Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIX

[SA37]

That’s not really the question though. The questions are more like: does he have good hands? Is he physical? Does he have a motor? Does he have good understanding of defensive schemes/concepts? Does he have a good understanding of offensive spacing and good shots vs bad shots? Does he have good vision/natural playmaking ability? Does he have the “it” factor or competitiveness? Does he play unselfishly for the win or for personal success?

You can read as many articles or watch YouTube highlight videos, but that doesn’t compare to watching actual full games. The Warriors play basically every single game on National TV. Wiseman has serious shortcomings. He is borderline unplayable. There is a reason that non casual Warrior fans are already debating bust/no bust.

Yes he’s 19, he didn’t play college basketball because he was suspended. How many players develop feel for the game in college basketball? How many unplayable rookies with massively negative on/off numbers, go on to be “stars”

Marvin Bagley, Mo Bamba, Jaxson Hayes, Marquess Chris all had the physical tools. None of them are NBA players.

It's been 12 games.

Just to show you there is hope:

Jermaine O'Neal barely got off the bench for his first 4 seasons in Portland and he ended up becoming a perennial All-star in the NBA.

Tony Parker had plenty of doubters, including Popovich, and San Antonio came really close to replacing him at different points.

Dirk Nowitzki had a supremely disappointing rookie year and everyone was screaming bust and tearing Don Nelson a new one.

Andrew Bynum started off real, real slow, but made the All-star team at 24 and then his knee gave out.


Sure, Wiseman could be the next Kwame Brown or Darko Milicic, but this is the risk in choosing really raw prospects.

[DCZards]

Even if Golden St still has every intention of trying to put together a championship team around Curry, Thompson, and Green, their front office should be very aware that this may be the end of the road and they need to be thinking about what comes next. Dumping every single asset (Wiseman, the Minny pick, and whatever other picks) that would help them prepare for life after Curry and Thompson into a trade for Bradley Beal is about as desperate and as irresponsible of a decision as they could make (especially given they'll already lose their 1st rd pick in 2024 or 2025 to Memphis) given the makeup of their roster.

Totally agree with this. The Warriors have won 3 NBA championships in the last 6 years so I don’t think they are as desperate to win another one as some here seem to suggest.

It’s also pretty obvious that the Warriors (and most others in and around the NBA) have a higher regard for Wiseman and his potential to someday be a top NBA player than many on this board do.

I don’t see GSW mortgaging the future for Beal. I expect them to hang on to Wiseman and those picks...and look forward to having a nice core of young and veteran players when Klay returns.

Bruh i gotta call bs because you damn well know you've taken the positive outlook on nearly every csingle player since you've been on this board. We can find optimism & you preaching patience on posts for Pecherov, Vesely, Singleton all the way up through the years to Schofield and Robinson. Congrats on getting one right lol

Most young guys stinking up the joint don’t become stars though.

Yup...you got me right. I'm an optimist who will always preach patience. That mindset has served me well in my own life. But I've never failed to admit when I've been wrong.

I was never really much of a fan of Pecherov or Vesley (the record will show that I wanted Kawhi because of his D) so you're wrong about me there. (But I'll admit to being hopeful about Jan after the Zards drafted him.) And my support of Singleton was lukewarm.

But I've often been right about draft picks...I won't bring up Beal vs. MKG or how I told you Jalen Brunson was an NBA player after you insisted he wasn't.

[dckingsfan]

And then there are the colossal elephant in the room mistakes. Namely one GM named Ernie Grunfeld.

[NatP4]

A lot of reports regarding Miami’s interest in Beal. Ready to make an offer apparently.

Achiuwa, Herro, Robinson+picks seems like the most realistic deal at this point. Very meh

[nate33]

A lot of reports regarding Miami’s interest in Beal. Ready to make an offer apparently.

Achiuwa, Herro, Robinson+picks seems like the most realistic deal at this point. Very meh

If we can flip Robinson for another fairly high pick, it gets interesting. Robinson should have really good value given his tiny contract size and RFA rights. Would New Orleans give us their 2021 1st plus our 2021 2nd pick that they have? So our ultimate haul would be:

Herro
Achiuwa
New Orleans 2021 1st
Washington 2021 2nd
Miami 2024 pick swap (unlikely)
Miami 2025 1st
Miami 2026 pick swap
Miami 2027 1st

I'll reiterate that my preference is to keep Beal. If he would agree to an extension, or simply opt in on his final year, I'd gladly take him off the market.

