ImageImageImageImageImage

Triple Double King Russell Westbrook Appreciation Thread.

Moderators: montestewart, LyricalRico, nate33

Ruzious
Forum Mod
Forum Mod
Posts: 44,174
And1: 8,883
Joined: Jul 17, 2001
       

Re: Russell Westbrook in DC Appreciation Thread. 

Post#101 » by Ruzious » Fri Mar 26, 2021 7:54 pm

Russ, try limiting your jump shots to 5 a game max and no more 3's. See what happens. Cuz what you're doing right now - it ain't working. Follow what Jimmy Butler does - what he did last season. When you took 2 straight 25 footers against the Knicks last night during crunch time, that epitomized everything you've done wrong - can't happen again. We'll even live with the turnovers if you at least eliminate the terrible shot selection, because we know you do a lot of good things out there. Work with us on this, or... go away.
"Look, you never know when you may need to borrow a cup of sugar, maybe some milk or a handgun" - Dan C. from Texas
User avatar
nate33
Forum Mod - Wizards
Forum Mod - Wizards
Posts: 59,696
And1: 12,382
Joined: Oct 28, 2002

Re: Russell Westbrook in DC Appreciation Thread. 

Post#102 » by nate33 » Fri Mar 26, 2021 8:41 pm

Ruzious wrote:Russ, try limiting your jump shots to 5 a game max and no more 3's. See what happens. Cuz what you're doing right now - it ain't working. Follow what Jimmy Butler does - what he did last season. When you took 2 straight 25 footers against the Knicks last night during crunch time, that epitomized everything you've done wrong - can't happen again. We'll even live with the turnovers if you at least eliminate the terrible shot selection, because we know you do a lot of good things out there. Work with us on this, or... go away.

He should just never shoot outside the lane unless there's no more than 3 seconds on the clock. NEVER!

Satoransky did this when John Wall went down and Sato didn't yet have confidence in his jumper. He NEVER shot the ball except for floaters in the lane. I was always amazed that, even when he had the ball with 3 seconds left, he somehow managed to unload it to someone else for a good look or even make a hockey assist. Those last 3 seconds are a lot longer than you think.
User avatar
nate33
Forum Mod - Wizards
Forum Mod - Wizards
Posts: 59,696
And1: 12,382
Joined: Oct 28, 2002

Re: Russell Westbrook in DC Appreciation Thread. 

Post#103 » by nate33 » Sat Mar 27, 2021 5:12 pm

Westbrook's rebounding came up in a discussion on the trade thread, so I went and looked at the numbers.

I was surprised to discover that the team actually rebounds MUCH worse when Westbrook is on the floor. The team posts a TRB% of 46.7% when Westbrook is on the floor. Teams are killing us on the glass, getting 53.3% of the available rebounds to our 46.7%. But when Westbrook sits, we actually outrebound the opposition just barely, 50.1% to 49.9%.

It's worth nothing that the disparity is almost completely due to offensive rebounds. The Wizards grab 76.1% of the available defensive boards when Westbrook is in the game, and 77.5% when he is out. But they grab just 18.0% of the offensive boards with Westbrook in the game and 23.1% when he is out.

I thought maybe it was because Russ plays more with bad rebounders. So I went and looked at the player combination numbers for our best rebounders (Hachimura, Lopez, Avdija, Wagner, Len). As it turns out, for all of them except Len, the team rebounds better when they are on the floor without Westbrook than they do with him. (And for Len, it goes the other way, but only just a little.)

The bottom line is that Westbrook's rebounding looks to be a mirage. All those rebounds he gets in his personal box score are, for whatever reason, not contributing to the net total of the team rebounds. His presence actually makes the team rebound worse. My theory is that teams pack the paint when Westbrook is in the game, making offensive rebounding almost impossible (which is where the big disparity is). And the defensive rebounding that Westbrook provides are exclusively rebounds stolen from teammates. The team would probably be better off if Westbrook would leak out to receive a pass from a defensive rebounding teammate rather than go all the way back to the rim and grab the rebound himself. It would lead to more transition opportunities.
prime1time
Starter
Posts: 2,449
And1: 1,283
Joined: Nov 02, 2016
         

Re: Russell Westbrook in DC Appreciation Thread. 

Post#104 » by prime1time » Sat Mar 27, 2021 5:21 pm

nate33 wrote:Westbrook's rebounding came up in a discussion on the trade thread, so I went and looked at the numbers.

