Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIX

[The Consiglieri]

It would be worth including a future 1st, if dumping Wall can get us in the running for Antetokounmpo. Pairing him with Beal would be the ultimate goal to build a legitimate contender in DC.

There’s like -273 degrees/absolute zero chance we’d be in the running for giannis. -273.

[The Consiglieri]

The answer here is obvious: do nothing.

If John has a reasonable team of advisors, as I'm sure he does, conversation with them & also a little time will make him see that he can do nothing by being angry except ruin his career.

For that matter, by pushing this conflict from his side, Tommy can do nothing but ruin his career.

All this is obvious. If John & Tom can't see it on their own, then it's Ted's job to make them see it.

Let me put that a little more strongly: it was Ted's job to make sure nothing like this happened. The single best way for him to solve it now would be to tell both of them that this conflict is entirely his fault. Defective leadership on his part. & he doesn't want them to suffer for it. He doesn't want it to be his fault that John's career is ruined and/or that Tommy's is.

"Tell me, guys, what can I do to make up for this mistake on my part?"

Every time either of them changes the ground of the conversation, bring it right back to that. Be wrong, over & over. Don't hesitate or excuse. Pretty soon, they'll each start talking about where they went wrong in this. Don't accept that: "no, no -- it's on me; none of this would have happened if I'd had my eye on the ball."

Is it 100% that this will work? No, of course not -- but, I'd say the odds are good. & the reason they are good is that it's the truth: this problem is entirely on Ted Leonsis.

+1000 on the general sentiment. I don't care about the approach though. I just would ignore the demands, and if he makes it a bigger deal sit and possibly suspend. He signed the contract that made him un-tradable, I'm not breaking a rebuild because of his feelings. It's ridiculous.

[The Consiglieri]

Well, I'm not giving a 2021 1st for Wall period. So if that's what it takes, I'm telling him to stay home for the season. Realistically speaking, if we are struggling at the beginning of the season I think we need to trade Beal and tank the season. This is a deep draft class and it would be a great time to start building for the future.

Exactly. You don’t give up future picks in much better and deeper draft classes because a player could become a negative story. Who gives a ——? I can tell you Beal doesn’t, he was free and easy about "everyone eats" when Wall was out w/a different injury and he knew full well how much that would stick in his craw. There’s zero chance I’d add another asset. Play, Sit or if necessary suspend. Who cares what reporters think? They think news cycles matter more than future 1sts or other young prospects! ---- no! That’s clinically insane. This team has been nothing but bad stories for four decades. Hell 10 years ago we had guys threatening each other over gambling debts from card games w/guns. The Wall story is weak sauce nonsense AND NOTHING of value should be traded to kill a freaking news cycle or even multiple news cycles. It’s absurd. We're trying to build something here. We shouldn't tear it down just to get someone to shut up who doesn't matter long term in the first place. Play, sit, or suspend, simple as that. No trade, unless we win it (and zero chance of that happening).

[The Consiglieri]

:lol: There is no value in trading Wall. Look at what the beat writers say here of other teams. I am not giving up a 2021 1st round pick or a 2022 1st round pick AT ALL.

[/quote]


How I've felt all along. These kinds of situations terrify me because it engages "stupid owner syndrome" (where an owner gets involved, usually in a very bad way, typically reacting to what idiot rich friends, and the media and fans are doing and saying), and it engages 'stupid homer fan syndrome" and fans end up contemplating clearly insane moves simply because of a news cycle. Remember this is how we ended up trading Chris Freaking Webber for Mitch Richmond's Corpse. Giving a damn about a bad news cycle. That's it. Meanwhile the Kings built the second best team in the league of the late nineties/early aughts, and we went straight back into the trash heap as per usual.

