Deni Avdija

[Meliorus]

Fair enough -- why don't you link to that post, so we can see context & what else you said? Thanks.

viewtopic.php?f=35&t=1625243&p=59272355&hilit=fultz#p59272355

Sorry, here it is. This is also prior to Ben Simmon's first game, who many, thought was going to be good.

[NatP4]

I like the Gordon Hayward ceiling comparison. Somewhere between Saric and Hayward.

Brown Jr is somewhere between Evan Turner and Andre Iguodala

Hachimura is somewhere between Markieff Morris and Lamarcus Aldridge???? I don’t even know with him.

[WizarDynasty]

@Meliorus: Fair enough -- why don't you link to that post, so we can see context & what else you said? Thanks.

viewtopic.php?f=35&t=1872549&start=1949

Always pay attention to a player lower back arch before he rises into his shot. that tells you his shooting potential. If he can create a lower back arch before rising into his shot, then he has low potential shooting. Education Wiz pretend GM's and hopefully we wont draft a euro bust for a third straight time. I wanted to believe that I could finally watch winning DC basketball but Leonsis didn't change teh culture like he promised.

[Ed Wood]

Where is the idea that Deni's a bad defensive player for his age or otherwise incapable of being a functional NBA defender coming from? He isn't lauded like Vassell or Okoro for present or future potential to really be an exceptional defender but essentially everything reported of him credits him with being pretty good for his age and not like physically predisposed to being a bad defender.

[DCZards]

From a statistical perspective, can you defend Deni's free throw and 3 point shooting and defense in a league that values those things most? What about his dropoff in production from Israeli league to Euroleague? If his methods of scoring in the Israeli league didn't translate to the EuroLeague, why is it translating to the NBA against more elite athletes with longer wingspans? If he's so good why is he averaging 4 points in the EuroLeague where Hezonja performed better?

Deni is far from a finished product. He's only 19 years old after all. What's obvious is that he handles, passes and creates extremely well for a 6-9 player. He's also very competitive...and that's a good thing.

Yes, Deni's shooting and defense needs improvement. And I'm sure there are other areas that we all can agree he's currently not at an NBA level.

But, again, he's only 19 years old and he wouldn't be the first 19 year old to improve significantly and become an outstanding NBA player...assuming he does.

[nate33]

Where is the idea that Deni's a bad defensive player for his age or otherwise incapable of being a functional NBA defender coming from? He isn't lauded like Vassell or Okoro for present or future potential to really be an exceptional defender but essentially everything reported of him credits him with being pretty good for his age and not like physically predisposed to being a bad defender.

The scouts I've read about him are pretty consistent in saying he is a solid defender. He doesn't have great length so his potential to be a true defensive stopper is limited, but he makes good use of the tools he has. He fights hard, he stays in position, and he's a good defensive rebounder.

[WizarDynasty]

Avdija has had success -- big time success -- at a level higher than the NCAA.

He's 19 years old.

At least one analyst called him the best prospect in this draft.

Mike Schmitz said that a few years from now, looking back, we might see Deni as the best player to come out of this entire draft.

The guys most talked about here, if Okongwu was gone, were: Achiuwa (went #20), Saddiq Bey (#19), Nesmith (#14) & Vassell (#11).

We don't know how it'll work out, of course. But I'm pretty happy that we got him at the 9th pick in the draft. Seems like quite good value. Seems like he was the highest-value target available when we picked.

Schmitz history is suspect, he has called many players excellent and highest upside and ended up being Dragon Bender, Mario Hezonja, etc. No ESPN analyst is any good, they are all overly optimistic every player is the best player ever, when in fact you have a higher chance of being right if you're overly negative on every player.

Read on Twitter

?s=20

"No mention of how Avdija shoots, defends, or anything. Just "toughness, emotion, and passing". We don’t even need the latter 2, we need shooting and defense, Tommy. We need a PG and a defensive center, Tommy. Not a 6’10 SF/PF again. Not Israeli fans, we barely have local fans.

