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Ive seen enough--Shep has to go

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Re: Ive seen enough--Shep has to go 

Post#41 » by TGW » Sat Nov 21, 2020 4:49 pm

Dat2U wrote:
Shoe wrote:Clown thread bro. Just entering year 2 of a rebuild.


So we need to be patient and give Shepp the chance to prove he's better than Ernie over the next 16 years? :noway: :crazy: :nonono:


:lol:
Some random troll wrote:Not to sound negative, but this team is owned by an arrogant cheapskate, managed by a moron and coached by an idiot. Recipe for disaster.
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Re: Ive seen enough--Shep has to go 

Post#42 » by Meliorus » Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:36 pm

With Wall and Beal saying they don’t want to play with each other, it could become a him or me situation where Sheppard has to trade Wall to appease Beal. What’s likely going to happen is we’ll have to attach a 1st rounder to move Wall. Then Sheppard will spin it by doing his little transactions throughout the year and get more failed prospects/late 2nd rounders, and say, “well, this is basically a 1st rounder to us”, just like how he told us about Jerome Robinson.

This is pathetic.
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Re: Ive seen enough--Shep has to go 

Post#43 » by Shoe » Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:12 pm

TGW wrote:
Dat2U wrote:
Shoe wrote:Clown thread bro. Just entering year 2 of a rebuild.


So we need to be patient and give Shepp the chance to prove he's better than Ernie over the next 16 years? :noway: :crazy: :nonono:


:lol:


Ah yes giving Tommy more than one offseason is the same as 16 years.

BTW he's trying to build job security as this is his one shot to be an NBA GM. That's why even though you all hate drafting Rui and Deni, it was a brilliant move. Ted loves the marketing and branding those two bring. Honestly the drafts mightve sealed his extension as the Wizards GM.
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Re: Ive seen enough--Shep has to go 

Post#44 » by doclinkin » Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:24 pm

Meliorus wrote:With Wall and Beal saying they don’t want to play with each other, it could become a him or me situation where Sheppard has to trade Wall to appease Beal.


They haven't said that. They have said the opposite all along. David Aldrige even in his tweet says that they openly say the opposite, that they want to play together, but that he himself believes differently because Wall is unhappy at the front office's lack of commitment to that plan, in both his attempt to trade him and them openly stating they are building around Beal and it is his team. He feels, rightfully, unwanted. He wants to go somewhere that wants him. Why not.
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Re: Ive seen enough--Shep has to go 

Post#45 » by Ed Wood » Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:24 pm

Meliorus wrote:Then Sheppard will spin it by doing his little transactions throughout the year and get more failed prospects/late 2nd rounders, and say, “well, this is basically a 1st rounder to us”, just like how he told us about Jerome Robinson.

This is pathetic.


The Wall situation is certainly looming large but this is (1) assuming it will result in having to set the team back to trade Wall, which is possible but obviously not presently the case (2) laying it at Tommy's feat that Wall and Beal have fallen out so badly, if indeed they have, which doesn't really seem fair and (3) then just casting a positive feature of his management to date as a negative essentially out of frustration.

I don't think Tommy is one of the very best at what he does in the league, and I'm not all that opposed to the team's looking elsewhere (but also I'm very sure they could do worse). That said, the issues that genuinely stick to me are (1) I think his first draft was somewhat questionable - which remains to be really determined with Rui, but I wasn't especially enamored of the decisions made at the time and I don't see a great deal to overturn that to date and (2) he has probably burned a roster spot and some money over a single year on a bad player in Lopez. The third issue would be that the team hasn't vaulted into contention, which is true. I haven't really seen plausible routes to its having done so presented.

Everything else being invoked is some combination of weird non-issues (he has drafted/signed international players - I genuinely don't get why this is being harped on as intrinsically a bad thing and it gives me weird, low key prejudiced vibes) and things that are actively good (turning nothing into even modest prospects).
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Re: Ive seen enough--Shep has to go 

Post#46 » by doclinkin » Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:26 pm

Ed Wood wrote:
Everything else being invoked is some combination of weird non-issues (he has drafted/signed international players - I genuinely don't get why this is being harped on as intrinsically a bad thing and it gives me weird, low key prejudiced vibes) and things that are actively good (turning nothing into even modest prospects).


