literally, I repeat, literally, what Hillary Clinton did in 2016. It did not work!

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Ignoring Trump's insane attacks just lets him control the narrative. It's wild how people learned nothing from 2016. We are so ****ed.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVIII 

Post#4 » by Chaos Revenant » Fri Mar 6, 2020 2:09 pm

Re: Warren. Warren was and is fundamentally a bad candidate. Unlike Kamala Harris, who sort of ran a bad campaign, Elizabeth Warren is a bad candidate, and has always been a bad candidate. She had zero connections to Black voters anywhere. She *routinely* underperformed the top of the ticket in her home state, even as an incumbent! Her own state never liked her as much as the top of the ticket. She was a one note candidate who leveraged anger at the banks, until she got young activists to write most of the platform, which is exciting to young activists on twitter and nobody else. She also has a history of attacks and clapbacks on Hillary and Obama. And she tried to win Bernie Sanders voters without being Bernie Sanders (side note: Bernie Sanders as a phenomenon is not about policy, it is a Stalinist cult of personality) which to be fair a lot of dumbasses did.

White progressives need to take a HARD look at themselves given that this is the absolute best they can do.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVIII 

Post#5 » by gtn130 » Fri Mar 6, 2020 2:21 pm

Chaos Revenant wrote:Bernie Sanders as a phenomenon is not about policy, it is a Stalinist cult of personality


This is just nonsense. Bernie has by far the most explicit policy positions, while every other former Dem candidate in the field except Warren and Yang is running on personality and vague bull****.

It's incredible how people simply cannot handle the mean tweets. All of the Bernie/BernieBro smears from liberals literally just boil down to snowflakes who can't handle anyone being mean to them online.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVIII 

Post#6 » by gtn130 » Fri Mar 6, 2020 2:28 pm

Like what is the logical conclusion of a Beto or Booker or Harris campaign? It's all cult of personality unless you're running on actual policy.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVIII 

Post#7 » by dckingsfan » Fri Mar 6, 2020 2:35 pm

gtn130 wrote:Like what is the logical conclusion of a Beto or Booker or Harris campaign? It's all cult of personality unless you're running on actual policy.

I believe your analysis is correct, but I will expand it to the candidate and his followers (kind of the TGW bounce if you will).

But if we dig a bit deeper, we find certain groups of white voters were more likely to land on a candidate in the final days. For instance, 37 percent of white women were late deciders, more than any other group broken down by race and gender. As a whole, they made up 43 percent of late deciders, and 50 percent of them backed Biden. Though this was in line with the overall support for Biden among late deciders, the sheer number of white women (the single largest voting bloc on Super Tuesday) made it a key late-deciding group for Biden.


https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/what-we-know-about-the-voters-who-swung-super-tuesday-for-biden/

I guess things changed when the polls for Iowa, the state that most accurately reflects America as a whole (/S), weren’t looking great for folks. Now it’s all gone to hell and all the candidates are starting to throw dirt and trash talk each other. This means that the candidates are following their supporters lead and behaving like spoiled children. None so more than Bernie Sanders fans.

Look, I’m gonna be blunt. I don’t like Sanders and think the most vocal of his fans are absolute trash. I know I implied in the opening paragraph that I didn’t care much for the divisive trash talking, but there is a difference between being competitive in an election and being outright hostile and threatening. Since Bernie Sanders showed up on the national scene, I have seen people get doxxed by supporters, sexually harassed, called “traitors” to their sexual and racial minority by straight white men, and his supporters mirror Trump’s most vitriolic supporters under the guise of “progress.” Yes, I said it. I stand by it, and I will die on this hill.


https://www.advocate.com/commentary/2020/1/23/bernie-sanderss-most-fervent-supporters-are-not-helping
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVIII 

Post#8 » by daSwami » Fri Mar 6, 2020 2:36 pm

Chaos Revenant wrote:RBernie Sanders as a phenomenon is not about policy, it is a Stalinist cult of personality


Whoa now. I think the "toxic Bernie Bro" is largely created and amplified by the media. I spend entirely too much time on Twitter and I see vitriol from all sides. None of the candidates have control over thousands of anonymous people on the internet. And Bernie's official campaign and surrogates, in my opinion, have led the most positive campaign in the race. I think Bernie supporters may seem not open to other ideas because they can be unyielding in their convictions. This resonates with me because I think everyone has a right to healthcare, a healthy planet, economic prosperity, etc. and that arouses passion - which is not necessarily a net-negative when trying to build a political movement and grass-roots activity.