Feels like a backstab. How hard is it to avoid the position we least need and the skills we least need? We don’t need another SF/PF. A wing with no strengths other than "playmaking". Our backcourt dribbles the air out of the ball. Wall doesn’t let other players make plays because he doesn’t contribute off ball at all, by shooting or cutting. We already have Troy Brown and Bonga in this exact situation going into next year."

I really don't like it when our coaching staff and management starts talking about emotion and playing the right way. It's never about tangible skills, it's becoming a meme at this point.

this is going to go down as Vesely level monumental screw up. I hope Beal jet's the moment his contract is up. We here at Realgm analyzed this draft and gave you all the info. that you needed, and after a full season of suffering, you go out and draft another Euro bust in the lottery. Fool me once...with Vesely...Shame on you... Fme twice with Deni...shame on me.

Once again, when Deni bust like Vesely did because the dude has poor form and bad hips, not even above average athlecism, poor standing reach, not elite agility, and. you have him going up against the top athletes in the world and you expect to win. We basically went out and got a ford escort to race against top playoff team Ferrari's. Now you see why Miami is always retooling. They see true inherent value in a player, not follow mock drafts. That's why Wizards have been a losing organizatin for all 50 years. Last time they went to a championshiop was back in what??? 1978. This is the reason why. This day and this day alone, we have direct evidence why you as loyal fans will never see a deep playoff team in Washington. It's because the decision makers lack skills to evaluate true talent and make emotional decisions based on toughness...instead of the information that we provided in nearly 100 pages on this board. My prediction, Beal will be in LA winning a championship. Wall will be back on IR reserve and still collecting his money and we will be lotto teams again for another 4 or 5 years.
At least i Have the redskins to look forward too. And I guess Leonsis inherited Ovechkin, it wasn't Leonsis leadership that brought him into the organization. OH well. NO point in rooting for Wiz after today for a while. Maybe I come back when we get a competent GM and not Grunfeld VEsely and Otto ..in the lottery? So many blunders using Emotions instead BBIQ to build your franchise. and most of this board are happy about Deni.
I don't know how you can make him longer than 8'4 and I don't know how you can magically make him explosive and finish above the rim, or have a coordinated above the eyesocket elbow. or even have paul pierce or. Gordan Hayward shooting form and abvoe teh rim explosiveness. I don't know. I tried. I believe we finally made the step forward but two step back is just back breaking.

[Ed Wood]

What about his dropoff in production from Israeli league to Euroleague?

Is this really a particularly mysterious phenomenon? His performance dropped off because the Euroleague is hard as ****. A significant majority of the players drafted out of Europe (particularly as relatively young players for their draft cohort) don't have Euroleague performance at all to assess - which is true of the other two highly touted European prospects this time around. Uneven offensive production was a concern for the vast majority of other players selected in the lottery - for Ball, Wiseman, Edwards, Williams (who shot fairly well, but in a very limited role), Cole Anthony, and Isaac Okoro.

I think we fail to appreciate that even good (but not sublime) prospects aren't good enough to be good NBA players yet - I struggle to imagine more than a few of the players who were drafted slotting into an NBA rotation and not being actively bad based on their play last year. The Euroleague isn't quite as demanding, but it's the next best thing. This doesn't appear to have been a phenomenal draft; a version of Deni who produced in the Euroleague as he did in the Israeli league would not have been remotely in our range to draft.

[Meliorus]

What about his dropoff in production from Israeli league to Euroleague?

Is this really a particularly mysterious phenomenon? His performance dropped off because the Euroleague is hard as ****. A significant majority of the players drafted out of Europe (particularly as relatively young players for their draft cohort) don't have Euroleague performance at all to assess - which is true of the other two highly touted European prospects this time around. Uneven offensive production was a concern for the vast majority of other players selected in the lottery - for Ball, Wiseman, Edwards, Williams (who shot fairly well, but in a very limited role), Cole Anthony, and Isaac Okoro.

