ImageImageImageImageImage

Woj - Westbrook for Wall and 1st Rounder

Moderators: LyricalRico, nate33, montestewart

Hussien Fatal
Bench Warmer
Posts: 1,498
And1: 383
Joined: Jul 07, 2006
Location: N-E-W Jers where plenty murders occur

Re: Woj - Westbrook for Wall and 1st Rounder 

Post#421 » by Hussien Fatal » Thu Jan 7, 2021 4:04 pm

tontoz wrote:Maybe we are reading this trade all wrong. Maybe they brought in Westbrook to be the tank commander. Brooks is making his contribution with the wacky lineups.

Could they be playing 5d chess, executing a stealth tank?


You don’t trade 1st round draft picks for “tank commanders”. No this was not a stealth tank move. They honestly thought Westbrook would make them better and more money obviously.
They call me Hussien Fatal its a two game table im robbin you **** cradle wit a knife in your navel....
User avatar
TGW
RealGM
Posts: 10,085
And1: 3,682
Joined: Oct 22, 2010

Re: Woj - Westbrook for Wall and 1st Rounder 

Post#422 » by TGW » Thu Jan 7, 2021 4:14 pm

Hussien Fatal wrote:
tontoz wrote:Maybe we are reading this trade all wrong. Maybe they brought in Westbrook to be the tank commander. Brooks is making his contribution with the wacky lineups.

Could they be playing 5d chess, executing a stealth tank?


You don’t trade 1st round draft picks for “tank commanders”. No this was not a stealth tank move. They honestly thought Westbrook would make them better and more money obviously.


I don't think he was being serious man.

OUTLAWZ
Some random troll wrote:Not to sound negative, but this team is owned by an arrogant cheapskate, managed by a moron and coached by an idiot. Recipe for disaster.
NatP4
General Manager
Posts: 9,448
And1: 2,838
Joined: Jul 24, 2016
         

Re: Woj - Westbrook for Wall and 1st Rounder 

Post#423 » by NatP4 » Thu Jan 7, 2021 4:17 pm

They would’ve had to attach a 1st or multiple 1sts to Walls contract to move him anywhere, a few 20 point performances to start the season does not change that. They wanted leadership and it was time to move on from Wall. It was as much a culture move as it was an on court move. People need to wait until atleast the trade deadline to assess. There was also the reports about Beal and Wall being done with each other and the reports of Wall demanding a trade which Wall chose not to refute at all when asked. It was going to be a huge distraction going into the season.

I would rather have the 1st round pick and Haliburton as of now, but Haliburton would be collecting DNPs right now with Wall still on the roster. Westbrook does not look anywhere near as explosive as he did in the last few years. I’m not sure if we have even seen him dunk once.
User avatar
tontoz
RealGM
Posts: 17,102
And1: 2,638
Joined: Apr 11, 2005

Re: Woj - Westbrook for Wall and 1st Rounder 

Post#424 » by tontoz » Thu Jan 7, 2021 4:17 pm

I guess i should have used green font.
"bulky agile perimeter bone crunch pick setting draymond green" WizD
User avatar
queridiculo
RealGM
Posts: 14,834
And1: 6,184
Joined: Mar 29, 2005
Location: Maximum Pain Zone
   

Re: Woj - Westbrook for Wall and 1st Rounder 

Post#425 » by queridiculo » Thu Jan 7, 2021 4:18 pm

Hussien Fatal wrote:
tontoz wrote:Maybe we are reading this trade all wrong. Maybe they brought in Westbrook to be the tank commander. Brooks is making his contribution with the wacky lineups.

Could they be playing 5d chess, executing a stealth tank?


You don’t trade 1st round draft picks for “tank commanders”. No this was not a stealth tank move. They honestly thought Westbrook would make them better and more money obviously.


Looking at the protections of this first rounder this move is basically a short term gamble, but the fact Washington included the first rounder at all is an admission that they really wanted to see this move through either for basketball reasons or personal reasons.

Washington had all the leverage in the world. There was no market for Westbrook that would have netted the Rockets any selection beyond perhaps a symbolic 2nd rounder, much less a productive player.
User avatar
queridiculo
RealGM
Posts: 14,834
And1: 6,184
Joined: Mar 29, 2005
Location: Maximum Pain Zone
   

Re: Woj - Westbrook for Wall and 1st Rounder 

Post#426 » by queridiculo » Thu Jan 7, 2021 4:26 pm

Shanghai Kid wrote:Wall is now averaging 23/5/5 on 57% TS.

He took only two midrange shots last night out of 20, everything else was going to the basket or 3s.