The entire government works for the corporations right now. If nothing else, Bernie can block attempts to get the people in more trouble, prevent foreign wars, veto more crazy tax cuts, bailouts, etc. If he pushes for Medicare for All, and democratic members of congress don't support, he can go to their states and destroy them politically as leader of the party. That's the stick, the threat, so he would exert considerable force over his party, just like Trump has with Republicans, who didn't want him in charge of their party.

As to Dems/independents, most polls I've seen show that around 73% of Dems would support Bernie in the general. I've also seen him leading considerably among independents which is something to keep in mind during a primary among only Dems. Bernie consistently polls as the most favorable and trustworthy candidate nationally. And a fact that is not repeated enough is that Bernie won a house seat that was republican for 30 years and a senate seat that was republican for 100 years. He, when given the opportunity to express his agenda, can cut through the noise of red-scare noise. The problem right now is that even the liberal media is working against him. In the general election, I would hope the liberal media would be forced to stop outright smearing him and then we could see people becoming more informed.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVIII 

Post#9 » by dckingsfan » Fri Mar 6, 2020 2:39 pm

Chaos Revenant wrote:...White progressives need to take a HARD look at themselves given that this is the absolute best they can do.

I really think they need their own party. This would be very difficult to achieve but it needs to happen (IMO, for the good of the country). They need to be unchained with their ideas constantly in the forefront and not locked on the back burner.

If they started their party now, the would have Bernie and the gang as immediate members. If they voted with the Ds in this next election cycle (and actually tried to build coalitions) it would bode well for them long-term.

That would give us roughly equal splits of Rs, Ds, Ps and Is, IMO.

But this is a pipe dream....
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVIII 

Post#10 » by Wizardspride » Fri Mar 6, 2020 2:41 pm

gtn130 wrote:
Chaos Revenant wrote:Bernie Sanders as a phenomenon is not about policy, it is a Stalinist cult of personality


This is just nonsense. Bernie has by far the most explicit policy positions, while every other former Dem candidate in the field except Warren and Yang is running on personality and vague bull****.

It's incredible how people simply cannot handle the mean tweets. All of the Bernie/BernieBro smears from liberals literally just boil down to snowflakes who can't handle anyone being mean to them online.

You know normally I agree with you but you're wrong on this one:

The Bernie Bros are no different than the Deplorables.

They're a cult.

Its not just about having policy disagreements;

If you don't bend the knee to Bernie you're trash.

"You're a Hillary Ho"

"Older black voters are decrepit"

Those are TGW's words but its representative of the Bernie Bros mindset.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVIII 

Post#11 » by dckingsfan » Fri Mar 6, 2020 2:44 pm

daSwami wrote:
Chaos Revenant wrote:Bernie Sanders as a phenomenon is not about policy, it is a Stalinist cult of personality

Whoa now. I think the "toxic Bernie Bro" is largely created and amplified by the media.

With complete respect... did you ever go to one of Bernie's events? Especially in the last cycle? Toxic would have been a perfect word to describe many of them. Bernie waited a looooooong time until he finally brought the hammer down on those that were attacking Warren - like, after she decided to drop out.

Where there are huge billowing clouds of smoke, there is probably a nice raging fire below.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVIII 

Post#12 » by gtn130 » Fri Mar 6, 2020 2:48 pm

dckingsfan wrote:
gtn130 wrote:Like what is the logical conclusion of a Beto or Booker or Harris campaign? It's all cult of personality unless you're running on actual policy.

I believe your analysis is correct, but I will expand it to the candidate and his followers (kind of the TGW bounce if you will).

But if we dig a bit deeper, we find certain groups of white voters were more likely to land on a candidate in the final days. For instance, 37 percent of white women were late deciders, more than any other group broken down by race and gender. As a whole, they made up 43 percent of late deciders, and 50 percent of them backed Biden. Though this was in line with the overall support for Biden among late deciders, the sheer number of white women (the single largest voting bloc on Super Tuesday) made it a key late-deciding group for Biden.


https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/what-we-know-about-the-voters-who-swung-super-tuesday-for-biden/

I guess things changed when the polls for Iowa, the state that most accurately reflects America as a whole (/S), weren’t looking great for folks. Now it’s all gone to hell and all the candidates are starting to throw dirt and trash talk each other. This means that the candidates are following their supporters lead and behaving like spoiled children. None so more than Bernie Sanders fans.

