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Deni Avdija

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Do you like this pick?

Yes
51
74%
No
11
16%
Don't care
7
10%
 
Total votes: 69

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Re: Deni Avdija 

Post#241 » by tontoz » Sat Nov 21, 2020 12:39 am

Bo jackson was 34 too if I remember right. What a freak athlete that guy was. Shame how his career ended on what looked like a routine tackle.

Theisman was 7. I stopped watching injuries in the NFL because of him. To this day when they show injury replays I just look down.
"bulky agile perimeter bone crunch pick setting draymond green" WizD
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Re: Deni Avdija 

Post#242 » by Dat2U » Sat Nov 21, 2020 1:23 am

nate33 wrote:
Dat2U wrote:The only real numbers to avoid on a jersey is "7" or any number that adds to 7 such as 34 (3+4=7). The "lucky number 7" is actually pretty unlucky with a higher risk of injury.

34 has been the number of some all time greats though:

Hakeem Olajuwon
Charles Barkley
Giannis Antentokounmpo
Shaquille O'Neal (at his peak with the Lakers)
Paul Pierce
Ray Allen
Charles Oakley


Were talking a slight increase in risk here. Nothing is ever set in stone. Just higher odds. A player might slightly do better in one number over the other or worse.
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Re: Deni Avdija 

Post#243 » by Dat2U » Sat Nov 21, 2020 1:41 am

Deni's upside is Kukoc if he successfully works out the kinks in his jumper. You can tell he's smart, he really moves like a wing and has a high skill level for a 6-9 guy. If he can truly play the wing in the NBA defensively and make open shots then he's a steal.

Reading more into him, he's a really smart kid. He John Wall have similar abilities to pick up things very fast. Very analytical. Perceptive. Not sure I see leadership qualities but a guy that will figure out his role early in time and will learn to make an impact.

He is definitely not Vesely once you go beyond the foreign tweener with a shaky jumper thing.
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Re: Deni Avdija 

Post#244 » by WizarDynasty » Sat Nov 21, 2020 1:56 am

Dat2U wrote:Deni's upside is Kukoc if he successfully works out the kinks in his jumper. You can tell he's smart, he really moves like a wing and has a high skill level for a 6-9 guy. If he can truly play the wing in the NBA defensively and make open shots then he's a steal.

Reading more into him, he's a really smart kid. He John Wall have similar abilities to pick up things very fast. Very analytical. Perceptive. Not sure I see leadership qualities but a guy that will figure out his role early in time and will learn to make an impact.

He is definitely not Vesely once you go beyond the foreign tweener with a shaky jumper thing.


No Deni has Kyrie like handles with his right hand, and he is getting there with his left. I doubt he can shoot it with his left the way that Kyrie can but he has kyrie's hip bend while dribbling.
That's unique to this generation. His ceiling is way above Kukoc. Deni has the ability to be the Kyrie of small forwards with his handles, and he has stop and go acceleration. He is an American Game, not a european game.
Build your team with five shooters using Paul Pierce Form deeply bent hips and lower back arch at same time. before rising into shot. Elbow not pointing to the ground! } Avdija=young Paul Pierce
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Re: Deni Avdija 

Post#245 » by Dat2U » Sat Nov 21, 2020 2:02 am

WizarDynasty wrote:
Dat2U wrote:Deni's upside is Kukoc if he successfully works out the kinks in his jumper. You can tell he's smart, he really moves like a wing and has a high skill level for a 6-9 guy. If he can truly play the wing in the NBA defensively and make open shots then he's a steal.

Reading more into him, he's a really smart kid. He John Wall have similar abilities to pick up things very fast. Very analytical. Perceptive. Not sure I see leadership qualities but a guy that will figure out his role early in time and will learn to make an impact.

He is definitely not Vesely once you go beyond the foreign tweener with a shaky jumper thing.


No Deni has Kyrie like handles with his right hand. His ceiling is way above Kukoc. Deni has the ability to be the Kyrie of small forwards with his handles, and he has stop and go acceleration. He is an American Game, not a european game.


Kyrie has arguably the best handles in the game. Deni's handles are good for a SF and even better for a 6-9 guy but not elite in comparison to the very best wings/guards in the league. His ceiling is as a secondary ballhandler, not a primary one like Kyrie or Luka.
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Re: Deni Avdija 

Post#246 » by Frichuela » Sat Nov 21, 2020 2:07 am

Dat2U wrote:Deni's upside is Kukoc if he successfully works out the kinks in his jumper. You can tell he's smart, he really moves like a wing and has a high skill level for a 6-9 guy. If he can truly play the wing in the NBA defensively and make open shots then he's a steal.

