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Triple Double King Russell Westbrook Appreciation Thread.

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Re: Russell Westbrook in DC Appreciation Thread. 

Post#181 » by wall_glizzy » Wed May 5, 2021 10:19 pm

payitforward wrote:Can't argue with any of it. But, the above is at an overall-season level. What happens if you run numbers in a fine-grained way -- per week let's say. What does the productivity curve look like across those points.


Here's the link, which will allow you to get as granular as month-to-month: https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1629726/shots-dash/?Season=2020-21&SeasonType=Regular%20Season. Let us know if you find anything of note!

I do know that his TS% is down a bit (64.9 -> 62.3) and his USG% (14.0 -> 9.2) is down quite a lot from before the All-Star break to after, in roughly equal minutes on either side. An odd pattern, to be sure, so it would be interesting to know whether it corresponds to any chance in shot profile.
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Re: Russell Westbrook in DC Appreciation Thread. 

Post#182 » by dobrojim » Wed May 5, 2021 11:50 pm

At the risk of thread hijack, anyone want to weigh in on GoaT PGs.
Lots of defendable choices. I like Stockton due to his efficiency
A:TO, shooting percentages at all three levels, defense and screens.
Hard to argue with Magic. IMO, despite size, Steph is a SG. I remember (sorta)
Maravich was amazing Sg/pg but had a brief career. CP3 is in conversation.
Steph has changed the game and was also best player on a championship team.
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Re: Russell Westbrook in DC Appreciation Thread. 

Post#183 » by tontoz » Thu May 6, 2021 12:04 am

I still consider Steph a pg because he does most of the ball handling.

I have Magic as the goat pg. After that in any order is Stockton, CP3 and Steph. After the top 4 not sure.
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Re: Russell Westbrook in DC Appreciation Thread. 

Post#184 » by doclinkin » Thu May 6, 2021 3:09 am

dobrojim wrote:At the risk of thread hijack, anyone want to weigh in on GoaT PGs.
Lots of defendable choices. I like Stockton due to his efficiency
A:TO, shooting percentages at all three levels, defense and screens.
Hard to argue with Magic. IMO, despite size, Steph is a SG. I remember (sorta)
Maravich was amazing Sg/pg but had a brief career. CP3 is in conversation.
Steph has changed the game and was also best player on a championship team.


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Re: Russell Westbrook in DC Appreciation Thread. 

Post#185 » by long suffrin' boulez fan » Thu May 6, 2021 12:20 pm

tontoz wrote:I still consider Steph a pg because he does most of the ball handling.

I have Magic as the goat pg. After that in any order is Stockton, CP3 and Steph. After the top 4 not sure.


Steve Nash ought to be in the conversation.
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Re: Russell Westbrook in DC Appreciation Thread. 

Post#186 » by payitforward » Thu May 6, 2021 12:26 pm

wall_glizzy wrote:
payitforward wrote:Can't argue with any of it. But, the above is at an overall-season level. What happens if you run numbers in a fine-grained way -- per week let's say. What does the productivity curve look like across those points.


Here's the link, which will allow you to get as granular as month-to-month: https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1629726/shots-dash/?Season=2020-21&SeasonType=Regular%20Season. Let us know if you find anything of note!

I do know that his TS% is down a bit (64.9 -> 62.3) and his USG% (14.0 -> 9.2) is down quite a lot from before the All-Star break to after, in roughly equal minutes on either side. An odd pattern, to be sure, so it would be interesting to know whether it corresponds to any chance in shot profile.

Mathews' 3-pt. % cratered in April -- but only shots taken either very early in the shot clock or very late in the shot clock. Shots taken anywhere in the middle range of the clock, he was still over 40%.

What do you make of that, Glizzy?
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Re: Russell Westbrook in DC Appreciation Thread. 

Post#187 » by tontoz » Thu May 6, 2021 12:27 pm

long suffrin' boulez fan wrote:
tontoz wrote:I still consider Steph a pg because he does most of the ball handling.