I was surprised to discover that the team actually rebounds MUCH worse when Westbrook is on the floor. The team posts a TRB% of 46.7% when Westbrook is on the floor. Teams are killing us on the glass, getting 53.3% of the available rebounds to our 46.7%. But when Westbrook sits, we actually outrebound the opposition just barely, 50.1% to 49.9%.

It's worth nothing that the disparity is almost completely due to offensive rebounds. The Wizards grab 76.1% of the available defensive boards when Westbrook is in the game, and 77.5% when he is out. But they grab just 18.0% of the offensive boards with Westbrook in the game and 23.1% when he is out.

I thought maybe it was because Russ plays more with bad rebounders. So I went and looked at the player combination numbers for our best rebounders (Hachimura, Lopez, Avdija, Wagner, Len). As it turns out, for all of them except Len, the team rebounds better when they are on the floor without Westbrook than they do with him. (And for Len, it goes the other way, but only just a little.)

The bottom line is that Westbrook's rebounding looks to be a mirage. All those rebounds he gets in his personal box score are, for whatever reason, not contributing to the net total of the team rebounds. His presence actually makes the team rebound worse. My theory is that teams pack the paint when Westbrook is in the game, making offensive rebounding almost impossible (which is where the big disparity is). And the defensive rebounding that Westbrook provides are exclusively rebounds stolen from teammates. The team would probably be better off if Westbrook would leak out to receive a pass from a defensive rebounding teammate rather than go all the way back to the rim and grab the rebound himself. It would lead to more transition opportunities.

Where did you find these numbers?
User avatar
nate33
Forum Mod - Wizards
Forum Mod - Wizards
Posts: 59,696
And1: 12,382
Joined: Oct 28, 2002

Re: Russell Westbrook in DC Appreciation Thread. 

Post#105 » by nate33 » Sat Mar 27, 2021 5:25 pm

prime1time wrote:
nate33 wrote:Westbrook's rebounding came up in a discussion on the trade thread, so I went and looked at the numbers.

I was surprised to discover that the team actually rebounds MUCH worse when Westbrook is on the floor. The team posts a TRB% of 46.7% when Westbrook is on the floor. Teams are killing us on the glass, getting 53.3% of the available rebounds to our 46.7%. But when Westbrook sits, we actually outrebound the opposition just barely, 50.1% to 49.9%.

It's worth nothing that the disparity is almost completely due to offensive rebounds. The Wizards grab 76.1% of the available defensive boards when Westbrook is in the game, and 77.5% when he is out. But they grab just 18.0% of the offensive boards with Westbrook in the game and 23.1% when he is out.

I thought maybe it was because Russ plays more with bad rebounders. So I went and looked at the player combination numbers for our best rebounders (Hachimura, Lopez, Avdija, Wagner, Len). As it turns out, for all of them except Len, the team rebounds better when they are on the floor without Westbrook than they do with him. (And for Len, it goes the other way, but only just a little.)

The bottom line is that Westbrook's rebounding looks to be a mirage. All those rebounds he gets in his personal box score are, for whatever reason, not contributing to the net total of the team rebounds. His presence actually makes the team rebound worse. My theory is that teams pack the paint when Westbrook is in the game, making offensive rebounding almost impossible (which is where the big disparity is). And the defensive rebounding that Westbrook provides are exclusively rebounds stolen from teammates. The team would probably be better off if Westbrook would leak out to receive a pass from a defensive rebounding teammate rather than go all the way back to the rim and grab the rebound himself. It would lead to more transition opportunities.

Where did you find these numbers?

Basketballreference on/off data and lineups data.
User avatar
doclinkin
RealGM
Posts: 10,646
And1: 2,814
Joined: Jul 26, 2004
Location: .wizuds.

Re: Russell Westbrook in DC Appreciation Thread. 

Post#106 » by doclinkin » Sat Mar 27, 2021 9:15 pm

nate33 wrote:Westbrook's rebounding came up in a discussion on the trade thread, so I went and looked at the numbers.

I was surprised to discover that the team actually rebounds MUCH worse when Westbrook is on the floor. The team posts a TRB% of 46.7% when Westbrook is on the floor. Teams are killing us on the glass, getting 53.3% of the available rebounds to our 46.7%. But when Westbrook sits, we actually outrebound the opposition just barely, 50.1% to 49.9%.