Reading more into him, he's a really smart kid. He John Wall have similar abilities to pick up things very fast. Very analytical. Perceptive. Not sure I see leadership qualities but a guy that will figure out his role early in time and will learn to make an impact.

He is definitely not Vesely once you go beyond the foreign tweener with a shaky jumper thing.


If Deni can be 50% of peak Kukoc I guarantee we’ll all be very happy indeed. Kukoc at his prime was superb!
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Re: Deni Avdija 

Post#247 » by WizarDynasty » Sat Nov 21, 2020 2:09 am

Dat2U wrote:
WizarDynasty wrote:
Dat2U wrote:Deni's upside is Kukoc if he successfully works out the kinks in his jumper. You can tell he's smart, he really moves like a wing and has a high skill level for a 6-9 guy. If he can truly play the wing in the NBA defensively and make open shots then he's a steal.

Reading more into him, he's a really smart kid. He John Wall have similar abilities to pick up things very fast. Very analytical. Perceptive. Not sure I see leadership qualities but a guy that will figure out his role early in time and will learn to make an impact.

He is definitely not Vesely once you go beyond the foreign tweener with a shaky jumper thing.


No Deni has Kyrie like handles with his right hand. His ceiling is way above Kukoc. Deni has the ability to be the Kyrie of small forwards with his handles, and he has stop and go acceleration. He is an American Game, not a european game.


Kyrie has arguably the best handles in the game. Deni's handles are good for a SF and even better for a 6-9 guy but not elite in comparison to the very best wings/guards in the league. His ceiling is as a secondary ballhandler, not a primary one like Kyrie or Luka.

Toni Kukoc had no handles. Toni was long and rangy. Deni compact force and quickness. Toni had no hip bend, Deni has elite hip bend. Just not really comparable. Toni kukoc was more like Paul Gasol.
He has better handles than Lebron and he is only 19. I can't think of small forward who has better handles than Deni based on what I have seen. Just being honest. His big issue now is that he make one handed passes off the dribble with his left hand, but he can with his right. Eventually he is going to be ambidextrous passer and that when he is going to be a real problem.
If you look at Paul Pierce footage and Kukoc footage, 90 percent Pierce 30 percent kukoc. Revision...he is heavily influenced by Kyrie. That's the young generation with his handles.
Build your team with five shooters using Paul Pierce Form deeply bent hips and lower back arch at same time. before rising into shot. Elbow not pointing to the ground! } Avdija=young Paul Pierce
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Re: Deni Avdija 

Post#248 » by Meliorus » Sat Nov 21, 2020 3:10 am

payitforward wrote:Some of what you write makes perfect sense -- thus...
Meliorus wrote:...I just don't think we can measure work ethic, and it's just too broad, so I would rather focus on measurable percentiles....

Absolutely! You start with, "how well does this guy play basketball." &, when you write...
Meliorus wrote:...I believe there are a lot of players who fit this prerequisite of high character and work ethic.

http://www.tankathon.com/players/deni-avdija
http://www.tankathon.com/players/tyrese-haliburton
http://www.tankathon.com/players/jalen-smith
http://www.tankathon.com/players/devin-vassell

...(these) guys ...grade out the best in both box score and advanced stats.... This is measurable. ...

...who could disagree? Plus, a broad set of differences in character can all yield really good basketball players, while a small difference in a couple of box score stats separate a good player from a guy you waive. But then you write...
Meliorus wrote:...I think my last biggest question of Deni is his lateral quickness....

...leaving "box score and advanced stats" behind. Lateral quickness is not a "stat," especially not in the dynamic context of a game (e.g. consider anticipation -- just to take one complex matter that affects the significance of lateral quickness). Plus, it's really not your question, given...
Meliorus wrote:...I did read this from a guy who has claimed to watch Deni this entire year...

A giant leap -- right off the bridge, I'd say. :) We are no longer in the realm of "box score and advanced stats" at all. What does one second-hand eye-test report from "a guy" -- no, not even that, because the source has only "claimed to watch Deni...." have to do with, to use your phrase, "imeasurable percentiles?"