[dlts20]

Westbrook might go crazy for asking to leave Houston to join Brooks and Beal for a middle ec playoff seed in his mind to Beal and Brooks Being gone and us starting another rebuild. Might as well have kept Wall. With every trade being mentioned, pretty much every guy needs a true PG and idk if Russ can be that

[prime1time]

Why do we want Duncan Robinson? We already have Matthews and Bertans along with Advija and Hachimura. If anything it should be a 3 team trade where Robinson gets flipped somewhere else and we get back more first round picks. Tbh, I'm not really feeling the Heat. I don't believe in Herro and Achiuwa doesn't seem special. I'd prefer a trade to OKC or New Orleans where we get a massive haul of picks.

[prime1time]

At the same time, I think it's way too early to think about trading Beal. Like we are only 11 games into the season. I'd be shocked if Beal gets moved before the offseason. A lot has to happen before now and then, including the firing of Scott Brooks. Got to let this play out.

[payitforward]

Totally agree with this. The Warriors have won 3 NBA championships in the last 6 years so I don’t think they are as desperate to win another one as some here seem to suggest.

It’s also pretty obvious that the Warriors (and most others in and around the NBA) have a higher regard for Wiseman and his potential to someday be a top NBA player than many on this board do.

I don’t see GSW mortgaging the future for Beal. I expect them to hang on to Wiseman and those picks...and look forward to having a nice core of young and veteran players when Klay returns.

Bruh i gotta call bs because you damn well know you've taken the positive outlook on nearly every csingle player since you've been on this board. We can find optimism & you preaching patience on posts for Pecherov, Vesely, Singleton all the way up through the years to Schofield and Robinson. Congrats on getting one right lol

Most young guys stinking up the joint don’t become stars though.

Yup...you got me right. I'm an optimist who will always preach patience. That mindset has served me well in my own life. But I've never failed to admit when I've been wrong.

I was never really much of a fan of Pecherov or Vesley (the record will show that I wanted Kawhi because of his D) so you're wrong about me there. (But I'll admit to being hopeful about Jan after the Zards drafted him.) And my support of Singleton was lukewarm.

But I've often been right about draft picks...I won't bring up Beal vs. MKG or how I told you Jalen Brunson was an NBA player after you insisted he wasn't.

This & associated posts are extremely funny! & I'm sure I can be found wrong as often as anyone else -- both wrongly positive & wrongly negative, depending on the player.

Suppose you simply flipped a coin for every drafted player. If it came up heads you maintained stoutly that he was going to be good, & if it came up tails you did the opposite.

In that case obviously the result is random. But, here's the thing -- you'd be right 50% of the time!

Hence, to be really good at this stuff, you have to be right more than 50% of the time -- a lot more to tell the truth!

I don't think it'd be hard to demonstrate that most everyone here, me included, is wrong often enough that we'd be fools to make very strong claims. & one big reason for that is how much chance is inherent in the way things turn out.

I said "me included," & I meant it. But, I also meant Dat included, Zards included, nate included, Ruzious included, doc included etc. etc. etc. You too, even if your name isn't in that little list.

[payitforward]

Why do we want Duncan Robinson? We already have Matthews and Bertans along with Advija and Hachimura. If anything it should be a 3 team trade where Robinson gets flipped somewhere else and we get back more first round picks. Tbh, I'm not really feeling the Heat. I don't believe in Herro and Achiuwa doesn't seem special. I'd prefer a trade to OKC or New Orleans where we get a massive haul of picks.

At the same time, I think it's way too early to think about trading Beal. Like we are only 11 games into the season. I'd be shocked if Beal gets moved before the offseason. A lot has to happen before now and then, including the firing of Scott Brooks. Got to let this play out.

I'm with prime on both these posts. Let it play out a while, & if we do trade Brad -- let's get the maximum number of picks.

