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Official Trade Thread -- Part XL

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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XL 

Post#1401 » by gambitx777 » Tue Apr 6, 2021 10:28 pm

That's where my phone defaults too and like I said they should have moved him.

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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XL 

Post#1402 » by The Consiglieri » Wed Apr 7, 2021 12:08 am

doclinkin wrote:
FAH1223 wrote:This guy who writes for the Action Network says Beal was nearly traded to the Knicks


The usual non-story until and unless it becomes true:

https://www.yardbarker.com/nba/articles/beal_or_no_deal_knicks_reportedly_interested_in_beal_barrett_on_the_move/s1_15032_34156808

“I’ve got it from a very good source that the Knicks are quietly interested in a Bradley Beal. How’s that gonna happen? He’s signed to a long-term deal. He has not said he wanted to be traded. But you forget, the Knicks have World Wide Wes on their side. He’s been in the ears of some of Beal’s people and kinda nudging them that this might be the time to push for a trade,” Kay said on his ESPN radio show last week.


It wouldn’t surprise me at all since they’re run by seeming competents now who are trying to build long term. Beals game will age well, and he’s a reasonable investment but what can they offer?
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XL 

Post#1403 » by The Consiglieri » Wed Apr 7, 2021 12:27 am

NatP4 wrote:I’m only trading Beal for a top 4 pick or multiple picks in the top 15.


The latter I definitely wouldn’t do. Need prime piece or pieces. A grab bag of lesser picks is a nightmare scenario.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XL 

Post#1404 » by Dat2U » Wed Apr 7, 2021 12:32 am

Ruzious wrote:Say you're Ujiri, and you're hired to do anything and everything you want - no restrictions. You can change the entire roster if you want - in your image. What do you end up with?


PF Rui Hachimura, Davis Bertans, Issac Bonga
SF Marcus Morris, Deni Avdija, Luke Kennard
C Thomas Bryant, Daniel Gafford, vet
SG Bradley Beal, Garrison Mathews, rookie
PG Patrick Beverley, Josh Giddey, vet

Coach:
1. Jay Wright
2. Kenny Atkinson
3. Dave Joerger

I keep it simple. Dump Westy. Draft his replacement. Get a real.coach. Get back to 'everyone eats', spread the floor philosophy based on ball movement. Lean on Morris & Beverley to instill a defensive focus. Draft Giddey as the PG of future in mid-lottery range. Focus internally on accountability for everyone. Prioritize development & health over regular season goals with the expectation that you'll have a stronger, healthier team come playoff time. Ensuring guys like Rui, Deni, Garrison & Josh have a clear understanding of their roles & consistent minutes in the rotation so they can just go play and not worry about a mistake getting them pulled. Everyone from the Pres of basketball ops to the janitor should have a plan of action to improve and clear open process of understanding & measuring progress.

Basically stop running things like a mom & pop organization with a 'fly by the seat of your pants' attitude and finally build the framework of a well run org. This matters as much as anything they do personnel wise.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XL 

Post#1405 » by gambitx777 » Wed Apr 7, 2021 12:41 am

It's really not though! Look at the 76ers. They built that **** from the ground up that way. So did boston and NO is looking good. NYK sort of is working that way and so did the grizz.
The Consiglieri wrote:
NatP4 wrote:I’m only trading Beal for a top 4 pick or multiple picks in the top 15.


The latter I definitely wouldn’t do. Need prime piece or pieces. A grab bag of lesser picks is a nightmare scenario.


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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XL 

Post#1406 » by Chaos Revenant » Wed Apr 7, 2021 1:27 am

At this point my position is that Russell Westbrook must play 0 minutes for the Washington Wizards in 2021-2022, and I would be willing to pay a steep price to make that happen.

Best case: Trade Westbrook for bad players on shorter contracts s and maybe and a 2n
Second best case: Trade Westbrook for a similarly bad player on a similarly bad contract
Other second best case: Buyout Westbrook, or sit him on the bench and pay him to not play.
Third best case: Trade Westbrook and Beal together for cap space and minor prospects
Fourth best case: Trade Westbrook and the 2021 1st (if and only if it is lower than top 4-5) to get Westbrook off the team.

