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2020 Draft - Part II

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Re: 2020 Draft - Part II 

Post#681 » by Rafael122 » Fri Nov 20, 2020 3:29 am

Apparently Dallas was offering 18, 31 and either a future pick or player to move up between 7-10 to get Haliburton.
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Re: 2020 Draft - Part II 

Post#682 » by doclinkin » Fri Nov 20, 2020 3:45 am

Rafael122 wrote:Apparently Dallas was offering 18, 31 and either a future pick or player to move up between 7-10 to get Haliburton.



Well there you go. That's the doc draft trifecta. Saddiq Bey and Xavier Tillman and a future pick. Plus at 37 Nate Hinton to go wild for the GoGo and earn his way up.
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Re: 2020 Draft - Part II 

Post#683 » by The Consiglieri » Fri Nov 20, 2020 6:41 am

doclinkin wrote:
Rafael122 wrote:Apparently Dallas was offering 18, 31 and either a future pick or player to move up between 7-10 to get Haliburton.



Well there you go. That's the doc draft trifecta. Saddiq Bey and Xavier Tillman and a future pick. Plus at 37 Nate Hinton to go wild for the GoGo and earn his way up.

Well worth noting, if the F.O. had Avidja in an elite and separate tier at the top of the draft (somewhere in that 2-5 area probably on their board) and they did (not to mention literally every other source I came across pretty much anywhere, I'm sure some people can find contrary ones, but in every one I pulled up he sat somewhere between 3 and 7, and the median was probably 4 or 5), then doing such a trade down would've never made sense.

One can quibble w/the eval. Are they making yet another Euro reach inside the top 10 or are they landing a steal? Time will tell. However, there seems to be pretty strong consensus that he was viewed by most teams and scouts as a top 5 or so prospect in the draft, and in the top tier. As such, you don't trade that pick for that compensation.

Again, as I say this, it's important to note what everyone forgets, usually within two years or less, and that's that nobody owns these rankings when they end up looking silly. For all the taunting of the Bears for their trade up for Trubisky and passing on Mahomes and Watson, everyone's board had Trubisky freaking #1. Everyone's. There may have been teams that had Mahomes or Watson ahead of them, but no draft insider anywhere reported as such, and none of the scouts I heard talking about the QB's said that. Trubisky was the #1 ranked QB draft. He just was. The Bears whiffed. It happens. It's gross, but the same thing was true about Vesely. It's not like he was ranked 19th, and we took him nearly 15 slots early. He was ranked inside the top 6 or 7 of every list I saw that year. Everybody missed on him too (other than this board and fans in general who always soft sell Euro's (and rack up plenty of hits in doing so historically)).

I just don't have a problem with taking him, if he was a top 5-6 guy on your board. That's sound process. The eval itself of him? that's the process that could be questioned. Should anyone really be taken that early when "shooting" is a problem? On this one hand is MKG, and my broken heart that he failed, and on this other hand is Kawhi, who figured it out. We'll see, but I understand the concerns and they are legit. I think what we're laying down the bet here upon is that he's deeply passionate for the game, plays super aggressive, and works his butt off, so if he can fix/improve simply through being a gym rat, and shooting 1500 shots everyday, whatever, he'll do that. Time's gonna tell, I'm alright with it, most of the guys people are pining on strike me as peripheral moves that won't move the needle, but rather just add some bench depth and improve that angle. This was not a draft that was likely to have many if any options that could provide transcendent players.
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Re: 2020 Draft - Part II 

Post#684 » by Meliorus » Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:52 pm


37:31-38:36

Here's a snippet back when Lillard got drafted. They bring in the advanced stats guy to talk about his incredible percentiles for shooting and pick and roll offense, tangible skills in the NBA. Not to mention his 40%+ shooting from 3 on high volume. When Thomas Robinson and Michael Kidd Gilchrist got drafted, it was all about high character and work ethic. Jay Bilas was quite lukewarm on the Lillard pick. Do you see the difference? Using the eye test and falling in love with the way a guy plays is the biggest trap a scout can make. Workouts provide 0 valuable information. I want to see your game stats vs peers.