Meliorus wrote:..."Athleticism/body; decent athleticism/hops, not great. Very good end to end speed for a guy his size. His main issue IMO is his lateral speed. Sufficient for Europe, but will he be able to keep up in the NBA? I don’t know."...

Please give me a quantitative definition of "decent athleticism?" -- oh, & make sure your source is using that exact definition. &, is there a single thing called "hops?" What is "lateral speed?" Is that speed in the lateral mile? Or the 100 yard lateral dash? :)

As to his "will he be able.../I don't know" question-answer pair, please describe what information it contains. Actually, please don't: you'll just deepen the hole. Better to stop digging. I'll answer for you -- it contains no information whatever.

Then there's your gloss:
Meliorus wrote:...I don't know either, I don't see the quick-twitch/lateral quickness that good defenders have. I'm not sure he won't struggle on that end....

Look... there is no single quality "that good defenders have" -- at least not beyond commitment to it. Moreover, "quick-twitch/lateral quickness" is not a fact about how someone plays basketball.

I'm reminded of Lamar Odom's comment on Javale's early seasons: "The game is called basketball, not run and jump."


I mean the best we can do is use a combination of stats and eye test, what's wrong with that? What is the alternative? Deni is negative on FT%, offensive rebounds, fouls, 3%, FTA rate (he's not good at driving, this is a big one, there are games in the tournament where he avoided contact so he didn't have to go to free throw line), turnovers. If we just look at the advanced stats where are the positives? What can you point to?

Then I watch his tape and there's no evidence that he'll be able to defend NBA players, there's no evidence he'll be able to score on NBA rim protectors. So what's wrong with looking at stats and the eye test? Lateral quickness is as much of a quality as work ethic. For those who played basketball, lateral quickness is extremely important for defense, and it's not something that you can teach (harder than shooting). Defining lateral quickness as side to side movement.

Lastly, why is there even so much hopium regarding Washington's international picks or draft picks in general? There isn't a good draft record here. Where is the skepticism? Most guys on here thought Clarke was better than Rui, and he was (Twitter was screaming for months that Clarke was the better player at Gonzaga). Troy Brown was nobody's top option to draft either. What's wrong with admitting we're just not that good at drafting. We nail consensus picks in 2010, 2012, and 2013, otherwise, it's not so impressive.
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Re: Deni Avdija 

Post#249 » by closg00 » Sat Nov 21, 2020 3:19 am

Random thought, are their any flights currently between the U.S to Israel during COVID?...wonder when he can get here
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Re: Deni Avdija 

Post#250 » by Thedragonking » Sat Nov 21, 2020 4:49 am

closg00 wrote:Random thought, are their any flights currently between the U.S to Israel during COVID?...wonder when he can get here


Yes, there are flights and he said that he will join soon.


Btw, Deni was working hard on his game in Atlanta p3 center this past months before the draft, and also said he wanted to get used early to the life in the u.s.
He just went to israel for about 2 weeks.

He bearly had a break this season!

His work ethic is insane, added muscles + played while he could just skip(because he wanted to help his team win) when the israeli league came back.

improving all of pre covid stats, winning the championship for his team and the MVP award against grown mans, playing with and against former nba players.


When he played against players his age or older than him in the israeli u20 national team, he won back2back European championships being in the starting 5 of the tournament and won the last European championships u20 MVP award.


In August 2018, he participated in Basketball Without Borders Europe in Belgrade, where he was named camp MVP.
He also was at NBA All-Star Weekend in Charlotte, North Carolina, and was named MVP of the Basketball Without Borders Global Camp.


He wins and improves everywhere he goes!
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Re: Deni Avdija 

Post#251 » by Pistol King » Sun Nov 22, 2020 7:04 pm

I've became a big Deni fan during this year, so came to congrats you Wizards fans for the pick.

A new short workout video of him that I came across with today:



I'll try to give some of my impressions I got through out the year (watched a lot of his games) later on.
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Re: Deni Avdija 

Post#252 » by prime1time » Sun Nov 22, 2020 8:06 pm

Meliorus wrote:
payitforward wrote:Some of what you write makes perfect sense -- thus...
Meliorus wrote:...I just don't think we can measure work ethic, and it's just too broad, so I would rather focus on measurable percentiles....

Absolutely! You start with, "how well does this guy play basketball." &, when you write...
Meliorus wrote:...I believe there are a lot of players who fit this prerequisite of high character and work ethic.

http://www.tankathon.com/players/deni-avdija
http://www.tankathon.com/players/tyrese-haliburton
http://www.tankathon.com/players/jalen-smith
http://www.tankathon.com/players/devin-vassell

...(these) guys ...grade out the best in both box score and advanced stats.... This is measurable. ...