It's real simple, to deal Wall, you have to include a massive sweetener unless you take on an even stupider contract (at this point, it's basically Westbrook and Klay Thompson), so you can't trade Wall. He wanted the big money, once you get the big money, if you suck or your injured, you become an untraceable commodity. You can put owners/GM's in a vice w/your demands, but as long as the F.O. aren't idiots, they can simply ignore you. That's what needs to be done. The next few years you have naturally better drafts, along w/the infusion of high school talent in '22 or '23 or thereabouts as well, there is literally zero chance we should be trading anyway any futures, period. Our team is horrific, and it could be even worse if Beal decides he's had enough. With Wall and Beal this wasn't a good team, w/Wall post-injury it's almost certain the team will be worse, at least for a year or two as they try and gel with the kids before we can finally move on from Wall when his deal is up. During this interregnum we shouldn't consider any trades of Wall or any other asset that require us to give us future 1sts period. It's FO malpractice to do so, and honestly it would be a deal breaker for me as a fan. The Redskins have already pushed me beyond the edge, similar stupidity from the Wiz and I'd just move on and focus more on soccer and other sports and ignore pro basketball entirely.

[doclinkin]

I still think Wall is going to shut some people up. Raise his trade value. And come out a dangerous weapon for the team. THEN try to leverage a trade, with at least a couple suitors. John usually is honest and vocal about his feelings, even beyond his own best interest, the fact that he is currently "no comment no comment" suggests he would like to be done, but is going to say whatever he has to say with his play. The fact that he is point blank honest means I take him at his word when he says he feels like this is the first time he has been truly healthy in years and can play better defense, smarter shots, and be better than he was in the past. Also in the past many of his turnovers were from offensive charges, if he has lost a half notch of acceleration on his plant foot, then he is less likely to try that avenue of attack, and can play crafiter with his change of speed game. We will see if two years of advanced study, watching and talking with coaches and sitting in the film room and watchign the game change a bit in front of him, we will if that has had an effect on how he plays. I think so, to the positive. If his health holds up, then the renewed John Wall will attract offers from teams who want him and can incentivize a trade instead of the other way around. And maybe once he is playing with this crew, you never know, maybe this proves to be the better situation for him as well.

[NatP4]

Pistons called to explore a Griffin-Wall deal. I’m assuming they asked for a 1st round pick, or multiple 1sts ontop of that.

[nate33]

Pistons called to explore a Griffin-Wall deal. I’m assuming they asked for a 1st round pick, or multiple 1sts ontop of that.

Here's the link:

Read on Twitter

The only way it would make sense is if the trade also incorporated a swap of Killian Hayes and one of Avdija or Hachimura. I absolutely would not include any future picks.

[Ruzious]

I still think Wall is going to shut some people up. Raise his trade value. And come out a dangerous weapon for the team. THEN try to leverage a trade, with at least a couple suitors. John usually is honest and vocal about his feelings, even beyond his own best interest, the fact that he is currently "no comment no comment" suggests he would like to be done, but is going to say whatever he has to say with his play. The fact that he is point blank honest means I take him at his word when he says he feels like this is the first time he has been truly healthy in years and can play better defense, smarter shots, and be better than he was in the past. Also in the past many of his turnovers were from offensive charges, if he has lost a half notch of acceleration on his plant foot, then he is less likely to try that avenue of attack, and can play crafiter with his change of speed game. We will see if two years of advanced study, watching and talking with coaches and sitting in the film room and watchign the game change a bit in front of him, we will if that has had an effect on how he plays. I think so, to the positive. If his health holds up, then the renewed John Wall will attract offers from teams who want him and can incentivize a trade instead of the other way around. And maybe once he is playing with this crew, you never know, maybe this proves to be the better situation for him as well.

I've been tough on him at times, but I do believe the hard work will pay off, and we'll see Wall somewhat reinvented - though still a player who penetrates and dishes about as well as anyone in the game - just not a great finisher. It's important to me to see him enjoy the game again.

