Rui Hachimura 2.0

[prime1time]

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Unsurprisingly, this is precisely what I argued. All the talk about plus/minus, his defense, whether or not he's a good player is irrelevant. Because he gives them precisely what they need. A functional wing defender who can shoot the 3. They had Patty Mills, Goran Dragin and Bruce Brown guarding Tatum. If they add Rui to the mix and Joe Harris comes back now they have a lineup of Irving - Harris - Rui - KD - Claxton. Given our gluttony of forwards and our need for a pg, we will have to consider making a move for Simmons and shipping out some of our forwards and whatever else they might want.

But I must say, the posters on this board who hate on Rui always strike me as funny. On the one hand, they write about how he's not good and then, on the other hand, they write that we should trade him. When you trade something that doesn't have value, guess what you get back? Something that doesn't have value.

As terrible as people on this board claim Rui is, as disastrous as people on this board claim it will be to extend him, and in spite of all the arguments that people on this board make claiming that Rui doesn't play winning basketball on a team like the Nets where he fits the needs of the team and compliments the superstars that are on the team, Hachimura would be a godsend.

The real question is it worth taking a flyer on Simmons. For me the answer is clearly yes. Porzingis can space the floor. And we need a big pg with Beal so that we can some kind of functional defense.

Simmons - Beal - Kispert - Avdija - Porzingis

Is a very solid lineup.

The real question is this, what would it take to get Simmons. I can't imagine much. And do we feel comfortable adding a piece like Simmons who has so many non-basketball problems going on...

[B8RcDeMktfxC]

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Unsurprisingly, this is precisely what I argued. All the talk about plus/minus, his defense, whether or not he's a good player is irrelevant. Because he gives them precisely what they need. A functional wing defender who can shoot the 3. They had Patty Mills, Goran Dragin and Bruce Brown guarding Tatum. If they add Rui to the mix and Joe Harris comes back now they have a lineup of Irving - Harris - Rui - KD - Claxton. Given our gluttony of forwards and our need for a pg, we will have to consider making a move for Simmons and shipping out some of our forwards and whatever else they might want.

But I must say, the posters on this board who hate on Rui always strike me as funny. On the one hand, they write about how he's not good and then, on the other hand, they write that we should trade him. When you trade something that doesn't have value, guess what you get back? Something that doesn't have value.

As terrible as people on this board claim Rui is, as disastrous as people on this board claim it will be to extend him, and in spite of all the arguments that people on this board make claiming that Rui doesn't play winning basketball on a team like the Nets where he fits the needs of the team and compliments the superstars that are on the team, Hachimura would be a godsend.

The real question is it worth taking a flyer on Simmons. For me the answer is clearly yes. Porzingis can space the floor. And we need a big pg with Beal so that we can some kind of functional defense.

Simmons - Beal - Kispert - Avdija - Porzingis

Is a very solid lineup.

The real question is this, what would it take to get Simmons. I can't imagine much. And do we feel comfortable adding a piece like Simmons who has so many non-basketball problems going on...

I'm really dubious about Simmons. Unless inside basketball info is that he's absolutely fine to play & just holding out for the right trade. And, even then, how he's approached the whole thing would give me huge doubts.

But, giving it a shot, ok ... Deni - Beal - Kisper - KP - Simmons. Can Deni guard the fast PGs? Can Ben?

I'm just casting ideas about here. How different are Ben and Deni? Obv Deni is less scared to shoot from outside and Ben dunks with more ease (when he doesn't turn down the opportunity). But how does the rest of it play out?

[nate33]

But, giving it a shot, ok ... Deni - Beal - Kisper - KP - Simmons. Can Deni guard the fast PGs? Can Ben?

Ben could in the past, but bigger guys can typically only do so while they're very young. I don't expect a 26-year-old Simmons to stay in front of PG's as well as a 23 year old Simmons could. The solution here is to draft Dyson Daniels:

Daniels, Beal, Avdija, Simmons, Porzingis would be a sick team defensively. Kispert can come in for any one of those guys if we wanted to trade a little defense for more spacing. You could also keep a guy like Sato for bench depth.

But all of this assumes Simmons is over his mental and physical health issues and he is still a good player. The way I see it, if he is still good, he won't be available because Brooklyn won't trade him. Either that or Simmons is trying to get himself traded to LA and will sulk his way out of any other team.

