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Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIX

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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIX 

Post#1361 » by nate33 » Tue Jan 12, 2021 9:49 pm

I don't think Atlanta is too thrilled with the idea of going all in on Beal. His skill set is too redundant with Trae Young. If they go all in, they're going to want a big wing who is a 2-way player, not another high usage guard who is, at best, an ordinary defender.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIX 

Post#1362 » by NatP4 » Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:16 pm

nate33 wrote:I don't think Atlanta is too thrilled with the idea of going all in on Beal. His skill set is too redundant with Trae Young. If they go all in, they're going to want a big wing who is a 2-way player, not another high usage guard who is, at best, an ordinary defender.


Do they really wanna tie up 90 million in Bogdanovic/Capela/Gallinari/Collins ?

It seems like they are already pretty all in. Judging from what Collins turned down, he’s looking for a max, which would put them in the tax this offseason. Collins is gone by the deadline.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIX 

Post#1363 » by gambitx777 » Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:18 pm

I don't believe Tommy is the problem.im sure he was given orders. He did the best with what he was told to do. If he was told to rebuild I'm sure he would do his best with that and I imagine he would have and could have done a good job with a rebuild. Brooks needs to go! But, I think there are options. If we wait too long on westbrook though we might be stuck stuck on him. right now you might still be able to move him maybe.

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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIX 

Post#1364 » by payitforward » Wed Jan 13, 2021 12:04 am

For reasons which must be utterly obvious, there is no chance whatever that we trade Westbrook.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIX 

Post#1365 » by Dat2U » Wed Jan 13, 2021 1:36 am

NatP4 wrote:
nate33 wrote:I don't think Atlanta is too thrilled with the idea of going all in on Beal. His skill set is too redundant with Trae Young. If they go all in, they're going to want a big wing who is a 2-way player, not another high usage guard who is, at best, an ordinary defender.


Do they really wanna tie up 90 million in Bogdanovic/Capela/Gallinari/Collins ?

It seems like they are already pretty all in. Judging from what Collins turned down, he’s looking for a max, which would put them in the tax this offseason. Collins is gone by the deadline.


Why we so interested in helping Atlanta out? A division rival! Wouldn't it be to our benefit if they lost Collins for nothing? And if that's a potential risk wouldn't that significantly hurt his trads value?

And then why are we wanting trade Beal so we can pay the max to a lesser player? How does this improve things long term?

I need a top lottery pick or a blue chipper in a deal. All these b and c-level assets don't significantly move the needle. These are all trades just to make a trade.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIX 

Post#1366 » by Dat2U » Wed Jan 13, 2021 1:44 am

gambitx777 wrote:I don't believe Tommy is the problem.im sure he was given orders. He did the best with what he was told to do. If he was told to rebuild I'm sure he would do his best with that and I imagine he would have and could have done a good job with a rebuild. Brooks needs to go! But, I think there are options. If we wait too long on westbrook though we might be stuck stuck on him. right now you might still be able to move him maybe.

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We are stuck with Westbrook. Its too late. Had we simpy waited a couple of weeks, we could have easily moved Wall if we wanted too. And we wouldn't likely have had to take back Westbrook or give up a first to do it.

Only thing we can hope for with Westbrook is that we allow him to get healthy and when he comes back, we surround him with shooting to get the most out of him. That or hope they bring the amnesty provision back.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIX 

Post#1367 » by doclinkin » Wed Jan 13, 2021 1:53 am

I'm down with the amnesty. I think he stalls the development of the talent we do have.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIX 

Post#1368 » by TGW » Wed Jan 13, 2021 2:00 am

Sheppard should be fired for that trade IMO. It's arguably worst than any single trade EG ever made except for the disastrous trade for Mike Miller and Randy Foye.
Some random troll wrote:Not to sound negative, but this team is owned by an arrogant cheapskate, managed by a moron and coached by an idiot. Recipe for disaster.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIX 

Post#1369 » by NatP4 » Wed Jan 13, 2021 2:19 am

I bet we can still move Westbrook after he comes back and plays with a different coach in common sense lineups. His shooting% was down, but he was still averaging a triple double for us. I’m sure we could move him for some expiring or 2 year filler contracts that turn into trade chips next season.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIX 

Post#1370 » by NatP4 » Wed Jan 13, 2021 2:25 am

Dat2U wrote:
NatP4 wrote:
nate33 wrote:I don't think Atlanta is too thrilled with the idea of going all in on Beal. His skill set is too redundant with Trae Young. If they go all in, they're going to want a big wing who is a 2-way player, not another high usage guard who is, at best, an ordinary defender.


Do they really wanna tie up 90 million in Bogdanovic/Capela/Gallinari/Collins ?