I think we fail to appreciate that even good (but not sublime) prospects aren't good enough to be good NBA players yet - I struggle to imagine more than a few of the players two were drafted slotting into an NBA rotation and not being actively bad based on their play last year. The Euroleague isn't quite as demanding, but it's the next best thing. This doesn't appear to have been a phenomenal draft; a version of Deni who produced in the Euroleague as he did in the Israeli league would not have been remotely in our range to draft.

I don't really see a path to non-bust status for Ball, Cole Anthony, especially, as there have never been players shooting their percentage as guards to ever be successful (just 0, they basically shoot in the 1st percentile). I view Okoro, Edwards, and Williams as likely busts. Wiseman I like and think he would do well in the EuroLeague last year. I agree that the aforementioned names would have struggled in EuroLeague, but that's because I think they're busts. Do I think Okongwu, Haliburton, Toppin (on the offense end) would have played well? Yes.

[DCZards]

From ESPN on 2020 NBA draft winners & losers:

WASHINGTON WIZARDS

Givony: Considered a strong candidate to hear his name called in the top five, Deni Avdija falling all to way to the end of the top 10 was a bit of a surprise. Part of that was by design, as Avdija's camp was highly selective in electing where to send medical info. They favored good development situations where he could find immediate playing time in a strong organization.

Avdija should find everything he was looking for in Washington. There is playing time to be had and opportunities to develop his playmaking and shooting ability in one of the NBA's most up-tempo offenses.

https://tv5.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/30346139/nba-draft-2020-biggest-first-round-winners-losers

[tontoz]

Where is the idea that Deni's a bad defensive player for his age or otherwise incapable of being a functional NBA defender coming from? He isn't lauded like Vassell or Okoro for present or future potential to really be an exceptional defender but essentially everything reported of him credits him with being pretty good for his age and not like physically predisposed to being a bad defender.

The scouts I've read about him are pretty consistent in saying he is a solid defender. He doesn't have great length so his potential to be a true defensive stopper is limited, but he makes good use of the tools he has. He fights hard, he stays in position, and he's a good defensive rebounder.

Most 19 yr olds are going to get overpowered inside by grown men. Watching that vid in the OP he looks like he gives solid effort on D but gets muscled around inside which i would expect from any 19 yr old not named Shaq or Lebron.

[Ed Wood]

Wiseman I like and think he would do well in the EuroLeague last year. I agree that the aforementioned names would have struggled in EuroLeague, but that's because I think they're busts. Do I think Okongwu, Haliburton, Toppin (on the offense end) would have played well? Yes.

This is not the worst draft to have a very negative take on. That massacre does largely leave the upside of the draft in the hands of a lot of safer pick players (and I guess like Okongwu and Kira Lewis). Haliburton I agree could plausibly have been a functional but probably kind of low visibility player in the Euroleague last year. He's also just about the most finished player in the draft who doesn't have powerful backup point guard energy. I really like him as a player and enjoy watching him but there are certainly nits to pick there too (how good can a player who doesn't drive and largely doesn't dribble as a guard aspire to be, even if he's a great passer, shooter, and decision maker). Toppin may have, though he's also a much more finished product and legit maybe he wouldn't have because there are definitely entrenched Euroleague coaches who would not forgive his missing a rotation. I'm not convinced Wiseman would have played a lot in the Euroleague - he's not at all clearly a polished enough player for that to me (then again it is hard to tell given what's happened with him).

e: Okongwu I can imagine having had a small but strong showing a la Jonas Valanciunas - not necessarily playing huge minutes, but shooting and rebounding pretty well.

[prime1time]

Avdija has had success -- big time success -- at a level higher than the NCAA.

He's 19 years old.

At least one analyst called him the best prospect in this draft.

Mike Schmitz said that a few years from now, looking back, we might see Deni as the best player to come out of this entire draft.