[I_Like_Dirt]

But, giving it a shot, ok ... Deni - Beal - Kisper - KP - Simmons. Can Deni guard the fast PGs? Can Ben?

Ben could in the past, but bigger guys can typically only do so while they're very young. I don't expect a 26-year-old Simmons to stay in front of PG's as well as a 23 year old Simmons could. The solution here is to draft Dyson Daniels:

Daniels, Beal, Avdija, Simmons, Porzingis would be a sick team defensively. Kispert can come in for any one of those guys if we wanted to trade a little defense for more spacing. You could also keep a guy like Sato for bench depth.

But all of this assumes Simmons is over his mental and physical health issues and he is still a good player. The way I see it, if he is still good, he won't be available because Brooklyn won't trade him. Either that or Simmons is trying to get himself traded to LA and will sulk his way out of any other team.

I think Simmons defending PGs is fine. A lot of bigger wings can defend smaller guards pretty damn well, even as they age. In Simmons' case, his footwork, strength, positioning and long arms are his biggest advantages and those aren't going anywhere. While he hasn't added new dimensions to his game, he's kept himself in reasoble shape.

The bigger issue with Simmons is whether or not he actually has any interest in playing high end basketball. The amount of effort it takes to push yourself to be the best in the world is significant and when guys are faced with taking their millions and calling it a good life or driving their health into the dust in their 30s, I'm surprised more players don't call it quits sooner.

[B8RcDeMktfxC]

But, giving it a shot, ok ... Deni - Beal - Kisper - KP - Simmons. Can Deni guard the fast PGs? Can Ben?

Ben could in the past, but bigger guys can typically only do so while they're very young. I don't expect a 26-year-old Simmons to stay in front of PG's as well as a 23 year old Simmons could. The solution here is to draft Dyson Daniels:

Daniels, Beal, Avdija, Simmons, Porzingis would be a sick team defensively. Kispert can come in for any one of those guys if we wanted to trade a little defense for more spacing. You could also keep a guy like Sato for bench depth.

But all of this assumes Simmons is over his mental and physical health issues and he is still a good player. The way I see it, if he is still good, he won't be available because Brooklyn won't trade him. Either that or Simmons is trying to get himself traded to LA and will sulk his way out of any other team.

I think Simmons defending PGs is fine. A lot of bigger wings can defend smaller guards pretty damn well, even as they age. In Simmons' case, his footwork, strength, positioning and long arms are his biggest advantages and those aren't going anywhere. While he hasn't added new dimensions to his game, he's kept himself in reasoble shape.

The bigger issue with Simmons is whether or not he actually has any interest in playing high end basketball. The amount of effort it takes to push yourself to be the best in the world is significant and when guys are faced with taking their millions and calling it a good life or driving their health into the dust in their 30s, I'm surprised more players don't call it quits sooner.

Both this and nate33's post quoted seem pretty reasonable. I'm still a little unsure. Maybe KP suggests the Wizards recruit Ntilikina.

[doclinkin]

The real question is this, what would it take to get Simmons.

Hypnotherapy, and perhaps a motivational guru like Anthony Robbins.

[payitforward]

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Unsurprisingly, this is precisely what I argued....

What is?
That Billy Reinhardt (whoever he is) would tweet that he was thinking Rui would be a "somewhat realistic target" to trade for?

Or that, among the realistic targets (I suppose that "not overly expensive" might be one aspect of "realistic?") Rui is the favorite of Billy Reinhardt (whoever he is)?

...All the talk about plus/minus, his defense, whether or not he's a good player is irrelevant....

Wait. It's irrelevant whether he's a good player?

...Because he gives them precisely what they need....

(This is starting to get funny) -- for which your evidence is that Billy Reinhardt (whoever he is) lists him as his "favorite somewhat realistic" guy to trade for?

Plus, if Billy Reinhardt (whoever he is) lists him as "favorite somewhat realistic" that's proof of what...? Of the following?

...They had Patty Mills, Goran Dragin and Bruce Brown guarding Tatum. If they add Rui to the mix and Joe Harris comes back now they have a lineup of Irving - Harris - Rui - KD - Claxton....