The international thing hints to me at a blind spot or a prejudice in the other way, in my opinion. And in truth it has less to do with the guys we currently have on the roster, who, really, I appreciate and have high hopes for, and more to do with past draft moves when Tommy was director of international scouting, etc. If he is bringing to the front office the decision-making that landed us Pecherov, Vesely, Seraphin, Vladimir Veremeenko, etc etc. then I'm concerned about his skill assessment. In his history to this point it seems Tommy has a bias towards international players.

Is that in and of itself bad? No. Players with international experience have a grounding in fundamentals of basketball and don't have to unlearn some poor habits that AAU ball can train into them. Selecting FIBA players is not inherently bad unless it manifests in a bias AGAINST american, or frankly african american players and you pass over more talented guys in favor of players you scouted overseas. If his assessment tree is biased towards "good character guys", to me that can be code for a dislike of talented athletes who grew up a little more rough. You see this sort of mindset in the selection of places like Utah, who have to pander to a particularly biased fanbase. In past years under various administrations you have seen that mindset in spots like Indiana. I'm forgetting where else. Places where scouts would note that all else being equal, X team will always go for the international player over the NCAA guy.

If that sort of prejudice manifests in a desire to slight John Wall for a PR indiscretion, that has no effect on his on court play or rehab, then in fact he may end up alienating a fanbase who ourselves have grown up rough and still have friends who had to make some hard decisions in life. And therefore we may lose out on some skilled players because of an assessment of some off court intangibles that have little to do with statistical effect on the win/loss column. And we make decisions to swap CWebb for a toothless Mitch Richmond, etc.

Again, like I said, I like international experience in a player that is talented. But the majority of the league is not from Europe. For a reason. Because kids here grow up in a basketball crucible from early on. Some part of the survival set of growing up in that crucible means you may not have been surrounded with the sort of people that Tommy would think of as "good character" guys. And if that sort of bias means you are willing to slight or jettison a guy like John Wall, who yeah didn't have great male role models when he was a teen and his dad was locked up, and is a sensitive cat with anger issues, and has had a hell of a rehab, while losing his mom to cancer, just because he was indiscreet in one video and likely still grieving with whatever coping mechanism he has, well, then, I'm not about it. Personally I think John Wall has shown pretty good character in being a good soldier for the organization. He was ready to come back last season, has been burning to do so, to find proper outlet for his years long frustration, but the scuttlebutt was the organization wanted no pushback from their insurance payment, so they sat him down even in the bubble when he wanted to play.

I like Tommy. But it's a mixed bag so far. He is a change from Ernie, in a positive way. But how he resolves the John Wall situation will go a long way for me in assessing his quality as a GM.
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Re: Ive seen enough--Shep has to go 

Post#47 » by jayscott » Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:29 pm

TGW wrote:Posters on the general board are laughing at the Wizards. Perpetual laughing stock.


Ha! Not surprised. It is painful man. Painful.
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Re: Ive seen enough--Shep has to go 

Post#48 » by doclinkin » Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:35 pm

Ed Wood wrote:The Wall situation is certainly looming large but this is (1) assuming it will result in having to set the team back to trade Wall, which is possible but obviously not presently the case (2) laying it at Tommy's feat that Wall and Beal have fallen out so badly, if indeed they have, which doesn't really seem fair


By their own accounts they have not fallen out. Wall credits Beal as being the first person to meet him when his mother passed. And showing up for him after surgery etc. Tommy however, in blunting the trade rumors about Beal, has gone out of the way to make it clear "this is Brad's team" and "we are building around him", etc. Which will sound pretty harsh to a 5 time allstar who has been your franchise player to this point. It would not sting if he had a chance to prove himself on the floor. But apparently Sheppard was stealth shopping him, and if we are busy believing the twitter whispers about Wall's feelings etc, then we ought to believe the assessment that this was due to Tommy's disappointment in John being caught on video partying or whatever. It's not a schism between Brad and Wall, it is the front office being vocally supportive of John in public, but then sniffing around on his trade value behind the scenes and getting tangled in a situation of another front office's implosion and bad chemistry. It was a mis read of the situation, both of John and of the intentions of the new guy in Houston, who proved to be a bad actor in that conversation.
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Re: Ive seen enough--Shep has to go 

