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2021 Draft thread. Woo! 15th pick here we come! Hoo. Ray.

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Re: 2021 Draft thread. Woo! 15th pick here we come! Hoo. Ray. 

Post#1841 » by I_Like_Dirt » Fri Jun 25, 2021 10:54 pm

Ruzious wrote:Honestly, Garrett Temple can barely play - at this point in his career. He might have more value as a coach. I'd bet the mortgage and the kids that Duarte has a better season than Temple - assuming good health and a reasonable coach.
Fair enough, bad example. Pick a different free agent then. It doesn't really matter.

Really, though, if the idea is a guy can come in and be worth half the MLE right away and has upside beyond that, then you aren't drafting him because he can play right away, you're drafting him because his potential is really high. A draft is lucky if it has 15 to 20 top 8 rotation players in it in any given year (not counting times teams try players out, they don't work out and are replaced shortly after).

If you think you've got that with potential on top of that you don't hesitate unless you actually see someone better. That's different than drafting someone to put into the rotation for a marginal upgrade temporarily. You're drafting for long term value even there, not short term value.

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Re: 2021 Draft thread. Woo! 15th pick here we come! Hoo. Ray. 

Post#1842 » by pcbothwel » Fri Jun 25, 2021 11:41 pm

prime1time wrote:I had long take on Garuba, but I deleted it. The challenge that you're going to have when scouting a player like Garuba is something I've written about in past years. If you follow College Basketball and NBA basketball, you develop archtypes that you fit players into. Non-skilled bigs, athletic wings that lack skills, shooters that don't play defense etc. For the most part, if you stick to American players this analysis works. The challenge, however, is when you bring that same perspective o players from overseas. Garuba is a great example of this. Before I watched any tape I assumed he fit easily into the non-skilled big category. Perhaps a little undersized but he fit nevertheless. When I started watching him though something didn't add up. He was simply looked way too smooth and fluid to be an unskilled big.
Spoiler:
People are going to look at Garuba's euroleague tape and conclude that he's an high energy unskilled big because that's the role Real Madrid put him in. This was an 18-year-old playing with grown men. And the Euroleague is notorious for limiting what young players can do. Now that I've watched some tape of Garuba, he is vastly more than an unskilled big. And if you look at what Tommy has said about previous draft picks - Rui, Deni - he is most certainly the type of player we'd draft. Don't get it wrong now, Garuba's a ball of clay. But put in the right environment and having the right coaching he can develop into one of the best players of this draft.

;ab_channel=EUROLEAGUEBASKETBALL

Look at this clip. This is when Garuba was 17. He won MVP of the tournament over our own Deni Avdija. Look at the fluid play at 36 seconds. 2 dribbles reverse pivot and then comeback to the right hand hook. There are bigs that couldn't do that right now. Garuba was doing it at 17. I think to have a real perspective on Garuba you really have to watch stuff before his Euroleague. Euroleague so severely limited his game that it doesn't give an accurate depiction of what he's capable of. I'm going to watch more tape of Garuba and make a second post.

Needless to say, this kind of pick would be right in Sheppard's wheelhouse. For me, I'd be happy with the pick. He's way more offensively skilled than people realize and a end of games, he will give us a clear-cut advantage against teams with unskilled bigs. Not to mention his improving 3-point shot. Is it a risk? Yes. But players like this don't come along very often. Now I'm not saying that this is who Garuba will end up being, but to get some perspective on Garuba and how teams can miss on foreign players, look no further than Giannis. Now for every Giannis, there's a Bruno Caboclo, which is why it's important to do real scouting and dig deep into players.


Glad you're on board. Garuba, Wagner, Giddey are top 12 talents in the draft... and probably Top 8.
You said it better than I could have with Garuba. You put him in a archetype that doesnt quite fit.

That clip showed him on the glass and scoring, but I think his passing his thoroughly underrated. I think he's Draymond 2.0, and I wouldnt hesitate to take him. He's a day 1 contributor with huge upside as the 3rd/4th best player on a championship team.

One of my main hiccups about a Russ + 15 for Simmons trade is Garuba.
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Re: 2021 Draft thread. Woo! 15th pick here we come! Hoo. Ray. 

