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Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIX

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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIX 

Post#1381 » by payitforward » Wed Jan 13, 2021 5:01 pm

nate33 wrote:
TGW wrote:Sheppard should be fired for that trade IMO. It's arguably worst than any single trade EG ever made except for the disastrous trade for Mike Miller and Randy Foye.

No it isn't. Wall isn't that good either. His assists are way down (without a similar drop in TO's). His shooting is still bad. He's not getting to the free throw line. And his team is -7.1 per 100 when he is on the court. Yeah, he is still playing better than Westbrook, who has been awful, but let's not act like Wall is still a star. It's still a really bad contract.

It's like choosing between a trash fire and a dumpster fire. Yeah, the trash fire is better, but the difference between the two doesn't make or break the future of your franchise. The trade wasn't nearly as bad as the Miller trade, the Vesely draft or the free agency signings of 2016.

Being generous, we should expect both guys to improve as the season wears on. In John's case b/c he's coming back after a long time off, & in Russ's case b/c that's what happened last year.

Still, as you point out, Russ has been way worse than Wall so far -- so even if both improve that's no argument in favor of the trade.

But, what you didn't mention in this post is the big killer -- the R1 pick we gave for the privilege, at least so far, of even worse performance. It must be obvious by now that this is a rebuilding team. Might not like it, but a fact is a fact.

A rebuilding team cannot afford to give up a R1 pick for a 32 year old player. Period.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIX 

Post#1382 » by payitforward » Wed Jan 13, 2021 5:08 pm

TGW wrote:Sheppard should be fired for that trade IMO. It's arguably worst than any single trade EG ever made except for the disastrous trade for Mike Miller and Randy Foye.

It was a bad trade -- or certainly that's how it looks. But, you are leaving out two related issues:

1. There is at least some likelihood that Brad didn't want to play with John any more.
2. I feel almost certain that this trade was at Ted's behest. The gang signs incident took him over the top.

IOW, this might have been more a matter of an organizational decision about John than a basketball one. That doesn't make the trade any better, but it does allow us to put less weight on it in judging Tommy than we would otherwise.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIX 

Post#1383 » by Frichuela » Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:13 pm

if Philly trades for Harden, and losses Simmons+Maxey, would Tommy get involved in the sweepstakes as a 3rd party? He has shown a proven ability to do so in the past.

I fear that if this organization has soared on Troy Brown, would Tommy trade him to Philly for something like Tony Bradley + Paul Reed (or Isaiah Joe)+ NY 2021 2nd? How would we feel about it?
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIX 

Post#1384 » by Frichuela » Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:19 pm

Frichuela wrote:if Philly trades for Harden, and losses Simmons+Maxey, would Tommy get involved in the sweepstakes as a 3rd party? He has shown a proven ability to do so in the past.

I fear that if this organization has soared on Troy Brown, would Tommy trade him to Philly for something like Tony Bradley + Paul Reed (or Isaiah Joe)+ NY 2021 2nd? How would we feel about it?


Forget about this! Rockets just traded Harden to the Nets and the Cavs got in there as a third party!!

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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIX 

Post#1385 » by Dat2U » Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:31 pm

pcbothwel wrote:
Frichuela wrote:
nate33 wrote:No it isn't. Wall isn't that good either. His assists are way down (without a similar drop in TO's). His shooting is still bad. He's not getting to the free throw line. And his team is -7.1 per 100 when he is on the court. Yeah, he is still playing better than Westbrook, who has been awful, but let's not act like Wall is still a star. It's still a really bad contract.

It's like choosing between a trash fire and a dumpster fire. Yeah, the trash fire is better, but the difference between the two doesn't make or break the future of your franchise. The trade wasn't nearly as bad as the Miller trade, the Vesely draft or the free agency signings of 2016.


Agree with this.

Also, Tyler Herro had another +30 points performance in an overtime loss versus Philly yesterday. He is the only young prospect with star potential that is possibly available in a Beal trade.


Sorry... but what is with this infatuation with Herro. I think he clearly projects as a good player/starter, but he plays for an elite organization all the way around and he been pretty...pedestrian.
He rebounds well and competes, but his efficiency is average and and his AST:TOV ratio is 4:3 with a ORtg of 103 and negative On/Off.
He is 6 months younger than Troy Brown and Im not sure how he has "Star" potential over him.

