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Triple Double King Russell Westbrook Appreciation Thread.

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Re: Russell Westbrook in DC Appreciation Thread. 

Post#141 » by CntOutSmrtCrazy » Thu Apr 29, 2021 9:20 pm

tontoz wrote:Lets not gloss over the fact that Russ' 5 turnovers per game leads the NBA and his TS of 50% is pretty bad.


I don't really see anyone glossing over those glaringly obvious points.
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Re: Russell Westbrook in DC Appreciation Thread. 

Post#142 » by nate33 » Thu Apr 29, 2021 9:41 pm

In his first 19 games, Russ averaged per 36: 20.5 pts, 9.9 rebs, 10.3 ast, 5.3 to's, .467 TS%, USG 31.1%
In the last 36 games, Russ averaged per 36: 22.4 pts, 11.7 reb, 11.4 ast, 4.8 to's, .516 TS%, USG 30.8%

His efficiency in the first 19 games was so mind-numbingly bad that it was impossible to win if he had even an average game. It took an outlier good game for the Wizards to have a chance, and on his bad games, there was absolutely no hope.

In the last 36 games, his efficiency is still bad, but no longer quite so dramatically detrimental. League average TS% of .572, so he is definitely hurting us when he shoots. But you can argue that his massive contributions in rebounding and passing offset that inefficiency to some degree.
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Re: Russell Westbrook in DC Appreciation Thread. 

Post#143 » by payitforward » Thu Apr 29, 2021 9:57 pm

CntOutSmrtCrazy wrote:
tontoz wrote:Lets not gloss over the fact that Russ' 5 turnovers per game leads the NBA and his TS of 50% is pretty bad.

I don't really see anyone glossing over those glaringly obvious points.

Well, this is more or less the question nate brought up -- do the extraordinary positives in Russ's game make up for the extraordinary negatives in his game?

It's a fair question, & I tried to answer it. Overall, the answer is yes -- if we are talking about the last month or so, when he really started to shine, having gotten over the quad injury which hampered him.

Btw, this is something that has to be answered quantitatively; it can't be answered qualitatively. A turnover hurts you. On average over time it hurts you a certain amount. That "amount" is what positive things have to make up for. If you are trying to answer the question, that's what you have to consider. I'm not suggesting that a quantitative answer is the complete answer -- or even that it's completely accurate quantitatively. But, without it you have no answer at all; you just have your opinion.

Per 40 minutes, Russell turns the ball over a little more than 2.8 more times than average for a PG. OTOH, he gets 1 more offensive rebound than average. & he gets almost 5.5 more assists than an average PG. & he gets almost 7 more defensive boards than an average PG. A little more than 1/2 of those defensive boards would be gotten by his teammates if he didn't get them, but that still leaves plenty of extra positives Russ delivers -- way more than required to leave him as an extremely productive PG even at this point in his career.

Moreover, those numbers are on the season as a whole. He is way way better than his season numbers over the last month plus.
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Re: Russell Westbrook in DC Appreciation Thread. 

Post#144 » by payitforward » Thu Apr 29, 2021 10:01 pm

nate33 wrote:In his first 19 games, Russ averaged per 36: 20.5 pts, 9.9 rebs, 10.3 ast, 5.3 to's, .467 TS%, USG 31.1%
In the last 36 games, Russ averaged per 36: 22.4 pts, 11.7 reb, 11.4 ast, 4.8 to's, .516 TS%, USG 30.8%

His efficiency in the first 19 games was so mind-numbingly bad that it was impossible to win if he had even an average game. It took an outlier good game for the Wizards to have a chance, and on his bad games, there was absolutely no hope.

In the last 36 games, his efficiency is still bad, but no longer quite so dramatically detrimental. League average TS% of .572, so he is definitely hurting us when he shoots. But you can argue that his massive contributions in rebounding and passing offset that inefficiency to some degree.

Great!!

As to his TS%, however, I think it would be more sensible to quantify the deficit with respect to the average TS% of PGs rather than the average TS% of all players. I have that at .536. You may have something slightly different.
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Re: Russell Westbrook in DC Appreciation Thread. 

Post#145 » by nate33 » Thu Apr 29, 2021 10:10 pm

payitforward wrote:
nate33 wrote:In his first 19 games, Russ averaged per 36: 20.5 pts, 9.9 rebs, 10.3 ast, 5.3 to's, .467 TS%, USG 31.1%
In the last 36 games, Russ averaged per 36: 22.4 pts, 11.7 reb, 11.4 ast, 4.8 to's, .516 TS%, USG 30.8%

His efficiency in the first 19 games was so mind-numbingly bad that it was impossible to win if he had even an average game. It took an outlier good game for the Wizards to have a chance, and on his bad games, there was absolutely no hope.