Post#1843 » by 80sballboy » Sat Jun 26, 2021 12:47 am

BTW, never said we should go after Zaire Williams at 15. I just think he's intriguing. I'd rather have somebody who can play right away since we want to win now. He's a guy who needs time to get stronger and improve his J. But I wouldn't give up on 19, 6-10 with a 39-inch vertical.

Now Tommy may not be brilliant as a GM yet, but he's no dope. He's going to interview guys that he may not take at 15, but would take later. He might interview guys that he will not take in a million years, but he's trying to throw people off. Just remember, he's the dude who said we weren't trading John Wall and traded him moments later.
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Re: 2021 Draft thread. Woo! 15th pick here we come! Hoo. Ray. 

Post#1844 » by Illuminaire » Sat Jun 26, 2021 1:11 am

likwitdesi wrote:Because the team will try to optimize with this pick around the 1-2 years left of Westbrook if they keep him. The team is close to the luxury tax and needs talent that can help immediately if it is to try to accomplish Ted's mandate of making the playoffs.


The Wizards made the playoffs this year and barely competed. Adding a rotation caliber player isn't taking them into contention, or even pseudo contention.

Drafting 24 year old ready to play rookies is a move to make when you are already set with your core. If you truly believe the Wizards core is good enough, then why do they suck so much?

If you agree the core is not set, why would you waste an opportunity to add a potential difference maker?
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Re: 2021 Draft thread. Woo! 15th pick here we come! Hoo. Ray. 

Post#1845 » by I_Like_Dirt » Sat Jun 26, 2021 1:34 am

Illuminaire wrote:
likwitdesi wrote:Because the team will try to optimize with this pick around the 1-2 years left of Westbrook if they keep him. The team is close to the luxury tax and needs talent that can help immediately if it is to try to accomplish Ted's mandate of making the playoffs.


The Wizards made the playoffs this year and barely competed. Adding a rotation caliber player isn't taking them into contention, or even pseudo contention.

Drafting 24 year old ready to play rookies is a move to make when you are already set with your core. If you truly believe the Wizards core is good enough, then why do they suck so much?

If you agree the core is not set, why would you waste an opportunity to add a potential difference maker?
I don't agree with this, either. Every year there are a handful of later picks that are often older prospects from lesser programs that pop up and surprise. The best young talent tends to go early while the older players sometimes get missed and can offer talent. But it's still about potential. They weren't 24 but guys like Malcolm Brogdon, Norman Powell, Jimmy Butler, Pascal Siakam, etc. all slipped through the cracks as older college players. There's significant value to be had there. It just has nothing to do with what they offer as rookies.

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Re: 2021 Draft thread. Woo! 15th pick here we come! Hoo. Ray. 

Post#1846 » by Illuminaire » Sat Jun 26, 2021 1:39 am

I_Like_Dirt wrote: There's significant value to be had there. It just has nothing to do with what they offer as rookies.



I can agree there are exceptions. However, I would challenge you to research how frequently those exceptions occur.

I've done that research. I've made spreadsheets of a couple of draft classes and compared their age at start to their eventual roster value. It isn't pretty for the older guys, and really, it's just common sense - they're further along on their basketball journey, and they've already gone through most of the development they are capable of doing.
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Re: 2021 Draft thread. Woo! 15th pick here we come! Hoo. Ray. 

Post#1847 » by I_Like_Dirt » Sat Jun 26, 2021 1:46 am

Illuminaire wrote:
I_Like_Dirt wrote: There's significant value to be had there. It just has nothing to do with what they offer as rookies.



I can agree there are exceptions. However, I would challenge you to research how frequently those exceptions occur.

I've done that research. I've made spreadsheets of a couple of draft classes and compared their age at start to their eventual roster value. It isn't pretty for the older guys, and really, it's just common sense - they're further along on their basketball journey, and they've already gone through most of the development they are capable of doing.
You've done that? I've done it too and come to the opposite conclusion. In the lottery? You want the younger guys most of the time - particularly at the very top. Outside of the lottery? It's disproportionately juniors/seniors in lesser scouted programs or transfers from such programs that scouts make up their mind early about, and international bigs.

I'd actually suggest it's common sense the other way around. The obvious young guys all go really early. There aren't that many of those kinds of players in any given year, though. And once you get past those guys, teams start reaching on younger players who haven't earned that faith and the results get ugly really fast. Things get particularly ugly for younger college players taken in the 2nd round. Older players get missed early on for a variety of reasons and teams have a better ability to assess whether they're willing to put in the work to grow their game year after year rather than plateau comfortably.
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Re: 2021 Draft thread. Woo! 15th pick here we come! Hoo. Ray. 