Sure, you could point to Beal and see some similarities at the same age, but Beal was/is in another stratosphere with his frame and as an athlete. And his rebounding is overrated. He gets a ton of uncontested defensive rebounds, but his ORB% is anemic.
For context, Beal is averaging a per36 of 5.3 rebounds with 1.5 of them Offensive (4.3% ORB%). Herro is pulling down 7.2/36, but only 0.1/36 offensively (0.4% ORB%). 61 Rebounds this season, and only 1 was an offensive board. Not impressed.

Again, I like him and he projects to be a starter on a good team... but a "Star"... no.
As for his performance last night you site. He looked good, but he averaged 6 turnovers to his 4 assist and was a team worst -17.


You look at age and productivity more so than +/- when they just come in. I compare him to Devin Booker. Look at what each did as a rookie. Main difference. Herro is doing it on a playoff team. His best time is ahead of him.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIX 

Post#1386 » by Dat2U » Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:34 pm

NatP4 wrote:
Dat2U wrote:
NatP4 wrote:
Do they really wanna tie up 90 million in Bogdanovic/Capela/Gallinari/Collins ?

It seems like they are already pretty all in. Judging from what Collins turned down, he’s looking for a max, which would put them in the tax this offseason. Collins is gone by the deadline.


Why we so interested in helping Atlanta out? A division rival! Wouldn't it be to our benefit if they lost Collins for nothing? And if that's a potential risk wouldn't that significantly hurt his trads value?

And then why are we wanting trade Beal so we can pay the max to a lesser player? How does this improve things long term?

I need a top lottery pick or a blue chipper in a deal. All these b and c-level assets don't significantly move the needle. These are all trades just to make a trade.


What blue chip assets are we talking about here that are realistically available?


Ben Simmons, Tyler Herro (depending on point of view and I need more than just him) and a top 3 pick in the 2021 draft. Those are the best assets I see atm.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIX 

Post#1387 » by MikeTheKid » Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:52 pm

The Wiz should call Cleveland for a Big
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIX 

Post#1388 » by pcbothwel » Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:52 pm

Dat2U wrote:
NatP4 wrote:
Dat2U wrote:
Why we so interested in helping Atlanta out? A division rival! Wouldn't it be to our benefit if they lost Collins for nothing? And if that's a potential risk wouldn't that significantly hurt his trads value?

And then why are we wanting trade Beal so we can pay the max to a lesser player? How does this improve things long term?

I need a top lottery pick or a blue chipper in a deal. All these b and c-level assets don't significantly move the needle. These are all trades just to make a trade.


What blue chip assets are we talking about here that are realistically available?


Ben Simmons, Tyler Herro (depending on point of view and I need more than just him) and a top 3 pick in the 2021 draft. Those are the best assets I see atm.


None of what you listed except a top 3 pick in 2021 is blue chip.
Miami would have an interesting package with Herro + Achuiwa, but they dont have the picks to send us due to their 2023 pick protections.
This is most/best they could offer in my judgement:
Herro
Achuiwa
2024, 2025, 2026 Pick swap
2027 unprotected
--- Expiring Filler: Iggy (Waived) & Leonard

For Beal & Robinson (We save 2M immediately)

If you LOVE Herro then you take it, but its less than what Houston got for an older malcontent who has demanded out.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIX 

Post#1389 » by WallToWall » Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:55 pm

In sending Harden to the Nets, Houston also receives Brooklyn's three unprotected first-round draft picks -- 2022, 2024 and 2026 -- in the deal, plus pick swaps in 2021, 2023, 2025 and 2027.
What then should we get for Beal, given his current production?

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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIX 

Post#1390 » by Ruzious » Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:05 pm

WallToWall wrote:In sending Harden to the Nets, Houston also receives Brooklyn's three unprotected first-round draft picks -- 2022, 2024 and 2026 -- in the deal, plus pick swaps in 2021, 2023, 2025 and 2027.
What then should we get for Beal, given his current production?

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I think they also got a Milwaukee FRP. Beal's got more trade value than Harden, so we should get more than that. People are expecting the Brooklyn picks to be very low, but I don't know about that - as they seem to me to be a poorly run organization.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIX 

Post#1391 » by nate33 » Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:18 pm

Ruzious wrote:
WallToWall wrote:In sending Harden to the Nets, Houston also receives Brooklyn's three unprotected first-round draft picks -- 2022, 2024 and 2026 -- in the deal, plus pick swaps in 2021, 2023, 2025 and 2027.
What then should we get for Beal, given his current production?

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I think they also got a Milwaukee FRP. Beal's got more trade value than Harden, so we should get more than that. People are expecting the Brooklyn picks to be very low, but I don't know about that - as they seem to me to be a poorly run organization.

