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Wizards trade Brown and Wagner for Gafford and Hutchinson

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Re: Wizards trade Brown and Wagner for Gafford and Hutchinson 

Post#181 » by payitforward » Sun Mar 28, 2021 4:09 pm

AWIZZINGBULLET wrote:
payitforward wrote:
AWIZZINGBULLET wrote:So we're low-key picking apart Gafford's game, but still posting like Troy Brown Jr. is on the cusp of breaking out of his shell and blossoming into what we hoped he'd be when drafted?

That stat line looks about right, but the caption leads me to believe that someone in the Bulls org. thinks that with double the minutes they'd get double the production every night.

That's where they'd probably be wrong.

Maybe you could find it in your heart to wish the guy well...? Sheesh!

Where am I wishing him the worst?..

Where are you wishing him well...?

But... peace. I reacted out of emotion. You have my apologies....

AWIZZINGBULLET wrote:...By acquiring Gafford we got the better of the trade. Flat out.

I have high hopes for Hutchison too to tell the truth....

But you probably mean that the addition of Gafford tips the trade in our direction. You may be right -- I liked him a lot in the 2019 draft. I was hoping we'd buy one of Philly's high R2 picks (rather than the #42, which we used to acquire Admiral), & Gafford was one of my targets.

AWIZZINGBULLET wrote:Sheppard is proving that he is not Grunfeld 2.0. He's changing the culture for the better each season even when lacking the assets.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. What his upside is as a GM I don't know. But, he's nothing like Ernie.
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Re: Wizards trade Brown and Wagner for Gafford and Hutchinson 

Post#182 » by FAH1223 » Sun Mar 28, 2021 4:19 pm

nate33 wrote:It's interesting that the Wizards didn't unload Bonga at the Trade Deadline. Maybe there were no offers, but maybe they intend to keep him.

I'm a little worried that there is significant redundancy between Bonga and Hutchinson - both are long wings who can't shoot. Do we want both on the roster next year?


David Aldridge was saying the same thing on the “Wizards After Dark” podcast.

DA said that Bonga is a guy he wants to see actually develop because the defensive ability is right there.
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Re: Wizards trade Brown and Wagner for Gafford and Hutchinson 

Post#183 » by DCZards » Sun Mar 28, 2021 4:20 pm

payitforward wrote:As with most trades, every participant took some risk in return for the opportunity for some benefit.

Boston lowered its salary to get under the tax, taking the risk that Wagner would provide much of the benefit Theis provided -- sufficient IOW that the bigger, more costly trade for Fournier was worth doing.

The Bulls got rid of a big problem in Chandler Hutchison -- a guy who isn't with the team. They got a very talented 21 year old who is underperforming. That trade straight up would have been a huge win for them. But, they had to give Gafford to make it happen.

We got something for Wagner even though we'd declined his option. & we rolled the dice that Chandler Hutchison will be a player. If he isn't able to play, then the idea that we "...won in the deal" will obviously be altogether wrong.

Like you, I'm a huge Troy Brown fan and I think it was a mistake to trade him. But we won't know for awhile whether a Hutchison-Brown trade would have been a win for the Zards or Bulls. We'll have to wait until we see how they actually perform on the court...assuming Chandler plays.

But the real "get" in the trade from the Zards standpoint was Gafford. I see this more as a Gafford for Brown trade...not a Hutchison for Brown trade. The Bulls didn't have to "give Gafford" to make the trade happen. They had to throw in Hutchison to make it happen.
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Re: Wizards trade Brown and Wagner for Gafford and Hutchinson 

Post#184 » by dckingsfan » Sun Mar 28, 2021 4:29 pm

I am pretty much in disagreement for those that didn't want to trade Brown. We just waited too long, I think his value was much higher this summer. It was clear that he was not a fit in Brooks' system and that we needed a rim protector more than a guard that wouldn't be played.
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Re: Wizards trade Brown and Wagner for Gafford and Hutchinson 

Post#185 » by payitforward » Sun Mar 28, 2021 4:32 pm

AWIZZINGBULLET wrote:
payitforward wrote:Overall, our salary structure changes, but whether the change is beneficial depends entirely on Hutchison's future.