...who could disagree? Plus, a broad set of differences in character can all yield really good basketball players, while a small difference in a couple of box score stats separate a good player from a guy you waive. But then you write...
Meliorus wrote:...I think my last biggest question of Deni is his lateral quickness....

...leaving "box score and advanced stats" behind. Lateral quickness is not a "stat," especially not in the dynamic context of a game (e.g. consider anticipation -- just to take one complex matter that affects the significance of lateral quickness). Plus, it's really not your question, given...
Meliorus wrote:...I did read this from a guy who has claimed to watch Deni this entire year...

A giant leap -- right off the bridge, I'd say. :) We are no longer in the realm of "box score and advanced stats" at all. What does one second-hand eye-test report from "a guy" -- no, not even that, because the source has only "claimed to watch Deni...." have to do with, to use your phrase, "imeasurable percentiles?"

Meliorus wrote:..."Athleticism/body; decent athleticism/hops, not great. Very good end to end speed for a guy his size. His main issue IMO is his lateral speed. Sufficient for Europe, but will he be able to keep up in the NBA? I don’t know."...

Please give me a quantitative definition of "decent athleticism?" -- oh, & make sure your source is using that exact definition. &, is there a single thing called "hops?" What is "lateral speed?" Is that speed in the lateral mile? Or the 100 yard lateral dash? :)

As to his "will he be able.../I don't know" question-answer pair, please describe what information it contains. Actually, please don't: you'll just deepen the hole. Better to stop digging. I'll answer for you -- it contains no information whatever.

Then there's your gloss:
Meliorus wrote:...I don't know either, I don't see the quick-twitch/lateral quickness that good defenders have. I'm not sure he won't struggle on that end....

Look... there is no single quality "that good defenders have" -- at least not beyond commitment to it. Moreover, "quick-twitch/lateral quickness" is not a fact about how someone plays basketball.

I'm reminded of Lamar Odom's comment on Javale's early seasons: "The game is called basketball, not run and jump."


I mean the best we can do is use a combination of stats and eye test, what's wrong with that? What is the alternative? Deni is negative on FT%, offensive rebounds, fouls, 3%, FTA rate (he's not good at driving, this is a big one, there are games in the tournament where he avoided contact so he didn't have to go to free throw line), turnovers. If we just look at the advanced stats where are the positives? What can you point to?

Then I watch his tape and there's no evidence that he'll be able to defend NBA players, there's no evidence he'll be able to score on NBA rim protectors. So what's wrong with looking at stats and the eye test? Lateral quickness is as much of a quality as work ethic. For those who played basketball, lateral quickness is extremely important for defense, and it's not something that you can teach (harder than shooting). Defining lateral quickness as side to side movement.

Lastly, why is there even so much hopium regarding Washington's international picks or draft picks in general? There isn't a good draft record here. Where is the skepticism? Most guys on here thought Clarke was better than Rui, and he was (Twitter was screaming for months that Clarke was the better player at Gonzaga). Troy Brown was nobody's top option to draft either. What's wrong with admitting we're just not that good at drafting. We nail consensus picks in 2010, 2012, and 2013, otherwise, it's not so impressive.

We get it you don't like the pick. But the reality is there's no evidence of anything. Preseason starts December 10th with the season starting December 22nd. His game will speak for itself. One way or another.

But I must say I watched over 2 hours of tape and I disagree with many of your conclusions. Maybe you should include actual youtube clips with time stamps to support your conlcusions. His lateral quickness is actually pretty solid and most scouts projected him as a solid defender. Not to mention he is great with rotations.
;ab_channel=NBAonESPN'
At 29:20 the scout Mike Schmitz literally says he's impressed with his defense. I find it fascinating that your whole post is bent on attacking him. You find me how many wings in this draft that showed anywhere near the awareness that Deni did defensively. He's light years ahead of Rui defensively. But because you don't like the player all we get is paragraph after paragraph of his supposed flaws.