What we need is a contending team who has most of their future picks available, who wants to add Beal and make a run for a title. Also, that contending team would preferably be reliant on fairly old superstars who figure to decline in the next 3-4 years, rendering distant future picks as possible lotto picks.

The problem is, there aren't very many teams that fit that criteria. Brooklyn was one of the last ones.

The Clippers, Lakers, Nets, Heat and Bucks have already traded away their future picks.

Denver, Boston, Utah and Philly have future picks to trade, but their talent is based on younger players so they should remain competitive for the next 6 years and those future picks have little value.

Portland has future picks, but no need for a shooting guard.

Golden State is really the only candidate. Trade Beal for the Minny pick and a bunch of picks and pick swaps in 2025 or later.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIX 

Post#1392 » by trast66 » Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:23 pm

The Nets will challenge the Lakers as far as having the most unlikable superstars.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIX 

Post#1393 » by queridiculo » Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:23 pm

In a trade with Golden State I'd want Wiseman and the Minnesota pick at a bare minimum, but yeah, slim pickings, Miami is the only other team that comes to mind.

Butler is bound to fall off a cliff soonish and as good as Adebayo is, he's being overrated as a franchise cornerstone type player.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIX 

Post#1394 » by Ruzious » Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:23 pm

nate33 wrote:
Ruzious wrote:
WallToWall wrote:In sending Harden to the Nets, Houston also receives Brooklyn's three unprotected first-round draft picks -- 2022, 2024 and 2026 -- in the deal, plus pick swaps in 2021, 2023, 2025 and 2027.
What then should we get for Beal, given his current production?

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I think they also got a Milwaukee FRP. Beal's got more trade value than Harden, so we should get more than that. People are expecting the Brooklyn picks to be very low, but I don't know about that - as they seem to me to be a poorly run organization.

What we need is a contending team who has most of their future picks available, who wants to add Beal and make a run for a title. Also, that contending team would preferably be reliant on fairly old superstars who figure to decline in the next 3-4 years, rendering distant future picks as possible lotto picks.

The problem is, there aren't very many teams that fit that criteria. Brooklyn was one of the last ones.

The Clippers, Lakers, Nets, Heat and Bucks have already traded away their future picks.

Denver, Boston, Utah and Philly have future picks to trade, but their talent is based on younger players so they should remain competitive for the next 6 years and those future picks have little value.

Portland has future picks, but no need for a shooting guard.

Golden State is really the only candidate. Trade Beal for the Minny pick and a bunch of picks and pick swaps in 2025 or later.

Yeah, I was thinking GS, as well, but they're not ideal. We probably need to be patient - something will come up by the trade deadline. Or we go on a big win streak and keep him.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIX 

Post#1395 » by prime1time » Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:27 pm

WallToWall wrote:In sending Harden to the Nets, Houston also receives Brooklyn's three unprotected first-round draft picks -- 2022, 2024 and 2026 -- in the deal, plus pick swaps in 2021, 2023, 2025 and 2027.
What then should we get for Beal, given his current production?

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Question pick swaps. How much value do these have?
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIX 

Post#1396 » by J-Ves » Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:24 am

Wiseman + Wiggins + Minnesota 2021 1st(top 3 protected) + Warriors 2023 1st
for
Beal + salary filler

how much more do the Warriors have to add for this trade to be considered acceptable assuming Beal is on the trading block? Also assume Wiggins must be included and the deal must be done by this season's trade deadline.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIX 

Post#1397 » by pcbothwel » Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:10 am

J-Ves wrote:Wiseman + Wiggins + Minnesota 2021 1st(top 3 protected) + Warriors 2023 1st
for
Beal + salary filler

how much more do the Warriors have to add for this trade to be considered acceptable assuming Beal is on the trading block? Also assume Wiggins must be included and the deal must be done by this season's trade deadline.


2021 pick and 2026 or 2027 unprotected.
Don’t like wiseman and Wiggins contract is awful.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIX 

Post#1398 » by SUPERBALLMAN » Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:10 am

Maybe we can deal Westbrook to NJ so they can recreate the old OKC ??
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- PartXXXIX 

Post#1399 » by truwizfan4evr » Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:48 am

Why didn’t we trade for Allen? Cavaliers literally got him for a bag of chips
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIX 

Post#1400 » by WallToWall » Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:56 am

If I could trade Westbrook for a reasonably good center and a 2nd rnd pick, I would. Thats probably why I'm not a GM even in a fantasy league. Then again, if we could do that, we may have a better team.

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