Hutchison will cost us $1m less than Troy would have. Gafford is under contract for $1.8m. If you assume we would have kept Wagner & paid him @$2m, the result is that we've saved $1m.

OTOH, if Hutchison isn't able to play, it's a problem: he takes up a roster spot, & his $$ is guaranteed.
AWIZZINGBULLET wrote:Wizards won in the deal. Easily.

As with most trades, every participant took some risk in return for the opportunity for some benefit.

Boston lowered its salary to get under the tax, taking the risk that Wagner would provide much of the benefit Theis provided -- sufficient IOW that the bigger, more costly trade for Fournier was worth doing.

The Bulls got rid of a big problem in Chandler Hutchison -- a guy who isn't with the team. They got a very talented 21 year old who is underperforming. That trade straight up would have been a huge win for them. But, they had to give Gafford to make it happen.

We got something for Wagner even though we'd declined his option. & we rolled the dice that Chandler Hutchison will be a player. If he isn't able to play, then the idea that we "...won in the deal" will obviously be altogether wrong.

Now how was Chandler Hutchison a big problem for Chicago? Was he disruptive? Did he have a max contract that only the Wizards were willing to take on? And if by "isn't with the team", you mean the Wizards, I think you are off there, because unless I'm mistaken, I saw him speaking with Deni Avdija on the sidelines during last night's game against the Pistons.

Troy Brown Jr. has a unique skillset at his size and position; he does nothing to lose ballgames and is remarkable at nothing, and Hutchison has a lot of proving to do, so do you really think that a straight-up trade of Brown Jr. for Hutchison is something that Sheppard would've even entertained?

Mo Wagner, Troy Brown Jr., and Davis Bertans were my top trade candidates because everything they offered (minus Bertans' shooting) was easily replaceable.

Gafford has already shown what his presence could mean for the team defensively in the future.

When I say that the Wizards won the trade, I say that mostly with Chicago in mind (not that it stops at Chicago), and that opinion's based on future potential and immediate impact.

You sound like a person that believes Troy Brown Jr. was the prize in this trade, if the case, you've got it wrong.

I'm not going to address your last point -- it'll just generate a pointless argument.

Not to mention that Gafford coming out & killing it in 14 minutes makes more of a point for your take on the trade than any opinion either of us has! :) As I've written -- I was high on him in the '19 draft.

As to Hutchison, I liked him in the 2018 draft. Watching the interview a few posts above certainly was reassuring re: his "personal problem," but it's still some kind of an open issue -- esp. given that he's going to turn 25 in August.

Above all, I hope Hutchison is the confident, composed & obviously intelligent kid we see in that interview; I wish Troy Brown -- an outstanding young man -- great success in Chicago & the same to Moe Wagner in Boston.

Let's have it be a trade everybody wins. How about that? :)
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Re: Wizards trade Brown and Wagner for Gafford and Hutchinson 

Post#186 » by payitforward » Sun Mar 28, 2021 4:39 pm

DCZards wrote:
payitforward wrote:As with most trades, every participant took some risk in return for the opportunity for some benefit.

Boston lowered its salary to get under the tax, taking the risk that Wagner would provide much of the benefit Theis provided -- sufficient IOW that the bigger, more costly trade for Fournier was worth doing.

The Bulls got rid of a big problem in Chandler Hutchison -- a guy who isn't with the team. They got a very talented 21 year old who is underperforming. That trade straight up would have been a huge win for them. But, they had to give Gafford to make it happen.

We got something for Wagner even though we'd declined his option. & we rolled the dice that Chandler Hutchison will be a player. If he isn't able to play, then the idea that we "...won in the deal" will obviously be altogether wrong.