Post#1848 » by Dat2U » Sat Jun 26, 2021 2:17 am

pcbothwel wrote:
prime1time wrote:I had long take on Garuba, but I deleted it. The challenge that you're going to have when scouting a player like Garuba is something I've written about in past years. If you follow College Basketball and NBA basketball, you develop archtypes that you fit players into. Non-skilled bigs, athletic wings that lack skills, shooters that don't play defense etc. For the most part, if you stick to American players this analysis works. The challenge, however, is when you bring that same perspective o players from overseas. Garuba is a great example of this. Before I watched any tape I assumed he fit easily into the non-skilled big category. Perhaps a little undersized but he fit nevertheless. When I started watching him though something didn't add up. He was simply looked way too smooth and fluid to be an unskilled big.
Spoiler:
People are going to look at Garuba's euroleague tape and conclude that he's an high energy unskilled big because that's the role Real Madrid put him in. This was an 18-year-old playing with grown men. And the Euroleague is notorious for limiting what young players can do. Now that I've watched some tape of Garuba, he is vastly more than an unskilled big. And if you look at what Tommy has said about previous draft picks - Rui, Deni - he is most certainly the type of player we'd draft. Don't get it wrong now, Garuba's a ball of clay. But put in the right environment and having the right coaching he can develop into one of the best players of this draft.

;ab_channel=EUROLEAGUEBASKETBALL

Look at this clip. This is when Garuba was 17. He won MVP of the tournament over our own Deni Avdija. Look at the fluid play at 36 seconds. 2 dribbles reverse pivot and then comeback to the right hand hook. There are bigs that couldn't do that right now. Garuba was doing it at 17. I think to have a real perspective on Garuba you really have to watch stuff before his Euroleague. Euroleague so severely limited his game that it doesn't give an accurate depiction of what he's capable of. I'm going to watch more tape of Garuba and make a second post.

Needless to say, this kind of pick would be right in Sheppard's wheelhouse. For me, I'd be happy with the pick. He's way more offensively skilled than people realize and a end of games, he will give us a clear-cut advantage against teams with unskilled bigs. Not to mention his improving 3-point shot. Is it a risk? Yes. But players like this don't come along very often. Now I'm not saying that this is who Garuba will end up being, but to get some perspective on Garuba and how teams can miss on foreign players, look no further than Giannis. Now for every Giannis, there's a Bruno Caboclo, which is why it's important to do real scouting and dig deep into players.


Glad you're on board. Garuba, Wagner, Giddey are top 12 talents in the draft... and probably Top 8.
You said it better than I could have with Garuba. You put him in a archetype that doesnt quite fit.

That clip showed him on the glass and scoring, but I think his passing his thoroughly underrated. I think he's Draymond 2.0, and I wouldnt hesitate to take him. He's a day 1 contributor with huge upside as the 3rd/4th best player on a championship team.

One of my main hiccups about a Russ + 15 fNHor Simmons trade is Garuba.


I wish I could say I was on board. I'm not. I don't love the idea of drafting a 6-8 self check. 59% ft. 26% 3pt. Even AST/TO ratio. Limited handle. These are Michael Ruffin numbers!

The last thing the Wizards need is a low skilled player to crowd the paint with teams slacking off Russ and daring Rui to shoot 3s. Even if you think Garuba can eventually hit 3s. Teams will leave him wide open to prove he can do it consistently. There's no chance for him at PF... no skill. He's a C. A 6-8 one. Is he Ben Wallace or Dennis Rodman both once in a generation types as one-way HOF level players? Seems like a stretch.
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Re: 2021 Draft thread. Woo! 15th pick here we come! Hoo. Ray. 

Post#1849 » by SUPERBALLMAN » Sat Jun 26, 2021 2:29 am

Ok, the more I look at Deuce McBride the more I like. I absolutely want this guy on our team!



Draft Room:
PG – West Virginia – HT: 6-2 1/2 – WT: 195 – WING: 6-8 3/4 – So – A highly athletic lead guard who can really lock up opposing ball handlers and is emerging as an offensive threat. A leader on the court.