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Re: 2020 Draft - Part II 

Post#685 » by NatP4 » Fri Nov 20, 2020 2:38 pm

I’d love to see what Avdija could've done in college basketball for a year.
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Re: 2020 Draft - Part II 

Post#686 » by nate33 » Fri Nov 20, 2020 2:49 pm

Rafael122 wrote:Apparently Dallas was offering 18, 31 and either a future pick or player to move up between 7-10 to get Haliburton.

I don't think I would have done it. #18 + #31 is a far cry from the #14 + #26 that we could have gotten from a hypothetical Boston trade. The estimated value of #18 + #31 doesn't come close to the value of #9 in Kevin Pelton's trade value chart.

Now, if that future pick was a 1st rounder, then it might get interesting. But Dallas doesn't have many tradeable 1sts IIRC. They gave them up in the Porzingis acquisition.
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Re: 2020 Draft - Part II 

Post#687 » by mhd » Fri Nov 20, 2020 3:39 pm

nate33 wrote:
Rafael122 wrote:Apparently Dallas was offering 18, 31 and either a future pick or player to move up between 7-10 to get Haliburton.

I don't think I would have done it. #18 + #31 is a far cry from the #14 + #26 that we could have gotten from a hypothetical Boston trade. The estimated value of #18 + #31 doesn't come close to the value of #9 in Kevin Pelton's trade value chart.

Now, if that future pick was a 1st rounder, then it might get interesting. But Dallas doesn't have many tradeable 1sts IIRC. They gave them up in the Porzingis acquisition.



Yeah, it was probably a future 2nd (the Knicks have two future Dallas firsts like you said). That's not enough. Better to stay at 9 and swing for the fences.
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Re: 2020 Draft - Part II 

Post#688 » by doclinkin » Fri Nov 20, 2020 3:59 pm

NatP4 wrote:I’d love to see what Avdija could've done in college basketball for a year.


I'd like to have seen what Saddiq Bey could do in Euro ball for the past 2 years.

There is a reason the NBA is the top league in the world, and why it is stocked primarily with NCAA talent. Chris Singleton was a star player for Barcelona. Kevin Seraphin as well. Here they couldn't hack it. Okay hacking they could do, the rest of it they couldn't.
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Re: 2020 Draft - Part II 

Post#689 » by NatP4 » Fri Nov 20, 2020 4:06 pm

doclinkin wrote:
NatP4 wrote:I’d love to see what Avdija could've done in college basketball for a year.


I'd like to have seen what Saddiq Bey could do in Euro ball for the past 2 years.

There is a reason the NBA is the top league in the world, and why it is stocked primarily with NCAA talent. Chris Singleton was a star player for Barcelona. Kevin Seraphin as well. Here they couldn't hack it. Okay hacking they could do, the rest of it they couldn't.


When was Singleton a “star for Barcelona”? He also played 3 full seasons at Florida State before being drafted. I don’t even see that he was a starting caliber player in Europe after 3 NCAA seasons and a NBA career (attempt).

Seraphin also played like 7 total games at less than 20 minutes per game in the euroleague before getting drafted and played in the French league at limited minutes before that.

Neither comparison makes sense at all. We would have to wait for Avdija to come play 4-5 seasons in the nba, then go back to euroleague in his prime and see what he does for this to make any sense
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Re: 2020 Draft - Part II 

Post#690 » by TGW » Fri Nov 20, 2020 4:13 pm

Man I can't wait until the season starts. As much **** as I give Shepherd, I actually like this pick. Avidja is going to shock people with his skillset, his IQ and toughness, and his willingness to defend. He's had his way with the kids his age (U20 group) and held his own against the older, seasoned vets of the Euroleague.

Not only will he be in the rotation early, but he will get starts this season.
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Re: 2020 Draft - Part II 

Post#691 » by doclinkin » Fri Nov 20, 2020 4:27 pm

NatP4 wrote:
doclinkin wrote:
NatP4 wrote:I’d love to see what Avdija could've done in college basketball for a year.


I'd like to have seen what Saddiq Bey could do in Euro ball for the past 2 years.