Like you, I'm a huge Troy Brown fan and I think it was a mistake to trade him. But we won't know for awhile whether a Hutchison-Brown trade would have been a win for the Zards or Celts. We'll have to wait until we see how they actually perform on the court...assuming Chandler plays.

But the real "get" in the trade from the Zards standpoint was Gafford. I see this more as a Gafford for Brown trade...not a Hutchison for Brown trade. The Bulls didn't have to "give Gafford" to make the trade happen. They had to throw in Hutchison to make it happen.

Like you I think Gafford is a terrific low-cost addition. What I meant above was that for the Bulls the trade seemed mainly intended to move Hutchison, which they couldn't do without giving Gafford too.

Meanwhile, let's get Chandler on the court & see what we've got. I remember him having quite a good game against us as a rookie; now let's see what he can do for us. :)
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Re: Wizards trade Brown and Wagner for Gafford and Hutchinson 

Post#187 » by AWIZZINGBULLET » Sun Mar 28, 2021 6:27 pm

nate33 wrote:It's interesting that the Wizards didn't unload Bonga at the Trade Deadline. Maybe there were no offers, but maybe they intend to keep him.

I'm a little worried that there is significant redundancy between Bonga and Hutchinson - both are long wings who can't shoot. Do we want both on the roster next year?




I think Chandler Hutchison may have an advantage over Bonga.

I looked at Hutchison's Boise State highlights and he had some offensively ability. He shot the three in certain games and he could put the ball on the floor somewhat. He doesn't seem to be particularly explosive or have elite lateral quickness as a defender, but in the little portion of the interview that I watched he seems to hold his defensive ability in high regard, so I'm hopeful that he knows himself a little better than those evaluating him from afar.

I feel Bonga is slightly overrated defensively and that is due to him being so slight, lacking explosiveness, and strength; in a battle with Hutchison for last roster spot, I'd lean towards Hutchison winning out because like Bonga, he has the length you look for in a perimeter defender, but unlike Bonga, I think scoring is somewhere in his basketball DNA.
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Re: Wizards trade Brown and Wagner for Gafford and Hutchinson 

Post#188 » by nate33 » Sun Mar 28, 2021 6:44 pm

AWIZZINGBULLET wrote:
nate33 wrote:It's interesting that the Wizards didn't unload Bonga at the Trade Deadline. Maybe there were no offers, but maybe they intend to keep him.

I'm a little worried that there is significant redundancy between Bonga and Hutchinson - both are long wings who can't shoot. Do we want both on the roster next year?




I think Chandler Hutchison may have an advantage over Bonga.

I looked at Hutchison's Boise State highlights and he had some offensively ability. He shot the three in certain games and he could put the ball on the floor somewhat. He doesn't seem to be particularly explosive or have elite lateral quickness as a defender, but in the little portion of the interview that I watched he seems to hold his defensive ability in high regard, so I'm hopeful that he knows himself a little better than those evaluating him from afar.

I feel Bonga is slightly overrated defensively and that is due to him being so slight, lacking explosiveness, and strength; in a battle with Hutchison for last roster spot, I'd lean towards Hutchison winning out because like Bonga, he has the length you look for in a perimeter defender, but unlike Bonga, I think scoring is somewhere in his basketball DNA.


Hutchinson looks better as a basketball player. He is a more fluid athlete and his shooting form looks pretty normal. But Bonga actually makes more of his shots, which is alarming.

My guess is that the ultimate arbitrator between the two players is the fact that Hutchinson is under contract and Bonga isn't. For that reason, I expect Hutchinson to be on the roster next year. Bonga will only be around if he signs for vet minimum type money - maybe a bit more.
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Re: Wizards trade Brown and Wagner for Gafford and Hutchinson 

Post#189 » by BallinBug » Sun Mar 28, 2021 7:07 pm

nate33 wrote:It's interesting that the Wizards didn't unload Bonga at the Trade Deadline. Maybe there were no offers, but maybe they intend to keep him.