I have Magic as the goat pg. After that in any order is Stockton, CP3 and Steph. After the top 4 not sure.


Steve Nash ought to be in the conversation.



Yeah i will put him in the top 5. Not going to quibble on the order other than Magic at 1.
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Re: Russell Westbrook in DC Appreciation Thread. 

Post#188 » by Ruzious » Thu May 6, 2021 12:36 pm

long suffrin' boulez fan wrote:
tontoz wrote:I still consider Steph a pg because he does most of the ball handling.

I have Magic as the goat pg. After that in any order is Stockton, CP3 and Steph. After the top 4 not sure.


Steve Nash ought to be in the conversation.

To me, Magic is at the top joined in the top tier only be Oscar. I think the second tier is led by Steph - followed closely by CP3 and then Nash. I think that tier includes the non-Wiz Isaiah Thomas - though I realize others disagree. Stockton's a tough one in more ways than one. I have him at the bottom of the 2nd tier.
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Re: Russell Westbrook in DC Appreciation Thread. 

Post#189 » by doclinkin » Thu May 6, 2021 1:43 pm

Ruzious wrote:
long suffrin' boulez fan wrote:
tontoz wrote:I still consider Steph a pg because he does most of the ball handling.

I have Magic as the goat pg. After that in any order is Stockton, CP3 and Steph. After the top 4 not sure.


Steve Nash ought to be in the conversation.

To me, Magic is at the top joined in the top tier only be Oscar. I think the second tier is led by Steph - followed closely by CP3 and then Nash. I think that tier includes the non-Wiz Isaiah Thomas - though I realize others disagree. Stockton's a tough one in more ways than one. I have him at the bottom of the 2nd tier.


Magic, Big O, Stef, Zeke. Aside from these few has any top tier PG ever carried a team to a championship? Can you be in the conversation of greatest of all time if you haven't won the greatest prize? You play to win the game. To win the final game. Getting there is not enough. Consistently excellently falling short is not enough. Stef has changed the game, he is absolutely in the conversation, and a team built around and carried by him had a mini dynasty in an era of really good PG play.

Zeke in a way is the most impressive, considering he beat MJ, Magic, Bird to do it. Stef has LeBJ as a nemesis, but what other generational player has been in the league in his era?
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Re: Russell Westbrook in DC Appreciation Thread. 

Post#190 » by Ruzious » Thu May 6, 2021 1:59 pm

doclinkin wrote:
Ruzious wrote:
long suffrin' boulez fan wrote:
Steve Nash ought to be in the conversation.

To me, Magic is at the top joined in the top tier only be Oscar. I think the second tier is led by Steph - followed closely by CP3 and then Nash. I think that tier includes the non-Wiz Isaiah Thomas - though I realize others disagree. Stockton's a tough one in more ways than one. I have him at the bottom of the 2nd tier.


Magic, Big O, Stef, Zeke. Aside from these few has any top tier PG ever carried a team to a championship? Can you be in the conversation of greatest of all time if you haven't won the greatest prize? You play to win the game. To win the final game. Getting there is not enough. Consistently excellently falling short is not enough. Stef has changed the game, he is absolutely in the conversation, and a team built around and carried by him had a mini dynasty in an era of really good PG play.

Zeke in a way is the most impressive, considering he beat MJ, Magic, Bird to do it. Stef has LeBJ as a nemesis, but what other generational player has been in the league in his era?

I have carved out an exception to that rule for Stockton being on the Dream Team. My view is that Nash's Phoenix teams were doomed to playoffs failure by not having centers. They were somewhat ahead of their time - but only somewhat.
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Re: Russell Westbrook in DC Appreciation Thread. 

Post#191 » by tontoz » Thu May 6, 2021 2:09 pm

doclinkin wrote:
Magic, Big O, Stef, Zeke. Aside from these few has any top tier PG ever carried a team to a championship?

Zeke in a way is the most impressive, considering he beat MJ, Magic, Bird to do it. Stef has LeBJ as a nemesis, but what other generational player has been in the league in his era?