The guys most talked about here, if Okongwu was gone, were: Achiuwa (went #20), Saddiq Bey (#19), Nesmith (#14) & Vassell (#11).

We don't know how it'll work out, of course. But I'm pretty happy that we got him at the 9th pick in the draft. Seems like quite good value. Seems like he was the highest-value target available when we picked.

Schmitz history is suspect, he has called many players excellent and highest upside and ended up being Dragon Bender, Mario Hezonja, etc. No ESPN analyst is any good, they are all overly optimistic every player is the best player ever, when in fact you have a higher chance of being right if you're overly negative on every player.

Read on Twitter

?s=20

"No mention of how Avdija shoots, defends, or anything. Just "toughness, emotion, and passing". We don’t even need the latter 2, we need shooting and defense, Tommy. We need a PG and a defensive center, Tommy. Not a 6’10 SF/PF again. Not Israeli fans, we barely have local fans.

Feels like a backstab. How hard is it to avoid the position we least need and the skills we least need? We don’t need another SF/PF. A wing with no strengths other than "playmaking". Our backcourt dribbles the air out of the ball. Wall doesn’t let other players make plays because he doesn’t contribute off ball at all, by shooting or cutting. We already have Troy Brown and Bonga in this exact situation going into next year."

I really don't like it when our coaching staff and management starts talking about emotion and playing the right way. It's never about tangible skills, it's becoming a meme at this point.

I feel you like, clearly with a 19 year old the most important thing is how skilled he was before and not if he’s a hard worker. Like obviously the barometer for drafting a player should be how skilled he was at 18. I don’t know why the Wizards can’t get this simple fact. Basketball skills rarely if ever improve with hard work...

[WizarDynasty]

No this is second worst draft every since 2000 after Vesely draft. Think about the players better than Deni. Every single one of the Lotto teams got a starter. We didn't even get a bench player, we got a bust. Kira Lewis. Jalen smith, Vassel, haliburton, nesmith, cole anthony, ...even freakin saddiq bey... achiuwa, zeke nnaji... isaih steward...

So i guess this front office thought....Hey we are going to be trail blazers and select the first Jewish Player all star. This will really bring our fan base up. I have no problem selecting a jewish player if he is dominant player with proven meausurements like standing reach, shooting 90 percent from free throw line, deep hip bend and lower back arch while accelerating off a crossover into a high release point jumper. the only thing i see this guy do is be able to cross between his legs and I don't even think he can palm the ball.

The only way the front office stays is because we build the jewish fan base? I can't see any other reason why Grunfeld's protege stays as GM?... I just can't. Leonsis really had me sold with the "whole" starting a new culture. Beal is gone guys. This was the last chance for this team to get an impact on player. I screamed it for weeks who they should pick. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't force it to drink.
Even if it was to build the Jewish Fan Base, no one is going to root for habitually losing franchise, even if you are jewish.
My thinking is Leonsis trusted Grunfeld's protege which was a huge mistake. leonsis isn't a basketball genius so he though tommy would be better than grunfeld. Tommy should leonsis the mocks on espn and the fact that teh kid was Jewish. I don't see any way that Beal or Wall signed off. Maybe that's why we heard the trade rumors of Wall to Houston. They told wall who they were going to pick and wall was done. beal already has an opt out clause so he is free in one year.
AFter today, Miami seems like the best option to root for.. They actually had enough since to draft Achiuwa. Hope you guys enjoy rooting for this loosing franchise. It always starts at the top. hachimura i thought they may have learned something...but picking him was just pure luck.

