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Deni Avdija

Moderators: montestewart, LyricalRico, nate33

Do you like this pick?

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Total votes: 102

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Re: Deni Avdija 

Post#621 » by NatP4 » Tue Mar 2, 2021 3:11 pm

This is total nonsense, you should’ve seen some of the comments from Satoransky’s former coaches and fans in regards to Brandon freaking Jennings, that was hilarious.

It’s news if it was coming from Avdija himself. Otherwise, it’s no different from the opinions of all us on his message board. Brooks is awful, Avdija is being completely misused. Westbrook is not very good. It’s annoying to watch.

Nothing to see here
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Re: Deni Avdija 

Post#622 » by payitforward » Tue Mar 2, 2021 3:12 pm

Well, we're back to the normal way to treat a Wizards rookie! :) The way Brad was treated, for example.

Deni Avdija came in as a 19-year old rookie. He's played in a couple of dozen NBA games. He was handed a starting job & performed surprisingly well during a time when the team was basically losing every night. Then, as was to be expected, he began to crater.

We're definitely not on the Rui model here -- where a guy who has played 2200 minutes over two seasons & is no better than he was on day one gets adulation instead of criticism -- "Look at that, did you see that? He was in the right place that time!" Wow!

I have a perfect way to end this nonsense -- a poll is coming up....
Remember -- if you don't like the post above: blame Doc not me.
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Re: Deni Avdija 

Post#623 » by nate33 » Tue Mar 2, 2021 3:12 pm

prime1time wrote:I think trying to sweep this under the rug or act like it’s nothing is a mistake. The biggest issue is that they have a point. Look at what we’ve done to Troy Brown Je. We love to draft all-around forwards and then limit them. This will continue to be a thing going forward. And you might argue that next year will be better but why? We will have mother first round pick that needs PT, Bonga, Brown Jr, Hachimimura and Bertans.

Next year, we will have a new coach.
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Re: Deni Avdija 

Post#624 » by nate33 » Tue Mar 2, 2021 3:13 pm

payitforward wrote:Well, we're back to the normal way to treat a Wizards rookie! :) The way Brad was treated, for example.

Deni Avdija came in as a 19-year old rookie. He's played in a couple of dozen NBA games. He was handed a starting job & performed surprisingly well during a time when the team was basically losing every night. Then, as was to be expected, he began to crater.

We're definitely not on the Rui model here -- where a guy who has played 2200 minutes over two seasons & is no better than he was on day one gets adulation instead of criticism -- "Look at that, did you see that? He was in the right place that time!" Wow!

I have a perfect way to end this nonsense -- a poll is coming up....

If you think Rui is no better than he was on Day 1, you are not paying attention.
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Re: Deni Avdija 

Post#625 » by doclinkin » Tue Mar 2, 2021 3:18 pm

payitforward wrote:Honestly, I wonder what coaching any of these guys get.


David Adkins, player development coach, does seem pretty good at working on players' shooting, defense, and habits. When Rui commits and shoots the ball with confidence from outside it looks better. That said in a pandemic, who knows how much practice and weight room time anyone gets.
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Re: Deni Avdija 

Post#626 » by prime1time » Tue Mar 2, 2021 3:28 pm

NatP4 wrote:
prime1time wrote:
nate33 wrote:
Do you have a source for this?

Certainly Avdija's fans want him to be highlighted, which is totally normal. But is there any evidence that Avdija himself expects to be given a prime role?

I posted my source already. His former coach wants us to trade either Westbrolk or Beal so he can have a larger role. Read between the lines. It’s all over twitter. They want Advija to be given chances to play make and learn from his mistakes. That only happens on teams trying to rebuild.


All of us want that. Show us evidence that Avdija himself has given any indication of this.

No all of us do not want this. I want to keep Beal. And keeping Beal means winning games. And not letting players like Advija just “create.” Until I see evidence to the country, this teams plays best when Advija is in a 3 and D role. In fact, the reason we sent him to the bench is that Matthews can do this better than he can. If I have to choose between winning games and keeping Beal or potentially losing games and developing Advija, it’s not even a real choice.