I'm a little worried that there is significant redundancy between Bonga and Hutchinson - both are long wings who can't shoot. Do we want both on the roster next year?


Why do people only bring this up with defensive guys? Is there too much overlap between curry and Thompson? Both just shoot the 3 at a high level.
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Re: Wizards trade Brown and Wagner for Gafford and Hutchinson 

Post#190 » by nate33 » Sun Mar 28, 2021 7:32 pm

BallinBug wrote:
nate33 wrote:It's interesting that the Wizards didn't unload Bonga at the Trade Deadline. Maybe there were no offers, but maybe they intend to keep him.

I'm a little worried that there is significant redundancy between Bonga and Hutchinson - both are long wings who can't shoot. Do we want both on the roster next year?


Why do people only bring this up with defensive guys? Is there too much overlap between curry and Thompson? Both just shoot the 3 at a high level.

Thompson is a two way player. Obviously, he can play well alongside Curry. But Bonga and Hutchinson are terrible offensive players. In the NBA today, you can't put two terrible offensive players on the floor at the same time, particularly if they're both wings.
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Re: Wizards trade Brown and Wagner for Gafford and Hutchinson 

Post#191 » by AWIZZINGBULLET » Sun Mar 28, 2021 8:37 pm

nate33 wrote:
AWIZZINGBULLET wrote:
nate33 wrote:It's interesting that the Wizards didn't unload Bonga at the Trade Deadline. Maybe there were no offers, but maybe they intend to keep him.

I'm a little worried that there is significant redundancy between Bonga and Hutchinson - both are long wings who can't shoot. Do we want both on the roster next year?




I think Chandler Hutchison may have an advantage over Bonga.

I looked at Hutchison's Boise State highlights and he had some offensively ability. He shot the three in certain games and he could put the ball on the floor somewhat. He doesn't seem to be particularly explosive or have elite lateral quickness as a defender, but in the little portion of the interview that I watched he seems to hold his defensive ability in high regard, so I'm hopeful that he knows himself a little better than those evaluating him from afar.

I feel Bonga is slightly overrated defensively and that is due to him being so slight, lacking explosiveness, and strength; in a battle with Hutchison for last roster spot, I'd lean towards Hutchison winning out because like Bonga, he has the length you look for in a perimeter defender, but unlike Bonga, I think scoring is somewhere in his basketball DNA.


Hutchinson looks better as a basketball player. He is a more fluid athlete and his shooting form looks pretty normal. But Bonga actually makes more of his shots, which is alarming.

My guess is that the ultimate arbitrator between the two players is the fact that Hutchinson is under contract and Bonga isn't. For that reason, I expect Hutchinson to be on the roster next year. Bonga will only be around if he signs for vet minimum type money - maybe a bit more.


Contracts aside, Hutchison is the more aggressive of the two offensively, and if both are pretty sound defensively, then the nod would have to go to Hutchison I'd think.

Hutchison doesn't turn the ball over a lot which would suggest that he's not reckless and as you mentioned, his shooting form looks normal, so perhaps he continues to raise his 3-point % as he's done so far each season.

I think he will equal if not surpass the offensive output of Troy Brown Jr. if given the same playing time.
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Re: Wizards trade Brown and Wagner for Gafford and Hutchinson 

Post#192 » by payitforward » Sun Mar 28, 2021 9:13 pm

nate33 wrote:...Hutchinson looks better as a basketball player. He is a more fluid athlete and his shooting form looks pretty normal. But Bonga actually makes more of his shots, which is alarming.

My guess is that the ultimate arbitrator between the two players is the fact that Hutchinson is under contract and Bonga isn't. For that reason, I expect Hutchinson to be on the roster next year. Bonga will only be around if he signs for vet minimum type money - maybe a bit more.

We have an option on Bonga for $2.1m, which I will be very surprised if we do not pick up. Bonga is 21 years old. A full 3 year difference between him & Hutchison. Giving up on guys who are as young as Bonga is a major mistake.