It seems like they are already pretty all in. Judging from what Collins turned down, he’s looking for a max, which would put them in the tax this offseason. Collins is gone by the deadline.


Why we so interested in helping Atlanta out? A division rival! Wouldn't it be to our benefit if they lost Collins for nothing? And if that's a potential risk wouldn't that significantly hurt his trads value?

And then why are we wanting trade Beal so we can pay the max to a lesser player? How does this improve things long term?

I need a top lottery pick or a blue chipper in a deal. All these b and c-level assets don't significantly move the needle. These are all trades just to make a trade.


What blue chip assets are we talking about here that are realistically available?
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIX 

Post#1371 » by payitforward » Wed Jan 13, 2021 1:33 pm

Dat2U wrote:
NatP4 wrote:
nate33 wrote:I don't think Atlanta is too thrilled with the idea of going all in on Beal. His skill set is too redundant with Trae Young. If they go all in, they're going to want a big wing who is a 2-way player, not another high usage guard who is, at best, an ordinary defender.


Do they really wanna tie up 90 million in Bogdanovic/Capela/Gallinari/Collins ?

It seems like they are already pretty all in. Judging from what Collins turned down, he’s looking for a max, which would put them in the tax this offseason. Collins is gone by the deadline.


Why we so interested in helping Atlanta out? A division rival! Wouldn't it be to our benefit if they lost Collins for nothing? And if that's a potential risk wouldn't that significantly hurt his trads value?

And then why are we wanting trade Beal so we can pay the max to a lesser player? How does this improve things long term?

I need a top lottery pick or a blue chipper in a deal. All these b and c-level assets don't significantly move the needle. These are all trades just to make a trade.

The more we get for Beal the better, Dat.

But, just as the risk of losing Collins for nothing would hurt his trade value, so too the risk of losing Beal for nothing will hurt his trade value.

Does that risk exist? I would have to say that it does.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIX 

Post#1372 » by nate33 » Wed Jan 13, 2021 1:50 pm

TGW wrote:Sheppard should be fired for that trade IMO. It's arguably worst than any single trade EG ever made except for the disastrous trade for Mike Miller and Randy Foye.

No it isn't. Wall isn't that good either. His assists are way down (without a similar drop in TO's). His shooting is still bad. He's not getting to the free throw line. And his team is -7.1 per 100 when he is on the court. Yeah, he is still playing better than Westbrook, who has been awful, but let's not act like Wall is still a star. It's still a really bad contract.

It's like choosing between a trash fire and a dumpster fire. Yeah, the trash fire is better, but the difference between the two doesn't make or break the future of your franchise. The trade wasn't nearly as bad as the Miller trade, the Vesely draft or the free agency signings of 2016.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIX 

Post#1373 » by Frichuela » Wed Jan 13, 2021 2:10 pm

nate33 wrote:
TGW wrote:Sheppard should be fired for that trade IMO. It's arguably worst than any single trade EG ever made except for the disastrous trade for Mike Miller and Randy Foye.

No it isn't. Wall isn't that good either. His assists are way down (without a similar drop in TO's). His shooting is still bad. He's not getting to the free throw line. And his team is -7.1 per 100 when he is on the court. Yeah, he is still playing better than Westbrook, who has been awful, but let's not act like Wall is still a star. It's still a really bad contract.

It's like choosing between a trash fire and a dumpster fire. Yeah, the trash fire is better, but the difference between the two doesn't make or break the future of your franchise. The trade wasn't nearly as bad as the Miller trade, the Vesely draft or the free agency signings of 2016.


Agree with this.

Also, Tyler Herro had another +30 points performance in an overtime loss versus Philly yesterday. He is the only young prospect with star potential that is possibly available in a Beal trade.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIX 

Post#1374 » by NatP4 » Wed Jan 13, 2021 2:21 pm

nate33 wrote:
TGW wrote:Sheppard should be fired for that trade IMO. It's arguably worst than any single trade EG ever made except for the disastrous trade for Mike Miller and Randy Foye.

No it isn't. Wall isn't that good either. His assists are way down (without a similar drop in TO's). His shooting is still bad. He's not getting to the free throw line. And his team is -7.1 per 100 when he is on the court. Yeah, he is still playing better than Westbrook, who has been awful, but let's not act like Wall is still a star. It's still a really bad contract.

It's like choosing between a trash fire and a dumpster fire. Yeah, the trash fire is better, but the difference between the two doesn't make or break the future of your franchise. The trade wasn't nearly as bad as the Miller trade, the Vesely draft or the free agency signings of 2016.