Draft Notes
McBride is a compact, strong and hard-nosed point guard with nice athletic ability and NBA level tools. He was one of the winners of the draft combine thanks to his impressive 6-8 3/4 wingspan.

He enjoyed a breakout sophomore season for the Mountaineers, scoring the ball at a nice clip, hitting his 3pt shots and taking over a leadership role on the team. He’s a point guard who can really score but he doesn’t need to be a ball dominant player to be effective.

McBride is a stout 1 on 1 defender who slides his feet well, has pesky hands and is a ball-hawk. He’s got a strong upper body and can body up to keep his man out of the lane and can guard up one or two positions thanks to his strength.

McBride projects as a Kyle Lowry type of player at the NBA level.



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Re: 2021 Draft thread. Woo! 15th pick here we come! Hoo. Ray. 

Post#1850 » by SUPERBALLMAN » Sat Jun 26, 2021 4:11 am

There are A LOT of trade down candidates......

Rockets at 23 & 24

Knicks at 19 & 21 & 32

Thunder 16 & 18 & 34 & 36

I'd love to swap 15 for the Knicks 19, 21, 32 if there was someone they want to move up for. A guy like Kispert or Duarte could fall to 19. If not Murphy should be there, or Thor. I'd love McBride at 21. 32 could add a big like Sims or Queta.

Or even the Thunder for 18, 34, 36...
Again maybe Duarte or Kispert drops, or Wagner, or Garuba. Or I'd be fine with McBride at 18. I'd be very happy with McBride, Wieskamp, Sims at those picks, for example.
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Re: 2021 Draft thread. Woo! 15th pick here we come! Hoo. Ray. 

Post#1851 » by SUPERBALLMAN » Sat Jun 26, 2021 4:28 am

Players I like at 15 (depending on who's still on the board)...

Kispert
Moody
Wagner
Garuba


Players I like further down in trade down...

McBride
Duarte
Butler
Murphy
Thor
Jackson
Wieskamp
Cooper
Sims
Queta
Bleijenbergh
Primo
Maker
Bassey
Garza
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Re: 2021 Draft thread. Woo! 15th pick here we come! Hoo. Ray. 

Post#1852 » by payitforward » Sat Jun 26, 2021 2:23 pm

Ruzious wrote:Joe Wiescamp is shocking me with his length and supposedly a 42 inch vertical. Looks like a clone of Duncan Robinson with more length and leaping ability. He's making money at the combine....

Wieskamp looks like a lock to be a productive NBA player -- his numbers vs high-level competition were absolutely outstanding.

Thomas looks extremely promising too! As a Freshman, he took 20+ shots & 9 FTAs per 40 minutes. I conclude that the coach told him to dominate the offense. His efficiency was good not great, but... he was doing this as a Freshman! The rest of his numbers are a little bit worrisome, but if I could get him with a low R1 pick...? Absolutely!!

If either of these guys is there high in R2, I'd do anything possible to buy a pick.
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Re: 2021 Draft thread. Woo! 15th pick here we come! Hoo. Ray. 

Post#1853 » by payitforward » Sat Jun 26, 2021 2:31 pm

SUPERBALLMAN wrote:
Frichuela wrote:
mhd wrote:Hypothetically, if Houston offered 23+24 for 15, would you do it?

Yes. 100%

Yes.

Just catching up here...

This would be a no-brainer, of course. But... no one is accepting an exchange of that kind. I.e. Houston would be able to get more than 15 for 23 & 24 -- #12 seems a more appropriate get.

Now... maybe they'd like to take a flyer on Chandler Hutchison?? -- #15 & Hutch for #s 23 & 24 might work?
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Re: 2021 Draft thread. Woo! 15th pick here we come! Hoo. Ray. 

Post#1854 » by payitforward » Sat Jun 26, 2021 2:45 pm

likwitdesi wrote:
NatP4 wrote:Everything about that is just bad process. Drafting for fit, building around a 33 year old that relies on athleticism exclusively, trying to squeeze into the 8 seed.

Yikes

I'm not saying I like it but we need to live in reality and not fantasy

Tommy Sheppard has said several times: "We will no longer sacrifice the future for a few more wins short term." Do we believe him or not?

Tommy has also said, "We are going to build this thing the right way -- patiently." Once again, should we believe him? Or not...?