Last off season we somehow managed all of us to convince one another that the Wizards were going to be a pretty good team. We weren't. We aren't. We aren't going to be next year either. There is no shortcut for this team. There is no royal road to becoming a good team.

As fans, there is no cost to us when we intoxicate ourselves with pictures that we think are reality but which, in fact, we've made up. If the FO does it, however, we will be further up sh*t's creek than we already are.

Next year, we're going to have this team -- the team we have this year, the team that is 16-28 & not improving. Only Russ will be a year older; he won't be as good next year. We'll also have a rookie taken high in R1. That's a nice thing, but it isn't going to lead to improvement in his first year.

With our current set of guaranteed contracts plus that rookie, picking up Gafford's option & signing Mathews at, say, $3m, we will be at $127m for 10 players. Then what? I hope we will buy a R2 pick -- you can't add only 1 rookie to a colossally crappy team like ours.

In that context, you want to let Isaac Bonga's $2.1m option elapse?
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Re: Wizards trade Brown and Wagner for Gafford and Hutchinson 

Post#193 » by nate33 » Sun Mar 28, 2021 9:18 pm

payitforward wrote:
nate33 wrote:...Hutchinson looks better as a basketball player. He is a more fluid athlete and his shooting form looks pretty normal. But Bonga actually makes more of his shots, which is alarming.

My guess is that the ultimate arbitrator between the two players is the fact that Hutchinson is under contract and Bonga isn't. For that reason, I expect Hutchinson to be on the roster next year. Bonga will only be around if he signs for vet minimum type money - maybe a bit more.

We have an option on Bonga for $2.1m, which I will be very surprised if we do not pick up. Bonga is 21 years old. A full 3 year difference between him & Hutchison. Giving up on guys who are as young as Bonga is a major mistake.

Last off season we somehow managed all of us to convince one another that the Wizards were going to be a pretty good team. We weren't. We aren't. We aren't going to be next year either. There is no shortcut for this team. There is no royal road to becoming a good team.

As fans, there is no cost to us when we intoxicate ourselves with pictures that we think are reality but which, in fact, we've made up. If the FO does it, however, we will be further up sh*t's creek than we already are.

Next year, we're going to have this team -- the team we have this year, the team that is 16-28 & not improving. Only Russ will be a year older; he won't be as good next year. We'll also have a rookie taken high in R1. That's a nice thing, but it isn't going to lead to improvement in his first year.

With our current set of guaranteed contracts plus that rookie, picking up Gafford's option & signing Mathews at, say, $3m, we will be at $127m for 10 players. Then what? I hope we will buy a R2 pick -- you can't add only 1 rookie to a colossally crappy team like ours.

In that context, you want to let Isaac Bonga's $2.1m option elapse?

Yeah, I'd probably opt in on that $2.1M option. I figure Bonga has more upside that whatever G-League guy we would use to fill his slot.
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Re: Wizards trade Brown and Wagner for Gafford and Hutchinson 

Post#194 » by DCZards » Sun Mar 28, 2021 10:24 pm

payitforward wrote:
Next year, we're going to have this team -- the team we have this year, the team that is 16-28 & not improving. Only Russ will be a year older; he won't be as good next year. We'll also have a rookie taken high in R1. That's a nice thing, but it isn't going to lead to improvement in his first year.

While I share your view that next year’s team won’t be a whole lot better than this year’s Zards, I am a bit more optimistic.

The Zards will get back one of its best offensive players (Bryant); Gafford looks like he should help with one of the team’s most glaring weaknesses (rim protection); Rui has made significant strides on both ends of the court so you hope that that continues; you’d expect Deni & Mathews (especially Advija) to be better next season; and, if we’re lucky enough to draft a Cunningham, Suggs or Mobley, the Zards could very well have a rookie that makes an immediate positive impact.