[nate33]

Spoiler:

I still think Wall is going to shut some people up. Raise his trade value. And come out a dangerous weapon for the team. THEN try to leverage a trade, with at least a couple suitors. John usually is honest and vocal about his feelings, even beyond his own best interest, the fact that he is currently "no comment no comment" suggests he would like to be done, but is going to say whatever he has to say with his play. The fact that he is point blank honest means I take him at his word when he says he feels like this is the first time he has been truly healthy in years and can play better defense, smarter shots, and be better than he was in the past. Also in the past many of his turnovers were from offensive charges, if he has lost a half notch of acceleration on his plant foot, then he is less likely to try that avenue of attack, and can play crafiter with his change of speed game. We will see if two years of advanced study, watching and talking with coaches and sitting in the film room and watchign the game change a bit in front of him, we will if that has had an effect on how he plays. I think so, to the positive. If his health holds up, then the renewed John Wall will attract offers from teams who want him and can incentivize a trade instead of the other way around. And maybe once he is playing with this crew, you never know, maybe this proves to be the better situation for him as well.

I've been tough on him at times, but I do believe the hard work will pay off, and we'll see Wall somewhat reinvented - though still a player who penetrates and dishes about as well as anyone in the game - just not a great finisher. It's important to me to see him enjoy the game again.

I posted this in the John Wall Appreciation thread back in November of 2019, 6 games into the season. I think it gives us an idea of what Wall can do with stretch bigs helping to spread the floor:

While arguing about John Wall on another thread, I actually took a closer look at his stats so far, and there is a lot to be encouraged about.

Yes, his overall ORtg and TS% are hovering around career lows (103 and .498 respectively) but that's almost exclusively due to the abysmal shooting from 3-point range. He has hit just 3 of 25 3-pointers for a 3P% of just 12%. Other than that, he actually looks great.

First of all, he is getting to the rim at will. His percentage of shots at the rim has increased from 31% last year to a whopping 45% this year! I'm assuming some of that has to do with playing 5-out, but it's pretty obvious when you watch that whenever there's a switch, he can blow past the mismatch at will. And as an extra benefit from all this penetration, his FTr (FTA's per FG attempt) is way up from his career average of 35% to 48%! He is 2nd in the league (behind De'Aaron Fox) among non-centers is FT rate. His turnovers are way down too. His career TOV% is 17.3 but this year it's a career low (by a lot) 12.6.

Wall's only real weakness this year has been the uncharacteristically low 3P%. If he shot his career average 3P% this year, his overall TS% would be a career high 57%. If we assume he didn't break his jumper in the offseason and he regresses to his mean 3P%, he is likely to have his career best year, by a lot!

A snapshot of Wall's shot selection through 6 games this season:

[Ruzious]

Pistons called to explore a Griffin-Wall deal. I’m assuming they asked for a 1st round pick, or multiple 1sts ontop of that.

Here's the link:

Read on Twitter

The only way it would make sense is if the trade also incorporated a swap of Killian Hayes and one of Avdija or Hachimura. I absolutely would not include any future picks.

Hayes can play the 2 - though he'll want to be a ball dominant player. It might actually be good for him to learn to play off the ball. He's just 19, so I wouldn't pigeonhole him now as strictly a PG, and Wall could take some of the pressure off him.

As I said before, I think the Knicks make the most sense for Wall, while the Pistons are 2nd. But trading him to Detroit would almost be cruel. At least NY is a great basketball atmosphere. Detroit is in full blown rebuild mode. Heck, if we give them Wagner, he might start for them.

[nate33]

Hayes can play the 2 - though he'll want to be a ball dominant player. It might actually be good for him to learn to play off the ball. He's just 19, so I wouldn't pigeonhole him now as strictly a PG, and Wall could take some of the pressure off him.

I was talking about making the deal work for us. We can't have a team with Griffin, Hachimura, Avdija, Bertans and Bonga all vying for forward minutes, while at the same time having no starting-caliber PG. Incorporating an Advija for Hayes swap balances both rosters nicely.