Look, I’m gonna be blunt. I don’t like Sanders and think the most vocal of his fans are absolute trash. I know I implied in the opening paragraph that I didn’t care much for the divisive trash talking, but there is a difference between being competitive in an election and being outright hostile and threatening. Since Bernie Sanders showed up on the national scene, I have seen people get doxxed by supporters, sexually harassed, called “traitors” to their sexual and racial minority by straight white men, and his supporters mirror Trump’s most vitriolic supporters under the guise of “progress.” Yes, I said it. I stand by it, and I will die on this hill.


https://www.advocate.com/commentary/2020/1/23/bernie-sanderss-most-fervent-supporters-are-not-helping


I don't think I understand your first point - are you saying candidates who acquire more undecided voters are less of a cult of personality? Bernie's supporters are definitely more politically engaged and have already made up their minds. I don't think that indicates Bernie's running a Stalinist cult of personality campaign.

I also agree Bernie supporters are often obnoxious and yell at people online. I think the way liberals and moderates react to mean Bernie Bros says way more about them than it does about Bernie Bros. People should get a grip and take a long look in the mirror when their personal politics are being dictated by who was the most nice to them online.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVIII 

Post#13 » by gtn130 » Fri Mar 6, 2020 2:53 pm

Wizardspride wrote:
gtn130 wrote:
Chaos Revenant wrote:Bernie Sanders as a phenomenon is not about policy, it is a Stalinist cult of personality


This is just nonsense. Bernie has by far the most explicit policy positions, while every other former Dem candidate in the field except Warren and Yang is running on personality and vague bull****.

It's incredible how people simply cannot handle the mean tweets. All of the Bernie/BernieBro smears from liberals literally just boil down to snowflakes who can't handle anyone being mean to them online.

You know normally I agree with you but you're wrong on this one:

The Bernie Bros are no different than the Deplorables.

They're a cult.

Its not just about having policy disagreements;

If you don't bend the knee to Bernie you're trash.

"You're a Hillary Ho"

"Older black voters are decrepit"

Those are TGW's words but its representative of the Bernie Bros mindset.


I think it's possible to find a small segment of Bernie Bros who are irrational and extreme, but I don't agree with how all Bernie supporters are being characterized. Bernie has already gotten almost four million votes this primary, so I think it's pretty unfair to say that TGW is representative of all Bernie supporters. I also think it's unfair to connect Bernie's most extreme supporters to him directly. This isn't a standard applied to any other candidate.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVIII 

Post#14 » by Kanyewest » Fri Mar 6, 2020 3:10 pm

I think we are moving in a weird place where you judge a campaign on how toxic one's supporters are on Twitter/online. I will just say as someone who is on Twitter, a huge percentage of Twitter is toxic. Especially following sports media where you have share of crazy fans (Lakers, Knicks, Cowboys) , haters of certain players (LeBron, Harden, Durant) or sports personalities (Bill Simmons). And often times you are rewarded for bad behavior (Gilbert Arenas) with more interactions and more followers.

I think I've observed toxic behavior from most candidates including supporters of Yang, Warren, and of course Trump supporters online alongside Bernie supporters. And I feel I haven't seen any toxicity among the Bernie supporters I know through Facebook so I consider myself lucky where you also are less likely to find Russian bots and blank profiles.

One way to avoid being called toxic is to bring your support among young people to 10 percent.

It's also getting expressivly weird to call Bernie supporters Bernie bros. More than half of Bernie supporters are women, and increasingly diverse with the inclusion of Hispanics and Asian Americans preferring Bernie over most candidates.

But we have seen us Wizard fans hating one team a lot more at times due to toxic behavior (Bulls, Raptors, Celtics, etc) so it makes sense why this has translated over to hate to Bernie.

I wish we would judge presidential candidates not by their worst supporters though.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVIII 

Post#15 » by dckingsfan » Fri Mar 6, 2020 3:25 pm

gtn130 wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:
gtn130 wrote:Like what is the logical conclusion of a Beto or Booker or Harris campaign? It's all cult of personality unless you're running on actual policy.

I believe your analysis is correct, but I will expand it to the candidate and his followers (kind of the TGW bounce if you will).

But if we dig a bit deeper, we find certain groups of white voters were more likely to land on a candidate in the final days. For instance, 37 percent of white women were late deciders, more than any other group broken down by race and gender. As a whole, they made up 43 percent of late deciders, and 50 percent of them backed Biden. Though this was in line with the overall support for Biden among late deciders, the sheer number of white women (the single largest voting bloc on Super Tuesday) made it a key late-deciding group for Biden.


https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/what-we-know-about-the-voters-who-swung-super-tuesday-for-biden/

I guess things changed when the polls for Iowa, the state that most accurately reflects America as a whole (/S), weren’t looking great for folks. Now it’s all gone to hell and all the candidates are starting to throw dirt and trash talk each other. This means that the candidates are following their supporters lead and behaving like spoiled children. None so more than Bernie Sanders fans.