Keep in mind that we don't have Russell Westbrook, because we decided to go out & build a team of veterans but because a decision was made that John Wall had to go, & Russ was the kind of guy we could get in a deal for John.

When we traded Troy Brown it wasn't for a veteran but rather a very promising young player. & last year we drafted a 19 year old.

Not saying I know what Tommy has in mind, but I don't think we can assume anything about Tommy's intentions -- or even about Ted's role here.

OTOH, you may be right! :)
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Re: 2021 Draft thread. Woo! 15th pick here we come! Hoo. Ray. 

Post#1855 » by payitforward » Sat Jun 26, 2021 2:57 pm

I_Like_Dirt wrote:
80sballboy wrote:Zaire Williams was supposed to be one of the best players in this year's draft. He did have a horrible season statistically, but he also went through some unforeseen circumstances including playing on the road most of the season at Stanford. Williams is a dude who should stay in school and develop, but who does that nowadays? Not when you are 6-10 (w/shoes) with a 39.5 inch vertical but just 188 pounds. Do you take a freakishly athletic guy and wait for him to develop when you have a need for a player to step into the rotation right away.

https://www.nbcsports.com/washington/wizards/wizards-interview-wings-jalen-johnson-and-ziaire-williams-nba-draft-combine
The Wizards don't have a need for a player to step into the rotation right away. Assuming Gafford is the backup C and they use the MLE on a guy worth a rotation spot, the top 8 is largely covered. They're looking to fill spots 9 through 15. And honestly, even if they weren't, fishing for an immediate impact guy in the draft is a fool's errand. Sometimes guys will play right away and sometimes they won't. It's a mistake to have that be a major factor in the decision. It's all about the quality and total of minutes they'll give teams over their careers. Most rookies aren't actually particularly good contributors in their rookie season anyway and that production could be replaced my minimum signings. It's all about development.

This is exactly on the money -- thanks for putting it so clearly!

edit -- more good sense by ILD. Outstanding!

I_Like_Dirt wrote:
Ruzious wrote:Otoh, getting a guy like Duarte - who will be 24 as a rookie - might be smart....

I mean, it sort of depends on the player and that's why you do scouting and interviews and workouts and such. ...you take Duarte not because he helps next season but because he's going to help the next several seasons and anyone further away would need to surpass him sooner than later to achieve that end.

...Getting it right is important.

...Jae'Sean Tate was great for Houston last season. There are also undrafted options to fill in the gaps if a person is so inclined. Worrying about a draft pick being more than a fringe player at best in year 1 is to focus on the wrong thing.
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Re: 2021 Draft thread. Woo! 15th pick here we come! Hoo. Ray. 

Post#1856 » by payitforward » Sat Jun 26, 2021 4:02 pm

I_Like_Dirt wrote:
Illuminaire wrote:
likwitdesi wrote:Because the team will try to optimize with this pick around the 1-2 years left of Westbrook if they keep him. The team is close to the luxury tax and needs talent that can help immediately if it is to try to accomplish Ted's mandate of making the playoffs.


The Wizards made the playoffs this year and barely competed. Adding a rotation caliber player isn't taking them into contention, or even pseudo contention.

Drafting 24 year old ready to play rookies is a move to make when you are already set with your core. If you truly believe the Wizards core is good enough, then why do they suck so much?

If you agree the core is not set, why would you waste an opportunity to add a potential difference maker?
I don't agree with this, either. Every year there are a handful of later picks that are often older prospects from lesser programs that pop up and surprise. The best young talent tends to go early while the older players sometimes get missed and can offer talent. But it's still about potential. They weren't 24 but guys like Malcolm Brogdon, Norman Powell, Jimmy Butler, Pascal Siakam, etc. all slipped through the cracks as older college players. There's significant value to be had there. It just has nothing to do with what they offer as rookies.

It's usually a pretty big "handful" too. & plenty of them hit the ground running their rookie year as well -- Jimmy Butler, Draymond... the list is long. The idea that all or even most of the talent in the draft is up near the top is one of the great myths.
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Re: 2021 Draft thread. Woo! 15th pick here we come! Hoo. Ray. 

Post#1857 » by payitforward » Sat Jun 26, 2021 6:24 pm

SUPERBALLMAN wrote:There are A LOT of trade down candidates......