It's worth nothing that the disparity is almost completely due to offensive rebounds. The Wizards grab 76.1% of the available defensive boards when Westbrook is in the game, and 77.5% when he is out. But they grab just 18.0% of the offensive boards with Westbrook in the game and 23.1% when he is out.


What I have said many times, even before he landed with us. He rebounds selfishly and assists selfishly.

The thing is for him to attack the interior he needs players to clear out. Cool that gives him room to drive it down the throat of the other team, the thing is other teams know this and know he is not going to swing the ball side to side to get them out of position so they can feel free to pack the paint and dare him to jack a shot. He does, and our guys are on the perimeter, to clear space for him, so the rebounds bounce nicely into the hands of the 2-3 opponents who are on the interior. It's not rocket surgery.

What you said, I'm just saying it's been apparent for years.

Really to work with Russ, you know you are going to have many long bounces from jacked shots. You need a player like Steven Adams who is a prolific rebounder even in traffic The opportunities are going to be there. If you plan on playing with him you need secondary penetration from players who are going to crash the glass. AND you need outside shooters who are a threat if teams load up to stop him. Russ inverts the floor in a bad way. The only way it would work well is if you had a sweet shooting Big, and rebounding madmen at the wings who were also a threat to hit a 3 pointer. Then basically Russ is playing a rolling Center in a PG's body.
User avatar
nate33
Forum Mod - Wizards
Forum Mod - Wizards
Posts: 59,696
And1: 12,382
Joined: Oct 28, 2002

Re: Russell Westbrook in DC Appreciation Thread. 

Post#107 » by nate33 » Sat Mar 27, 2021 9:23 pm

Man, is there anybody we can dump Westbrook onto? I'd trade him for any combination of contracts that are equal or shorter.

I knew he was bad with his turnovers and inefficient shooting, but I always assumed his rebounding had significant value that at least partially offset the offensive inefficiency. Good grief, even his rebounding is worthless!

It really is amazing how a guy can work so hard, play with so much energy, and seemingly be so productive, but none of it helps the team actually win games.
User avatar
nate33
Forum Mod - Wizards
Forum Mod - Wizards
Posts: 59,696
And1: 12,382
Joined: Oct 28, 2002

Re: Russell Westbrook in DC Appreciation Thread. 

Post#108 » by nate33 » Sun Mar 28, 2021 2:02 pm

Westbrook had 19 rebounds last night, 18 on the defensive boards.

Here is a link to the video. Of those 18 boards, I count 13 that could have just as easily been grabbed by another Wizard.

https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?ContextMeasure=DREB&EndPeriod=0&EndRange=28800&GameID=0022000694&PlayerID=201566&RangeType=0&Season=2020-21&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&StartPeriod=0&StartRange=0&TeamID=1610612764&flag=1&sct=plot&section=game
9 and 20
Sophomore
Posts: 128
And1: 60
Joined: Mar 28, 2021
 

Re: Russell Westbrook in DC Appreciation Thread. 

Post#109 » by 9 and 20 » Wed Mar 31, 2021 4:03 am

Can't say I do.
User avatar
FAH1223
RealGM
Posts: 11,837
And1: 4,456
Joined: Nov 01, 2005
Location: Laurel, MD
       

Re: Russell Westbrook in DC Appreciation Thread. 

Post#110 » by FAH1223 » Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:27 pm

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter


Image
Ruzious
Forum Mod
Forum Mod
Posts: 44,174
And1: 8,883
Joined: Jul 17, 2001
       

Re: Russell Westbrook in DC Appreciation Thread. 

Post#111 » by Ruzious » Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:49 pm

What really burns me about this is Stephen A making this about him - as if Russell Westbrook owes him some kind of explanation, and as if Westbrook needs Stephen A's approval.
"Look, you never know when you may need to borrow a cup of sugar, maybe some milk or a handgun" - Dan C. from Texas
User avatar
FAH1223
RealGM
Posts: 11,837
And1: 4,456
Joined: Nov 01, 2005
Location: Laurel, MD
       

Re: Russell Westbrook in DC Appreciation Thread. 

Post#112 » by FAH1223 » Fri Apr 9, 2021 3:33 pm

Read on Twitter
Image
User avatar
nate33
Forum Mod - Wizards
Forum Mod - Wizards
Posts: 59,696
And1: 12,382
Joined: Oct 28, 2002

Re: Russell Westbrook in DC Appreciation Thread. 

