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Political Roundtable Part XXIX

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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXIX 

Post#1201 » by Wizardspride » Tue Jan 12, 2021 1:15 am

Read on Twitter
?s=19
President Trump told two senior Russian officials in a 2017 Oval Office meeting that he was unconcerned about Moscow’s interference in the 2016 U.S. presidential election because the United States did the same in other countries
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXIX 

Post#1202 » by Zonkerbl » Tue Jan 12, 2021 3:34 pm

DCZards wrote:
Zonkerbl wrote:Talking to one of my neighbors here in Anacostia - absolutely NOT planning on getting the vaccine. She doesn't trust it.

I’ve been pleasantly surprised by the growing number of African Americans (many of them young) who I know personally who are now saying they WILL get vaccinated.

Spoke to a young lady (around 35 years old) yesterday who said she happened to be in a Safeway in DC when they announced that they had vaccinations available. She got one on the spot and called a friend to come get one as well.


The young lady I talked to was like "I do not trust the government"

Trump's politicization of the process did not help at all.

We ended up talking about how dangerous Anacostia is right now because nobody is taking any protective measures, nobody's wearing masks, etc. and even with all the potential dangers of a vaccine (like apparently the allergic reactions are greater than normal) it's still worth the risk to take the vaccine, all told
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXIX 

Post#1203 » by daSwami » Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:15 pm

I just noticed a Q sticker on my neighbor's car. Over the last few years, I've watched too many friends become Anti-vaxxers, Anti-maskers, 9/11 Truthers, Deep State conspiracists, etc. (Of course they'd all say I'm a socialist based on my Bernie bumpersticker.) But I cannot wrap my head around QAnon (not that I support Satanic Pedophile cults). Is there something I'm missing?
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXIX 

Post#1204 » by Fairview4Life » Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:16 pm

daSwami wrote:I just noticed a Q sticker on my neighbor's car. Over the last few years, I've watched too many friends become Anti-vaxxers, Anti-maskers, 9/11 Truthers, Deep State conspiracists, etc. (Of course they'd all say I'm a socialist based on my Bernie bumpersticker.) But I cannot wrap my head around QAnon (not that I support Satanic Pedophile cults). Is there something I'm missing?


This thread basically gets to the root of what's been happening:
Read on Twitter


Just easier for nuts to form social connections that draw other people in now.
9. Similarly, IF THOU HAST SPENT the entire offseason predicting that thy team will stink, thou shalt not gloat, nor even be happy, shouldst thou turn out to be correct. Realistic analysis is fine, but be a fan first, a smug smarty-pants second.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXIX 

Post#1205 » by dobrojim » Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:16 pm

Short answer (to swami) is no.

Eugene Robinson put it very well

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/to-save-american-democracy-truth-needs-to-beat-fantasy/2021/01/11/57c50e7a-5441-11eb-a08b-f1381ef3d207_story.html

The fight to save American democracy is just beginning. The outcome is far from certain, but the stakes are clear. It is a battle for objective truth over paranoid fantasy. And one of our two major parties, the onetime "Party of Lincoln," is on the wrong side. We must be blunt about how broadly and deeply the delusions advanced by President Trump have taken hold. Only then will we be prepared for the real work before us.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXIX 

Post#1206 » by Zonkerbl » Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:17 pm

daSwami wrote:I just noticed a Q sticker on my neighbor's car. Over the last few years, I've watched too many friends become Anti-vaxxers, Anti-maskers, 9/11 Truthers, Deep State conspiracists, etc. (Of course they'd all say I'm a socialist based on my Bernie bumpersticker.) But I cannot wrap my head around QAnon (not that I support Satanic Pedophile cults). Is there something I'm missing?