Sorry but i can't buy this. At all. Zeke didn't even remotely carry that team. He wasn't a good shooter from anywhere outside 3 feet.

That team was defined by their defense and that wasnt because of Zeke. They had DPOY Rodman to guard Bird and 1st team All NBA defense Dumars to guard Jordan. Not to mention Mahorn, Laimbeer, and Salley to guard the paint.

Mark Aguirre had back to back 25 ppg seasons in Dallas. Detroit had him coming off the bench.

I would argue that Zeke wasn't even the best guard on his own team during their title years. He couldn't even make 3rd team All-NBA.
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Re: Russell Westbrook in DC Appreciation Thread. 

Post#192 » by tontoz » Thu May 6, 2021 2:15 pm

Ruzious wrote:I have carved out an exception to that rule for Stockton being on the Dream Team. My view is that Nash's Phoenix teams were doomed to playoffs failure by not having centers. They were somewhat ahead of their time - but only somewhat.


Nash had some back luck with the Suns. They were close to being a title team his first year there. Wasn't that the year JJ broke his face in the playoffs and had to play in a mask?

Then after the season they trade Joe for Boris Diaw who was a bust in Atlanta. He then became a useful player with the Suns.

Then there was the time that Horry hip checked Nash into the scorers table in the 2nd round. Suns players left the bench and got suspended.

Then Amare missed a season with microfracture surgery. The Suns still made the WCF with Diaw playing center. That was close to a miracle.
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Re: Russell Westbrook in DC Appreciation Thread. 

Post#193 » by Ruzious » Thu May 6, 2021 2:25 pm

tontoz wrote:
Ruzious wrote:I have carved out an exception to that rule for Stockton being on the Dream Team. My view is that Nash's Phoenix teams were doomed to playoffs failure by not having centers. They were somewhat ahead of their time - but only somewhat.


Nash had some back luck with the Suns. They were close to being a title team his first year there. Wasn't that the year JJ broke his face in the playoffs and had to play in a mask?

Then after the season they trade Joe for Boris Diaw who was a bust in Atlanta. He then became a useful player with the Suns.

Then there was the time that Horry hip checked Nash into the scorers table. Suns players left the bench and got suspended.

Then Amare missed a season with microfracture surgery. The Suns still made the WCF with Diaw playing center. That was close to a miracle.

One year, I think they even had success with Tim Thomas (who used to be a disappointing small forward under George Karl in Milwaukee) as their center.
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Re: Russell Westbrook in DC Appreciation Thread. 

Post#194 » by doclinkin » Thu May 6, 2021 2:33 pm

tontoz wrote:
doclinkin wrote:
Magic, Big O, Stef, Zeke. Aside from these few has any top tier PG ever carried a team to a championship?

Zeke in a way is the most impressive, considering he beat MJ, Magic, Bird to do it. Stef has LeBJ as a nemesis, but what other generational player has been in the league in his era?


Sorry but i can't buy this. At all. Zeke didn't even remotely carry that team. He wasn't a good shooter from anywhere outside 3 feet.

That team was defined by their defense and that wasnt because of Zeke. They had DPOY Rodman to guard Bird and 1st team All NBA defense Dumars to guard Jordan. Not to mention Mahorn, Laimbeer, and Salley to guard the paint.

Mark Aguirre had back to back 25 ppg seasons in Dallas. Detroit had him coming off the bench.

I would argue that Zeke wasn't even the best guard on his own team during their title years. He couldn't even make 3rd team All-NBA.


Okay I'll go with that. And Chuck Daly was pretty masterful at substitutions and game planning. Match-ups and adjustments. Drop Zeke then.

So the top tier for me is Magic, Oscar Robertson, Stef Curry.

Everyone else falls short. Nash had Amare and Matrix. Later adding Shaq and Grant Hill. Stockton and Malone had less talent around them than the 7 seconds or less Suns, I'd elevate Stockton near the top of tier 2 before I'd bump Nash up to the top.
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Re: Russell Westbrook in DC Appreciation Thread. 