The clear move here is for Advija to accept being a 3 and D player, work on his game, excel when he gets opportunities and then slowly have his responsibility grow. But we’d be remiss if we didn’t treat this like a serious issue. The issue isn’t just that Advija wants a bigger a role. It’s that our team is not structurally built to offer a bigger role to him. We play like OKC did in the middle 2010s. Or how the Wizards played when we went on our playoff run with Wall and Beal that ended in Game 7 vs the Celtics.

It is not enough to just draft a player and think yhat your work is done. You have to actually build a team. And that means thinking about how the team will be structured. What does a championship team look like on the Wizards? Is it a team where players like Advija and Rui have freedom to initiate offense and play make? Is it a team where we replace Westbrook with another ball dominant star and keep our forwards to being 3 and D only?

I’ve said it in the draft thread and I’ll repeat it here. Too often we look at draft picks in a vacuum. This guy is good. This guy is bad. Like the team they go to doesn’t matter. If this is the role we are going to ask our forwards to play going forward we should have never drafted Brown Jr or Advija. Some teams go this route. Look at Phoenix. They were looked down upon but they drafted Cam Johnson. Ultimately, these kinds of situations arise when there is a lack of cohesive vision for a team.

It’s funny that so many fans want to sweep this under the rug like everything is fine. Organizations work ultimately when goals are aligned. When one individuals goals are not aligned with organizations goals, problems arise. over the last decade, we’ve gotten rid of Otto Porter and Kelly Oubre, we’ve stunted the career of Brown Jr and we have now drafted Advija and tried to turn a point forward into a 3 and D player. Goos organizations don’t do this. I like the job that Sheppard has done but this is a problem that needs to be rectified one way or another. A lot of fans expect players to just suck it up and go along with the program but misalignment of individual and organizational goals are a hallmark of dysfunctional organizations.
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Re: Deni Avdija 

Post#627 » by queridiculo » Tue Mar 2, 2021 3:34 pm

prime1time wrote:I think trying to sweep this under the rug or act like it’s nothing is a mistake. The biggest issue is that they have a point. Look at what we’ve done to Troy Brown Je. We love to draft all-around forwards and then limit them. This will continue to be a thing going forward. And you might argue that next year will be better but why? We will have mother first round pick that needs PT, Bonga, Brown Jr, Hachimimura and Bertans.


There's an alternate universe were guys like Nick Young, Javale McGee, Dominic McGuire, Jan Vesely and Chris Singleton etc. are all hall of famers because they got just the right amount of coaching, got a ton of unwarranted playing time and had every gameplan catered to their strengths.

In this world, these guys washed out because they weren't as good as the Washington Wizards hoped they'd be.

I don't care for Brooks, but he does see these guys every day in practice, on film, etc.

I find the suggestion that Brooks coaching is the difference between the season Avdija is having and the impact LaMelo Ball is having as a rookie laughable quite frankly.
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Re: Deni Avdija 

Post#628 » by DCZards » Tue Mar 2, 2021 3:43 pm

nate33 wrote:
payitforward wrote:Well, we're back to the normal way to treat a Wizards rookie! :) The way Brad was treated, for example.

Deni Avdija came in as a 19-year old rookie. He's played in a couple of dozen NBA games. He was handed a starting job & performed surprisingly well during a time when the team was basically losing every night. Then, as was to be expected, he began to crater.

We're definitely not on the Rui model here -- where a guy who has played 2200 minutes over two seasons & is no better than he was on day one gets adulation instead of criticism -- "Look at that, did you see that? He was in the right place that time!" Wow!

I have a perfect way to end this nonsense -- a poll is coming up....

If you think Rui is no better than he was on Day 1, you are not paying attention.

Rui's most obvious improvement has been in an area that's hard to quantify on a spreadsheet--defense. That's the kind of improvement that is either hard for PIF to recognize...or hard for him to admit. Or maybe both.
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Re: Deni Avdija 

Post#629 » by NatP4 » Tue Mar 2, 2021 3:48 pm

Again, Avdija has given no indication that he is upset with his role/development. You are just making things up.

The larger point here is that the organization has absolutely no direction. They are halfway trying to win, halfway trying to rebuild. They treat Rui like a core developmental piece and treat Avdija like a stand in the corner 3&D role player that is going directly to the bench if he misses a single shot. It’s absolutely terrible.