It's the logical conclusion of swallowing the red pill.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXIX 

Post#1207 » by gtn130 » Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:44 pm

Qanon and all the other right wing conspiracies are for mentally weak idiots who care more about feeling good than grappling with what is actually true. With the internet and lack of barriers in publishing content, unscrupulous morons can now choose to reject reality and live in an alternate universe if it makes them happier.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXIX 

Post#1208 » by daSwami » Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:45 pm

I fear all of these measures to silence them is only fueling their rage, and that cutting off Trump's narcisstic supply is compounding his rage, too. I offer no solutions, cutting off disinformation platforms seems prudent short-term, but this whole situation feels fraught.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXIX 

Post#1209 » by Wizardspride » Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:59 pm

Read on Twitter
?s=19


Read on Twitter
?s=19
President Trump told two senior Russian officials in a 2017 Oval Office meeting that he was unconcerned about Moscow’s interference in the 2016 U.S. presidential election because the United States did the same in other countries
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXIX 

Post#1210 » by bsilver » Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:44 pm

It was surprising to see the PGA (Professional Golf Association) change their mind about having the 2022 PGA Golf Championship at a Trump course. This must really depress Trump as he cares so much about his golf properties. The Trump brand is really hurting these days. There are some on the right that will seek out a Trump hotel or other facility, but I bet there are far more that will never go to anything Trump.

What made the decision surprising is that the vast majority of professional golfers are staunch republicans. So, the decision did not originate with the golfers. My guess is that the PGA is concerned with corporate sponsorship. Most companies don't want to face the anti-Trump backlash that would affect their bottom line if they are associated with Trump.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXIX 

Post#1211 » by doclinkin » Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:26 pm

daSwami wrote:I fear all of these measures to silence them is only fueling their rage, and that cutting off Trump's narcisstic supply is compounding his rage, too. I offer no solutions, cutting off disinformation platforms seems prudent short-term, but this whole situation feels fraught.


Violence is the language of the inarticulate. I agree that when free expression is suppressed it finds outlet in dangerous ways.

The problem is we have public figures and foreign agencies amplifying misinformation and weaponizing democracy against itself. Axiomatically half the country is of below average intelligence. Hitler and Geobbels figured out how to utilize the base nature and ignorance of humanity en masse as a biological agent. Our Founding Fathers tried to insulate against this by having an Electoral College of moneyed educated property owners as those with the final say in who gets elected. They built a system of checks and balances into our government specifically so that we would not elect a tyrant king with loud ideas. Bad ideas catch hold like wildfire. Fear is an accelerant for hate. Bad ideas can jump populations and mutate swifter than any other infection since all they are literally communicable in every medium of brain to brain transmission. We are well past the days of shouting at crowds or printing leaflets or hiring town criers or even radio and television. Here we now have the mass of humanity with access to a world wide printing press. It is a petri dish for virulent stupidity, and there needs to be firewalls against the worst ideas spreading. Especially since the vaccination of free public education seems to not be doing the job.

Facebook and twitter policing themselves under threat of anti-trust legislation may be the bare start. But more needs to be done, there are many who are not on social media who are absorbing toxic misinformation passively pumped into their houses all the time.

I feel like the 4th estate should be beholden by law not to spread known falsehoods. That any agency of a certain audience should fall under FCC rules not just for obscenity etc but for facts. That FOX 'news' etc should have an ombudsman much as newspapers traditionally did whose job it was to prevent incorrect information from reaching broadcast, or to be corrected on air. Shep Smith unofficially performed that role for them for as long as he could stand it. It seems to me though, while the 1st amendment is protected, there ought to be sanctions for knowingly promoting falsehoods as though they were fact. Yes it is fair to have opinion based programs, but those should be clearly designated as such, and that which is provably demonstrably factually incorrect ought to be challenged. Under penalty of law. Under penalty of cancellation after continual violations. I recognize that this could have dangerous potential if politicized, (FAKENEWS) but we have seen how dangerous it is to allow slander and libel and deliberate falsehood to kindle raging hate and idiocy in our vulnerable populace. Seems to me we need something to keep it in check. Frankly I think Rubert Murdoch should be facing multiple charges for deliberately spreading faslehoods to undermine democracy and interfere with the working of our free and fair elections. The same way we would treat foreign agencies like Russia attempting to subvert democracy.