Whatever an opposing team is willing to accept, short of trading one of Suggs/Cunningham/Mobley/Green, we do.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XL 

Post#1407 » by PaulinVA » Wed Apr 7, 2021 1:49 am

Fourth best case: Trade Westbrook and the 2021 1st (if and only if it is lower than top 4-5) to get Westbrook off the team

Respectfully, that would result in a net of Wall and our 2021 and 2023 1sts for..........nothing????
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XL 

Post#1408 » by Chaos Revenant » Wed Apr 7, 2021 2:11 am

PaulinVA wrote:Fourth best case: Trade Westbrook and the 2021 1st (if and only if it is lower than top 4-5) to get Westbrook off the team

Respectfully, that would result in a net of Wall and our 2021 and 2023 1sts for..........nothing????


Unfortunately, yeah. Technically there's no need to do this, but there's more pressure simply because Wall doesn't sabotage the development of our youth the way Westbrook does.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XL 

Post#1409 » by NatP4 » Wed Apr 7, 2021 2:18 am

The Consiglieri wrote:
NatP4 wrote:I’m only trading Beal for a top 4 pick or multiple picks in the top 15.


The latter I definitely wouldn’t do. Need prime piece or pieces. A grab bag of lesser picks is a nightmare scenario.


That’s fair. If I didn’t believe that Giddey&Wagner&Butler were criminally underrated and most likely available with 10-15 picks, I wouldn’t do it.

Definitely see the “A grade assets or nothing” side though.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XL 

Post#1410 » by nate33 » Wed Apr 7, 2021 2:33 am

Dat2U wrote:
Ruzious wrote:Say you're Ujiri, and you're hired to do anything and everything you want - no restrictions. You can change the entire roster if you want - in your image. What do you end up with?


PF Rui Hachimura, Davis Bertans, Issac Bonga
SF Marcus Morris, Deni Avdija, Luke Kennard
C Thomas Bryant, Daniel Gafford, vet
SG Bradley Beal, Garrison Mathews, rookie
PG Patrick Beverley, Josh Giddey, vet

Coach:
1. Jay Wright
2. Kenny Atkinson
3. Dave Joerger

Heck, that lineup looks pretty darn good if we lucked into Suggs instead of Giddey.

The Clippers trade also works if we got back Rondo instead of Kennard. We could then flip Rondo someplace else for a TPE or something.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XL 

Post#1411 » by payitforward » Wed Apr 7, 2021 2:43 am

Chaos Revenant wrote:At this point my position is that Russell Westbrook must play 0 minutes for the Washington Wizards in 2021-2022....

The problem is not exactly that Russell Westbrook is playing badly overall. If you look at his numbers over time this year, they've gotten better & better, & on the season he's actually quite good, well above average. He's not the MVP guy he was some years ago, but if you isolate his production it looks good overall -- even with the bonehead side of the ledger taken into account.

This goes to something nate was saying (& not only nate, for that matter) about the effect of a player's performance on the performance of other players. I've resisted this point of view, because it introduces extreme complexity into any attempt to judge players as individuals.

In most cases, I'm still resistant to the idea. But watching Russ on the floor, it can't be denied in his case: he basically makes everyone else worse. For which reason, the net of how good the team is doesn't get much benefit if any from his producing on his own.

Russ started the season hampered by a quad injury, & he didn't try to do as much on the floor as he is these days. It's no coincidence, I don't think, that as he has felt more & more able to (& free to) dominate the action we have seen Garrison Mathews' numbers go down, we've seen Deni's numbers go down, & in fact we've also seen some of Rui's numbers go down.

My guess is it's always been this way with Russ -- but that when he was putting up all-NBA numbers as an individual, his marginal effect on the other guys on the floor didn't matter as much. You could ignore it, b/c his team was still better w/ him on the floor than off.

Now, however, what he takes away from other players' productivity outweighs anything his dominance can add. Worse yet, because these other players are mostly young players, his floor dominance is seriously hampering their development.

Troy Brown's stagnation this year might have been virtually entirely a product of Russ. &, since Russ plays all but about 12.75 minutes of every game he plays, it's hard to work around this problem.

Since it's hard to imagine the problem lessening over time, I have to go with Chaos Revenant on this -- it doesn't matter how well Russell Westbrook plays; he's in the way of progress. In fact, you might even say that the better he plays the more of a problem he poses to the future of the Washington Wizards.

Does this make sense?
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XL 

Post#1412 » by Dat2U » Wed Apr 7, 2021 3:11 am

nate33 wrote:
Dat2U wrote:
Ruzious wrote:Say you're Ujiri, and you're hired to do anything and everything you want - no restrictions. You can change the entire roster if you want - in your image. What do you end up with?