I’d also look to bring in a vet PF on a cheap, short-term contract to come off the bench and give the Zards more experience on the frontline, someone like JaMychal Green who is a very good 3 pt shooter and floor stretcher.
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Re: Wizards trade Brown and Wagner for Gafford and Hutchinson 

Post#195 » by doclinkin » Sun Mar 28, 2021 10:42 pm

AWIZZINGBULLET wrote:
Contracts aside, Hutchison is the more aggressive of the two offensively, and if both are pretty sound defensively, then the nod would have to go to Hutchison I'd think.

Hutchison doesn't turn the ball over a lot which would suggest that he's not reckless and as you mentioned


He's got about a 1:1 assist to TO ratio. The same as in college. He passed more in college, and handled more, so averaged more TOs and assists both. His foul rate was headed the wrong direction in the NBA, but it is a limited sample size since he missed so many games.
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Re: Wizards trade Brown and Wagner for Gafford and Hutchinson 

Post#196 » by NatP4 » Sun Mar 28, 2021 11:13 pm

dckingsfan wrote:I am pretty much in disagreement for those that didn't want to trade Brown. We just waited too long, I think his value was much higher this summer. It was clear that he was not a fit in Brooks' system and that we needed a rim protector more than a guard that wouldn't be played.


He was completely misused and underdeveloped. We traded him at the wrong time. Absolutely sold low, but Brown will never be much more than an off the bench combo guard with average to below average defensive impact, so trading him for a young athletic rim protector, with an extra year on his rookie deal, is a great trade IMO.
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Re: Wizards trade Brown and Wagner for Gafford and Hutchinson 

Post#197 » by payitforward » Sun Mar 28, 2021 11:18 pm

Look... I hope Chandler Hutchison works out for us, but this was a trade between two teams that wanted to get rid of players. The Bulls did not want to keep Chandler Hutchison. To get rid of him, they were willing to take Troy Brown -- a player whom you guys hyping Hutchison think is not at all good & whom, obviously, the Wizards had given up on & wanted to get rid of.

As to Hutchison, the first thing is to hope that he can play in the league. That hasn't been shown. & for that reason, there is no one on planet earth whose option we would turn down just because our having Hutchison under contract somehow means we don't need that guy.

To make it concrete:

This year, Troy played 287 minutes for us. Chandler Hutchison played 64 minutes. Troy was bad. Hutchison was much worse. Last year, Troy played 1785 minutes & played very well. Chandler Hutchison played 527 minutes -- he wasn't nearly as good as Brown. As rookies, on the other hand, they were both pretty good all in all though neither played all that much -- Hutchison played a little more & a little better. At the start of their rookie year, Hutchison was already 22. Troy was 19. Hutchison had played 2000 minutes of college ball before Troy even started college!

I hope Chandler Hutchison can play basketball in the NBA with some success of some kind. That's as far as it goes.
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Re: Wizards trade Brown and Wagner for Gafford and Hutchinson 

Post#198 » by SUPERBALLMAN » Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:20 am

I'd like to see them keep Bryant, Gafford and Len next year. Hopefully Bryant comes back and doesn't miss a beat, Gafford as an athletic defensive sub, Len for depth and size when needed.
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Re: Wizards trade Brown and Wagner for Gafford and Hutchinson 

Post#199 » by payitforward » Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:33 am

I agree w/ that -- Len has been pretty productive. Bryant has always been one of my favorites.

& one thing is sure about this trade -- it's terrific to have Gafford. To me at least, that is a really solid outcome all on its own. Tho I hate losing Troy Brown Jr.
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Re: Wizards trade Brown and Wagner for Gafford and Hutchinson 

Post#200 » by Kanyewest » Mon Mar 29, 2021 3:31 am

nate33 wrote:
FAH1223 wrote:
Read on Twitter

Troy Brown first got in the game late in the 3rd quarter when the Bulls were down 28. Basically, it was exclusively garbage time.

That doesn't mean Brown won't be successful in Chicago, but the performance last night is essentially meaningless.


I was going to post the same thing which makes my post essentially meaningless :D

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