Rockets at 23 & 24

Knicks at 19 & 21 & 32

Thunder 16 & 18 & 34 & 36

I'd love to swap 15 for the Knicks 19, 21, 32 if there was someone they want to move up for. A guy like Kispert or Duarte could fall to 19. If not Murphy should be there, or Thor. I'd love McBride at 21. 32 could add a big like Sims or Queta.

Or even the Thunder for 18, 34, 36...
Again maybe Duarte or Kispert drops, or Wagner, or Garuba. Or I'd be fine with McBride at 18. I'd be very happy with McBride, Wieskamp, Sims at those picks, for example.

Those are all very optimistic pick swaps you're suggesting! Would be great, but I don't even think we'd get the Thunder's 18, 34 & 36 for our #15. In fact, 18 & 36 would be a very good get in return for our #15.

A lot depends who's on the board at 15, of course -- but in principle I'd take the Knicks #21 & 32 for #15. I'd be elated if it were #19 & #32.
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Re: 2021 Draft thread. Woo! 15th pick here we come! Hoo. Ray. 

Post#1858 » by doclinkin » Sun Jun 27, 2021 2:57 am

Ruzious wrote:
I_Like_Dirt wrote:The Wizards don't have a need for a player to step into the rotation right away. Assuming Gafford is the backup C and they use the MLE on a guy worth a rotation spot, the top 8 is largely covered. They're looking to fill spots 9 through 15. And honestly, even if they weren't, fishing for an immediate impact guy in the draft is a fool's errand. Sometimes guys will play right away and sometimes they won't. It's a mistake to have that be a major factor in the decision. It's all about the quality and total of minutes they'll give teams over their careers. Most rookies aren't actually particularly good contributors in their rookie season anyway and that production could be replaced my minimum signings. It's all about development.

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Otoh, getting a guy like Duarte - who will be 24 as a rookie - might be smart, because he's likely going to be more developed as a rookie. The 19 year olds in this draft might have more long-range potential but probably won't be useful as rookies. I don't really want a Zaire Williams till his 2nd contract, tbh.


Right. Absent a guy falling who is too talented to pass, I have no problem selecting Chris Duarte. Especially if I can get him on a trade back.

An "Immediate impact guy" simply means you are recruiting a player who will give you a quick return on your 'dollar-for-minutes-played' ratio. It seems half stupid to me to sneer at a guy who already knows how to play the game of basketball in favor of a player who might someday be good. As if the player who has shown a proven track record of improvement will somehow stop developing and remain frozen at their current (high) level.

Chris Duarte has had some zigzags in his pre-Div I career, and learned from them. He met his challenges and exceeded expectations, to the extent where he was among the tops in the NCAA in true shooting% on high output. This while being notably disruptive on defense. Guards who post high %'s in efficiency tend to translate, and if they play defense then they tend to get minutes. They continue to develop because they have a role waiting for them and get live-fire reps in meaningful moments.

Successful franchises find ways of maximizing their opportunities. Some part of that includes finding guys who outperform their draft slot. Drafting outside the lottery means you are finding guys who are not sure-fire locks to become all-NBA. Teams that build a foundation with hardworking smart players who already have a role in the NBA are teams that won't struggle to find an identity. Or burn out too many developmental guys who don't yet know how to play at all, much less play together. The primary knock on Duarte is that he is older than the guys who will be drafted ahead of him. He gets knocked down a peg because he had to take a hard route to national notice. But he wasn't scoring at that rate due to his age. He scores because he plays the game the right way. He works hard. He reads the defense. To me there is nothing wrong with picking a player who actually has a position open for them. Yes we don't have the luxury of simply drafting for need. Need still goes into the equation, since otherwise you are devaluing the asset by recruiting a guy who will fight for minutes behind players you already have at the position.

But that's not the reason you pick him. You pick him because he is a damn good player. If you could, wouldn't you draft the 24 year old Bradley Beal if he was available in the 2018 draft? Because (at the D1 level) Duarte is the closest equivalent I have seen to Brad Beal in the package of shots he has in his bag. Stylistically he is very very similar to the age 24 Brad. Slightly worse handle and passing, significantly better defense. But the shots he takes and makes are Beal-esque.