In the last 36 games, his efficiency is still bad, but no longer quite so dramatically detrimental. League average TS% of .572, so he is definitely hurting us when he shoots. But you can argue that his massive contributions in rebounding and passing offset that inefficiency to some degree.

Great!!

As to his TS%, however, I think it would be more sensible to quantify the deficit with respect to the average TS% of PGs rather than the average TS% of all players. I have that at .536. You may have something slightly different.

Good point.

And more importantly, I wonder what the average TS% of a PG who shoots shots when he shoots his shots. For example, if you are a PG who tends only to shoot bail-out shots late in the shot clock in a half court set, then one would expect a lower TS%. If you primarily shoot on fast breaks, one would expect a high TS%.

Basically, it's plausible that Westbook's TS% isn't really that bad relative to guys who take shots under similar circumstances.
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Re: Russell Westbrook in DC Appreciation Thread. 

Post#146 » by tontoz » Thu Apr 29, 2021 10:42 pm

nate33 wrote:In his first 19 games, Russ averaged per 36: 20.5 pts, 9.9 rebs, 10.3 ast, 5.3 to's, .467 TS%, USG 31.1%
In the last 36 games, Russ averaged per 36: 22.4 pts, 11.7 reb, 11.4 ast, 4.8 to's, .516 TS%, USG 30.8%

His efficiency in the first 19 games was so mind-numbingly bad that it was impossible to win if he had even an average game. It took an outlier good game for the Wizards to have a chance, and on his bad games, there was absolutely no hope.

In the last 36 games, his efficiency is still bad, but no longer quite so dramatically detrimental. League average TS% of .572, so he is definitely hurting us when he shoots. But you can argue that his massive contributions in rebounding and passing offset that inefficiency to some degree.



He just needs to shoot less and take better care of the ball. He is certainly capable of that as he proved last night.

It is clearly a struggle for him though. His nature is to just go bats*** crazy all the time. It is truly amazing how much energy he has, especially for a guy in his 30s.
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Re: Russell Westbrook in DC Appreciation Thread. 

Post#147 » by payitforward » Thu Apr 29, 2021 11:41 pm

nate33 wrote:
payitforward wrote:
nate33 wrote:In his first 19 games, Russ averaged per 36: 20.5 pts, 9.9 rebs, 10.3 ast, 5.3 to's, .467 TS%, USG 31.1%
In the last 36 games, Russ averaged per 36: 22.4 pts, 11.7 reb, 11.4 ast, 4.8 to's, .516 TS%, USG 30.8%

His efficiency in the first 19 games was so mind-numbingly bad that it was impossible to win if he had even an average game. It took an outlier good game for the Wizards to have a chance, and on his bad games, there was absolutely no hope.

In the last 36 games, his efficiency is still bad, but no longer quite so dramatically detrimental. League average TS% of .572, so he is definitely hurting us when he shoots. But you can argue that his massive contributions in rebounding and passing offset that inefficiency to some degree.

Great!!

As to his TS%, however, I think it would be more sensible to quantify the deficit with respect to the average TS% of PGs rather than the average TS% of all players. I have that at .536. You may have something slightly different.

Good point.

And more importantly, I wonder what the average TS% of a PG who shoots shots when he shoots his shots. For example, if you are a PG who tends only to shoot bail-out shots late in the shot clock in a half court set, then one would expect a lower TS%. If you primarily shoot on fast breaks, one would expect a high TS%.

Basically, it's plausible that Westbook's TS% isn't really that bad relative to guys who take shots under similar circumstances.

Of course, if he's taking shots under circumstances where, really, you'd rather he wasn't taking shots....!

Anyway, main point -- to me, at least -- is that Russ is getting back to the player he was two years ago. Big plus.
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Re: Russell Westbrook in DC Appreciation Thread. 

Post#148 » by nate33 » Sun May 2, 2021 3:12 pm

I posted this in the Dallas game thread, but it bears repeating here.

Ever since Westbrook got over the quad injury, the team has been extremely successful. Russ himself has been moderately better from an individual statistics standpoint - basically 10% more points and assists and 20% more rebounds with a 5% jump in TS%, but the team has been massively better.

Westbrook's last missed game was February 8th. If we say February 10th was the start of "healthy Westbrook", there is a stark contrast between the two eras.

The Wizards before February 10th had a record of 6-15.
Since February 10th, they've had a record of 23-20.

But Beal has missed games too, most of them after February 10th. If you only look at games when both Beal and Westbrook played:
Pre-February 10th: 6-14
Post-February 10th: 22-13.

