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Rui Hachimura 2.0

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9 and 20
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Re: Rui Hachimura 2.0 

Post#81 » by 9 and 20 » Sun Jun 20, 2021 10:02 pm

payitforward wrote:
9 and 20 wrote:Rui 'Eye Test' Hachimura.

He's more aggressive now...

This is a pretty typical claim. Only... what makes you think so?

Maybe you mean something simple, like that he scored more points this year than last year. But he didn't. He scored slightly fewer points this year than he did last year.

Did he take more shots his 2d year than his first? Is that what you mean? Only... he didn't. He shot slightly less often his 2d year than his first year.

Did he get to the line more often his 2d year than his first year? No, he got to the line slightly less often this year than last.

Did he get more offensive rebounds this year? I can imagine thinking of that as a sign of being "more aggressive." Only... he didn't in fact, his offensive boards dropped substantially. His defensive boards dropped a bit as well, btw.

Do you perhaps mean that he saw the floor better, made better passes? Well... his assists went down @27%.

Conclusion: no Rui is not "more aggressive now." Not at all.

Moreover, overall all those numbers are both pretty bad & in sum, represent a meaningful drop, decline, getting worse, from his rookie year.

Are we clear on that? Fewer points, fewer defensive boards, fewer offensive boards, fewer assists -- &, in addition, a slight rise in turnovers, a slight drop in blocked shots, & a slight drop in fouls (finally! something got better!)

9 and 20 wrote:He's shooting the three more, and better. ...

Rui shot the 3 extremely rarely & very poorly as a rookie. This year, Rui shot the 3 a little more -- by which I mean that every 140 possessions, Rui took 1 more 3 point shot than he did last year. Wow, huh?

IOW, Rui still shoots 3-pointers pretty rarely. In fact, this year Rui shot a 3 pointer 41.5% as often as often as average for an NBA 4. Read that again.

Last year, his 3pt. % was 28.7%. This year he went up to 32.7% & there you have the big "improvement." The thing everyone wants to point to. Look how well Rui is doing! Only one little problem: on average an NBA 4 shoots his almost 2.5 times as many 3's at 36.8%.

9 and 20 wrote:Still might forever be a Jamison-level rebounder, but that's fine. If the three keeps improving and he is more consistent on the defensive end, then he's a pretty good forward. Not Giannis, but pretty good.....

& this is the kind of comment that no Wizards fan would ever have made about another draft pick in his 2d year. Because, forgive me, it makes absolutely no sense.

1. Jamison was a substantially better rebounder than Rui.
2. Doesn't the 3 have to actually get "good" -- not just improve, but actually get ABOVE AVERAGE IN % & NUMBER OF ATTEMPTS before we start pointing to it as a positive indicator?
3. & what does your conclusion mean? If he keeps getting better until he's a pretty good forward, why then he'll be a pretty good forward?

Thing is... he didn't get better this year. He got a bit worse.

See the facts above. Not hand-waving but actual facts. Rui posted a slight increase in his TS% from awful to less awful but still meaningfully below the average of ALL NBA 4s (not just guys drafted in the lottery or drafted in the top 10 but below the average of every single guy who played a minute at PF this year.

9 and 20 wrote:Kyle Kuzma seems a decent comparison....

Wow.... If Kuzma is the comparison, then Rui isn't going to be "a pretty forward," because Kyle Kuzma is not "a pretty good forward." He's a bad forward.

Rui wasn't taken #27 in the draft, like Kuzma. He was taken #9. If Kuzma is the comparison, Rui Hachimura will be a bust for a #9 pick. Fortunately, however, Rui wasn't as bad a rookie as Kuzma was. & he wasn't as bad a 2d year player as Kuzma was. Let's hope he isn't as bad as Kuzma was his 3d year.

OTOH, though this doesn't really matter long term, Rui wasn't as good as Kuzma this year either. & Kuzma wasn't even average.


I meant pretty much what I said - he's shooting more, and better. Shooting more = more aggressive. Your original question was 'why do people say Hachimura is better?'. Your question was not, 'Is Hachimura as good at shooting 3's as an average NBA 4?' Clearly he can improve. I read earlier that you wondered why you were considered a 'hater.' This is why. You asked why people thought he was improved, and when I offered up improvement, your response was more or less, well yes, but that's not good enough. Rui showed some promise and improvement as a scorer and as a defender. It shouldn't be this hard to acknowledge it.

Also, I'm pretty certain Rui will be at least as good as the average #9 pick overall. Feel free to explore the history of #9 picks to compare his performance. For reference, recent #9 picks before Ruis include Deni, Kevin Knox, Dennis Smith Jr., Jacob Poetl, and Frank Kominsky. That is just the last drafts around the Rui draft. There are probably some all stars mixed in further back, but on average, you're not getting Lebron James at 9.
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Re: Rui Hachimura 2.0 

Post#82 » by prime1time » Sun Jun 20, 2021 10:21 pm

9 and 20 wrote:
payitforward wrote:
9 and 20 wrote:Rui 'Eye Test' Hachimura.

He's more aggressive now...

This is a pretty typical claim. Only... what makes you think so?

Maybe you mean something simple, like that he scored more points this year than last year. But he didn't. He scored slightly fewer points this year than he did last year.

Did he take more shots his 2d year than his first? Is that what you mean? Only... he didn't. He shot slightly less often his 2d year than his first year.