I get the sense there will be a majority of players selected before Chris Duarte who will not have half his career longevity & success, nor minutes played. He's got a floater, hesitation dribble, teardrop, outside shot with quickness confidence and range; he anticipates plays and makes smart sharp timely cuts. He has the old man's game that (similarly high% scorer) Harden came into the league with, able to outsmart his opponents and make the right read. 2nd most efficient shooter off the dribble in the NCAA this year. AND he also plays defense, with high effort and intelligent play. He anticipates well for steals, but he also helps well in team defense. He looks like a bargain Klay Thompson, but distinct from Klay he also can create for himself off the dribble. It's more than just 3&D, he makes smart cuts.

This team, ANY team, can use a finisher and that 'go get a bucket' guy who can score efficiently. Referees are less likely to blow whistles on smooth scorers. He has room to get stronger, finish through contact instead of avoiding it, but having those shots already in his bag is going to help him against bigger faster competition.

Longterm I don't think fans of the team that selects him will be disappointed in the output of Chris Duarte for their team. We are still waiting on hypertalent Rui to learn the game. Deni struggled to finish, or find a role on the team. Duarte already learned his hard lessons, getting the ball in the basket is what he does. Selecting a guy who already knows how to play the game is not really the wrong way to improve. The fact that it looks like there IS synergy with the guys we already have on the team should be a positive, not a mark against drafting him. The man can play:



Moot point though, he doesn't fit the Tommy profile so we surely won't draft him.
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Re: 2021 Draft thread. Woo! 15th pick here we come! Hoo. Ray. 

Post#1859 » by FAH1223 » Sun Jun 27, 2021 9:09 am

doclinkin wrote:
Ruzious wrote:
I_Like_Dirt wrote:The Wizards don't have a need for a player to step into the rotation right away. Assuming Gafford is the backup C and they use the MLE on a guy worth a rotation spot, the top 8 is largely covered. They're looking to fill spots 9 through 15. And honestly, even if they weren't, fishing for an immediate impact guy in the draft is a fool's errand. Sometimes guys will play right away and sometimes they won't. It's a mistake to have that be a major factor in the decision. It's all about the quality and total of minutes they'll give teams over their careers. Most rookies aren't actually particularly good contributors in their rookie season anyway and that production could be replaced my minimum signings. It's all about development.

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Otoh, getting a guy like Duarte - who will be 24 as a rookie - might be smart, because he's likely going to be more developed as a rookie. The 19 year olds in this draft might have more long-range potential but probably won't be useful as rookies. I don't really want a Zaire Williams till his 2nd contract, tbh.


Right. Absent a guy falling who is too talented to pass, I have no problem selecting Chris Duarte. Especially if I can get him on a trade back.

An "Immediate impact guy" simply means you are recruiting a player who will give you a quick return on your 'dollar-for-minutes-played' ratio. It seems half stupid to me to sneer at a guy who already knows how to play the game of basketball in favor of a player who might someday be good. As if the player who has shown a proven track record of improvement will somehow stop developing and remain frozen at their current (high) level.

Chris Duarte has had some zigzags in his pre-Div I career, and learned from them. He met his challenges and exceeded expectations, to the extent where he was among the tops in the NCAA in true shooting% on high output. This while being notably disruptive on defense. Guards who post high %'s in efficiency tend to translate, and if they play defense then they tend to get minutes. They continue to develop because they have a role waiting for them and get live-fire reps in meaningful moments.

Successful franchises find ways of maximizing their opportunities. Some part of that includes finding guys who outperform their draft slot. Drafting outside the lottery means you are finding guys who are not sure-fire locks to become all-NBA. Teams that build a foundation with hardworking smart players who already have a role in the NBA are teams that won't struggle to find an identity. Or burnout too many developmental guys ho don't yet know how to play at all, much less play together. The primary knock on Duarte is that he is older than the guys who will be drafted ahead of him. He gets knocked down a peg because he had to take a hard route to national notice. But he wasn't scoring at that rate due to his age. He scores because he plays the game the right way. He works hard. He reads the defense. To me there is nothing wrong with picking a player who actually has a position open for them. Yes we don't have the luxury of simply drafting for need. Need still goes into the equation, since otherwise you are devaluing the asset by recruiting a guy who will fight for minutes behind players you already have at the position.