You are justifying this. You actually think we should be in win now mode instead of developing young players and trying to rebuild?
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Re: Deni Avdija 

Post#630 » by payitforward » Tue Mar 2, 2021 4:25 pm

nate33 wrote:
payitforward wrote:Well, we're back to the normal way to treat a Wizards rookie! :) The way Brad was treated, for example.

Deni Avdija came in as a 19-year old rookie. He's played in a couple of dozen NBA games. He was handed a starting job & performed surprisingly well during a time when the team was basically losing every night. Then, as was to be expected, he began to crater.

We're definitely not on the Rui model here -- where a guy who has played 2200 minutes over two seasons & is no better than he was on day one gets adulation instead of criticism -- "Look at that, did you see that? He was in the right place that time!" Wow!

I have a perfect way to end this nonsense -- a poll is coming up....

If you think Rui is no better than he was on Day 1, you are not paying attention.

Oh, I'm paying attention, nate. Perhaps it's a question of what I am paying attention to, what you are paying attention to, & overall, what one ought to pay attention to?

Plus, it's an over-simplification to be sure. There are, no doubt, some ways in which Rui has improved slightly (while getting worse in others). &, of course, it's also a question of what one means by "better," isn't it? "Good," like "beautiful," "intelligent," & a bunch of other words is what linguists call an "honorific" -- praise given as if it were an objective thing. I.e. as if to say something is "good" were like saying it is "spherical."

So, instead of these evaluative words, let's just see whether, after 2200 minutes, the numbers Rui produces in his time on the floor as a 2d year player are better overall than they were as a rookie. I used https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hachiru01.html to check.

Rui's efg% has gone up from 48.9% to 49.8% -- on lower usage -- he's taking fewer shots than he did last year -- & of course it's still way, way below average. TS% is up just a little, it's true -- it's improved by 2.6%. Still way below average. While scoring fewer points than last year.

He's getting to the line a little more than last year, .65 more times per 40 minutes. For a while, he was doing better than that, but it's dropped.

Just as, for a while his 3pt% had jumped nicely. Check where it is now.

In short, it'd be a stretch to say that a PF who scores a below average number of points at a below average FG% & TS% (neither of which has changed much from the previous year) has improved, wouldn't you say? Has Rui been a better scorer this year? In a way that would make you say, "Rui has changed" -- ?

But, why not, right...? Let's say there has been a slight improvement in scoring.

Rui's defensive rebounding is unchanged -- about 80% of what an average (not a good) PF gets.

His offensive rebounding has declined by 30%. Overall, in other words, he's an even worse rebounder this year than last.

He is one of the worst shot-blocking 4s in the league -- average is sixteen times what he delivers! & worse this year than last.

The rest of his per 40 minute (or per game, for that matter) numbers are virtually identical to last year (he's below average in assists & about average in steals, while his best numbers, this year & last, are his significantly better than average TO & foul rates.

There is, overall, virtually no difference between what Rui delivers on court this year as opposed to last year.

Is any of that worth paying attention to, nate? No? Doesn't mean much? Why?
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Re: Deni Avdija 

Post#631 » by Dolevi » Tue Mar 2, 2021 4:27 pm

I remember being told I was wrong when I talked about John being traded, yet here we are. To be clear Advija isn’t asking for anything extreme. He wants the chance to grow as a young player. That’s completely reasonable, but it is something that the Wizards can’t offer.
So the real question that's needed to be asked is, why the Wizards have drafted him? If you are in Win now mode, and can't let the guy do the mistakes in order to get better, then why have u chosen him? :banghead:
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Re: Deni Avdija 

Post#632 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Tue Mar 2, 2021 4:30 pm

queridiculo wrote:
prime1time wrote:I think trying to sweep this under the rug or act like it’s nothing is a mistake. The biggest issue is that they have a point. Look at what we’ve done to Troy Brown Je. We love to draft all-around forwards and then limit them. This will continue to be a thing going forward. And you might argue that next year will be better but why? We will have mother first round pick that needs PT, Bonga, Brown Jr, Hachimimura and Bertans.


There's an alternate universe were guys like Nick Young, Javale McGee, Dominic McGuire, Jan Vesely and Chris Singleton etc. are all hall of famers because they got just the right amount of coaching, got a ton of unwarranted playing time and had every gameplan catered to their strengths.

In this world, these guys washed out because they weren't as good as the Washington Wizards hoped they'd be.