Raptor player ratings have him ranked as the worst player on the rockets and bottom 10 on the western conference. His on/off differential is -12.3, good for 3rd worst on the rockets. He shot well for a couple games to start the season, now his numbers are all coming back down to earth. The most bizarre stat is that he’s almost averaging more turnovers than assist.

People saw one single highlight of him stealing the ball from Fox and acted like he was back to playing defense, but he has been a total liability on that end if you watch full rockets games.

Still, it’s been 7 games for each. Both teams are awful. Westbrook is dealing with an awful coach, Wall is dealing with a franchise player that doesn’t care about winning at all.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIX 

Post#1375 » by SA37 » Wed Jan 13, 2021 2:50 pm

Ruzious wrote:NatP4 mentioned Hunter and Collins in another thread, and that got me to thinking - can we get them both? So here goes:

We trade Beal, Rui and Wagner to Atl for Collins, Hunter, Okongwu, and Snell (filler). We get a full front court (while still having Bryant, Bertans, Avdija, and Bonga) and free up TBJ for the backcourt. Trade up to draft Cunningham or Suggs. Atl still has Capella, Gallinari and Bruno up front with Rui, and they can play Bogdan and Reddish at the 3. And they'd have the most explosive backcourt in the East.


That would be a really good trade for both teams. I don't know anything about Okongwu, though.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIX 

Post#1376 » by pcbothwel » Wed Jan 13, 2021 2:51 pm

Frichuela wrote:
nate33 wrote:
TGW wrote:Sheppard should be fired for that trade IMO. It's arguably worst than any single trade EG ever made except for the disastrous trade for Mike Miller and Randy Foye.

No it isn't. Wall isn't that good either. His assists are way down (without a similar drop in TO's). His shooting is still bad. He's not getting to the free throw line. And his team is -7.1 per 100 when he is on the court. Yeah, he is still playing better than Westbrook, who has been awful, but let's not act like Wall is still a star. It's still a really bad contract.

It's like choosing between a trash fire and a dumpster fire. Yeah, the trash fire is better, but the difference between the two doesn't make or break the future of your franchise. The trade wasn't nearly as bad as the Miller trade, the Vesely draft or the free agency signings of 2016.


Agree with this.

Also, Tyler Herro had another +30 points performance in an overtime loss versus Philly yesterday. He is the only young prospect with star potential that is possibly available in a Beal trade.


Sorry... but what is with this infatuation with Herro. I think he clearly projects as a good player/starter, but he plays for an elite organization all the way around and he been pretty...pedestrian.
He rebounds well and competes, but his efficiency is average and and his AST:TOV ratio is 4:3 with a ORtg of 103 and negative On/Off.
He is 6 months younger than Troy Brown and Im not sure how he has "Star" potential over him.

Sure, you could point to Beal and see some similarities at the same age, but Beal was/is in another stratosphere with his frame and as an athlete. And his rebounding is overrated. He gets a ton of uncontested defensive rebounds, but his ORB% is anemic.
For context, Beal is averaging a per36 of 5.3 rebounds with 1.5 of them Offensive (4.3% ORB%). Herro is pulling down 7.2/36, but only 0.1/36 offensively (0.4% ORB%). 61 Rebounds this season, and only 1 was an offensive board. Not impressed.

Again, I like him and he projects to be a starter on a good team... but a "Star"... no.
As for his performance last night you site. He looked good, but he averaged 6 turnovers to his 4 assist and was a team worst -17.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIX 

Post#1377 » by Ruzious » Wed Jan 13, 2021 3:04 pm

nate33 wrote:
TGW wrote:Sheppard should be fired for that trade IMO. It's arguably worst than any single trade EG ever made except for the disastrous trade for Mike Miller and Randy Foye.

No it isn't. Wall isn't that good either. His assists are way down (without a similar drop in TO's). His shooting is still bad. He's not getting to the free throw line. And his team is -7.1 per 100 when he is on the court. Yeah, he is still playing better than Westbrook, who has been awful, but let's not act like Wall is still a star. It's still a really bad contract.

It's like choosing between a trash fire and a dumpster fire. Yeah, the trash fire is better, but the difference between the two doesn't make or break the future of your franchise. The trade wasn't nearly as bad as the Miller trade, the Vesely draft or the free agency signings of 2016.

Still, it bothers me that he didn't wait to see how John would have done here. Maybe that was Ted's decision. Also, I think playing with Harden has cut his assists dramatically. Same thing happened to Westbrook last year - playing with Harden.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIX 

Post#1378 » by Frichuela » Wed Jan 13, 2021 3:51 pm

pcbothwel wrote:
Frichuela wrote:
nate33 wrote:No it isn't. Wall isn't that good either. His assists are way down (without a similar drop in TO's). His shooting is still bad. He's not getting to the free throw line. And his team is -7.1 per 100 when he is on the court. Yeah, he is still playing better than Westbrook, who has been awful, but let's not act like Wall is still a star. It's still a really bad contract.