In all honesty I think most of us were expecting a bit washed version of Wall who because of reduced athletecism had to relied on his jumper. Idk how, but hes as good going to the basket as hes ever been.

All that said, John still seems lost without the ball and is still turnover happy.


Honestly, what's shocking to me more than anything, Westbrook being such a non-factor on the dribble drive.

Either Westbrook is hurt, or he's just diminished to the point of being done as a threat attacking the basket in one-on-one situations, which immediately makes him a way bigger liability off the ball than Wall could ever dream to be.
User avatar
queridiculo
RealGM
Posts: 14,834
And1: 6,184
Joined: Mar 29, 2005
Location: Maximum Pain Zone
   

Re: Woj - Westbrook for Wall and 1st Rounder 

Post#427 » by queridiculo » Thu Jan 7, 2021 4:27 pm

Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:You had to foresee the so Wizards in the not even waiting until a few games into this season to make a deal. Leonsis’ emotional knee jerk after the gang signs was no different than Abe Pollin going stupid and dealing Chris Webber over some weed.


To be fair, it was the rape allegation that sent this over the top, but in Abe's mind Howard and Webber were obviously guilty, and only one of them had any trade value.
User avatar
nate33
Forum Mod - Wizards
Forum Mod - Wizards
Posts: 57,400
And1: 10,669
Joined: Oct 28, 2002

Re: Woj - Westbrook for Wall and 1st Rounder 

Post#428 » by nate33 » Thu Jan 7, 2021 4:31 pm

Wall is currently playing better than Westbrook. That much is not in dispute.

That said, I don't have a lot of confidence in Wall remaining disciplined and hard-working on defense. Particularly when he is alongside Harden, who sets a terrible example. Let's see how the Rockets look in February before we start condemning the trade.
NatP4
General Manager
Posts: 9,448
And1: 2,838
Joined: Jul 24, 2016
         

Re: Woj - Westbrook for Wall and 1st Rounder 

Post#429 » by NatP4 » Thu Jan 7, 2021 4:46 pm

I think a couple things can be true, I think we needed to move on from Wall regardless, and it was going to take assets to do so. At the same time, I wouldn’t mind watching us commit to playing young players and giving them bigger roles, while a couple role player game manager PGs like Neto and Ish run the show, or even some time for Winston. Have any of us been displeased with watching Neto start at PG? We have been pretty good in those lineups. I would much rather not have Westbrook or Wall.

Westbrook takes so many shots and possessions away from Deni, Rui, Bryant, Bonga, Brown Jr, and everyone else. He has still been a net positive player and brought leadership(I guess), but we are so obviously committed to the present and winning now, everything is so backwards. People who were displeased with this trade wanted to see more of an actual plan with an eye to the future, this is as far from it as we could possibly be.
Shanghai Kid
General Manager
Posts: 9,006
And1: 1,301
Joined: Jun 26, 2003

Re: Woj - Westbrook for Wall and 1st Rounder 

Post#430 » by Shanghai Kid » Thu Jan 7, 2021 4:56 pm

NatP4 wrote:I think a couple things can be true, I think we needed to move on from Wall regardless, and it was going to take assets to do so. At the same time, I wouldn’t mind watching us commit to playing young players and giving them bigger roles, while a couple role player game manager PGs like Neto and Ish run the show, or even some time for Winston. Have any of us been displeased with watching Neto start at PG? We have been pretty good in those lineups. I would much rather not have Westbrook or Wall.

Westbrook takes so many shots and possessions away from Deni, Rui, Bryant, Bonga, Brown Jr, and everyone else. He has still been a net positive player and brought leadership(I guess), but we are so obviously committed to the present and winning now, everything is so backwards. People who were displeased with this trade wanted to see more of an actual plan with an eye to the future, this is as far from it as we could possibly be.


IF Wall is no longer an injury concern, and that's a BIG if, his timeline as a good player still matches up with Beal's timeline. He could easily project as a 20ppg 2nd/3rd option for the next 4-5 seasons. IF he maintains this career high efficiency, then he will be a positive asset again sooner than later.

Would we have hurt development of the young players and the culture? Houston has had nothing but positive things to say about John, we really don't know if this version of John is a more mature leader, it's been two years. Could him and Beal stll make it work?