His free throw percentage was 58.8. Wow, i just don't how i stayed a fan with this franchise all of these years. If his father was pro player, did you even look to see if the father was great at shooting when he was pro. clearly he wasn't or his son wouldn't shoot this poorly? Red light but i guess Wizards are small market team. Pat Riley would never blunder like this. Getting a GM who played as former HOF.. hall famer should have been leonsis first priority. Instead he took a grunfeld retread and pushed..."changing culture". NOw we lost Beal to LA. and Wall is going to collect his checks and injured reserve. why play hard when management lacks ability to get championship talent when it is staring them in the face and instead follows espn and nba mocks. Why were the wizards the first team in lottery to pick a Euro? I think its just disrepectful to a loyal fan base. But whatever I done with them.

[closg00]

From ESPN on 2020 NBA draft winners & losers:

WASHINGTON WIZARDS

Givony: Considered a strong candidate to hear his name called in the top five, Deni Avdija falling all to way to the end of the top 10 was a bit of a surprise. Part of that was by design, as Avdija's camp was highly selective in electing where to send medical info. They favored good development situations where he could find immediate playing time in a strong organization.

Avdija should find everything he was looking for in Washington. There is playing time to be had and opportunities to develop his playmaking and shooting ability in one of the NBA's most up-tempo offenses.

https://tv5.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/30346139/nba-draft-2020-biggest-first-round-winners-losers

...also, his agent is DC-based, so it's a win-win for him.

[NatP4]

Some hot takes in here.

[prime1time]

The NBA draft is when organizations get to decide who they are/want to be. Like how people know that such and such player is a Spurs type player or a Heat type player. For elite players this is irrelevant but for everyone else it is essential. Calling out our organization because our management/head coach want to talk about character traits is not only nonsensical it flat out misses the forest for the trees. That’s literally what the draft is about. For years we just drafted anyone without rhyme or reason. Kevin Seraphin, Trevor Booker, Kelly Oubre, Jan Vesely, Andray Blatche, Jarvis Hayes, Jared Jeffries, Tomas Satorabsky, Oleksiy Petreocvhov. What commonalities connects any of those players? Say what you want about Sheppard, at least he has a vision for who he wants the Wizards to be. Hard working, tough, high iq basketball players. You can criticize players but perhaps it makes more sense to criticize the vision. But to be fair, I think you should offer your own vision. I think this wizards team has a chance to be pretty formidable in a year or two. I think Sheppard has done a bang up job overhauling a terrible roster. And I question precisely how the posters criticizing him would have gone about building the roster. Ultimately I feel like some people complain because it’s all they know. Like the saying goes, when you’re a hammer everything looks like a nail.

[DCZards]

Chill WizD.

You know you’re not done with this board and as a Zards fan as you claim.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

CCJ - What are you thoughts on Troy Weaver's work so-far as GM @ DET? I know you wanted him as an Ernie replacement

I'm no CCJ, but Weaver sure put his stamp on the team. he got criticized for the Hayes pick, but I liked it. Thought 16 was too high for Stewart, but he's the definition of a solid big. SBey at 19 was a great pick, but he gave up Kennard to do it. Probably Kennard wanted out, and maybe Weaver wanted him out for his lack of defense. What do all of his picks have in common? They're physically tough. Overall, I'd give him a B, maybe B+.

Thx Ruz, you may have been high on Weaver too.

You’re far too kind.

I really don’t know; but, I like the willingness to grab as many rookie deal players while jettisoning Andre Drummond.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

He kind of just reminds me of a 6’9 Satoransky. I don’t understand how this fits with Wagner, Bryant, Hachimura, and Bertens, but who cares.

The highlights scare you because of Mario Hezonja, but they excite you because of Doncic. We’ll see I guess. I wanted Haliburton, but I can’t argue with the upside of this pick.

Love his effort level, intelligence, and feel for the game. Cant go wrong with that

Tomas Satoransky is exactly who I see as well. I agree as well on fit, particularly with Troy Brown on the roster.

Halliburton and IMO Jalen Smith would have been better selections. Smith in a trade down.

How far did you wan to trade down for Jalen Smith?

Funny, cuz it would have backfired!

Honestly, I said from day one and would have been thrilled with Smith at #9.