(note tho that nate has said "flip robinson to a 3d team" -- as prime suggests)

[nate33]

Why do we want Duncan Robinson? We already have Matthews and Bertans along with Advija and Hachimura. If anything it should be a 3 team trade where Robinson gets flipped somewhere else and we get back more first round picks. Tbh, I'm not really feeling the Heat. I don't believe in Herro and Achiuwa doesn't seem special. I'd prefer a trade to OKC or New Orleans where we get a massive haul of picks.

New Orleans has a bunch of really crappy late picks.

OKC would be interesting, but I don't know if they're ready to make a win now move just yet. They presumably want to tank at least one season and get a high draft pick before they start cashing in on their trove of picks.

I agree that we don't need Robinson. We should definitely flip him somewhere else as part of any Miami deal.

[Dat2U]

Why do we want Duncan Robinson? We already have Matthews and Bertans along with Advija and Hachimura. If anything it should be a 3 team trade where Robinson gets flipped somewhere else and we get back more first round picks. Tbh, I'm not really feeling the Heat. I don't believe in Herro and Achiuwa doesn't seem special. I'd prefer a trade to OKC or New Orleans where we get a massive haul of picks.

New Orleans has a bunch of really crappy late picks.

OKC would be interesting, but I don't know if they're ready to make a win now move just yet. They presumably want to tank at least one season and get a high draft pick before they start cashing in on their trove of picks.

I agree that we don't need Robinson. We should definitely flip him somewhere else as part of any Miami deal.

Why do we not want Duncan Robinson? Not young enough? Not high enough upside. I can think of 29 teams outside of Miami that could use a shooter like him but he's not good enough for a Wizards rebuild? Did we need to ensure Troy Brown had enough minutes & shots?

[nate33]

Why do we want Duncan Robinson? We already have Matthews and Bertans along with Advija and Hachimura. If anything it should be a 3 team trade where Robinson gets flipped somewhere else and we get back more first round picks. Tbh, I'm not really feeling the Heat. I don't believe in Herro and Achiuwa doesn't seem special. I'd prefer a trade to OKC or New Orleans where we get a massive haul of picks.

New Orleans has a bunch of really crappy late picks.

OKC would be interesting, but I don't know if they're ready to make a win now move just yet. They presumably want to tank at least one season and get a high draft pick before they start cashing in on their trove of picks.

I agree that we don't need Robinson. We should definitely flip him somewhere else as part of any Miami deal.

Why do we not want Duncan Robinson? Not young enough? Not high enough upside. I can think of 29 teams outside of Miami that could use a shooter like him but he's not good enough for a Wizards rebuild? Did we need to ensure Troy Brown had enough minutes & shots?

Robinson is up for free agency this summer. He is going to get a market value deal. Market value is determined by the team that needs him most. That team is not us because we already have two guys that do what Robinson does in Bertans and Matthews. So, if we keep him, we will end up paying more than what he is worth (to us).

We would be better off trading him for a player that fits our needs better, or for a pick that we can use to draft a player that fits our needs better.

[Dat2U]

New Orleans has a bunch of really crappy late picks.

OKC would be interesting, but I don't know if they're ready to make a win now move just yet. They presumably want to tank at least one season and get a high draft pick before they start cashing in on their trove of picks.

I agree that we don't need Robinson. We should definitely flip him somewhere else as part of any Miami deal.

Why do we not want Duncan Robinson? Not young enough? Not high enough upside. I can think of 29 teams outside of Miami that could use a shooter like him but he's not good enough for a Wizards rebuild? Did we need to ensure Troy Brown had enough minutes & shots?

Robinson is up for free agency this summer. He is going to get a market value deal. Market value is determined by the team that needs him most. That team is not us because we already have two guys that do what Robinson does in Bertans and Matthews. So, if we keep him, we will end up paying more than what he is worth (to us).

We would be better off trading him for a player that fits our needs better, or for a pick that we can use to draft a player that fits our needs better.

Nate, I'm surprised your not a fan of adding more white boys to the roster that can shoot.

[nate33]

[Nate, I'm surprised your not a fan of adding more white boys to the roster that can shoot.