Post#49 » by Eli Babak » Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:37 pm

It's so rough to be a fan of this team. **** off Ted, **** off Tommy, **** off Brooks. Only 4-5 years to actual rebuild... maybe. :nonono:
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Re: Ive seen enough--Shep has to go 

Post#50 » by doclinkin » Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:38 pm

2-3, 2-3, its always 2-3.
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Re: Ive seen enough--Shep has to go 

Post#51 » by 80sballboy » Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:44 pm

Utterly a stupid thread and I did not want Shep either. You are going to judge him on signing Robin Lopez and Raul Neto? How about Rui and Deni. Those are the moves that are important. Lopez or RoLo was not giving a Mahinmi contract. It's one freakin' year of a mediocre-at-best backup center. Do you think he had the choice of any young athletic big man in the league? It takes two to tango. Not saying Moe Harkless is great, but when he or his agent said he had a lot more lucrative offers out there, but he signed with the Heat. Why? Because he wanted to sign with a winner.

Nobody wants to f-ing play here because of the organization which starts with two people: Ernie and Ted. Ernie crushed this franchise with terrible FA moves and draft picks and Ted just stood there and watched. And I've been saying this for over five years. If you don't think that some if not most of these moves have something to do with Ted I have a bridge to sell you.

Though I think we all want to credit Shep for bringing over Thomas Bryant, that actually was under Ernie's watch. How much did Shep have to do with these Euro moves when Ernie was the GM? Probably a lot though Ernie is a damn Euro.

Shep did bring in Bonga and Wagner. I know, more Euros, though Wagner played at Michigan. Bonga appears to have potential as a poor man's Ariza, if he can find a consistent jumper.

Getting Bertans back for five years and taking a shot on Gill might not be brilliant, but seems to be solid moves. I just hope the draft picks work out and they resolve the Wall situation. That should be easy.
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Re: Ive seen enough--Shep has to go 

Post#52 » by jayscott » Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:53 pm

Dat2U wrote:
Bertans was a good pickup but not one of these other moves is consequential.

He literally wasted 4 months of on-court player development last season because he refused to release IT and allowed Brooks to keep playing him despite it being clear he couldn't contribute anymore.

This Wall fiasco is completely his self-created disaster. Even Ernie knew to keep his mouth shut and the Wizards out the rumors section.

Then signing a washed backup C for the entire MLE in an overloaded C market is just indefensible, especially when the C position was by far your biggest need... and he paid top price for a 3rd stringer.


I'll tell you one thing, Tommy learned to never deal with Fertitta and the Rockets ever again without certainty that a trade is gonna happen.

But erm...Tommy isn't getting any passing grades from me, even before the Wall trade situation. No idea the direction the Wizards want to go.
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Re: Ive seen enough--Shep has to go 

Post#53 » by leswizards » Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:14 pm

For those who don’t understand that direction the Wizards are taking, let me explain it to you. It is very simple. The Wizards have $80 million invested in contracts for 2 players for multiple years, and 1 of those players is unmovable unless the Wizards are willing to take garbage in return. So the Wizards are building around those 2 players as best as they can in the hopes that they get a lucky break in the next few years that change the basic dynamics for the better.
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Re: Ive seen enough--Shep has to go 

Post#54 » by Meliorus » Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:32 pm

doclinkin wrote:
Meliorus wrote:With Wall and Beal saying they don’t want to play with each other, it could become a him or me situation where Sheppard has to trade Wall to appease Beal.


They haven't said that. They have said the opposite all along. David Aldrige even in his tweet says that they openly say the opposite, that they want to play together, but that he himself believes differently because Wall is unhappy at the front office's lack of commitment to that plan, in both his attempt to trade him and them openly stating they are building around Beal and it is his team. He feels, rightfully, unwanted. He wants to go somewhere that wants him. Why not.