Let me see if I understand this. They had 3 guys doing this important thing. If a 4th guy comes back, & they add another guy (Rui) that means they'll have 5. Is that your claim? That 3+1+1=5? I can't see how anyone could argue with it, prime. 3+1+1 does equal 5.

...Given our gluttony of forwards and our need for a pg, we will have to consider making a move for Simmons and shipping out some of our forwards and whatever else they might want....

When the game starts, we do have to put 5 players on the floor. No question about it! From that to being forced to consider a move to acquire Ben Simmons is kind of a big jump, tho, wouldn't you say? What do you think Billy Reinhardt (whoever he is) would say?

...But I must say, the posters on this board who hate on Rui ...

Yeah... it does seem like you really "must say...," given that in your mind anyone who doesn't think highly of Rui Hachimura's play is somehow hating on Rui -- which would certainly be wrong, given that he seems a really nice kid. Not to mention that, having started late, maybe he'll be a late bloomer. It's a great sign that he was able skyrocket his 3-point % -- maybe he can do the same in the areas where he's deficient.

...write about how he's not good and then, on the other hand, they write that we should trade him. When you trade something that doesn't have value, guess what you get back? Something that doesn't have value....

Interesting. What do you think we would be able to get back if we offered Rui. You are the one who knows how incredibly good he is, just how much value he has! You're the one who brought the shocking news that someone as knowledgeable as Billy Reinhardt (whoever he is) thinks it'd be possible to trade for Rui, so feel free to opine:

What would you ask for, what would you expect to get, in return for Rui Hachimura? A lot, I guess, given that...

...on a team like the Nets... Hachimura would be a godsend....

Great. For "a godsend," you gotta get a lot, right? Do you think they'd give us Ben Simmons straight up? Is that your idea? Or, given he's a godsend, & Ben is unquestionably damaged goods, maybe they'd throw in the #23 pick in the upcoming draft, which they have from Philly?

What do you think? -- &, maybe even more important, what do you think Billy Reinhardt (whoever he is) would say to this idea? How much would he give?

[dobrojim]

now we know, or can know if we so choose. For the time being, I'm not going to bother.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/william-billy-reinhardt-b0b5a3117/

[payitforward]

Oh this is funny -- he's a first-year law student at Hofstra.

A fan IOW.

[Shoe]

Oh this is funny -- he's a first-year law student at Hofstra.

A fan IOW.

That doesn't stop you from citing Kevin Broom. In fact this dude writes for Nets Daily - the SBnation bullets forever counterpart.

[payitforward]

Oh this is funny -- he's a first-year law student at Hofstra.

A fan IOW.

That doesn't stop you from citing Kevin Broom. In fact this dude writes for Nets Daily - the SBnation bullets forever counterpart.

You are completely correct, Shoe: being young doesn't prevent him or anyone from having a good idea. Neither does being a fan.

Good for him -- plus, I don't even think his idea is bad from a Nets POV. They could use to get younger. If you think it's interesting for us as well, then it could be discussed in the trade thread.

As to Kevin Broom, the reason he comes up on this Board is that he was an active, valued participant here for several years. He's missed. I joined towards the end of his run here; it's really doc who has Kevin in mind a lot of the time.

[doclinkin]

As to Kevin Broom, the reason he comes up on this Board is that he was an active, valued participant here for several years. He's missed. I joined towards the end of his run here; it's really doc who has Kevin in mind a lot of the time.

?? I've never once cited PPA. Kevin is smart and has contacts among scouts and within league front offices. AND in the professional basketball stat analysis community. He writes good fiction and I like the guy. My only comment on YODA or possibly PPA is that there were good questions raised on this board that contributed to his formula. Including age and relative height/relevant anthropometrics. I've never analyzed his or any other system to decide which is most effective, because in general I prefer my own knee-jerk reactions

[doclinkin]

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Unsurprisingly, this is precisely what I argued. All the talk about plus/minus, his defense, whether or not he's a good player is irrelevant. Because he gives them precisely what they need. A functional wing defender who can shoot the 3.

Here's my feeling on Rui/Simmons. We would be trading one emotionally fragile player for another EXCEPT that this front office and organization did a really good job of working with Rui and ensuring he would be safe and protected from intrusive questions and microanalysis of his personality and public scorn. So what could have been a career ruining rough patch instead might turn into a strength for a young guy who has his loyalty and commitment to the team reinforced by their closing ranks to protect him as a family member. This is one of those "double-bottom line" areas where I am proud of our team and the values of the front office, even where I see at some points it is irrelevant to the sociopathic nature of a competitive business where little matters beyond wins.