I'm going to let the season run before I make any big conclusion. Westbrook doesn't look washed, but he's not the same guy as he was even two years ago. His 46% TS makes him maybe league worst efficiency for a starting guard in the league. John looks like his 2017 self, which for all of his faults, was an All-NBA player.
NatP4
General Manager
Posts: 9,448
And1: 2,838
Joined: Jul 24, 2016
         

Re: Woj - Westbrook for Wall and 1st Rounder 

Post#431 » by NatP4 » Thu Jan 7, 2021 5:03 pm

If Wall finishes the season with a .572 TS% that would be impressive. He has never come close to that figure in his career.
User avatar
Kanyewest
General Manager
Posts: 8,065
And1: 1,485
Joined: Jul 05, 2004

Re: Woj - Westbrook for Wall and 1st Rounder 

Post#432 » by Kanyewest » Thu Jan 7, 2021 6:34 pm

tontoz wrote:I guess i should have used green font.


I got it :D
User avatar
Kanyewest
General Manager
Posts: 8,065
And1: 1,485
Joined: Jul 05, 2004

Re: Woj - Westbrook for Wall and 1st Rounder 

Post#433 » by Kanyewest » Thu Jan 7, 2021 6:39 pm

nate33 wrote:Wall is currently playing better than Westbrook. That much is not in dispute.

That said, I don't have a lot of confidence in Wall remaining disciplined and hard-working on defense. Particularly when he is alongside Harden, who sets a terrible example. Let's see how the Rockets look in February before we start condemning the trade.


It's pretty crazy to be honest especially since Westbrook has 4 triple doubles but it is true because Westbrook has been turnover prone, takes terrible shots and compounds it by not getting bad on defense.
Wizardspride
RealGM
Posts: 13,425
And1: 7,723
Joined: Nov 05, 2004
Location: Olney, MD/Kailua/Kaneohe, HI
       

Re: Woj - Westbrook for Wall and 1st Rounder 

Post#434 » by Wizardspride » Thu Jan 7, 2021 7:30 pm

nate33 wrote:Wall is currently playing better than Westbrook. That much is not in dispute.

That said, I don't have a lot of confidence in Wall remaining disciplined and hard-working on defense. Particularly when he is alongside Harden, who sets a terrible example. Let's see how the Rockets look in February before we start condemning the trade.

I'm willing to condemn the trade because this imo, isn't just a matter of "John playing better than Westbrook right now".

What Westbrook has lost he ain't getting back...and that's explosiveness.... :dontknow:
President Trump told two senior Russian officials in a 2017 Oval Office meeting that he was unconcerned about Moscow’s interference in the 2016 U.S. presidential election because the United States did the same in other countries
User avatar
doclinkin
RealGM
Posts: 10,302
And1: 2,445
Joined: Jul 26, 2004
Location: .wizuds.

Re: Woj - Westbrook for Wall and 1st Rounder 

Post#435 » by doclinkin » Thu Jan 7, 2021 7:55 pm

Wizardspride wrote:
nate33 wrote:Wall is currently playing better than Westbrook. That much is not in dispute.

That said, I don't have a lot of confidence in Wall remaining disciplined and hard-working on defense. Particularly when he is alongside Harden, who sets a terrible example. Let's see how the Rockets look in February before we start condemning the trade.

I'm willing to condemn the trade because this imo, isn't just a matter of "John playing better than Westbrook right now".

What Westbrook has lost he ain't getting back...and that's explosiveness.... :dontknow:



In addition a rehabilitated Wall, playing like he is now, would have had greater trade value than the Westbrook we have now. We traded low. If we had patience and waited, if Westbrook was the move we wanted, we could have swapped the two and RECEIVED assets in the deal. Wall still would have mystique as a player who perhaps would do better for another team, another coach, another system. In addition many of his turnovers have to do with trying to fit into a new system, but this team was assembled with Wall in mind. He has been studying these players for a year or more, he showed he played well with Bryant, he knows how to play with Beal. If he was playing here and we determined it wasn't enough, okay, we could have traded him to a team that wanted him, with more suitors than a flailing Houston. Frankly we rewarded Houston for underhanded tactics and played ourselves for suckers in league front offices. All because Ted had a hissy fit.

For all that Westbrook offcourt is lauded as a culture changing factor in the locker room, on court he is a culture changer in a negative way. He is not censured for jacking bad shots, his defense is iffy, and his on court effect under Brooks is problematic in terms of player development. Avdija loses touches to an inefficient stat padding gunner. Bonga is buried on the bench for not being a cheerleader. Brown has no role on the team since he has difficulty playing next to a guy with a sky high usage rate. But there is nobody clamoring for Russ since teams have seen his decline in attacking the hoop, and he has already been jettisoned by 2 teams, whatever his supposed locker room intangibles.