Read on Twitter
?s=20
Read on Twitter
?s=20

Wait can you link me where he says that? I guess I don't have access to the Athletic or something. The tweets make it seem like it's from Wall and Beal's mouths.
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Re: Ive seen enough--Shep has to go 

Post#55 » by doclinkin » Sat Nov 21, 2020 10:17 pm

Yeah but that is David Aldrige playing psychic and denying what they say.

David Aldrige speculating in the athletic wrote:it’s clear to anyone paying attention that your two star players, who will deny it when asked and call me crazy and uninformed and talk about how they love each other and that they’re like brothers, and yadda yadda yadda, don’t want to play with each other anymore.


Not sure when it became kosher in journalism to deny what your interviewees say and claim you know their own minds better than them. Seems like that wouldn't pass the editors desk in years past. But John and Brad say that is not what they feel. Omniscient reporter deity DA has decided differently.

When in reality it has nothing to do with friction between the two, but that John doesn't want to play here because of this:

And, he made a very, very stupid mistake flashing gang signs in a shirtless, profane video posted in September. He apologized. He had just turned 30 the week before. It was a dumbass thing to do at any age, but really dumbass when you’ve been the well-paid face of a franchise for a decade, and the father of two kids. And I’ve heard Leonsis was royally ticked off by it ...


Ted who apparently talked with John all the time to check in on him suddenly pitches him because of something that had not much to do with anything. So. All the DC Family stuff means nothing. Because you don't try to trade your brother out of the family because they acted with indiscretion. You don't own a players personal life. And frankly you don't own the morality of your fans, many of whom are not really up in arms because of John hanging out late with a friend, whatever the affiliation. Has Wall been busted for possession or violence or whatever? What has he done in the community but help out people who can't pay rent, and all. He's one of ours, you circle the wagons and maybe cuss him out in house, but don't trade him while he is grinding to try to get back and show you he was worth the effort and care and patience you invested in him to this point.

It's not a problem with Brad and John, and in fact would likely go into Brad's calculation that it is all a business and he might as well get his elsewhere. Because you can't trust what they are publicly saying, when behind closed doors they are trying to sell you away.

Wall is not Bulletproof Andray Blatche. He wants to play all day every day. But you don't want him to play for you, cool, he will play elsewhere. He broke his body playing through pain and bone spurs and player rotations that had him out for 40 minutes a game because you could not hire a single competent back up at his position (save old dog Andre Miller for a minute I guess). And he makes one mistake and you want to ship him. Me personally I'd be with Wall on that one, F*** two-faced Ted.

If it is Ted directing Tommy to ask around then never mind on this thread, the guy is just doing his job, and the blame squarely lies with that smarmy huckster who owns the team.
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Re: Ive seen enough--Shep has to go 

Post#56 » by payitforward » Sun Nov 22, 2020 12:06 am

closg00 wrote:
Dat2U wrote:Lol, I'm already a closet Memphis fan. Pretty soon I'll probably buy a Morant jersey pretty soon. Not rushing to buy any Wizards gear, that's for sure.

Shepp is going nowhere soon. Ted has irrational patience b/c frankly he doesn't appear to care. Just remember how he bungled the search process and couldn't close the deal with guy who viewed this **** job as his dream job.

We got what many people assumed when we hired Ernie's 2nd in command. A guy that mentored for years by him. A younger, more vibrant version of Ernest Grunfeld.

Memphis CRUSHED another draft, will be following

Add me to this please. Plus... Memphis is a really nice town!
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Re: Ive seen enough--Shep has to go 

Post#57 » by payitforward » Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:57 am

WallToWall wrote:
queridiculo wrote:
WallToWall wrote:Cant judge the pie before its finished being baked. Lets wait till he's done with his moves. Just maybe, there is thought to the madness.

I have no idea where you draw this optimism from, all I see is a pile of shite and shoddy work by the headman in charge.

I draw my optimism from his pickup of the likes of Bonga for next to nothing, Bertans for next to nothing, Wagner for next to nothing, Bryant, and Hach. To me, he's earned the time to watch his pie bake.

