Political Roundtable Part XXVIII

[Kanyewest]

He said he stuck it out for the elimination of super delegates in the primary process which they compromised and withheld at least until the primary process is over. It remains to be seen what he has to gain from a big loss this time in swing states like Michigan and Wisconsin.

I'd be absolutely shocked if Bernie doesn't drag this out a fair bit longer and then throw some stones at various institutions in defeat

Bernie doesn't actually have anything to gain other than trying to massage his ego. I'm not particularly excited at the idea of a Biden nomination myself but Bernie has in part been instrumental in how a lot of this has played out and seems blithely unaware of the consequences of his actions. There are ways he could have actually made a much bigger difference over his decades in politics. Not that he didn't make a big difference, because he did, but he's currently surrounded by loads of people with less name recognition who have made bigger differences and it really shows. The difference in modus operandi is jarring.

People are starting to notice that he has a rep for not compromising and not getting things done.

Well Bernie did change the convention rules last time around. The DNC meddling allowed Sanders more leeway last time.

Also, Biden may concede a few things to Bernie this time around, maybe a vp or cabinet position that is more favorable than Hillary Clinton's selection of Tim Kaine.

[I_Like_Dirt]

Also, Biden may concede a few things to Bernie this time around, maybe a vp or cabinet position that is more favorable than Hillary Clinton's selection of Tim Kaine.

Biden isn't conceding those things to Bernie. And frankly, even if he did, I'm not at all convinced Bernie would accept them. The way to handle that kind of thing is to have a bunch of politicians you've worked with that have like minds that you can promote for such positions to spread your ideas, because at its root politics is about ideas. Bernie doesn't really have that kind of network; he has some politicians who admire him but not exactly a long list of people he's developed a long-standing working relationship with. Bernie doesn't do that so it isn't really an option, either. If you take a bit of a closer look at his actions, he clearly seems to prioritize his own ego ahead of his values. He believes in both, but he absolutely needs it to be himself that leads the charge. It's not wrong of him to want that; it's just worth noting when it comes down to being able to actually trust someone to lead the charge on values you claim to share because those two things won't always line up and we know which way Bernie runs already.

[Kanyewest]

Also the big thing last time was also that California came in the very late stages of the primary last time around. And of course, Trump is president this time so there is more pressure to unify.

I am saying if Sanders loses Michigan big by a big margin (something like 20 points which what some polls are suggesting, and I think Sanders should outperform those polls), then he is really running out of runway. Sanders more likely than not has to win Michigan and some of the Northeastern states by a big margin to even get more delegates than Biden.

That being said, I'm not sure if Biden will win by a huge margin in Michigan.

And you guys could be right, maybe Sanders holds on to the bitter end like last time. But I was right in comparing Elizabeth Warren to a 3rd party spoiler on Super Tuesday!

Also did Biden support Medicare for all in 2007? I am seeing this clip online a lot but there also isn't written evidence of his health care positions that I could find online. I only bring it up because maybe he would be willing to compromise on that.

Read on Twitter

[dckingsfan]

Did I double post old guys...

where is PIF when you need him.

[dckingsfan]

Also the big thing last time was also that California came in the very late stages of the primary last time around. And of course, Trump is president this time so there is more pressure to unify.

I am saying if Sanders loses Michigan big by a big margin (something like 20 points which what some polls are suggesting, and I think Sanders should outperform those polls), then he is really running out of runway. Sanders more likely than not has to win Michigan and some of the Northeastern states by a big margin to even get more delegates than Biden.

That being said, I'm not sure if Biden will win by a huge margin in Michigan.

And you guys could be right, maybe Sanders holds on to the bitter end like last time. But I was right in comparing Elizabeth Warren to a 3rd party spoiler on Super Tuesday!

Also did Biden support Medicare for all in 2007? I am seeing this clip online a lot but there also isn't written evidence of his health care positions that I could find online. I only bring it up because maybe he would be willing to compromise on that.

Read on Twitter

Biden, April 18, 2018:

Look what’s happened with the latest tax cut. Once again those at the very top get the biggest breaks and what do we have to show for it? Even our Republican friends are now beginning to admit there’s no evidence these tax cuts are being put to work in the economy. No new growth, just more debt.

And that puts middle class programs that they rely on and they’ve worked for at real risk.

Paul Ryan was correct when he did the tax code. What’s the first thing he decided we had to go after? Social Security and Medicare. Now, we need to do something about Social Security and Medicare. That’s the only way you can find room to pay for it.