[Ruzious]

Hayes can play the 2 - though he'll want to be a ball dominant player. It might actually be good for him to learn to play off the ball. He's just 19, so I wouldn't pigeonhole him now as strictly a PG, and Wall could take some of the pressure off him.

I was talking about making the deal work for us. We can't have a team with Griffin, Hachimura, Avdija, Bertans and Bonga all vying for forward minutes, while at the same time having no starting-caliber PG. Incorporating an Advija for Hayes swap balances both rosters nicely.

That would be nice - good call. And even better if we could than move Griffin for a more defensive-minded over-paid player.

[dckingsfan]

Hayes can play the 2 - though he'll want to be a ball dominant player. It might actually be good for him to learn to play off the ball. He's just 19, so I wouldn't pigeonhole him now as strictly a PG, and Wall could take some of the pressure off him.

I was talking about making the deal work for us. We can't have a team with Griffin, Hachimura, Avdija, Bertans and Bonga all vying for forward minutes, while at the same time having no starting-caliber PG. Incorporating an Advija for Hayes swap balances both rosters nicely.

First, I am in the do nothing camp. Having said this, what would you feel would be the best trade that helps both teams the most?

[nate33]

Hayes can play the 2 - though he'll want to be a ball dominant player. It might actually be good for him to learn to play off the ball. He's just 19, so I wouldn't pigeonhole him now as strictly a PG, and Wall could take some of the pressure off him.

I was talking about making the deal work for us. We can't have a team with Griffin, Hachimura, Avdija, Bertans and Bonga all vying for forward minutes, while at the same time having no starting-caliber PG. Incorporating an Advija for Hayes swap balances both rosters nicely.

First, I am in the do nothing camp. Having said this, what would you feel would be the best trade that helps both teams the most?

At this point, the only real option is to do nothing. I think most of the trades we've tossed around are not feasible at this moment in time without us throwing in additional assets. I think we need to play 20 games and demonstrate that Wall is still a real good player before any truly constructive trades are possible.

I gotta admit, a Detroit trade where we trade Wall + Advija for Hayes + Griffin is pretty intriguing. Better still if we can flip Griffin for, say, Aaron Gordon + Aminu.

[Dat2U]

I expect Wall to struggle at first. He may have a great first game but over the first few weeks I doubt he'll be a plus player. Two years is long time away from the speed of the NBA game. I think he would need a good 4-6 weeks before he would find a comfort zone.

Wall has historically started out his seasons poorly. I don't remember him jumping out the gate in October or November and playing really well. It would always be December or even January before you'd begin to see Wall at this best.

[NatP4]

No thanks on moving Avdija. I like him more than Rui as a prospect.

I would be interested in trades that involve Rui, simply because Bonga and Brown can take on bigger roles and we can really go all in on Avdija’s development. All three of those guys can play multiple positions.

Remember, Rui is already 22 years old this season.

If Detroit says Hayes+Griffin for Wall+Rui and a 2021 1st, I would strongly consider.

[NatP4]

Why would Detroit move on from Hayes before he ever touches the court? No idea

[nate33]

Why would Detroit move on from Hayes before he ever touches the court? No idea

My thinking is that they may not have drafted Hayes if they had John Wall on the roster and no Blake Griffin. In that scenario, Avdija might have seemed like a better prospect. (Likewise, for us, if Avdija was off the board and we didn't have Wall, Hayes would seem like a good pick.)

[nate33]

No thanks on moving Avdija. I like him more than Rui as a prospect.

I would be interested in trades that involve Rui, simply because Bonga and Brown can take on bigger roles and we can really go all in on Avdija’s development. All three of those guys can play multiple positions.

Remember, Rui is already 22 years old this season.

If Detroit says Hayes+Griffin for Wall+Rui and a 2021 1st, I would strongly consider.

I'm not trading a 2021 1st. The draft class is too strong.

[Ruzious]

And Detroit's roster is so bad that players like Wagner and Jerome Robinson could have real value for them and possibly start for them.