It's like choosing between a trash fire and a dumpster fire. Yeah, the trash fire is better, but the difference between the two doesn't make or break the future of your franchise. The trade wasn't nearly as bad as the Miller trade, the Vesely draft or the free agency signings of 2016.


Agree with this.

Also, Tyler Herro had another +30 points performance in an overtime loss versus Philly yesterday. He is the only young prospect with star potential that is possibly available in a Beal trade.


Sorry... but what is with this infatuation with Herro. I think he clearly projects as a good player/starter, but he plays for an elite organization all the way around and he been pretty...pedestrian.
He rebounds well and competes, but his efficiency is average and and his AST:TOV ratio is 4:3 with a ORtg of 103 and negative On/Off.
He is 6 months younger than Troy Brown and Im not sure how he has "Star" potential over him.

Sure, you could point to Beal and see some similarities at the same age, but Beal was/is in another stratosphere with his frame and as an athlete. And his rebounding is overrated. He gets a ton of uncontested defensive rebounds, but his ORB% is anemic.
For context, Beal is averaging a per36 of 5.3 rebounds with 1.5 of them Offensive (4.3% ORB%). Herro is pulling down 7.2/36, but only 0.1/36 offensively (0.4% ORB%). 61 Rebounds this season, and only 1 was an offensive board. Not impressed.

Again, I like him and he projects to be a starter on a good team... but a "Star"... no.
As for his performance last night you site. He looked good, but he averaged 6 turnovers to his 4 assist and was a team worst -17.


Hang on a sec. Herro is not even 21, and was playing at a high level in his rookie season during last year's playoffs, when he played starter minutes in the NBA finals!! Throughout the playoffs, he scored 16 points, 5.1 rebounds, 3.7 assists (2.0 turnovers) with 38% 3P% and a 52% eFG%.

It's fine to cherry pick on his "anemic" offensive rebounding but he's got great defensive rebounding. To me, he is a more complete player than Brad was in his second season. Let's compare Herro's stats for this season (so far) to Brad's second season. Per 36, Herro is better in points, personal faults, assists, rebounds (almost double) and 2 point %. Brad was better at turnovers, blocks, steals and 3 point %. Everything else is a wash.

https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1=herroty01&p1yrfrom=2021&player_id2=bealbr01&p2yrfrom=2014#stats-per_minute

Sorry but you can not tell me that Herro does not project to be as good as Brad is now when comparing them in their second seasons. Now, a different discussion is if you think Herro is close to his ceiling and won't be able to improve like Brad has done.

Let's remember that Herro has 2 1/2 more years in a cheap rookie scale contract (was picked 13th). Plus we'll have his RFA rights after it.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIX 

Post#1379 » by pcbothwel » Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:34 pm

Im aware of his age... if he wasnt so young then I wouldnt take a second look as he is NOT a good player right now. He is a rotation worthy player on a good team and a starter on a bad team RIGHT NOW. He is about average, not good.

I agree with you when you compare him and Brad at the same stage, but I dont think he has the frame/strength/athleticism to have the ceiling Brad had and i dont see the skill level of a Curry/Kyrie to overcome the physical deficiencies.

Compare Troy Brown to Herro and explain to me how Herro projects to be the better player?
Lets all step back and be honest. Troy was better than Herro last year. Except Herro had a great series against Boston in the playoffs and thats all anyone seems to remember.

Again, Herro WILL be a good player in this league for a long time, but I think people are getting a bit ahead of themselves.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIX 

Post#1380 » by nate33 » Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:47 pm

pcbothwel wrote:Im aware of his age... if he wasnt so young then I wouldnt take a second look as he is NOT a good player right now. He is a rotation worthy player on a good team and a starter on a bad team RIGHT NOW. He is about average, not good.

I agree with you when you compare him and Brad at the same stage, but I dont think he has the frame/strength/athleticism to have the ceiling Brad had and i dont see the skill level of a Curry/Kyrie to overcome the physical deficiencies.

Compare Troy Brown to Herro and explain to me how Herro projects to be the better player?
Lets all step back and be honest. Troy was better than Herro last year. Except Herro had a great series against Boston in the playoffs and thats all anyone seems to remember.

Again, Herro WILL be a good player in this league for a long time, but I think people are getting a bit ahead of themselves.

One thing is for sure, you can't use young Bradley Beal comparisons as any type of standard. Beal has had a remarkable mid-career jump in production that you just don't see very often. Kyle Lowry did it. So did Steve Nash. But those are some of the only names that come to mind. For most guys, what you see by age 24-25 is pretty much what you get.

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