C'mon Dat2U, politics aside, you should know by now that, if anything, I'm prejudiced AGAINST white basketball players. My default stance is that white players get overrated. Given two players with equivalent on-court value, one white and one black, teams would rather have the white player because they're more likely to draw in rich white fans. (I think that bias is lessening of late as the NBA is less reliant on a white fan base than it used to be, and Millennial and Gen Z white fans are less prejudiced and less likely to like a player just because he is white.)

All that said, my resistance to adding Duncan Robinson is purely based on his redundant skill set. I like shooters on the roster because I'm a big believer that shooting matters even more than the box score tells you because shooting provided spacing, which makes life easier for teammates. But I also think that you can only keep one one-dimensional shooter on the floor at a time. You can hide one guy defensively, but once you have 2 or three bad wing defenders out there, there are cascading failures for the team's defense.

We have our one-dimensional shooter in Bertans (and another possibly in Mathews). I'd be fine with acquiring Robinson and then trading Bertans, but we don't need both. And at the moment, Robinson has much higher trade value because his small contract can be absorbed by anyone.

[pcbothwel]

That’s not really the question though. The questions are more like: does he have good hands? Is he physical? Does he have a motor? Does he have good understanding of defensive schemes/concepts? Does he have a good understanding of offensive spacing and good shots vs bad shots? Does he have good vision/natural playmaking ability? Does he have the “it” factor or competitiveness? Does he play unselfishly for the win or for personal success?

You can read as many articles or watch YouTube highlight videos, but that doesn’t compare to watching actual full games. The Warriors play basically every single game on National TV. Wiseman has serious shortcomings. He is borderline unplayable. There is a reason that non casual Warrior fans are already debating bust/no bust.

Yes he’s 19, he didn’t play college basketball because he was suspended. How many players develop feel for the game in college basketball? How many unplayable rookies with massively negative on/off numbers, go on to be “stars”

Marvin Bagley, Mo Bamba, Jaxson Hayes, Marquess Chris all had the physical tools. None of them are NBA players.

It's been 12 games.

Just to show you there is hope:

Jermaine O'Neal barely got off the bench for his first 4 seasons in Portland and he ended up becoming a perennial All-star in the NBA.

Tony Parker had plenty of doubters, including Popovich, and San Antonio came really close to replacing him at different points.

Dirk Nowitzki had a supremely disappointing rookie year and everyone was screaming bust and tearing Don Nelson a new one.

Andrew Bynum started off real, real slow, but made the All-star team at 24 and then his knee gave out.

Sure, Wiseman could be the next Kwame Brown or Darko Milicic, but this is the risk in choosing really raw prospects.

Jermaine O'Neal was a thoroughly overrated player.

That said, Wiseman doesnt project to be Kwame or Darko. He looks like he'll play 10-12 year in the league, but so did Hassan Whiteside.
Wiseman has poor hands, awareness, and physicality ... and that limits his ceiling and provides zero surplus on a 4/40M contract.

I'd say he looks quite similar to DeAndre Ayton, the last Generational Freak Center that was a "Clear Number 1 pick"
How is that working out? No personal issues with drugs, no injuries, no attitude issues... Just plain ole Mediocrity.

Ayton is now in his 3rd year of a an identical 4/40M contract and has provided zero surplus over other Centers that make the same or less.
Favors, Whiteside, Holmes, Zubac, Brook Lopez, Our own Thomas Bryant... all clearly better players that are routinely available.

Jarrett Allen has CLEARLY been a better player than Ayton at the same age and was just traded for a late 1st in 2022.

In two years Wiseman will be in the middle of his 3rd year and MIGHT be an average starting Center in the NBA... while Curry & Klay while be turning 35 & 33 on a quarter Billion dollar GSW roster scratching to not miss the playoffs for a 4th straight year.

I dont think you, and others, truly realize how bad the Warriors situation is. Andrew Wiggins isnt even their worst contract on the roster. Assuming Klay actually comes back to be a bench player/low end starter, then he might take that mantle... But in the meantime, Draymond Green has continued his precipitous fall off a cliff and their appears to be no end in sight.

Over the next 3 years, GSW will be paying 90-100M in salary EVERY YEAR in negative value contracts. That is unheard of.