And yeah we need to reverse Citizen's United and dark money PAC rules.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXIX 

Post#1212 » by doclinkin » Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:28 pm

bsilver wrote:It was surprising to see the PGA (Professional Golf Association) change their mind about having the 2022 PGA Golf Championship at a Trump course. This must really depress Trump as he cares so much about his golf properties. The Trump brand is really hurting these days. There are some on the right that will seek out a Trump hotel or other facility, but I bet there are far more that will never go to anything Trump.

What made the decision surprising is that the vast majority of professional golfers are staunch republicans. So, the decision did not originate with the golfers. My guess is that the PGA is concerned with corporate sponsorship. Most companies don't want to face the anti-Trump backlash that would affect their bottom line if they are associated with Trump.



What will hurt more is Deutsche Bank stating they will no longer do business with him, and that he has hundreds of millions of dollars worth of loans from them coming due in a couple years. Pretty much Russia is the only place where he can turn to for money at this point. Or China, if he begs.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXIX 

Post#1213 » by Zonkerbl » Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:31 pm

daSwami wrote:I fear all of these measures to silence them is only fueling their rage, and that cutting off Trump's narcisstic supply is compounding his rage, too. I offer no solutions, cutting off disinformation platforms seems prudent short-term, but this whole situation feels fraught.


Appeasement is *why* Hitler was so successful. The terrorists are going to feign outrage *no matter what we do.* The sooner and the stronger we respond, the easier it will be to contain the virus of Trump-fueled terrorism when it breaks out.

The correct response to terrorism is a full throated, overpowering, crushing counter-attack. That crap needs to be nipped in the bud right the eff now. Arguably it's too late - GOP enablers have allowed it to fester for four years, but that's all the more reason not to show any fear and beat that crap back with extreme prejudice.

What you want is sad crying Republicans, not angry fist shaking Republicans. You do that by punching them in the face, figuratively and when necessary, literally.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXIX 

Post#1214 » by bsilver » Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:04 pm

Zonkerbl wrote:
daSwami wrote:I fear all of these measures to silence them is only fueling their rage, and that cutting off Trump's narcisstic supply is compounding his rage, too. I offer no solutions, cutting off disinformation platforms seems prudent short-term, but this whole situation feels fraught.


Appeasement is *why* Hitler was so successful. The terrorists are going to feign outrage *no matter what we do.* The sooner and the stronger we respond, the easier it will be to contain the virus of Trump-fueled terrorism when it breaks out.

The correct response to terrorism is a full throated, overpowering, crushing counter-attack. That crap needs to be nipped in the bud right the eff now. Arguably it's too late - GOP enablers have allowed it to fester for four years, but that's all the more reason not to show any fear and beat that crap back with extreme prejudice.

What you want is sad crying Republicans, not angry fist shaking Republicans. You do that by punching them in the face, figuratively and when necessary, literally.

Doubt we'll see a "crushing counter-attack". Maybe if the terrorists were Black, but there's a lot police officers and soldiers sympathetic to Trump and believe his claims of the stolen election. Will the protectors of the Capitol and State government building even obey orders to use lethal force against attackers? My feeling is that they wouldn't unless they were facing lethal force themselves. We could even see a non-unified defense force with some responding with force, and others refusing. In any case, there's potential for total chaos in the near future.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXIX 

Post#1215 » by tontoz » Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:06 pm

bsilver wrote:It was surprising to see the PGA (Professional Golf Association) change their mind about having the 2022 PGA Golf Championship at a Trump course. This must really depress Trump as he cares so much about his golf properties. The Trump brand is really hurting these days. There are some on the right that will seek out a Trump hotel or other facility, but I bet there are far more that will never go to anything Trump.

What made the decision surprising is that the vast majority of professional golfers are staunch republicans. So, the decision did not originate with the golfers. My guess is that the PGA is concerned with corporate sponsorship. Most companies don't want to face the anti-Trump backlash that would affect their bottom line if they are associated with Trump.



The PGA Tour used to hold a tournament at Trump Doral but moved it to Mexico a few years ago because of some crazy stunt Trump did. Hard to remember what it was there have been so many.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXIX 

Post#1216 » by Zonkerbl » Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:32 pm

bsilver wrote:
Zonkerbl wrote:
daSwami wrote:I fear all of these measures to silence them is only fueling their rage, and that cutting off Trump's narcisstic supply is compounding his rage, too. I offer no solutions, cutting off disinformation platforms seems prudent short-term, but this whole situation feels fraught.