Now, I don’t know a whole lot of people in the top one-tenth of 1% or the top 1% who are relying on Social Security when they retire. I don’t know a lot of them. Maybe you guys do. So we need a pro-growth, progressive tax code that treats workers as job creators, as well, not just investors, that gets rid of unprotective loopholes like stepped-up basis; and it raises enough revenue to make sure that the Social Security and Medicare can stay, it still needs adjustments, but can stay; and pay for the things we all acknowledge will grow the country.

https://www.factcheck.org/2020/01/biden-vs-sanders-on-social-security-and-medicare/

[gtn130]

People are starting to notice that he has a rep for not compromising and not getting things done.

He's a Senator. What should he have gotten done with Mitch McConnell?

[gtn130]

People are starting to notice that he has a rep for not compromising and not getting things done.

The disconnect between Bernie's message and his inability to understand how minorities or less represented people might not necessarily trust me honestly amuses me a bit. To use African Americans, for example, collectively they've been telling him for a while now that they want certain things. Bernie's response has been to tell them that they don't really want that and that they want what he's telling them they want, they just don't know it yet. And rather than listening to them and trying to come to an understanding, he keeps on keepin' on.

Suddenly, he finds out that there are institutions in place, like superdelegates, that might actually be a rare case of helping African Americans get what they want rather than the reverse, and he holds out when he knows he's lost and takes shots at those institutions, again, claiming (and probably intending) no ill-will but telling them he's really doing what's best for African Americans. Then he makes off-hand comments about his campaign being built on the working class in order to imply that losing a state largely to African American votes wasn't a big deal. These voters aren't stupid. They can read between the lines even if Bernie continues insisting there isn't anything between the lines. And then he seemingly is surprised that they don't trust the old, yelling white man who tells them they want what he wants not what they want and doesn't listen to them. Tone-deaf doesn't even begin to describe it. But hey, it's clearly the voters who are far too easily hurt to get behind Bernie's attempts to save their own lives. That's not at all illogical and insulting at the same time. It's a mystery why they won't support him.

All the stuff you've invented here does sound pretty bad

[gtn130]

The Bernie posting ITT by folks like I_Like_Dirt is legit horrendous. Bernie has done more for progressive causes than basically anyone. Pete Buttigieg ran on a platform that is WAY left of Obama. Wonder why the Overton Window is moving?

[I_Like_Dirt]

All the stuff you've invented here does sound pretty bad

Plug your ears all you want. It doesn't actually sound bad to me, btw. It sounds like somebody who is well intentioned but isn't very good at working with others to get results in the messy world of politics and who also isn't very good with the details and often wants to just shout over them.

But now you're suggesting everything I wrote there I invented? I have to assume you mean the part where the voters are reasonable people who can read between the lines? See, this is the kind of thing that causes Bernie trouble, too, whether you want to admit it or not.

And if you didn't intend to suggest that everything was made up, which parts do you think were made up, exactly? They might be demonstrated in an angle you don't like, or even a misleading angle, but Bernie still hasn't learned. And yet we talk about Biden's "gaffs." With Bernie, they aren't gaffs because he doesn't back down and makes like he means it.

https://www.politicususa.com/2020/03/02/sanders-throws-south-carolina-voters-under-the-bus-by-claiming-they-arent-working-class.html

[DCZards]

People are starting to notice that he has a rep for not compromising and not getting things done.

The disconnect between Bernie's message and his inability to understand how minorities or less represented people might not necessarily trust me honestly amuses me a bit. To use African Americans, for example, collectively they've been telling him for a while now that they want certain things. Bernie's response has been to tell them that they don't really want that and that they want what he's telling them they want, they just don't know it yet. And rather than listening to them and trying to come to an understanding, he keeps on keepin' on.

Suddenly, he finds out that there are institutions in place, like superdelegates, that might actually be a rare case of helping African Americans get what they want rather than the reverse, and he holds out when he knows he's lost and takes shots at those institutions, again, claiming (and probably intending) no ill-will but telling them he's really doing what's best for African Americans. Then he makes off-hand comments about his campaign being built on the working class in order to imply that losing a state largely to African American votes wasn't a big deal. These voters aren't stupid. They can read between the lines even if Bernie continues insisting there isn't anything between the lines. And then he seemingly is surprised that they don't trust the old, yelling white man who tells them they want what he wants not what they want and doesn't listen to them. Tone-deaf doesn't even begin to describe it. But hey, it's clearly the voters who are far too easily hurt to get behind Bernie's attempts to save their own lives. That's not at all illogical and insulting at the same time. It's a mystery why they won't support him.