You talk about his FT % and it is a concern, but you leave out the fact that he shot 33% from 3 on 183 shots. How many players have completely broken jumpers at put up those kinds of numbers? More so, those numbers don't even do him justice because since then he has actually worked on his game. He tweaked his jumper before his league restarted in the summer and he's tweaking his jumper again now. The video above talks about his jumper, but tbh, it is so outdated. Since his league ended, he has become much more lean and in cut working at P3 in Atlanta. So again, even if you were right about his lack of lateral speed (which I question), we would have to point out that he's in a completely different shape.

Ultimately the problem with your post is this. If a guy had no flaws he wouldn't have fallen to us. The question is not if he's a perfect player or if he doesn't have flaws. The question is do his positives outweigh the negatives and can he work on and ameliorate his flaws. Your post reveals your bias because there's none of this in your post.

Now, I never know why it's so popular to talk about players not at all relevant to the thread but tbh it doesn't surprise me. Because your argument isn't even about Advija. It's with the Wizards management. It's as if, because we drafted him, he can't be good. To do this you literally make stuff up.
https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/2019-nba-mock-draft-top-three-of-zion-williamson-rj-barrett-ja-morant-a-virtual-lock-and-then-things-get-interesting/
It's anecdotal but this had Clarke at 27 and Rui at 12. 1 year in it's not clear that Clarke is "clearly the better player." He did win SF of the year in college, but again the facts don't matter. As Rui continues to improve his game, I look forward to the incessant posts on this board reminding us of just how bad he is. And if I had to guess unless Advija ends up becoming Doncic it'll be the same incessant denigrating posts about him also.

Nevertheless, the show must go on. So for posters who are interested in actually breaking down Deni's game and having a genuine conversation about his strengths, weaknesses, and future potential in the near future I'll be posting breakdowns of his game film.
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Re: Deni Avdija 

Post#253 » by NatP4 » Sun Nov 22, 2020 10:48 pm

I understand where Mel is coming from, but I wish we could all try to leave the wizards front office out of this and just evaluate Avdija.
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Re: Deni Avdija 

Post#254 » by WizarDynasty » Sun Nov 22, 2020 11:13 pm

I hated on him, but once I slowed things down on his clips and saw how nice his handles were, his handles are not european at all. And he has sick hip bend. Again, his elbow need to rise above his eyesocket but you can see his track speed, and he can control his momentum with stop and goes with his dribble better than John Wall. His handle looks tighter than John Walls loose handles. Let's hope he doesn't build up to much upper body strength and start to get rigid. Hopefully he is using really light weights and working on quick movement coordination.
His left hand doesn't have alot of stamina, and he can't make one handed passes with his left hand off the bounce. That would really open his game to dimension the wizards haven't seen in a long time.
Build your team with five shooters using Paul Pierce Form deeply bent hips and lower back arch at same time. before rising into shot. Elbow not pointing to the ground! } Avdija=young Paul Pierce
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Re: Deni Avdija 

Post#255 » by Meliorus » Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:43 am

prime1time wrote:
Meliorus wrote:
payitforward wrote:Some of what you write makes perfect sense -- thus...

Absolutely! You start with, "how well does this guy play basketball." &, when you write...

...who could disagree? Plus, a broad set of differences in character can all yield really good basketball players, while a small difference in a couple of box score stats separate a good player from a guy you waive. But then you write...

...leaving "box score and advanced stats" behind. Lateral quickness is not a "stat," especially not in the dynamic context of a game (e.g. consider anticipation -- just to take one complex matter that affects the significance of lateral quickness). Plus, it's really not your question, given...

A giant leap -- right off the bridge, I'd say. :) We are no longer in the realm of "box score and advanced stats" at all. What does one second-hand eye-test report from "a guy" -- no, not even that, because the source has only "claimed to watch Deni...." have to do with, to use your phrase, "imeasurable percentiles?"


Please give me a quantitative definition of "decent athleticism?" -- oh, & make sure your source is using that exact definition. &, is there a single thing called "hops?" What is "lateral speed?" Is that speed in the lateral mile? Or the 100 yard lateral dash? :)

As to his "will he be able.../I don't know" question-answer pair, please describe what information it contains. Actually, please don't: you'll just deepen the hole. Better to stop digging. I'll answer for you -- it contains no information whatever.

Then there's your gloss:

Look... there is no single quality "that good defenders have" -- at least not beyond commitment to it. Moreover, "quick-twitch/lateral quickness" is not a fact about how someone plays basketball.

I'm reminded of Lamar Odom's comment on Javale's early seasons: "The game is called basketball, not run and jump."