So with a healthy Westbrook and Beal, the Wizards are 22-13. Over an 82-game season, that would be a 52-win team.

BTW, the Wizards are 13-2 when Westbrook, Beal and Gafford all play, with both losses coming in the final seconds.
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Re: Russell Westbrook in DC Appreciation Thread. 

Post#149 » by tontoz » Sun May 2, 2021 3:31 pm

His game last night was truly amazing, not just because of the numbers but also the circumstances.

The team clearly wasn't ready to play. They were facing a playoff team that was on a roll. They didn't match up well with dallas due to the size of their backcourt.

They were down 18 early in the 2nd quarter. It would have been easy to just roll over the way past wizards teams have done time and again.

Russ was like f this and just went off.
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Re: Russell Westbrook in DC Appreciation Thread. 

Post#150 » by nate33 » Sun May 2, 2021 3:40 pm

tontoz wrote:His game last night was truly amazing, not just because of the numbers but also the circumstances.

The team clearly wasn't ready to play. They were facing a playoff team that was on a roll. They didn't match up well with dallas due to the size of their backcourt.

They were down 18 early in the 2nd quarter. It would have been easy to just roll over the way past wizards teams have done time and again.

Russ was like f this and just went off.

It was really one of the most amazing games I ever remember from a Wizards player. At the very least, it's up there with some of Arenas' best nights. Through sheer force of will, Westbrook brought us back into the game.
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Re: Russell Westbrook in DC Appreciation Thread. 

Post#151 » by dobrojim » Mon May 3, 2021 6:18 pm

Was checking in on the DEN game the other night and the announcers were gushing
about Joker, and not for no reason, as a leading MVP candidate.

After being critical of Russ early in the season, I wonder if he doesn't deserve
some consideration. He is averaging more rebounds and assists than J (iirc).
No one questions Jokers bona fides. And Westbrook isn't even in the conversation.

Yeah it's about wins. Should it be?
A lot of what we call 'thought' is just mental activity
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Re: Russell Westbrook in DC Appreciation Thread. 

Post#152 » by pcbothwel » Mon May 3, 2021 6:29 pm

dobrojim wrote:Was checking in on the DEN game the other night and the announcers were gushing
about Joker, and not for no reason, as a leading MVP candidate.

After being critical of Russ early in the season, I wonder if he doesn't deserve
some consideration. He is averaging more rebounds and assists than J (iirc).
No one questions Jokers bona fides. And Westbrook isn't even in the conversation.

Yeah it's about wins. Should it be?


Maybe...just maybe, the fact that Jokic has a TS of 65% while Russ has a TS of 50% means something.
Per 100 possessions, Jokic takes 1 more shot...and scores 9 more points. lol
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Re: Russell Westbrook in DC Appreciation Thread. 

Post#153 » by tontoz » Mon May 3, 2021 6:47 pm

dobrojim wrote:Was checking in on the DEN game the other night and the announcers were gushing
about Joker, and not for no reason, as a leading MVP candidate.

After being critical of Russ early in the season, I wonder if he doesn't deserve
some consideration. He is averaging more rebounds and assists than J (iirc).
No one questions Jokers bona fides. And Westbrook isn't even in the conversation.

Yeah it's about wins. Should it be?



Me thinks you haven't been paying much attention this season. :lol:

Russ has been playing better lately, and was a monster last game, but this is probably his worst season in 10 years. Not trying to downplay his effect on the rest of the team but the numbers aren't lying.
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Re: Russell Westbrook in DC Appreciation Thread. 

Post#154 » by Ruzious » Mon May 3, 2021 7:05 pm

I'll settle for him being playoffs MVP. 8-)
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Re: Russell Westbrook in DC Appreciation Thread. 

Post#155 » by payitforward » Mon May 3, 2021 7:30 pm

tontoz wrote:
dobrojim wrote:Was checking in on the DEN game the other night and the announcers were gushing
about Joker, and not for no reason, as a leading MVP candidate.

After being critical of Russ early in the season, I wonder if he doesn't deserve
some consideration. He is averaging more rebounds and assists than J (iirc).
No one questions Jokers bona fides. And Westbrook isn't even in the conversation.

Yeah it's about wins. Should it be?

Me thinks you haven't been paying much attention this season. :lol:

Russ has been playing better lately, and was a monster last game, but this is probably his worst season in 10 years. Not trying to downplay his effect on the rest of the team but the numbers aren't lying.

This is not Russ's worst season in 10 years -- not at all. That "honor" goes to last season. Or his rookie year, which I suppose we can leave out of the discussion.

Since recovering from his quad injury, Russell is playing at the level of a couple of years ago, i.e. below his best 3 seasons but still incredibly well. Even looking at the season as a whole, he's not far off his 2018-19 numbers overall.
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Re: Russell Westbrook in DC Appreciation Thread. 