Post#113 » by nate33 » Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:19 pm

Here's what I'm talking about with Westbrook "stealing" rebounds. Here is a video of all 12 of Westbrook's defensive rebounds in the Golden State game.

https://go.nba.com/mpof

In 10 of them, if Westbrook wasn't there, the rebound simply would have fallen into the lap of another Wizard. 4 would have gone to Hachimura, 2 each to Lopez and Ish, 1 to Neto and 1 to Len.

There were only 2 rebounds that may not have been grabbed if Westbrook wasn't there. In one of them, Westbrook was defending Draymond on a switch and Draymond missed the post up shot. Westbrook boxed out and got the board. Good for him, but not a particularly exceptional play. In one other play, Westbrook was being boxed out by Wiseman but managed to shove him in the back subtly so that Wiseman didn't get the board and Westbrook grabbed it. That was a nice play - one most guards probably couldn't make.

Westbrook has an instinct to drift to the lane whenever a shot goes up and it result in him grabbing boards. But it's not clear that these rebounds are all that helpful. What else could Westbrook be doing instead of drifting into the lane? He could be leaking out for a fast break. He could be keeping an eye on his man who might be crashing the lane or spotting up for a 3 in the event of an offensive rebound. I'm not saying Westbrook is definitely doing the wrong thing, but it is noteworthy that the team actually rebounds significantly worse with Westbrook on the floor.
User avatar
nate33
Forum Mod - Wizards
Forum Mod - Wizards
Posts: 59,696
And1: 12,382
Joined: Oct 28, 2002

Re: Russell Westbrook in DC Appreciation Thread. 

Post#114 » by nate33 » Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:22 pm

I will note that Westbrook's negative effect on team rebounding is a relatively recent phenomenon. During his OKC years, his team rebounded much better with Westbrook on the floor. With Houston, Westbrook made only a marginally positive difference in team rebounding. And now, with Washington, his presence is actually deleterious to team rebounding.

Is this because Westbrook is getting older and no longer getting the "tough" rebounds? Or maybe we haven't figured out how to scheme around Westbrook's rebound-crashing tendencies - to have other guys focus more on boxing out and less on grabbing the boards themselves? Or maybe it's just a statistical fluke this year.
DCZards
General Manager
Posts: 8,352
And1: 2,601
Joined: Jul 16, 2005
Location: The Streets of DC

Re: Russell Westbrook in DC Appreciation Thread. 

Post#115 » by DCZards » Sun Apr 11, 2021 4:11 pm

I dunno Nate. I looked at the video and I see maybe 4-5 rebounds that Westbrook got that another Zard would have easily gotten if Russ wasn’t there. What you may be overlooking is that, because Russ was in perfect position for several of those boards, no Warrior went after that particular rebound…making it look like it would have easily ended up in the hands of another Zard.

I do agree that there are times that I'd rather see Russ leak out for an outlet pass rather than hang around for a rebound.
User avatar
nate33
Forum Mod - Wizards
Forum Mod - Wizards
Posts: 59,696
And1: 12,382
Joined: Oct 28, 2002

Re: Russell Westbrook in DC Appreciation Thread. 

Post#116 » by nate33 » Fri Apr 16, 2021 6:43 pm

I've been harping on Westbook "stealing" defensive boards from teammates, but the question is, is that helping or hurting? The on/off data says that the Wizards team defensive rebounding is exactly the same whether Westbrook is on or off the floor, so it doesn't seem to be helping us win the rebuilding battle that much.

But I was wondering whether Westbrook crashing the defensive glass is actively hurting us in other ways. For example, is Westbrook sacrificing closing out on shooters in order to chase rebounds?

NBA.com has a stat that tracks defensive close-outs on 3-pointers. After running a screen of exclusively starting guards who have played 40 or more games, we get a list of 47 guards. Of that 47, Westbrook ranks 39th in 3PA's challenged. But that list is not on a per possession or per minute basis. NBA.com only provides per game data. Looking at the guys worse than Westbrook, only DeRozan, Curry, Donovan Mitchell and Tatum play a comparable number of minutes. I'd bet that Westbrook is in the bottom 5 in 3PA's defended on a per minute basis, among starting guards.

FWIW, Beal looks quite good by this metric, challenging the 7th most 3PA's, though that's presumably inflated a bit by his high minutes per game average. The point is, it doesn't look like it can be blamed on the Wizards' defensive scheme. The ranking of guards generally passes the "smell test" with some well-regarded defensive guards appearing high on the list (Dort, Danny Green, Barrett, Van Vleet, Brooks, Lonzo Ball) and some notably poorly regarded defensive guards appearing low (Derozan, KCP, Mitchell, Young), though the appearance of so many San Antonio wings at the bottom might be a scheme issue.