Unless a clear homerun package is offered, the Wiz should not bail them out in any way.

[SA37]

Jermaine O'Neal was a thoroughly overrated player.

Apparently not man people agreed: 6x All-star, 3x All-NBA selection, finished in the top-10 in blocks 6x (top-5 in blocks 4x)... and then his body broke down.

I dont think you, and others, truly realize how bad the Warriors situation is. Andrew Wiggins isnt even their worst contract on the roster. Assuming Klay actually comes back to be a bench player/low end starter, then he might take that mantle... But in the meantime, Draymond Green has continued his precipitous fall off a cliff and their appears to be no end in sight.

Over the next 3 years, GSW will be paying 90-100M in salary EVERY YEAR in negative value contracts. That is unheard of.

Unless a clear homerun package is offered, the Wiz should not bail them out in any way.

[payitforward]

Why do we want Duncan Robinson? We already have Matthews and Bertans along with Advija and Hachimura. If anything it should be a 3 team trade where Robinson gets flipped somewhere else and we get back more first round picks. Tbh, I'm not really feeling the Heat. I don't believe in Herro and Achiuwa doesn't seem special. I'd prefer a trade to OKC or New Orleans where we get a massive haul of picks.

New Orleans has a bunch of really crappy late picks.

OKC would be interesting, but I don't know if they're ready to make a win now move just yet. They presumably want to tank at least one season and get a high draft pick before they start cashing in on their trove of picks.

I agree that we don't need Robinson. We should definitely flip him somewhere else as part of any Miami deal.

Why do we not want Duncan Robinson? Not young enough? Not high enough upside. I can think of 29 teams outside of Miami that could use a shooter like him but he's not good enough for a Wizards rebuild? Did we need to ensure Troy Brown had enough minutes & shots?

I was wondering the same thing myself -- Robinson is cheap & good. & his best position is the 2. Given that we're trading Beal, I don't see any reason we wouldn't keep him. Certainly, I wouldn't feel compelled to trade him right away, as he looks like a player who will be worth more not less within say a year.

I also don't see how Avdija, Bertans or Hachimura are relevant to the question. Or Troy Brown for that matter....

We're a rebuilding team (certainly if we trade Beal!); I wouldn't be against having Mathews & Duncan Robinson as our main rotation at the 2 for a while....

[queridiculo]

A lot of reports regarding Miami’s interest in Beal. Ready to make an offer apparently.

Achiuwa, Herro, Robinson+picks seems like the most realistic deal at this point. Very meh

Yeah, the Heat don't have anything I want, and the players they are willing to make available are not guys I'd built a team around.

Miami is one of the many teams in the wishful thinking category, they do not have the assets.

[nate33]

New Orleans has a bunch of really crappy late picks.

OKC would be interesting, but I don't know if they're ready to make a win now move just yet. They presumably want to tank at least one season and get a high draft pick before they start cashing in on their trove of picks.

I agree that we don't need Robinson. We should definitely flip him somewhere else as part of any Miami deal.

Why do we not want Duncan Robinson? Not young enough? Not high enough upside. I can think of 29 teams outside of Miami that could use a shooter like him but he's not good enough for a Wizards rebuild? Did we need to ensure Troy Brown had enough minutes & shots?

I was wondering the same thing myself -- Robinson is cheap & good. & his best position is the 2. Given that we're trading Beal, I don't see any reason we wouldn't keep him. Certainly, I wouldn't feel compelled to trade him right away, as he looks like a player who will be worth more not less within say a year.

I also don't see how Avdija, Bertans or Hachimura are relevant to the question. Or Troy Brown for that matter....

We're a rebuilding team (certainly if we trade Beal!); I wouldn't be against having Mathews & Duncan Robinson as our main rotation at the 2 for a while....

Robinson is cheap and good this year. Next year he will be expensive and good.

You were opposed to the team spending $13M a year to lock up a 27-year-old role player like Bertans. Why in the world would you think it's a good idea to do the same thing again? Only this time, it'll probably be more like $16M a year, and the team, without Beal will be even further from contention.

After trading Beal, this team will not be in position to be paying full price for veteran role players.