I mean the best we can do is use a combination of stats and eye test, what's wrong with that? What is the alternative? Deni is negative on FT%, offensive rebounds, fouls, 3%, FTA rate (he's not good at driving, this is a big one, there are games in the tournament where he avoided contact so he didn't have to go to free throw line), turnovers. If we just look at the advanced stats where are the positives? What can you point to?

Then I watch his tape and there's no evidence that he'll be able to defend NBA players, there's no evidence he'll be able to score on NBA rim protectors. So what's wrong with looking at stats and the eye test? Lateral quickness is as much of a quality as work ethic. For those who played basketball, lateral quickness is extremely important for defense, and it's not something that you can teach (harder than shooting). Defining lateral quickness as side to side movement.

Lastly, why is there even so much hopium regarding Washington's international picks or draft picks in general? There isn't a good draft record here. Where is the skepticism? Most guys on here thought Clarke was better than Rui, and he was (Twitter was screaming for months that Clarke was the better player at Gonzaga). Troy Brown was nobody's top option to draft either. What's wrong with admitting we're just not that good at drafting. We nail consensus picks in 2010, 2012, and 2013, otherwise, it's not so impressive.

We get it you don't like the pick. But the reality is there's no evidence of anything. Preseason starts December 10th with the season starting December 22nd. His game will speak for itself. One way or another.

But I must say I watched over 2 hours of tape and I disagree with many of your conclusions. Maybe you should include actual youtube clips with time stamps to support your conlcusions. His lateral quickness is actually pretty solid and most scouts projected him as a solid defender. Not to mention he is great with rotations.
;ab_channel=NBAonESPN'
At 29:20 the scout Mike Schmitz literally says he's impressed with his defense. I find it fascinating that your whole post is bent on attacking him. You find me how many wings in this draft that showed anywhere near the awareness that Deni did defensively. He's light years ahead of Rui defensively. But because you don't like the player all we get is paragraph after paragraph of his supposed flaws.

You talk about his FT % and it is a concern, but you leave out the fact that he shot 33% from 3 on 183 shots. How many players have completely broken jumpers at put up those kinds of numbers? More so, those numbers don't even do him justice because since then he has actually worked on his game. He tweaked his jumper before his league restarted in the summer and he's tweaking his jumper again now. The video above talks about his jumper, but tbh, it is so outdated. Since his league ended, he has become much more lean and in cut working at P3 in Atlanta. So again, even if you were right about his lack of lateral speed (which I question), we would have to point out that he's in a completely different shape.

Ultimately the problem with your post is this. If a guy had no flaws he wouldn't have fallen to us. The question is not if he's a perfect player or if he doesn't have flaws. The question is do his positives outweigh the negatives and can he work on and ameliorate his flaws. Your post reveals your bias because there's none of this in your post.

Now, I never know why it's so popular to talk about players not at all relevant to the thread but tbh it doesn't surprise me. Because your argument isn't even about Advija. It's with the Wizards management. It's as if, because we drafted him, he can't be good. To do this you literally make stuff up.
https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/2019-nba-mock-draft-top-three-of-zion-williamson-rj-barrett-ja-morant-a-virtual-lock-and-then-things-get-interesting/
It's anecdotal but this had Clarke at 27 and Rui at 12. 1 year in it's not clear that Clarke is "clearly the better player." He did win SF of the year in college, but again the facts don't matter. As Rui continues to improve his game, I look forward to the incessant posts on this board reminding us of just how bad he is. And if I had to guess unless Advija ends up becoming Doncic it'll be the same incessant denigrating posts about him also.

Nevertheless, the show must go on. So for posters who are interested in actually breaking down Deni's game and having a genuine conversation about his strengths, weaknesses, and future potential in the near future I'll be posting breakdowns of his game film.


Fair points, I do find it hard to believe that Clarke was not significantly better than Rui. Clarke's impact on the court was far better from a BPM and win shares standpoint, his defense was much better, and he was a big reason why the Grizzlies were winning. If you want to ignore those, he's still much more efficient offensively. Rui, on the other hand like many other rookies, was a net negative in his rookie year, even as a much older rookie age-wise.

Yes, it's true that I don't have much faith in management because I think we have a bias towards international prospects and a relative disregard for analytics. The Memphis front office continues to look for guys who stand out statistically and I believe it will work out for them. I just thought it was kind of obvious that we would take Haliburton or Vassell or Achiuwa, but we completely did something out of the blue once again.