Put me on this list too.

Sheppard has been mixed -- not bad, mixed.

The Avdija pick is a roll of the dice -- in a way it's rather like the picks of Edwards, Wiseman & Ball at the very top of the draft. You see brilliance, & you see some flaws too.

No one expected Deni to be there at #9. I would have taken him too. How could you not? The only other players worth consideration instead would have been Haliburton & (maybe) Hampton. I have no problem whatever with this pick.

How he handled the rest of the draft is another matter entirely. Here are the problems I see:

1. Notice that 8 of the last 15 picks in R1 were traded (something I've never seen). We needed to be part of that process: we absolutely needed one of those picks (esp. after screwing up last year's draft). Now... maybe there was no way. No way at all. But I don't think so. But if it was plain impossible, then...

2. ...Notice that 4 of the first 6 picks in R2 were also traded. We needed -- badly! -- to target one of those picks in order to come away with either Tillman or Bey.

3. Having failed in both those goals, we made a completely inane move: we traded our own #37 pick for the #53 pick, plus a Thunder R2 pick in... 2024 !! If the deal were all in this year's picks, I'd want #46 & #53 for #37. But, future assets trade at a discount -- & we got #53 plus what will likely be a low R2 pick... 4 years out! That is awful....

4. At least make the Thunder get you a mid-40's pick this year from another team, plus #53, if they want the deal. Draft Paul Reed or Nate Hinton or Grant Riller or Jahm'ius Ramsay or Skylar Mays or Kenyon Martin Jr. or Sam Merrill or Cassius Stanley -- plus Cassius Winston. Or buy the pick. 9 of the last 24 picks in the draft also changed hands!

Overall, what I see is lack of any overall intention. They took what they thought was the BPA at #9 -- no problem, might have gotten lucky, might not work out. I can't see passing on him. Then they traded down from 37 to 53 for not much in return & for no obvious reason. We need a 3d string PG, so they picked one at #53 (luckily he was there).

I don't get it. & that in a nutshell is my problem with Tommy -- I can't figure out what his intentions are, what his strategy is, what he's trying to accomplish.

Can you?
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Re: Ive seen enough--Shep has to go 

Post#58 » by doclinkin » Sun Nov 22, 2020 2:29 am

payitforward wrote:Overall, what I see is lack of any overall intention. They took what they thought was the BPA at #9 -- no problem, might have gotten lucky, might not work out. I can't see passing on him. Then they traded down from 37 to 53 for not much in return & for no obvious reason. We need a 3d string PG, so they picked one at #53 (luckily he was there).

I don't get it. & that in a nutshell is my problem with Tommy -- I can't figure out what his intentions are, what his strategy is, what he's trying to accomplish.

Can you?


Murmurs were Xavier Tillman and Cassius WInston are both represented by Beal's agent. I think they were hoping for XT, when he didn't fall they were fine taking whatever deal was on the table to pick up a future asset while still picking a hard working good guy who might otherwise have gone undrafted, as a gesture of good faith to Beal's agent.
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Re: Ive seen enough--Shep has to go 

Post#59 » by trast66 » Sun Nov 22, 2020 2:47 am

The only strategy I’m seeing is that they are picking up what they consider to be high character guys. Secondarily, players who can’t play defense.

I think the 2nd round moves this year we’re to get rid of the Admiral’s contract.
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Re: Ive seen enough--Shep has to go 

Post#60 » by payitforward » Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:16 am

I can't keep a steady opinion of Tommy Sheppard for more than 5 minutes! So I understand every single post in this thread -- pro & con alike!

Signing Lopez is about as bad a move as one could imagine. At least it's only for one year.
Failing to sign Nerlens Noel was just awful.
Signing Neto is a solid decision.
Drafting Deni was great -- the best pick at that spot.
Trading #37 for #53 & an OKC R2 pick in 2024 was... ridiculous, insane, pointless.
Picking Winston with that #53 was a) lucky (that he was there) & b) an excellent decision
Signing Anthony Gill was... meh.
Signing Yoeli Childs was terrific.

So, there you are: 3 days work with more complicated stuff than I can follow!
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