In addition it speaks to our team's loyalty and family perception. Russ may be a good guy, but John was our guy. Players notice and respect those sorts of things that elevate a team above 'simply business'. Ted did it wrong. Tommy should not have been pressured to make that change.
User avatar
Kanyewest
General Manager
Posts: 8,065
And1: 1,485
Joined: Jul 05, 2004

Re: Woj - Westbrook for Wall and 1st Rounder 

Post#436 » by Kanyewest » Thu Jan 7, 2021 9:31 pm

Wizardspride wrote:
nate33 wrote:Wall is currently playing better than Westbrook. That much is not in dispute.

That said, I don't have a lot of confidence in Wall remaining disciplined and hard-working on defense. Particularly when he is alongside Harden, who sets a terrible example. Let's see how the Rockets look in February before we start condemning the trade.

I'm willing to condemn the trade because this imo, isn't just a matter of "John playing better than Westbrook right now".

What Westbrook has lost he ain't getting back...and that's explosiveness.... :dontknow:


I'm still hoping Westbrook regains his explosiveness as the season progresses. Westbrook did his play his best ball last season in February and March. At this moment of time, it's hard to be optimistic with his 46 TS%.
pcbothwel
Lead Assistant
Posts: 4,572
And1: 1,764
Joined: Jun 12, 2010
     

Re: Woj - Westbrook for Wall and 1st Rounder 

Post#437 » by pcbothwel » Thu Jan 7, 2021 9:48 pm

nate33 wrote:Wall is currently playing better than Westbrook. That much is not in dispute.

That said, I don't have a lot of confidence in Wall remaining disciplined and hard-working on defense. Particularly when he is alongside Harden, who sets a terrible example. Let's see how the Rockets look in February before we start condemning the trade.


Two things:
1) People need to get into the "dog days" before really assessing the trade because what nate states here. Wall is coming out trying to prove himself and is also well rested. As the day in-day out grind both physically and emotionally take their toll, lets see how much vigor Wall has on defense and relentlessness going to the basket.

2) Wall put Tommy and this organization in a bad spot. At every turn the Wizards organization, for all their faults, went above and beyond in showing Wall he was a priority. We drafted him #1 overall in the draft without hesitation. We gave him the keys to the franchise.
After the 2012-13 season, We gave him a max extension a full year earlier than necessary even after the previous year he incurred a knee injury.
After the 2016/17 season, we gave him the Full DPE Max while having 2 years left on his deal.
Again, we paid him the most money he was able to make, at the earliest time he could get it. EVERY. TIME.

Yet, he felt the need to act like good role player/3rd star. We paid him $150M for 10 years. I cant think of a player that has made more and done less... sorry, but its true. When his contract ends, he'll have made $280M in salary alone...for what? Best comp would be Blake Griffin, but he matched Walls peak while doing it a half dozen times.

On paper, yes, wall has surpassed Westbrook it appears. But I just cant blame the organization for purging itself and resetting behind Beal.
User avatar
Meliorus
Analyst
Posts: 3,614
And1: 1,153
Joined: Apr 16, 2015
 

Re: Woj - Westbrook for Wall and 1st Rounder 

Post#438 » by Meliorus » Thu Jan 7, 2021 9:57 pm

I think Westbrook has been pretty good the past 2 games on defense. He makes a few plays that kinda cost the game but he also makes plays to get us back into it. Westbrook has lost athleticism, and he doesn't go up for dunks anymore, but why did we expect something different? He's 32.

I think Houston is the first time Wall has really had a lot of open driving lanes. He's the type of player who should almost exclusively drive the rim, and last game he literally made like 12 layups (counting). Last game, I believe almost every FG was a layup; that boggles my mind. Whether this is sustainable on his body, who knows. But you watch the way Wall scores right now and it's just so easy. He's so fast that the layups are so open. I do believe that he can drive more because his bone spurts are gone, and I do believe the bone spurts were a real issue for him in DC. Wall has been trying on defense, and has gotten the applause of many fans on ClutchFans saying he's one of the only guys playing good defense.

I really do wish we gave Beal and Wall another shot this year.
User avatar
Meliorus
Analyst
Posts: 3,614
And1: 1,153
Joined: Apr 16, 2015
 

Re: Woj - Westbrook for Wall and 1st Rounder 

Post#439 » by Meliorus » Sat Jan 9, 2021 5:23 pm

Read on Twitter
?s=21

Bone spurts were a problem.
User avatar
tontoz
RealGM
Posts: 17,102
And1: 2,638
Joined: Apr 11, 2005

Re: Woj - Westbrook for Wall and 1st Rounder 

Post#440 » by tontoz » Sat Jan 9, 2021 5:51 pm

In his last two games he has 13 turnovers. That is just inexcusable for a veteran.
"bulky agile perimeter bone crunch pick setting draymond green" WizD

Return to Washington Wizards