33.3% on 183 attempts but that's including Israeli league with lower quality competition. Last season in EuroLeague he shot 13 out of 47 or 27%. He'll be playing against guys with longer wingspans contesting his shots in the NBA. Regardless, 33% is not exactly good. I hate on Deni for the same reason I hate on Lamelo Ball. I have no interest in prospects who aren't good at shooting or defense, unless you're a devastating at the rim finisher like Ben Simmons. Like oh, you just happen to not be good at the most 2 important things in the modern NBA, I'm sure that's a great sign!

I can keep going on about random statistical arguments that may not hold weight for you. He killed it in the Israeli league last season with ORtg of 110.5 and DRtg of 95.6 but in the EuroLeague his ORtg was 104.6 and his defense was much worse at 106.6. I am not going to cherry-pick highlight videos that make him look good. We can put out a best-of defense compilation of Aaron Nesmith making game-saving blocks, it doesn't change the fact that he's a bad defender.
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Re: Deni Avdija 

Post#256 » by NatP4 » Mon Nov 23, 2020 3:06 am

Please stop bringing up the Brandon Clarke situation. It’s still hurts me
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Re: Deni Avdija 

Post#257 » by Gig18 » Mon Nov 23, 2020 4:23 am

Deni's going to be a turbo-charged Tom gugliotta.
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Re: Deni Avdija 

Post#258 » by doclinkin » Mon Nov 23, 2020 4:40 am

Gig18 wrote:Deni's going to be a turbo-charged Tom gugliotta.
Goooogs


I think Deni is going to be a poor man's Chris Webber personally. Like if Googs and Webber had a baby. A Webbliotta. A Googber. A big with an interior game who can handle and pass. Still, as of right now it sounds like he can get roughed off of interior finishing in Euro play (vs Israel where he had an athletic advantage most nights). And Googs was a strong interior finisher. So. He's got some weight room work to do before that comparison is apt. Plus in this era all bigs are encouraged to work on their long ball, so I expect him to show range as he improves on it. But he's young, lots to develop in his game. He's got a good start.
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Re: Deni Avdija 

Post#259 » by payitforward » Mon Nov 23, 2020 4:44 am

Meliorus wrote:
payitforward wrote:Some of what you write makes perfect sense -- thus...
Meliorus wrote:...I just don't think we can measure work ethic, and it's just too broad, so I would rather focus on measurable percentiles....

Absolutely! You start with, "how well does this guy play basketball." &, when you write...
Meliorus wrote:...I believe there are a lot of players who fit this prerequisite of high character and work ethic.

http://www.tankathon.com/players/deni-avdija
http://www.tankathon.com/players/tyrese-haliburton
http://www.tankathon.com/players/jalen-smith
http://www.tankathon.com/players/devin-vassell

...(these) guys ...grade out the best in both box score and advanced stats.... This is measurable. ...

...who could disagree? Plus, a broad set of differences in character can all yield really good basketball players, while a small difference in a couple of box score stats separate a good player from a guy you waive. But then you write...
Meliorus wrote:...I think my last biggest question of Deni is his lateral quickness....

...leaving "box score and advanced stats" behind. Lateral quickness is not a "stat," especially not in the dynamic context of a game (e.g. consider anticipation -- just to take one complex matter that affects the significance of lateral quickness). Plus, it's really not your question, given...
Meliorus wrote:...I did read this from a guy who has claimed to watch Deni this entire year...

A giant leap -- right off the bridge, I'd say. :) We are no longer in the realm of "box score and advanced stats" at all. What does one second-hand eye-test report from "a guy" -- no, not even that, because the source has only "claimed to watch Deni...." have to do with, to use your phrase, "imeasurable percentiles?"

Meliorus wrote:..."Athleticism/body; decent athleticism/hops, not great. Very good end to end speed for a guy his size. His main issue IMO is his lateral speed. Sufficient for Europe, but will he be able to keep up in the NBA? I don’t know."...

Please give me a quantitative definition of "decent athleticism?" -- oh, & make sure your source is using that exact definition. &, is there a single thing called "hops?" What is "lateral speed?" Is that speed in the lateral mile? Or the 100 yard lateral dash? :)

As to his "will he be able.../I don't know" question-answer pair, please describe what information it contains. Actually, please don't: you'll just deepen the hole. Better to stop digging. I'll answer for you -- it contains no information whatever.