There is a reason the NBA is the top league in the world, and why it is stocked primarily with NCAA talent. Chris Singleton was a star player for Barcelona. Kevin Seraphin as well. Here they couldn't hack it. Okay hacking they could do, the rest of it they couldn't.


When was Singleton a “star for Barcelona”? He also played 3 full seasons at Florida State before being drafted. I don’t even see that he was a starting caliber player in Europe after 3 NCAA seasons and a NBA career (attempt).

Seraphin also played like 7 total games at less than 20 minutes per game in the euroleague before getting drafted and played in the French league at limited minutes before that.

Neither comparison makes sense at all. We would have to wait for Avdija to come play 4-5 seasons in the nba, then go back to euroleague in his prime and see what he does for this to make any sense


Panathanaikos as well for Singleton. He did play for Barca, had better years with the Athens squad. I Just recall looking at his Euro stats while checking on another player and wondered how in Hades SIngleton was suddenly shooting 48% from 3 (as he did for Barcelona). And Seraphin was posting per36 numbers of 20/10 in Barcelona with 2 assists!!!! That's big for him.

Yeah? You think the older wiser Seraphin and SIngleton would have posted better NBA stats now? Maybe we should bring them back?
:clown:

I'm not knocking Deni. I am saying to some extent overseas players can get a bit of shine to them because we don't see them in comparison with our local product so they end up with a different measuring stick. Vesely and Satoransky and La Bomba JC Navarro were all star players in Euroball, and were bench players here. We take for granted guys who are functional skilled useful NCAA talents in part because they blend in over here. I watch Euro ball. It is a different game. They allow fouls and hand checks and goaltending and the level of team play is way higher, especially on offense, passing, player movement, and all around play vs one skill specialists. They simply lack the level of athleticism we have in our game. Deni stands out in Euroball becasue he is a pretty good athlete along with having an advanced understanding of the game for his age. He will see that athleticism matched and tested and bested when he plays here. It will be good to see how he reacts to it.

Troy Brown would be a star in Euro ball. His game fits perfectly with what they do. That would be fun to see. Basically I'm agreeing with you, it would be interesting to have seen Deni in NCAA ball as well. (I think he might not have gone top 10 if so, because scouts like the 'mystery cow' and like going overseas to scout. But it is like collectible cards or whatever, you don't know what is going to be in the package, so you get even more excited about what it might be. You cannot compare them with other draft picks in face to face games).

I wish there was an exchange program or something.
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Re: 2020 Draft - Part II 

Post#692 » by payitforward » Fri Nov 20, 2020 5:22 pm

doclinkin wrote:
Rafael122 wrote:Apparently Dallas was offering 18, 31 and either a future pick or player to move up between 7-10 to get Haliburton.

Well there you go. That's the doc draft trifecta. Saddiq Bey and Xavier Tillman and a future pick. Plus at 37 Nate Hinton to go wild for the GoGo and earn his way up.

Or maybe make that Achiuwa @ 18 (make WD happy!)
Carey or Oturu @ 31
Buy #34 & #36 & use on Tillman & Tyler Bey
Trade #37 & Admiral for #49 & 58: pick Skylar Mays & Paul Reed.
Trade Wagner & Robinson for a Rd 2 pick next year.
Sign Nate Hinton undrafted -- give him $500K extra so he doesn't stay in Dallas.
Re-sign Bertans; sign Mathews to the regular roster;

3 unproductive players are gone.
5 rookies are added to the roster.
Net: +2
(2 other rookies get 2-way contracts)

PG: Wall, Ish, Brown
SG: Beal, Mathews, Mays*, Hinton*
SF: Bonga, Brown, Bey
PF: Rui, Bertans, Tillman, Reed
C: Bryant, Achiuwa, Carey (or Oturu)
* on 2-way contracts.

Still room to add someone for the MLE.
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Re: 2020 Draft - Part II 

Post#693 » by Ruzious » Fri Nov 20, 2020 5:42 pm

payitforward wrote:
doclinkin wrote:
Rafael122 wrote:Apparently Dallas was offering 18, 31 and either a future pick or player to move up between 7-10 to get Haliburton.