Appeasement is *why* Hitler was so successful. The terrorists are going to feign outrage *no matter what we do.* The sooner and the stronger we respond, the easier it will be to contain the virus of Trump-fueled terrorism when it breaks out.

The correct response to terrorism is a full throated, overpowering, crushing counter-attack. That crap needs to be nipped in the bud right the eff now. Arguably it's too late - GOP enablers have allowed it to fester for four years, but that's all the more reason not to show any fear and beat that crap back with extreme prejudice.

What you want is sad crying Republicans, not angry fist shaking Republicans. You do that by punching them in the face, figuratively and when necessary, literally.

Doubt we'll see a "crushing counter-attack". Maybe if the terrorists were Black, but there's a lot police officers and soldiers sympathetic to Trump and believe his claims of the stolen election. Will the protectors of the Capitol and State government building even obey orders to use lethal force against attackers? My feeling is that they wouldn't unless they were facing lethal force themselves. We could even see a non-unified defense force with some responding with force, and others refusing. In any case, there's potential for total chaos in the near future.


"Crushing counter-attack" /= "lethal force"

There's lots of disproportional responses you can consider that fall short of requiring lethal force. Just go back over the video of all the responses to the BLM protests.

Police officers and soldiers have sworn an oath to uphold the Constitution. That's one of the first places to begin your counter attack - zero tolerance for insubordination.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXIX 

Post#1217 » by dobrojim » Tue Jan 12, 2021 11:41 pm

Zonkerbl wrote:
daSwami wrote:I fear all of these measures to silence them is only fueling their rage, and that cutting off Trump's narcisstic supply is compounding his rage, too. I offer no solutions, cutting off disinformation platforms seems prudent short-term, but this whole situation feels fraught.


Appeasement is *why* Hitler was so successful. The terrorists are going to feign outrage *no matter what we do.* The sooner and the stronger we respond, the easier it will be to contain the virus of Trump-fueled terrorism when it breaks out.

The correct response to terrorism is a full throated, overpowering, crushing counter-attack. That crap needs to be nipped in the bud right the eff now. Arguably it's too late - GOP enablers have allowed it to fester for four years, but that's all the more reason not to show any fear and beat that crap back with extreme prejudice.

What you want is sad crying Republicans, not angry fist shaking Republicans. You do that by punching them in the face, figuratively and when necessary, literally.


Arguably it's been a lot longer than that. I remember at least 5-10 years ago the dems wanted to
study or fund counter-activity to domestic right wing terrorism. The GOP got highly offended and pushed back
hard on that.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXIX 

Post#1218 » by Wizardspride » Wed Jan 13, 2021 12:50 am

Read on Twitter
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President Trump told two senior Russian officials in a 2017 Oval Office meeting that he was unconcerned about Moscow’s interference in the 2016 U.S. presidential election because the United States did the same in other countries
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXIX 

Post#1219 » by Ruzious » Wed Jan 13, 2021 1:11 pm

I think Liz Cheney's comments will go down in history as the best summary of what happened. It was heroic, because it will definitely stifle her power in the Republican party, but sometimes politicians do the right thing, anyway. There's hope because there are moments when leaders step up like she did.

"The President of the United States summoned this mob, assembled the mob, and lit the flame of this attack. Everything that followed was his doing. None of this would have happened without the President," said Cheney. "The President could have immediately and forcefully intervened to stop the violence. He did not."
"There has never been a greater betrayal by a President of the United States of his office and his oath to the Constitution," she added. "I will vote to impeach the President."
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXIX 

Post#1220 » by Wizardspride » Wed Jan 13, 2021 2:05 pm

Read on Twitter
?s=19


Read on Twitter
?s=19
President Trump told two senior Russian officials in a 2017 Oval Office meeting that he was unconcerned about Moscow’s interference in the 2016 U.S. presidential election because the United States did the same in other countries

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