Then there's your gloss:
Meliorus wrote:...I don't know either, I don't see the quick-twitch/lateral quickness that good defenders have. I'm not sure he won't struggle on that end....

Look... there is no single quality "that good defenders have" -- at least not beyond commitment to it. Moreover, "quick-twitch/lateral quickness" is not a fact about how someone plays basketball.

I'm reminded of Lamar Odom's comment on Javale's early seasons: "The game is called basketball, not run and jump."

I mean the best we can do is use a combination of stats and eye test, what's wrong with that? What is the alternative? Deni is negative on FT%, offensive rebounds, fouls, 3%, FTA rate (he's not good at driving, this is a big one, there are games in the tournament where he avoided contact so he didn't have to go to free throw line), turnovers. If we just look at the advanced stats where are the positives? What can you point to?

Then I watch his tape and there's no evidence that he'll be able to defend NBA players, there's no evidence he'll be able to score on NBA rim protectors. So what's wrong with looking at stats and the eye test? Lateral quickness is as much of a quality as work ethic. For those who played basketball, lateral quickness is extremely important for defense, and it's not something that you can teach (harder than shooting). Defining lateral quickness as side to side movement.

Lastly, why is there even so much hopium regarding Washington's international picks or draft picks in general? There isn't a good draft record here. Where is the skepticism? Most guys on here thought Clarke was better than Rui, and he was (Twitter was screaming for months that Clarke was the better player at Gonzaga). Troy Brown was nobody's top option to draft either. What's wrong with admitting we're just not that good at drafting. We nail consensus picks in 2010, 2012, and 2013, otherwise, it's not so impressive.

Sure -- you have a right to (in fact you have to!) take a look & make up your own mind. But this is a guy who was universally viewed as one of the top talents in the draft, & you are making him sound like he is so bad that he shouldn't have been drafted at all -- let alone near the top of draft.

You know what? That's one possible outcome -- it may turn out that Deni Avdija isn't good enough to be an NBA journeyman. Or that he's an all star. The relevant fact is that you have no idea which it will be or where he'll land on the spectrum between those two points.

You don't & I don't. No difference between us in that.

But, because I don't, I'm not predicting. & I'm not making up stuff from non-sources to justify anything either. & so, when you do exactly that (repeatedly & insistently), it seems worth it to point out that you have no idea what you're talking about -- not in a discreditable way: you simply couldn't have the information to support any claim to knowledge.

As you know, I didn't like the pick of Rui (doesn't mean he won't be good player), & you are right that Clarke was better at Gonzaga (by a whole lot!). He's also been better in the NBA (by a whole lot!). But, in this case, there was a ton of actual information to work with to make that call -- for one thing they played in exactly the same context! Clarke's numbers were a ton better than Rui's.

As to Troy Brown, I didn't like the pick (again... not "didn't like the player") -- but in this case I was wrong & admitted it later. Very few players picked after Brown in the '18 draft have played anywhere near as well as he has.
Remember -- if you don't like the post above: blame Doc not me.
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Re: Deni Avdija 

Post#260 » by WizarDynasty » Mon Nov 23, 2020 4:57 am

Gig18 wrote:Deni's going to be a turbo-charged Tom gugliotta.
Goooogs

Deni was a track Athlete, he can accelerate on a live dribble after double crossover between his legs..Nasty--Goog could never do antything like that, neither could chris webber. This dude deni can deeply bend his hips for long durations of time and crossover between his legs. It's like the Wiz found the only person in the draft that could do what i have been preaching for weeks. Deep hip bend for long duration of time while dribbling.
Deni has it. This guy Deni if he stays healthy is going to be one of the greatest forwards in Washington History. I never said anything close to that about Otto Porter, Oubre, Troy Brown, Vesely, Nick Young, Jarvis Hayes, Richard Hamilton.
Gugliotta can't accelerate while running. Deni can shoot off the dribble and create his shot off the dribble. Gugliotta was a catch and shoot and couldn't create space of a live dribble for his shot. Deni is 19 and can cross between his legs with a deep hip bend like Kyrie.
tom Gugliotta was either a catch and shoot or drive straight line to basket without being able to stop his momentum. They are very different players. TOM was purely a powerforward catch and shoot, Deni is true point forward, with elite handles or close to elite. He is much more like Paul Pierce.
Build your team with five shooters using Paul Pierce Form deeply bent hips and lower back arch at same time. before rising into shot. Elbow not pointing to the ground! } Avdija=young Paul Pierce

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