Post#156 » by dobrojim » Mon May 3, 2021 10:11 pm

Yeah, I have been watching, like all of us, sometimes in amazement, sometimes in horror.
Of course Joker is more efficient. Efficiency is RW's kryptonite statistically. (TO's, missed shots, missed FTs)
But it is notable that when he started averaging trip-dubs over a season (going back 3-4 years), everyone
was in awe. Now on the national level, no one cares, at least not nearly as much.
Did we overrate that statistical feat before or are we underrating now?
If it was easy, more players would do it. I guess the question is, how important is it.
He was almost reaching that average in the first half of the season and we still sucked re W-L record.
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Re: Russell Westbrook in DC Appreciation Thread. 

Post#157 » by dobrojim » Tue May 4, 2021 3:59 am

Two players in NBA history have had 20 reb-20 assist games.
Wilt did it once.
Russ has now done it twice.
Russ has statistically clinched a triple double avg for the season, his 4th.
Oscar did it once (and very close a second time).
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Re: Russell Westbrook in DC Appreciation Thread. 

Post#158 » by doclinkin » Tue May 4, 2021 7:48 am

I was wrong. Heartbroken about Wall, I was unhappy to see Russ on this team. I saw the difficulty he had playing with other HOF players, taking their possessions for his inefficient scoring game. But this Russ is a different player than he has been. Here he is not simply gunning for stats and getting baited into shoot outs, but is making players around him better, Wild to see him evolve as a leader. His effect on young players like Rui and Gafford is fun to watch. Not only his passes, as the team develops chemistry around him, but his attitude is infectious, bringing out high effort high energy mindset up and down the bench. And in fans.

I still don't like Ted, and doubt Brooks, but I like Tommy more and more. He has built a team ideal for Russ in adding Len and Gafford and Lopez on the interior to shore up our defense. Neto on the outside for scrappy ranged gunning. Retaining Bertans to add space, and keeping savvy pro's pro Ish Smith as a stabilizing force. Even a player like Gill manages to contribute professionalism and solid play when needed. Russ' in this stretch at least seems to bring out the best of the guys around him. The team has swagger that hasn't been seen here since the Hibachi era. Plus defense.

I was totally wrong to doubt. Russ even with any flaws is now one of my top favorite Wizards ever. It's still Hibachi first, because of the everything. But damn.
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Re: Russell Westbrook in DC Appreciation Thread. 

Post#159 » by TheBlackCzar » Tue May 4, 2021 7:53 am

doclinkin wrote:I was totally wrong to doubt. Russ even with any flaws is now one of my top favorite Wizards ever. It's still Hibachi first, because of the everything. But damn. His effect on young players like Rui and Gafford is fun to watch


Yep... I didn't doubt him, but I agree with the rest.....
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Re: Russell Westbrook in DC Appreciation Thread. 

Post#160 » by 9 and 20 » Tue May 4, 2021 8:26 am

doclinkin wrote:I was wrong. Heartbroken about Wall, I was unhappy to see Russ on this team. I saw the difficult he had playing with other HOF players, taking their possessions for his inefficient scoring game. But this Russ is a different player than he has been. Here he is not simply gunning for stats and getting baited into shoot outs, but is making players around him better, Wild to see him evolve as a leader. His effect on young players like Rui and Gafford is fun to watch. Not only his passes, as the team develops chemistry around him, but his attitude is infectious, bringing out high effort high energy mindset up and down the bench. And in fans.

I still don't like Ted, and doubt Brooks, but I like Tommy more and more. He has built a team ideal for Russ in adding Len and Gafford and Lopez on the interior to shore up our defense. Neto on the outside for scrappy ranged gunning. Retaining Bertans to add space, and keeping savvy pro's pro Ish Smith as a stabilizing force. Even a player like Gill manages to contribute professionalism and solid play when needed. Russ' in this stretch at least seems to bring out the best of the guys around him. The team has swagger that hasn't been seen here since the Hibachi era. Plus defense.

I was totally wrong to doubt. Russ even with any flaws is now one of my top favorite Wizards ever. It's still Hibachi first, because of the everything. But damn.


I agree with every word of this - Hibachi being the most-loved Wizard; being mad about the way Wall was treated at the end with the stupid backhanded comments from Terd Leonsis on twitter; impressed with Russ' leadership and impact on the young guys; Tommy's acquisitions last offseason and during the season generally working out.

All in all, in the world of lowered expectations that Wizards fans know and love, this season has been better than expected as it has gone on. Definitely after starting the proverbial 9 and 20, anyway.
Can't say I do.

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