PF Rui Hachimura, Davis Bertans, Issac Bonga
SF Marcus Morris, Deni Avdija, Luke Kennard
C Thomas Bryant, Daniel Gafford, vet
SG Bradley Beal, Garrison Mathews, rookie
PG Patrick Beverley, Josh Giddey, vet

Coach:
1. Jay Wright
2. Kenny Atkinson
3. Dave Joerger

Heck, that lineup looks pretty darn good if we lucked into Suggs instead of Giddey.

The Clippers trade also works if we got back Rondo instead of Kennard. We could then flip Rondo someplace else for a TPE or something.


I didn't bother using the MLE in this scenario, although I wouldn't be against adding an upgrade at C.

In lieu of not landing a high draft pick, the option is either a blow up OR try to pull off what good organizations can pull off... prioritize scouting, internal development and and a strong organization foundation to maximize the assets you do have. Then maybe you can use those assets or resources to get the players you need.

I'm also of the belief that no one is untouchable. If a team did offer a top 3 pick along with additional assets for Beal, I would be tempted to do it. However if Beal continued to show his commitment to remaining in DC for his career, I'd try to put an eventual contender around him.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XL 

Post#1413 » by 9 and 20 » Wed Apr 7, 2021 3:21 am

payitforward wrote:
Chaos Revenant wrote:At this point my position is that Russell Westbrook must play 0 minutes for the Washington Wizards in 2021-2022....

The problem is not exactly that Russell Westbrook is playing badly overall. If you look at his numbers over time this year, they've gotten better & better, & on the season he's actually quite good, well above average. He's not the MVP guy he was some years ago, but if you isolate his production it looks good overall -- even with the bonehead side of the ledger taken into account.

This goes to something nate was saying (& not only nate, for that matter) about the effect of a player's performance on the performance of other players. I've resisted this point of view, because it introduces extreme complexity into any attempt to judge players as individuals.

In most cases, I'm still resistant to the idea. But watching Russ on the floor, it can't be denied in his case: he basically makes everyone else worse. For which reason, the net of how good the team is doesn't get much benefit if any from his producing on his own.

Russ started the season hampered by a quad injury, & he didn't try to do as much on the floor as he is these days. It's no coincidence, I don't think, that as he has felt more & more able to (& free to) dominate the action we have seen Garrison Mathews' numbers go down, we've seen Deni's numbers go down, & in fact we've also seen some of Rui's numbers go down.

My guess is it's always been this way with Russ -- but that when he was putting up all-NBA numbers as an individual, his marginal effect on the other guys on the floor didn't matter as much. You could ignore it, b/c his team was still better w/ him on the floor than off.

Now, however, what he takes away from other players' productivity outweighs anything his dominance can add. Worse yet, because these other players are mostly young players, his floor dominance is seriously hampering their development.

Troy Brown's stagnation this year might have been virtually entirely a product of Russ. &, since Russ plays all but about 12.75 minutes of every game he plays, it's hard to work around this problem.

Since it's hard to imagine the problem lessening over time, I have to go with Chaos Revenant on this -- it doesn't matter how well Russell Westbrook plays; he's in the way of progress. In fact, you might even say that the better he plays the more of a problem he poses to the future of the Washington Wizards.

Does this make sense?


Why would you resist that idea only (or mostly or partly) because of the complexity it brings with it? Basketball is very much a team game where one guy's play impacts others. If the goal is just to judge players as individuals, I guess it's fine. But it won't, in and of itself, help build a good team.

Also, I think nearly everyone will agree that it's hard to build a good team around Westbrook because of the way he plays. That's something many other teams have struggled with.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XL 

Post#1414 » by gesa2 » Wed Apr 7, 2021 11:46 am

payitforward wrote:
Chaos Revenant wrote:At this point my position is that Russell Westbrook must play 0 minutes for the Washington Wizards in 2021-2022....


This goes to something nate was saying (& not only nate, for that matter) about the effect of a player's performance on the performance of other players. I've resisted this point of view, because it introduces extreme complexity into any attempt to judge players as individuals.

In most cases, I'm still resistant to the idea. But watching Russ on the floor, it can't be denied in his case: he basically makes everyone else worse. For which reason, the net of how good the team is doesn't get much benefit if any from his producing on his own.