I might have said it a little differently but you are absolutely correct. Bernie is tone deaf (and obstinate) when it comes to appealing to African American voters...or anyone else outside of his current base of support.

It didn’t help when after Biden won SC some Sanders supporters labeled the mostly black voters there “low information voters.”

[I_Like_Dirt]

The Bernie posting ITT by folks like I_Like_Dirt is legit horrendous. Bernie has done more for progressive causes than basically anyone. Pete Buttigieg ran on a platform that is WAY left of Obama. Wonder why the Overton Window is moving?

What exactly has Bernie done? Bernie hasn't been a major player in a fair few of the attempts at progressive legislation and governance, really.

And I'd suggest that crediting Bernie for moving voters in any particular direction is giving credit where it simply isn't due. Bernie has been shouting the same things for literally decades now. He's the equivalent of a man who keeps shouting at the sky that it should rain until he's finally an old man and it starts raining and you're going to give him credit for it. I mean, you can't prove for sure that it isn't him, but it isn't him. Bernie doesn't get to take credit for younger generations rolling in progressive waves at times because that's been a thing for millennia, really. He's capitalizing on it now, not causing it. If Bernie wasn't here, there would still be a whole host of people that would be considered about health care and the environment and such. Bernie is a part of the discussion, sure, and definitely a factor in shaping it to a point, but if he actually had that kind of power he'd have exercised it ages ago. He doesn't.

[gtn130]

All the stuff you've invented here does sound pretty bad

Plug your ears all you want. It doesn't actually sound bad to me, btw. It sounds like somebody who is well intentioned but isn't very good at working with others to get results in the messy world of politics and who also isn't very good with the details and often wants to just shout over them.

But now you're suggesting everything I wrote there I invented? I have to assume you mean the part where the voters are reasonable people who can read between the lines? See, this is the kind of thing that causes Bernie trouble, too, whether you want to admit it or not.

And if you didn't intend to suggest that everything was made up, which parts do you think were made up, exactly? They might be demonstrated in an angle you don't like, or even a misleading angle, but Bernie still hasn't learned. And yet we talk about Biden's "gaffs." With Bernie, they aren't gaffs because he doesn't back down and makes like he means it.

https://www.politicususa.com/2020/03/02/sanders-throws-south-carolina-voters-under-the-bus-by-claiming-they-arent-working-class.html

Your spin on this is just laughable.

Any theories at all as to why Bernie isn't very good at working with others? Is it because he's just grumpy? Or simply not very savvy? Too hard-headed that Crazy Bernie Sanders!

Meanwhile Chuck Todd and Chris Matthews are likening Bernie Sanders and his supporters to Nazis, and Hillary Clinton is randomly opining that nobody likes Bernie. It's almost as if the entire media and political establishment correctly views him as an existential threat, but man I dunno, it could just be that Ol' Bernie is just being a grump and needs start gettin' along with folks! I'm at a loss here, but I'll leave it to the savvy political commentariat to figure this one out!

[gtn130]

And I'd suggest that crediting Bernie for moving voters in any particular direction is giving credit where it simply isn't due. Bernie has been shouting the same things for literally decades now. He's the equivalent of a man who keeps shouting at the sky that it should rain until he's finally an old man and it starts raining and you're going to give him credit for it. I mean, you can't prove for sure that it isn't him, but it isn't him. Bernie doesn't get to take credit for younger generations rolling in progressive waves at times because that's been a thing for millennia, really. He's capitalizing on it now, not causing it. If Bernie wasn't here, there would still be a whole host of people that would be considered about health care and the environment and such. Bernie is a part of the discussion, sure, and definitely a factor in shaping it to a point, but if he actually had that kind of power he'd have exercised it ages ago. He doesn't.

Bernie Sanders ran a Presidential campaign in 2016. Pretending that isn't why Dems are moving left is MASK OFF time I guess

[gtn130]

We watch MSNBC trash Bernie for the entire primary as the Democrats offer zero support and circle the wagons for Biden, and the reaction to this is "Wow Bernie sucks at coalition building!"

Man, I wonder why!

[Kanyewest]

People are starting to notice that he has a rep for not compromising and not getting things done.

The disconnect between Bernie's message and his inability to understand how minorities or less represented people might not necessarily trust me honestly amuses me a bit. To use African Americans, for example, collectively they've been telling him for a while now that they want certain things. Bernie's response has been to tell them that they don't really want that and that they want what he's telling them they want, they just don't know it yet. And rather than listening to them and trying to come to an understanding, he keeps on keepin' on.