When you sort the list by FG% allowed, Westbrook looks pretty bad too, yielding the 9th highest FG% on the list. I'm not sure how useful that is though. I suspect FG% isn't all that affected by defensive pressure, you either get the shot off or you don't. The DFG% ranking doesn't really pass the smell test IMO, with players having a good or bad defensive reputation spread in a seemingly random manner.

Bottom line, Westbrook doesn't challenge many 3's, relative to rest of the league (or relative to Beal) which suggests he may not be closing out as aggressively as he should be. But defensive analyses like this must be taken with a grain of salt because it's hard to determine how much scheme and circumstances play a role.
User avatar
Kanyewest
General Manager
Posts: 8,345
And1: 1,632
Joined: Jul 05, 2004

Re: Russell Westbrook in DC Appreciation Thread. 

Post#117 » by Kanyewest » Fri Apr 16, 2021 7:10 pm

nate33 wrote:I've been harping on Westbook "stealing" defensive boards from teammates, but the question is, is that helping or hurting? The on/off data says that the Wizards team defensive rebounding is exactly the same whether Westbrook is on or off the floor, so it doesn't seem to be helping us win the rebuilding battle that much.

But I was wondering whether Westbrook crashing the defense is hurting in other wasy. Is Westbrook sacrificing closing out on shooters in order to chase rebounds?

NBA.com has a stat that tracks defensive close-outs on 3-pointers. After running a screen of exclusively starting guards who have played 40 or more games, we get a list of 47 guards. Of that 47, Westbrook ranks 39th in 3PA's challenged. But that list is not on a per possession or per minute basis. NBA.com only provides per game data. Looking at the guys worse than Westbrook, only DeRozan, Curry, Donovan Mitchell and Tatum play a comparable number of minutes. I'd bet that Westbrook is in the bottom 5 in 3PA's defended on a per minute basis, among starting guards.

FWIW, Beal looks quite good by this metric, challenging the 7th most 3PA's, though that's presumably inflated a bit by his high minutes per game average. The point is, it doesn't look like it can be blamed on the Wizards' defensive scheme. The ranking of guards generally passes the "smell test" with some notably good defensive guards appearing high on the list (Dort, Danny Green, Barrett, Van Vleet, Brooks, Lonzo Ball) and some notably poor defensive guards appearing low (Derozan, KCP, Mitchell, Young), though the appearance of many San Antonio wings at the bottom might be a scheme issue.

When you sort the list by FG% allowed, Westbrook looks pretty bad too, yielding the 9th highest FG% on the list. I'm not sure how useful that is though. I suspect FG% isn't all that affected by defensive pressure, you either get the shot off or you don't. The DFG% ranking doesn't really pass the smell test IMO, with players having a good or bad defensive reputation spread in a seemingly random manner.

Bottom line, Westbrook doesn't challenge many 3's, relative to rest of the league (or to Beal) which suggests he may not be closing out as aggressively as he should be. But defensive analyses like this must be taken with a grain of salt because it's hard to determine how much scheme and circumstances play a role.


One theory- Westbrook has had problems getting back in transition- meaning other guys like Beal may have to make up for that and contest shots. And teams are taking more transition 3s than ever
User avatar
FAH1223
RealGM
Posts: 11,837
And1: 4,456
Joined: Nov 01, 2005
Location: Laurel, MD
       

Re: Russell Westbrook in DC Appreciation Thread. 

Post#118 » by FAH1223 » Thu Apr 22, 2021 2:30 am

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter
Image
User avatar
FAH1223
RealGM
Posts: 11,837
And1: 4,456
Joined: Nov 01, 2005
Location: Laurel, MD
       

Re: Russell Westbrook in DC Appreciation Thread. 

Post#119 » by FAH1223 » Fri Apr 23, 2021 2:11 am

FAH1223 wrote:
Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter
Image
User avatar
doclinkin
RealGM
Posts: 10,646
And1: 2,814
Joined: Jul 26, 2004
Location: .wizuds.

Re: Russell Westbrook in DC Appreciation Thread. 

Post#120 » by doclinkin » Fri Apr 23, 2021 2:51 am

Yeah. I give up. He's maddening, and I like the guy.

Return to Washington Wizards