But that's not the reason you pick him. You pick him because he is a damn good player. If you could, wouldn't you draft the 24 year old Bradley Beal if he was available in the 2018 draft? Because (at the D1 level) Duarte is the closest equivalent I have seen to Brad Beal in the package of shots he has in his bag. Stylistically he is very very similar to the age 24 Brad. Slightly worse handle and passing, significantly better defense. But the shots he takes and makes are Beal-esque.

I get the sense there will be a majority of players selected before Chris Duarte who will not have half his career longevity & success, nor minutes played. He's got a floater, hesitation dribble, teardrop, outside shot with quickness confidence and range; he anticipates plays and makes smart sharp timely cuts. He has the old man's game that (similarly high% scorer) Harden came into the league with, able to outsmart his opponents and make the right read. 2nd most efficient shooter off the dribble in the NCAA this year. AND he also plays defense, with high effort and intelligent play. He anticipates well for steals, but he also helps well in team defense. He looks like a bargain Klay Thompson, but distinct from Klay he also can create for himself off the dribble. It's more than just 3&D, he makes smart cuts.

This team, ANY team, can use a finisher and that 'go get a bucket' guy who can score efficiently. Referees are less likely to blow whistles on smooth scorers. He has room to get stronger, finish through contact instead of avoiding it, but having those shots already in his bag is going to help him against bigger faster competition.

Longterm I don't think fans of the team that selects him will be disappointed in the output of Chris Duarte for their team. We are still waiting on hypertalent Rui to learn the game. Deni struggled to finish, or find a role on the team. Duarte already learned his hard lessons, getting the ball in the basket is what he does. Selecting a guy who already knows how to play the game is not really the wrong way to improve. The fact that it looks like there IS synergy with the guys we already have on the team should be a positive, not a mark against drafting him. The man can play:



Moot point though, he doesn't fit the Tommy profile so we surely won't draft him.


I've been thinking of just taking Duarte at 15 for all the reasons you said. Tommy's fetish for foreign players or raw guys is so fukking annoying though.
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Re: 2021 Draft thread. Woo! 15th pick here we come! Hoo. Ray. 

Post#1860 » by payitforward » Sun Jun 27, 2021 1:59 pm

You can drive yourself nuts trying to figure out who the one "right" player is to pick at a particular spot. All the more if you try to work out in the abstract whether "it's better to pick an older player later or a younger player sooner or someone in the middle in the middle."

The goal in the draft should be to add the most value to your team. To illustrate how hard it is to achieve anything near that goal when you have only 1 pick to work with, ask yourself how good a player you are likely to get with one of the highest picks in the draft, one of the top four picks!

Here are the 40 guys picked from #1-4 in the 10 drafts from 2009-2018. I've divided them into 3 categories:

Top 15% of players in the league or better -- all the way up to stars:
Spoiler:
Blake Griffin (#1)
James Harden (#3)
John Wall (#1)
Kyrie Irving (#1)
Derrick Favors (#3)
Anthony Davis (#1)
Bradley Beal (#3)
Victor Oladipo (#2)
Joel Embiid (#3)
Karl-Anthony Towns (#1)
Ben Simmons (#1)
Brandon Ingram (#2)
Jaylen Brown (#3)
Jayson Tatum (#3)
Luka Doncic (#3)
(15 players – 6 #1 picks)
Busts -- guys who had (or are still having) bad careers. These guys are/were not good NBA players at all:
Spoiler:
Hasheem Thabeet (#2)
Evan Turner (#2)
Wesley Johnson (#4)
Derrick Williams (#2)
Michael Kidd-Gilchrist (#2)
Dion Waiters (#4)
Anthony Bennett (#1)
Andrew Wiggins (#1)
Jabari Parker (#2)
Jahlil Okafor (#3)
Dragan Bender (#4)
Josh Jackson (#4)
Marvin Bagley (#2)
Tyreke Evans (#4)
(14 players – 2 #1 picks)
Middle of the pack. This is the widest range, of course. Some have had a little success then declined; others someone might still be hoping for. But no one would call them unqualified successes:
Spoiler:
Tristan Thompson (#4)
Otto Porter (#3)
Cody Zeller (#4)
Aaron Gordon (#4)
D’Angelo Russell (#2)
Kristaps Porzingis (#4)
Markell Fultz (#1)
Lonzo Ball (#2)
DeAndre Ayton (#1)
Jarren Jackson (#4)
(11 players – 2 #1 picks)
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