Well there you go. That's the doc draft trifecta. Saddiq Bey and Xavier Tillman and a future pick. Plus at 37 Nate Hinton to go wild for the GoGo and earn his way up.

Or maybe make that Achiuwa @ 18 (make WD happy!)
Carey or Oturu @ 31
Buy #34 & #36 & use on Tillman & Tyler Bey
Trade #37 & Admiral for #49 & 58: pick Skylar Mays & Paul Reed.
Trade Wagner & Robinson for a Rd 2 pick next year.
Sign Nate Hinton undrafted -- give him $500K extra so he doesn't stay in Dallas.
Re-sign Bertans; sign Mathews to the regular roster;

3 unproductive players are gone.
5 rookies are added to the roster.
Net: +2
(2 other rookies get 2-way contracts)

PG: Wall, Ish, Brown
SG: Beal, Mathews, Mays*, Hinton*
SF: Bonga, Brown, Bey
PF: Rui, Bertans, Tillman, Reed
C: Bryant, Achiuwa, Carey (or Oturu)
* on 2-way contracts.

Still room to add someone for the MLE.

Use the MLE, and you'll have 18 rotation players?
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Re: 2020 Draft - Part II 

Post#694 » by WizarDynasty » Fri Nov 20, 2020 5:47 pm

There is no point in thinking about what could have happen. Let's see Tommy brilliance. Deni is our Paul Pierce Clone with just a few changes to his body movements. Paul was not a very explosive guy but he excellent handles and size. Deni just needs to work on his back arch and he will be well on his way to having a very Paul Pierce type career here in DC. Paul was not a great free throw shooter his first year in college, but made dramatic improvements.
I see Wizards helping unlock Deni's stiff lower back and allow him the dynamic torso movement needed to adjust his shot against defensive pressure and still make shots off the dribble. Let's see where this goes.
Beal and Wall played amazingly well next to Paul Pierce.. the older version, now they have the young version.

Remember just because he is from Europe doesn't mean he has a european game. His size, and handles are very Paul Pierce like.
Build your team with five shooters using Paul Pierce Form deeply bent hips and lower back arch at same time. before rising into shot. Elbow not pointing to the ground! } Avdija=young Paul Pierce
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Re: 2020 Draft - Part II 

Post#695 » by wall_glizzy » Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:00 pm

payitforward wrote:Buy #34 & #36 & use on Tillman & Tyler Bey


Hey PIF, just wanted to make sure you saw this up-thread post that probably got lost in the shuffle yesterday viewtopic.php?f=35&t=2015127&p=86437638#p86437638

Have seen you mention what could have been in the 33-36 range a couple times now and just wanted to provide some context on how it was those picks got doled out.
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Re: 2020 Draft - Part II 

Post#696 » by WizarDynasty » Fri Nov 20, 2020 10:31 pm

payitforward wrote:
doclinkin wrote:
Rafael122 wrote:Apparently Dallas was offering 18, 31 and either a future pick or player to move up between 7-10 to get Haliburton.

Well there you go. That's the doc draft trifecta. Saddiq Bey and Xavier Tillman and a future pick. Plus at 37 Nate Hinton to go wild for the GoGo and earn his way up.

Or maybe make that Achiuwa @ 18 (make WD happy!)
Carey or Oturu @ 31
Buy #34 & #36 & use on Tillman & Tyler Bey
Trade #37 & Admiral for #49 & 58: pick Skylar Mays & Paul Reed.
Trade Wagner & Robinson for a Rd 2 pick next year.
Sign Nate Hinton undrafted -- give him $500K extra so he doesn't stay in Dallas.
Re-sign Bertans; sign Mathews to the regular roster;

3 unproductive players are gone.
5 rookies are added to the roster.
Net: +2
(2 other rookies get 2-way contracts)

PG: Wall, Ish, Brown
SG: Beal, Mathews, Mays*, Hinton*
SF: Bonga, Brown, Bey
PF: Rui, Bertans, Tillman, Reed
C: Bryant, Achiuwa, Carey (or Oturu)
* on 2-way contracts.

Still room to add someone for the MLE.