I have no doubt the organization would treat Simmons well too, and it could be a selling point for him choosing the team at any point in the future where he can exercise that choice. And for sure the pressure to win win win at all costs would be lower here in Washington than in front of Philly fans who can get bloody knuckles over the choice of condiments on a hot dog.

[JWizmentality]

Sorry, but we have no idea why Rui was out. I take issue with your "emotionally fragile" diagnosis. We have no idea if it was mental, family related, whatever. If Rui has a bad game I'm not worried about him taking off because of mental blocks. Simmons and Rui aren't remotely similar.

Rui has singularly been the most dissected rookie on these boards I've ever witnessed, mostly negative. I'm not going to speculate on the why, but that seems to have given people free range to throw around labels like emotionally fragile without knowing what the young man is experiencing. And then act like mental health champions behind a keyboard.

[payitforward]

As to Kevin Broom, the reason he comes up on this Board is that he was an active, valued participant here for several years. He's missed. I joined towards the end of his run here; it's really doc who has Kevin in mind a lot of the time.

?? I've never once cited PPA. Kevin is smart and has contacts among scouts and within league front offices. AND in the professional basketball stat analysis community. He writes good fiction and I like the guy. My only comment on YODA or possibly PPA is that there were good questions raised on this board that contributed to his formula. Including age and relative height/relevant anthropometrics. I've never analyzed his or any other system to decide which is most effective, because in general I prefer my own knee-jerk reactions

I didn't mean to suggest that you swear by or even tend to rely on YODA or Kevin Broom. Only that you had a longer & doubtless more interesting period of interaction w/ him than I did, so he sits a little prominently in your head & memories than in mine.

As far as "knee jerk reactions," I always assume that like me you don't know what you think until you see what you've written. It's the "brain in fingertips" gift -- or as Alan used to say, "first thought best thought" (followed by "o, wow, so that was my first thought! Huh! how about that?").

[GoneShammGone]

I've seen a lot of people on the board suggesting that Rui could be used in a trade this summer, which is fine as far as it goes... the question is always: what can you get for him? And judging from some of the proposed deals, I think people are sleeping on the positive things he accomplished this season.

For background, for most of the past couple years I've been very pessimistic about Rui, and last summer I was worried that he was headed toward a "short career disappointment" type of player (a la Al Thornton or Yi Jianliang). I just never saw that he was able to do any particular thing well for a sustained period of time. It was all flashes, no consistency, and he was already a little older than others in his draft class.

But this last season has completely changed my view on him. I know its only half a season, but Rui didn't just show that we could do something "well"... he showed he could do something "fantastically well"! Of course, I'm talking about shooting the three... I think I posted this elsewhere, but look at the progression of his three point percentage:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hachiru01.html

He jumped from .328 to .447 while increasing his attempts by over 15%. He had the second best 3pt % in the entire league for guys with over 100 attempt. That isn't just good, that's great! On the strength of that three point shooting he managed to raise his TS% from .549 to .579, even while he shot poorly from the free throw line---meaning if he can get his FT% back to where it was his first two years, that TS% can go even higher. Sure he has to sustain his remarkable 3pt shooting, but unlike prior to last season, where all we had was speculation about what Rui *might* be able to do well, now we *actually seen* him do something at a very high level for 40 games. To me that is huge....

Now I realize that shooting efficiency is not all there is to a player, but among all the skills a player can demonstrate, its arguably the most important. And Rui's increased efficiency is even more impressive when you realize he's doing it on 20% usage (a career high), so its not some function of being a low-usage player who only takes open shots.

For a 4, I think we can agree that his rebounding kinda sucks. But check out this comparison of third years between Rui and Otto Porter Jr:

https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1=porteot01&p1yrfrom=2016&player_id2=hachiru01&p2yrfrom=2022

The offensive numbers are nearly identical---actually Rui looks a little bit better. This was 2016 for Otto, the first year he was really successful, and he was poised to break out over the next two seasons to be arguably the Wizards best player. He was a year younger than Rui in his third season, but the similarity is remarkable to me. So is it possible that is what we are looking at with Rui? He's getting ready to break out as a peak Otto Porter type of player?