Post#195 » by tontoz » Thu May 6, 2021 2:35 pm

I never saw Oscar so i don't feel comfortable rating him.
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Re: Russell Westbrook in DC Appreciation Thread. 

Post#196 » by DCZards » Thu May 6, 2021 2:36 pm

Put me in the Magic #1 and Big O #2 camp. After that it's a mad scramble for the 3-8 slots with Stockton, Zeke Thomas, Stef, Chris Paul, Nash and Jason Kidd all in the mix.

If we're talking pure PG play I'd probably put Chris Paul at #3. He's not going to give you Stef's points but CP's the guy I want as my squad's floor general.
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Re: Russell Westbrook in DC Appreciation Thread. 

Post#197 » by pancakes3 » Thu May 6, 2021 3:17 pm

It's really hard to rank the old guys in this era of 3 point shooting, even Magic. he (and O) could be Lebron, or he (and O) can be Ben Simmons.

I think Magic still takes the top spot but if he can't get to the cup because defenses sag and pack the paint, his wouldn't be the Magic that won 5 championships.

Steph, CP3, and Nash are all better than Zeke imo. Zeke was a gamer for sure but Steph, CP3, and Nash could do everything that Zeke does and more (shoot).

For me, Kidd is hard to rank. I've always felt that there was a huge disconnect between my eye test and the numbers/wins that he was putting out. Slow, not a particularly good shooter, and his passes, while accurate, rarely wowed me. Big Rondo. For a football analogy, he's a game manager. Like Titans Tannehill. Maybe he made it look too easy, idk.
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Re: Russell Westbrook in DC Appreciation Thread. 

Post#198 » by Ruzious » Thu May 6, 2021 3:27 pm

Kidd definitely had the wow factor as a passer. This video is a treat.
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Re: Russell Westbrook in DC Appreciation Thread. 

Post#199 » by DCZards » Thu May 6, 2021 4:12 pm

I've always believed (and still believe) that no one was better at making his teammates better--and getting them easy buckets--than Jason Kidd.
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Re: Russell Westbrook in DC Appreciation Thread. 

Post#200 » by wall_glizzy » Thu May 6, 2021 4:23 pm

payitforward wrote:
wall_glizzy wrote:
payitforward wrote:Can't argue with any of it. But, the above is at an overall-season level. What happens if you run numbers in a fine-grained way -- per week let's say. What does the productivity curve look like across those points.


Here's the link, which will allow you to get as granular as month-to-month: https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1629726/shots-dash/?Season=2020-21&SeasonType=Regular%20Season. Let us know if you find anything of note!

I do know that his TS% is down a bit (64.9 -> 62.3) and his USG% (14.0 -> 9.2) is down quite a lot from before the All-Star break to after, in roughly equal minutes on either side. An odd pattern, to be sure, so it would be interesting to know whether it corresponds to any chance in shot profile.

Mathews' 3-pt. % cratered in April -- but only shots taken either very early in the shot clock or very late in the shot clock. Shots taken anywhere in the middle range of the clock, he was still over 40%.

What do you make of that, Glizzy?


Small sample size first and foremost, to be honest. Beyond that... just a weird shot profile. I wouldn't really expect him to be taking many shots at all very early in the shot clock (that's like a Curry or Lillard move, waltz across half-court and immediately pull up; in a less happy time during this season, we did have a certain player with some of those same tendencies :lol:). Late in the shot clock is kind of the same thing - Garrison's not the guy we're feeding the ball in a "bailout" situation on a broken possession. There's no question that those are unenviable shots to have to take, though.

Now, considering that this data includes all of 11 total three pointers taken "very early" in the shot clock and 5 taken "very late," I'll circle back and settle on my original thought about the sample size.

Also, not sure where one would register the opinion that a discussion of the all-time greatest NBA point guards probably doesn't need to happen in this thread, or even on this particular board, but I'd like to do that. On the other hand, here I am taking a deep dive into Garrison Mathews stats on the Russ thread, so who am I to talk.

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