I don't care for Brooks, but he does see these guys every day in practice, on film, etc.

I find the suggestion that Brooks coaching is the difference between the season Avdija is having and the impact LaMelo Ball is having as a rookie laughable quite frankly.


McGee is still playing and he has three championship rings. Young was a better player than Flip Saunders was as a Wizards coach. He also played over ten NBA seasons and has a championship ring. Those two weren’t washed.

I still think Vesely was serviceable before the Okafor/Ariza trade that effectively took any playing time he might have played away

I agree with your main point that the Wizards didn’t stop any these guys from being great players. I disagree that the wizards did not mismanage careers. The Wizards failed miserably at player development.
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Re: Deni Avdija 

Post#633 » by DCZards » Tue Mar 2, 2021 4:45 pm

Dolevi wrote:
I remember being told I was wrong when I talked about John being traded, yet here we are. To be clear Advija isn’t asking for anything extreme. He wants the chance to grow as a young player. That’s completely reasonable, but it is something that the Wizards can’t offer.
So the real question that's needed to be asked is, why the Wizards have drafted him? If you are in Win now mode, and can't let the guy do the mistakes in order to get better, then why have u chosen him? :banghead:

I assume they drafted Deni because they thought he was the best player available at the 9th pick. Nothing wrong with that.
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Re: Deni Avdija 

Post#634 » by prime1time » Tue Mar 2, 2021 4:46 pm

It might be a non story we’ll see. I would point out that the Wizards have a history of not developing and keeping SF’s. This is an orgnizational issue that has endured multiple coaches. From an organizational standpoint we have to decide if we are going to have a motion offense where everyone participates and multiple initiate, or if we are going to have an offense where only a handful of players initiate offense. Before we traded for Westbrook, the expectation was that upon Wall’s return he would fit into the offensive system that we ran last year. Instead we traded for Westbrook, and now the iso offense that we were trying to get away from has returned. Before the trade for Westbrook I listened to multiple interviews from Sheppard where he was explaining that he wanted an offense where multiple people initiated. Yet he completely through out this plan when he traded for Westbrook. Now we are benching our first round draft picks and elevating 3 and D players. This is not a coaching issue. It is a roster construction issue. And Westbrook is under contract for another 3 years.

Here’s a better question what does a championship that has a prime Deni Advija averaging 22, 6 and 6 on good efficiency look like? It has to be a passing, motion offense where there is not a ball dominant star present like a Westbrook or a Wall or even a Doncic. Too often we draft players but we don’t think things through. What does it mean to have a championship team where non-elite players routinely create.
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Re: Deni Avdija 

Post#635 » by Dolevi » Tue Mar 2, 2021 4:56 pm

DCZards wrote:
Dolevi wrote:
I remember being told I was wrong when I talked about John being traded, yet here we are. To be clear Advija isn’t asking for anything extreme. He wants the chance to grow as a young player. That’s completely reasonable, but it is something that the Wizards can’t offer.
So the real question that's needed to be asked is, why the Wizards have drafted him? If you are in Win now mode, and can't let the guy do the mistakes in order to get better, then why have u chosen him? :banghead:

I assume they drafted Deni because they thought he was the best player available at the 9th pick. Nothing wrong with that.

See that's the problem. When you pick a player because he's "the best available", and not because of the team's needs (especially if you're at WIN NOW MODE), this is what you get. Bad management, and Bad planning.
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Re: Deni Avdija 

Post#636 » by prime1time » Tue Mar 2, 2021 5:06 pm

NatP4 wrote:Again, Avdija has given no indication that he is upset with his role/development. You are just making things up.

The larger point here is that the organization has absolutely no direction. They are halfway trying to win, halfway trying to rebuild. They treat Rui like a core developmental piece and treat Avdija like a stand in the corner 3&D role player that is going directly to the bench if he misses a single shot. It’s absolutely terrible.

You are justifying this. You actually think we should be in win now mode instead of developing young players and trying to rebuild?

What I think is irrelevant. I’m talking about what is happening. Can you make the distinction? I don’t run the team I’m a fan. I see a team that is playing a completely different style of offense than last year. I see a team that drafted Advija to play a role that does not currently exist. Now could that change going forward? Of course. But I live in the present. You can say I’m making it all up, but this is simply because you wish to ignore what I’m really getting at which is roster construction, team vision and the lack of coherence between the players we draft and the roles they are asked to play.