Suddenly, he finds out that there are institutions in place, like superdelegates, that might actually be a rare case of helping African Americans get what they want rather than the reverse, and he holds out when he knows he's lost and takes shots at those institutions, again, claiming (and probably intending) no ill-will but telling them he's really doing what's best for African Americans. Then he makes off-hand comments about his campaign being built on the working class in order to imply that losing a state largely to African American votes wasn't a big deal. These voters aren't stupid. They can read between the lines even if Bernie continues insisting there isn't anything between the lines. And then he seemingly is surprised that they don't trust the old, yelling white man who tells them they want what he wants not what they want and doesn't listen to them. Tone-deaf doesn't even begin to describe it. But hey, it's clearly the voters who are far too easily hurt to get behind Bernie's attempts to save their own lives. That's not at all illogical and insulting at the same time. It's a mystery why they won't support him.

I might have said it a little differently but you are absolutely correct. Bernie is tone deaf (and obstinate) when it comes to appealing to African American voters...or anyone else outside of his current base of support.

It didn’t help when after Biden won SC some Sanders supporters labeled the mostly black voters there “low information voters.”

Biden does have the advantage as well as being Obama's vice president. Sanders did get the endorsement of Jessie Jackson but can't seem to beat Biden in this demographic especially in the South.

[Ruzious]

The disconnect between Bernie's message and his inability to understand how minorities or less represented people might not necessarily trust me honestly amuses me a bit. To use African Americans, for example, collectively they've been telling him for a while now that they want certain things. Bernie's response has been to tell them that they don't really want that and that they want what he's telling them they want, they just don't know it yet. And rather than listening to them and trying to come to an understanding, he keeps on keepin' on.

Suddenly, he finds out that there are institutions in place, like superdelegates, that might actually be a rare case of helping African Americans get what they want rather than the reverse, and he holds out when he knows he's lost and takes shots at those institutions, again, claiming (and probably intending) no ill-will but telling them he's really doing what's best for African Americans. Then he makes off-hand comments about his campaign being built on the working class in order to imply that losing a state largely to African American votes wasn't a big deal. These voters aren't stupid. They can read between the lines even if Bernie continues insisting there isn't anything between the lines. And then he seemingly is surprised that they don't trust the old, yelling white man who tells them they want what he wants not what they want and doesn't listen to them. Tone-deaf doesn't even begin to describe it. But hey, it's clearly the voters who are far too easily hurt to get behind Bernie's attempts to save their own lives. That's not at all illogical and insulting at the same time. It's a mystery why they won't support him.

I might have said it a little differently but you are absolutely correct. Bernie is tone deaf (and obstinate) when it comes to appealing to African American voters...or anyone else outside of his current base of support.

It didn’t help when after Biden won SC some Sanders supporters labeled the mostly black voters there “low information voters.”

Biden does have the advantage as well as being Obama's vice president. Sanders did get the endorsement of Jessie Jackson but can't seem to beat Biden in this category.

Notice with the Jessie Jackson endorsement, the announcement was made by Sanders. With the endorsements given to Biden, the people making the endorsements were enthusiastic enough to make the announcements themselves.

[gtn130]

Notice with the Jessie Jackson endorsement, the announcement was made by Sanders. With the endorsements given to Biden, the people making the endorsements were enthusiastic enough to make the announcements themselves.

"With the exception of Native Americans, African Americans are the people who are most behind socially and economically in the United States and our needs are not moderate,” Jackson said in the statement. “A people far behind cannot catch up choosing the most moderate path. The most progressive social and economic path gives us the best chance to catch up and Senator Bernie Sanders represents the most progressive path. That's why I choose to endorse him today.”

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/03/08/jesse-jackson-backing-sanders-123747

Telling on yourselves

[Ruzious]

gtn, Sanders made the initial announcement. Stop with the gotcha bullshyt.

[gtn130]

gtn, Sanders made the initial announcement. Stop with the gotcha bullshyt.

Why on earth does this matter? You're literally dreaming up reasons for the Jesse Jackson endorsement to be illegitimate.

[Ruzious]

gtn, Sanders made the initial announcement. Stop with the gotcha bullshyt.

Why on earth does this matter? You're literally dreaming up reasons for the Jesse Jackson endorsement to be illegitimate.

OMG, Give it a f'n rest. It was just an observation.