I am actually quite happy with Adijva. AGain, i think he has alot Paul Pierce intangibles that can't be taught. From his dribbling, and quick reads, his speed and strong body build, leadership on the court, and you can tell he is wise beyond his years, and he is humble.
I think we should just keep a picture of Paul Pierce in front of his locker.
Build your team with five shooters using Paul Pierce Form deeply bent hips and lower back arch at same time. before rising into shot. Elbow not pointing to the ground! } Avdija=young Paul Pierce
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Re: 2020 Draft - Part II 

Post#697 » by payitforward » Sun Nov 22, 2020 2:19 am

I posted the following in the "shep must go" thread -- it's mostly about our draft, so... puttin' that part of it here:

payitforward wrote:...The Avdija pick is a roll of the dice -- in a way it's rather like the picks of Edwards, Wiseman & Ball at the very top of the draft. You see brilliance, & you see some flaws too.

No one expected Deni to be there at #9. I would have taken him too. How could you not? The only other players worth consideration instead would have been Haliburton & (maybe) Hampton. I have no problem whatever with this pick.

How Sheppard handled the rest of the draft is another matter entirely. Here are the problems I see:

1. Notice that 8 of the last 15 picks in R1 were traded (something I've never seen). We needed to be part of that process: we absolutely needed one of those picks (esp. after screwing up last year's draft). Now... maybe there was no way. No way at all. But I don't think so. But if it was plain impossible, then...

2. ...Notice that 4 of the first 6 picks in R2 were also traded. We needed -- badly! -- to target one of those picks in order to come away with either Tillman or Bey.

3. Having failed in both those goals, we made a completely inane move: we traded our own #37 pick for the #53 pick, plus a Thunder R2 pick in... 2024 !! If the deal were all in this year's picks, I'd want #46 & #53 for #37. But, future assets trade at a discount -- & we got #53 plus what will likely be a low R2 pick... 4 years out! That is awful....

4. At least make the Thunder get you a mid-40's pick this year from another team, plus #53, if they want the deal. Draft Paul Reed or Nate Hinton or Grant Riller or Jahm'ius Ramsay or Skylar Mays or Kenyon Martin Jr. or Sam Merrill or Cassius Stanley -- plus Cassius Winston. Or buy the pick. 9 of the last 24 picks in the draft also changed hands!

Overall, what I see is lack of any overall intention. They took what they thought was the BPA at #9 -- no problem, might have gotten lucky, might not work out. I can't see passing on him. Then they traded down from 37 to 53 for not much in return & for no obvious reason. We need a 3d string PG, so they picked one at #53 (luckily he was there).

I don't get it. & that in a nutshell is my problem with Tommy -- I can't figure out what his intentions are, what his strategy is, what he's trying to accomplish.

Can you?
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Re: 2020 Draft - Part II 

Post#698 » by payitforward » Sun Nov 22, 2020 2:55 am

I should add that Deni falling to us means that in some sense we earn an "A." Now, all draft grades are meaningless at this point. But I'd find it impossible to criticize the team for picking Avdija.

It's the apparent lack of coherent intention that I just can't grok.
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Re: 2020 Draft - Part II 

Post#699 » by WallToWall » Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:37 am

payitforward wrote:I should add that Deni falling to us means that in some sense we earn an "A." Now, all draft grades are meaningless at this point. But I'd find it impossible to criticize the team for picking Avdija.

It's the apparent lack of coherent intention that I just can't grok.

Perhaps the intent is to pick the best available (highest upside?) regardless of position or need. In that light, the picks make sense.
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Re: 2020 Draft - Part II 

Post#700 » by payitforward » Mon Nov 23, 2020 1:16 am

WallToWall wrote:
payitforward wrote:I should add that Deni falling to us means that in some sense we earn an "A." Now, all draft grades are meaningless at this point. But I'd find it impossible to criticize the team for picking Avdija.

It's the apparent lack of coherent intention that I just can't grok.

Perhaps the intent is to pick the best available (highest upside?) regardless of position or need. In that light, the picks make sense.

You misunderstood me, I guess: I love the pick of Deni Avdija.

It's the rest of of the way we managed the draft that seems to lack any coherent intention.
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