Look, I’m gonna be blunt. I don’t like Sanders and think the most vocal of his fans are absolute trash. I know I implied in the opening paragraph that I didn’t care much for the divisive trash talking, but there is a difference between being competitive in an election and being outright hostile and threatening. Since Bernie Sanders showed up on the national scene, I have seen people get doxxed by supporters, sexually harassed, called “traitors” to their sexual and racial minority by straight white men, and his supporters mirror Trump’s most vitriolic supporters under the guise of “progress.” Yes, I said it. I stand by it, and I will die on this hill.


https://www.advocate.com/commentary/2020/1/23/bernie-sanderss-most-fervent-supporters-are-not-helping

I don't think I understand your first point - are you saying candidates who acquire more undecided voters are less of a cult of personality? Bernie's supporters are definitely more politically engaged and have already made up their minds. I don't think that indicates Bernie's running a Stalinist cult of personality campaign.

I also agree Bernie supporters are often obnoxious and yell at people online. I think the way liberals and moderates react to mean Bernie Bros says way more about them than it does about Bernie Bros. People should get a grip and take a long look in the mirror when their personal politics are being dictated by who was the most nice to them online.

What I am getting at is that Bernie should have pivoted earlier on some of his followers misbehaving. He did so with respect to Bernie supporters attacking Warren - but only after she dropped out.

He should have worked in something with respect to working with the current Ds and coming down on other progressives that want to "primary" current moderates.

He should have acknowledged things "like" charter schools and what they have done for some of the black population.

In the end, he lost the white women and black voters. And I don't think he saw that coming.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVIII 

Post#16 » by daSwami » Fri Mar 6, 2020 4:13 pm

dckingsfan wrote:
daSwami wrote:
Chaos Revenant wrote:Bernie Sanders as a phenomenon is not about policy, it is a Stalinist cult of personality

Whoa now. I think the "toxic Bernie Bro" is largely created and amplified by the media.

With complete respect... did you ever go to one of Bernie's events? Especially in the last cycle? Toxic would have been a perfect word to describe many of them. Bernie waited a looooooong time until he finally brought the hammer down on those that were attacking Warren - like, after she decided to drop out.


I have been to several local Bernie rallies, both this year and in 2016, and my impression differs from yours considerably. I'll leave it at that.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVIII 

Post#17 » by daSwami » Fri Mar 6, 2020 4:19 pm

dckingsfan wrote:
Chaos Revenant wrote:...White progressives need to take a HARD look at themselves given that this is the absolute best they can do.

I really think they need their own party. This would be very difficult to achieve but it needs to happen (IMO, for the good of the country). They need to be unchained with their ideas constantly in the forefront and not locked on the back burner.

If they started their party now, the would have Bernie and the gang as immediate members. If they voted with the Ds in this next election cycle (and actually tried to build coalitions) it would bode well for them long-term.

That would give us roughly equal splits of Rs, Ds, Ps and Is, IMO.

But this is a pipe dream....


I don't think it's a pipe dream, I think it's an inevitability. Since Citizens United, both parties have become utterly corrupted by corporate influence, which is antithetical to Democracy.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVIII 

Post#18 » by dckingsfan » Fri Mar 6, 2020 4:19 pm

daSwami wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:
daSwami wrote:Whoa now. I think the "toxic Bernie Bro" is largely created and amplified by the media.

With complete respect... did you ever go to one of Bernie's events? Especially in the last cycle? Toxic would have been a perfect word to describe many of them. Bernie waited a looooooong time until he finally brought the hammer down on those that were attacking Warren - like, after she decided to drop out.

I have been to several local Bernie rallies, both this year and in 2016, and my impression differs from yours considerably. I'll leave it at that.

One of the ones that I was at in 2016, they were chanting "lock her up"... but that is anecdotal and doesn't reflect all his events.

But... it is the perception. And part of what turned off women.

Bernie had the better platform but not the better strategy, IMO.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVIII 

Post#19 » by daSwami » Fri Mar 6, 2020 4:26 pm

I agree with Joe on this.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVIII 

Post#20 » by dckingsfan » Fri Mar 6, 2020 4:29 pm

daSwami wrote:I agree with Joe on this.

Me too… but sadly, politics is more than just having the right message. Something that Bernie didn't learn or didn't want to learn.

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