Russ started the season hampered by a quad injury, & he didn't try to do as much on the floor as he is these days. It's no coincidence, I don't think, that as he has felt more & more able to (& free to) dominate the action we have seen Garrison Mathews' numbers go down, we've seen Deni's numbers go down, & in fact we've also seen some of Rui's numbers go down.


Is this PIF endorsing ....

The eye test????

Never thought I’d see it!
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XL 

Post#1415 » by pcbothwel » Wed Apr 7, 2021 12:58 pm

Ruzious wrote:Say you're Ujiri, and you're hired to do anything and everything you want - no restrictions. You can change the entire roster if you want - in your image. What do you end up with?


1) Nat "Westbrook goes to the clippers for Morris, Kennard, and Beverly" I'd also require their 1st.

2) Send Morris to a 3rd team for savings + mid 2nd

3) Nat "Play it conservative and say the wiz land the 6th overall pick" Seems fair

4) Re sign Bonga & Mathews

5) Hire new coach.... not worried about that detail as im focused more on the roster in this post

Draft picks:

6: Springer / Wagner
25: Queta / Duarte / Dosunmu / Mann
~45: Makoundou / Prkacin / Lewis


Beverly - Springer - Winston
Beal - Mathews - Kennard
Avdija - Kennard - Bonga
Hachimura - Bertans - Bonga
Gafford - Bryant - Queta
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XL 

Post#1416 » by payitforward » Wed Apr 7, 2021 3:20 pm

gesa2 wrote:
payitforward wrote:
Chaos Revenant wrote:At this point my position is that Russell Westbrook must play 0 minutes for the Washington Wizards in 2021-2022....


This goes to something nate was saying (& not only nate, for that matter) about the effect of a player's performance on the performance of other players. I've resisted this point of view, because it introduces extreme complexity into any attempt to judge players as individuals.

In most cases, I'm still resistant to the idea. But watching Russ on the floor, it can't be denied in his case: he basically makes everyone else worse. For which reason, the net of how good the team is doesn't get much benefit if any from his producing on his own.

Russ started the season hampered by a quad injury, & he didn't try to do as much on the floor as he is these days. It's no coincidence, I don't think, that as he has felt more & more able to (& free to) dominate the action we have seen Garrison Mathews' numbers go down, we've seen Deni's numbers go down, & in fact we've also seen some of Rui's numbers go down.


Is this PIF endorsing ....

The eye test????

Never thought I’d see it!

You didn't!

It's not the eye test -- it's the effect of one player on the ability of other players to get to play the game. That's in the numbers.

There's nothing the matter with numbers. Numbers aren't "simple." Numbers aren't "artificial." Numbers aren't "misleading." Numbers are about as complicated as anything the human mind has created.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XL 

Post#1417 » by payitforward » Wed Apr 7, 2021 3:57 pm

9 and 20 wrote:
payitforward wrote:
Chaos Revenant wrote:At this point my position is that Russell Westbrook must play 0 minutes for the Washington Wizards in 2021-2022....

The problem is not exactly that Russell Westbrook is playing badly overall. If you look at his numbers over time this year, they've gotten better & better, & on the season he's actually quite good, well above average. He's not the MVP guy he was some years ago, but if you isolate his production it looks good overall -- even with the bonehead side of the ledger taken into account.

This goes to something nate was saying (& not only nate, for that matter)
about the effect of a player's performance on the performance of other players. I've resisted this point of view, because it introduces extreme complexity into any attempt to judge players as individuals.

In most cases, I'm still resistant to the idea. But watching Russ on the floor, it can't be denied in his case: he basically makes everyone else worse. For which reason, the net of how good the team is doesn't get much benefit if any from his producing on his own.

Russ started the season hampered by a quad injury, & he didn't try to do as much on the floor as he is these days. It's no coincidence, I don't think, that as he has felt more & more able to (& free to) dominate the action we have seen Garrison Mathews' numbers go down, we've seen Deni's numbers go down, & in fact we've also seen some of Rui's numbers go down.

My guess is it's always been this way with Russ -- but that when he was putting up all-NBA numbers as an individual, his marginal effect on the other guys on the floor didn't matter as much. You could ignore it, b/c his team was still better w/ him on the floor than off.

Now, however, what he takes away from other players' productivity outweighs anything his dominance can add. Worse yet, because these other players are mostly young players, his floor dominance is seriously hampering their development.

Troy Brown's stagnation this year might have been virtually entirely a product of Russ. &, since Russ plays all but about 12.75 minutes of every game he plays, it's hard to work around this problem.