Obviously the biggest difference between them is defense. Rui's defensive numbers (opponent's shooting %, steals, RAPTOR) improved his second year, but crashed back this last season to his rookie levels. Can he get better on that side of the ball? I don't know, but I do get the feeling that the tremendous improvement we saw from Rui has not been noticed or celebrated on this board all that much (maybe I've been missing it)? Because it was only half a season? Because people are worried about his state of mind and mental health?

Anyway, just wanted to point out some of the positives about his play this year and note that if we are considering moving a forward for help at guard, I'd much rather move Kuz. Between the two of them, I think we would be selling low on Rui and high on Kyle.

[DCZards]

But this last season has completely changed my view on him. I know its only half a season, but Rui didn't just show that we could do something "well"... he showed he could do something "fantastically well"! Of course, I'm talking about shooting the three... I think I posted this elsewhere, but look at the progression of his three point percentage:

He jumped from .328 to .447 while increasing his attempts by over 15%. He had the second best 3pt % in the entire league for guys with over 100 attempt. That isn't just good, that's great! On the strength of that three point shooting he managed to raise his TS% from .549 to .579, even while he shot poorly from the free throw line---meaning if he can get his FT% back to where it was his first two years, that TS% can go even higher. Sure he has to sustain his remarkable 3pt shooting, but unlike prior to last season, where all we had was speculation about what Rui *might* be able to do well, now we *actually seen* him do something at a very high level for 40 games. To me that is huge....

One night last week, I watched Maxi Kleber and Duncan Robinson help lead their teams to playoff wins primarily on their ability to spread the floor and knock down 3s.

So, yes, there’s a significant role in the modern NBA for someone like Rui who has become an outstanding 3pt shooter like …and is a younger and better all around player than both Kleber and Robinson.

[nate33]

One night last week, I watched Maxi Kleber and Duncan Robinson help lead their teams to playoff wins primarily on their ability to spread the floor and knock down 3s.

So, yes, there’s a significant role in the modern NBA for someone like Rui who has become an outstanding 3pt shooter like …and is a younger and better all around player than both Kleber and Robinson.

Duncan Robinson is playing 13 minutes a game in the playoffs and has been replaced by an undrafted walk-on (Max Strus). He has scored a grand total of 9 points in the last 4 playoff games. He's a perfect example of the problems you have in the playoffs if you are a one-dimensional offensive player who can't defend. While Rui has much more defensive potential than Robinson due to his superior physical gifts, he is actually quite a bit behind Robinson in understanding of team defense concepts.

Kleber is one of the best defensive PF's in the game. He helps Dallas way more on defense than he does with his shooting. Kleber is the guy I'm hoping and praying Rui can become, but unfortunately, Rui has not demonstrated any of Kleber's defensive awareness and effort.

[GoneShammGone]

...

Kleber is one of the best defensive PF's in the game. He helps Dallas way more on defense than he does with his shooting. Kleber is the guy I'm hoping and praying Rui can become, but unfortunately, Rui has not demonstrated any of Kleber's defensive awareness and effort.

I'm with you on the fact that Rui needs to get better on defense. Its disappointing that he regressed this year. But on the other hand, Rui doesn't need to be as outstanding at defense as Maxi Kleber to be a really useful player. If he can get to the point where he is solid on-ball and gives reasonable effort, I think he can stay on the court in the playoffs.... where his efficiency is a real weapon.

Anyway, I'm curious... how do you value him compared to Kuz? I posted mostly because I was seeing a trend of people suggesting Rui as a tradable piece instead of Kuzma. What's your take?

[DCZards]

Duncan Robinson is playing 13 minutes a game in the playoffs and has been replaced by an undrafted walk-on (Max Strus). He has scored a grand total of 9 points in the last 4 playoff games. He's a perfect example of the problems you have in the playoffs if you are a one-dimensional offensive player who can't defend. While Rui has much more defensive potential than Robinson due to his superior physical gifts, he is actually quite a bit behind Robinson in understanding of team defense concepts.

Yet Pat Riley and the Heat are paying the one-dimensional Robinson--whose offensive game is not nearly as diverse as Rui's--$18 mil a year. Makes you wanna to go hmmm.