Too many people are fine with the notion that if Advija sucks it up and stays quiet everything would be just swell. Everything would not be swell. We drafted a round peg and are trying to jam him into a square hole. We drafted a point forward, and then try to put him into a 3 and D role. It’s easy to hide behind the notion that as Advija develops he will get more opportunities. But is this really true? Rui’s developing, Brown Jr is extended, we will have another first round draft pick this year. Where is Advija going to get these touches from?

If we wanted a 3 and D, we should have drafted 3 and D. But the lack of a cohesive vision allows us to draft a point forward and then treat him like a 3 and D. When he doesn’t excel we bench him. This is what bad organizations do. Right now there is no cohesive vision for the future. All I can comment is what I’ve seen and what I’ve seen is a team that is constricting the roles of players on offense, funneling more and more possessions to Beal and Westbrook, turning wings into purely 3 and D with no opportunities to play make. Now you can argue that next year will be different, and that might be the case, but then you should deal the other issue that is what does a Championship team look like in which a prime Advija averages 20/6/6.

The truth is that after this year the Wizards will have some real soul searching to do due to a lack of cohesive vision.
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Re: Deni Avdija 

Post#637 » by NatP4 » Tue Mar 2, 2021 5:18 pm

DCZards wrote:
Dolevi wrote:
I remember being told I was wrong when I talked about John being traded, yet here we are. To be clear Advija isn’t asking for anything extreme. He wants the chance to grow as a young player. That’s completely reasonable, but it is something that the Wizards can’t offer.
So the real question that's needed to be asked is, why the Wizards have drafted him? If you are in Win now mode, and can't let the guy do the mistakes in order to get better, then why have u chosen him? :banghead:

I assume they drafted Deni because they thought he was the best player available at the 9th pick. Nothing wrong with that.


And players can still develop despite changing circumstances in regards to team direction.

It seems like the wiz were actually rebuilding for the last couple seasons and Troy brown Jr still didn’t play all that much though.

I think it’s just a bad organization that has no vision or direction.
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Re: Deni Avdija 

Post#638 » by NatP4 » Tue Mar 2, 2021 5:23 pm

Ted probably told Sheppard that we can’t eat Brooks’ contract, we just have to wait it out. Drafting BPA is still the right thing, but Sheppard’s hands are tied in regards to player usage and development.
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Re: Deni Avdija 

Post#639 » by nate33 » Tue Mar 2, 2021 5:31 pm

NatP4 wrote:Ted probably told Sheppard that we can’t eat Brooks’ contract, we just have to wait it out. Drafting BPA is still the right thing, but Sheppard’s hands are tied in regards to player usage and development.

I'm just hoping that Sheppard will get to pick his guy this summer (or better yet, Ujiri picks his guy).

I can understand Ted being a cheapskate last year and sticking with Brooks, particularly since Brooks hasn't been uniquely awful in his tenure here (until the start of this season, that is). But it makes no sense for Ted to hire a new GM but not let him pick his own coach eventually. Sheppard needs to find a guy whose coaching vision fits with Sheppard's vision of teambuilding.
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Re: Deni Avdija 

Post#640 » by NatP4 » Tue Mar 2, 2021 5:40 pm

nate33 wrote:
NatP4 wrote:Ted probably told Sheppard that we can’t eat Brooks’ contract, we just have to wait it out. Drafting BPA is still the right thing, but Sheppard’s hands are tied in regards to player usage and development.

I'm just hoping that Sheppard will get to pick his guy this summer (or better yet, Ujiri picks his guy).

I can understand Ted being a cheapskate last year and sticking with Brooks, particularly since Brooks hasn't been uniquely awful in his tenure here (until the start of this season, that is). But it makes no sense for Ted to hire a new GM but not let him pick his own coach eventually. Sheppard needs to find a guy whose coaching vision fits with Sheppard's vision of teambuilding.


I promise you the pick will be Sengun. I have no idea if that’s a good or bad thing, but it will 100% be the pick.

But I fully agree. Either give Sheppard a real shot at this or hire a new GM/team pres and let him make his own personnel decisions. I’m fine with either, just have some kind of direction.

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