Since it's hard to imagine the problem lessening over time, I have to go with Chaos Revenant on this -- it doesn't matter how well Russell Westbrook plays; he's in the way of progress. In fact, you might even say that the better he plays the more of a problem he poses to the future of the Washington Wizards.

Does this make sense?


Why would you resist that idea only (or mostly or partly) because of the complexity it brings with it?....

By "complexity" I mean something other than "more difficult because more complicated." Viz. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complexity

9 and 20 wrote:Basketball is very much a team game where one guy's play impacts others. If the goal is just to judge players as individuals, I guess it's fine. But it won't, in and of itself, help build a good team....

Nothing helps anything "in and of itself," but if I am going to draft a player or trade for a player, I need to develop some reliable way to develop an idea of how good that player is. If I'm unable to figure that out, I won't draft or trade well, will I?

If you mean to go further & say that, somehow, there simply is no such thing as an independent idea of how good an individual player is, then... chaos. But, in fact, being able to "judge players as individual" will certainly "...help build a good team" !!

Anyone can draft Ja Morant, but those young smartniks who started running the Memphis FO a couple of years ago also knew to pick Brandon Clarke #21 in 2019.

& they also knew enough to trade for the #30 pick in the 2020 draft & pick Desmond Bane.

& they also knew enough to trade up 5 spots in R2 to get Xavier Tillman.

Anyway, you know that's true. If I bring together LeBron, Wade & Bosh my biggest concern is NOT about how their play as individuals impacts each other. Tho of course you would hope that a really good player also makes it easier rather than harder for other players to be effective.

Positive synergies -- Jerry Rice made Joe Montana more effective, but that's a bit different from making him "better."

So, you are still right that in a team game "one guy's play impacts others." The greatest quarterback in the world won't look good if his receivers don't run routes well & have bad hands. IOW, the better two players are as individuals (Montana & Rice) the more significant their positive synergies can be.

& that's where the oddity & disappointment come in w/ respect to Russell Westbrook.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XL 

Post#1418 » by prime1time » Wed Apr 7, 2021 5:48 pm

Chaos Revenant wrote:At this point my position is that Russell Westbrook must play 0 minutes for the Washington Wizards in 2021-2022, and I would be willing to pay a steep price to make that happen.

Best case: Trade Westbrook for bad players on shorter contracts s and maybe and a 2n
Second best case: Trade Westbrook for a similarly bad player on a similarly bad contract
Other second best case: Buyout Westbrook, or sit him on the bench and pay him to not play.
Third best case: Trade Westbrook and Beal together for cap space and minor prospects
Fourth best case: Trade Westbrook and the 2021 1st (if and only if it is lower than top 4-5) to get Westbrook off the team.

Whatever an opposing team is willing to accept, short of trading one of Suggs/Cunningham/Mobley/Green, we do.

And what would getting Westbrook off the team do?
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XL 

Post#1419 » by WallToWall » Wed Apr 7, 2021 6:00 pm

1. I would not trade Westbrook. He has value as a bench player. Bring him in when the opponents starters are sitting, and he will destroy the opponent. Just build a bench unit that fits his style of play.
2. More than likely, the coach will not be in that role with the Wizards next season. Why are we wanting to make moves now, before a new coach is in place? Wouldn't it be better to pick the coach first, and then figure out the players to go after/trade?
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XL 

Post#1420 » by prime1time » Wed Apr 7, 2021 6:00 pm

As is often the case, it's easier to criticize other plans than to put together an actual plan. I'm not giving up anything to get rid of Westbrook. Trading Westbrook and Beal for cap space and minor prospects would be a disaster. Cap space to do what with? MInor prospects that will never become stars? If we trade Beal we are rebuilding. Why should I give something up for Westbrook? No prospect on this team is good enough to where I am that concerned about their development that I'm willing to package Beal to get rid of Westbrook. If we are rebuilding, I keep Westbrook or I buy him out. The notion that there is some massive sense of urgency to move Westbrook is ludicrous. A rebuild means you're building a team 5 to 7 years in the future.

The "damage" that could be done by keeping Westbrook doesn't even come close to the damage that could be done by trading Beal just to get rid of him. In fact I find it funny that your worst case is trading a 2021 1st that might include Suggs, Cunningham, Mobley/Green. Beal could bring in a haul of a high 2021 1st (Wolves 2021 1st via Warriors) and multiple other assets.

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