Did he get to the line more often his 2d year than his first year? No, he got to the line slightly less often this year than last.

Did he get more offensive rebounds this year? I can imagine thinking of that as a sign of being "more aggressive." Only... he didn't in fact, his offensive boards dropped substantially. His defensive boards dropped a bit as well, btw.

Do you perhaps mean that he saw the floor better, made better passes? Well... his assists went down @27%.

Conclusion: no Rui is not "more aggressive now." Not at all.

Moreover, overall all those numbers are both pretty bad & in sum, represent a meaningful drop, decline, getting worse, from his rookie year.

Are we clear on that? Fewer points, fewer defensive boards, fewer offensive boards, fewer assists -- &, in addition, a slight rise in turnovers, a slight drop in blocked shots, & a slight drop in fouls (finally! something got better!)

9 and 20 wrote:He's shooting the three more, and better. ...

Rui shot the 3 extremely rarely & very poorly as a rookie. This year, Rui shot the 3 a little more -- by which I mean that every 140 possessions, Rui took 1 more 3 point shot than he did last year. Wow, huh?

IOW, Rui still shoots 3-pointers pretty rarely. In fact, this year Rui shot a 3 pointer 41.5% as often as often as average for an NBA 4. Read that again.

Last year, his 3pt. % was 28.7%. This year he went up to 32.7% & there you have the big "improvement." The thing everyone wants to point to. Look how well Rui is doing! Only one little problem: on average an NBA 4 shoots his almost 2.5 times as many 3's at 36.8%.

9 and 20 wrote:Still might forever be a Jamison-level rebounder, but that's fine. If the three keeps improving and he is more consistent on the defensive end, then he's a pretty good forward. Not Giannis, but pretty good.....

& this is the kind of comment that no Wizards fan would ever have made about another draft pick in his 2d year. Because, forgive me, it makes absolutely no sense.

1. Jamison was a substantially better rebounder than Rui.
2. Doesn't the 3 have to actually get "good" -- not just improve, but actually get ABOVE AVERAGE IN % & NUMBER OF ATTEMPTS before we start pointing to it as a positive indicator?
3. & what does your conclusion mean? If he keeps getting better until he's a pretty good forward, why then he'll be a pretty good forward?

Thing is... he didn't get better this year. He got a bit worse.

See the facts above. Not hand-waving but actual facts. Rui posted a slight increase in his TS% from awful to less awful but still meaningfully below the average of ALL NBA 4s (not just guys drafted in the lottery or drafted in the top 10 but below the average of every single guy who played a minute at PF this year.

9 and 20 wrote:Kyle Kuzma seems a decent comparison....

Wow.... If Kuzma is the comparison, then Rui isn't going to be "a pretty forward," because Kyle Kuzma is not "a pretty good forward." He's a bad forward.

Rui wasn't taken #27 in the draft, like Kuzma. He was taken #9. If Kuzma is the comparison, Rui Hachimura will be a bust for a #9 pick. Fortunately, however, Rui wasn't as bad a rookie as Kuzma was. & he wasn't as bad a 2d year player as Kuzma was. Let's hope he isn't as bad as Kuzma was his 3d year.

OTOH, though this doesn't really matter long term, Rui wasn't as good as Kuzma this year either. & Kuzma wasn't even average.


I meant pretty much what I said - he's shooting more, and better. Shooting more = more aggressive. Your original question was 'why do people say Hachimura is better?'. Your question was not, 'Is Hachimura as good at shooting 3's as an average NBA 4?' Clearly he can improve. I read earlier that you wondered why you were considered a 'hater.' This is why. You asked why people thought he was improved, and when I offered up improvement, your response was more or less, well yes, but that's not good enough. Rui showed some promise and improvement as a scorer and as a defender. It shouldn't be this hard to acknowledge it.

Also, I'm pretty certain Rui will be at least as good as the average #9 pick overall. Feel free to explore the history of #9 picks to compare his performance. For reference, recent #9 picks before Ruis include Deni, Kevin Knox, Dennis Smith Jr., Jacob Poetl, and Frank Kominsky. That is just the last drafts around the Rui draft. There are probably some all stars mixed in further back, but on average, you're not getting Lebron James at 9.

He already knows what he believes. That's why any debate about Rui with him is really moot. He's not looking to understand he's looking to argue. Rui shot 39.5% from 3, 61.5% from the field and put up almost 15 ppg in the playoffs. Why shouldn't we be excited about his future prospects? In the playoffs Kuzma shot 23.5% from the field, 10.8% from 3. Last year Kuzma shot 43% from the field and 31% from 3. So who really is better than who? And Kuzma is 25 turning 26 in a month and Rui is 23. Also, how silly is it to compare Rui to the average 4? What does that even mean? The guy is in his 2nd year in the league. Why should we compare him to people in their primes? Compare Rui to other people in his draft class. He's clearly in a good place. Does he need to improve? Yes. But it's tiring reading posts trying to trash him. Newsflash, players take time to develop.
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Re: Rui Hachimura 2.0 

Post#83 » by payitforward » Sun Jun 20, 2021 11:15 pm

dckingsfan wrote:
nate33 wrote:That's one of the reasons that his on/off improved from -6.1 to -1.8.

That is the best argument thus far. And if you look at his splits it looks even better (pre -6.0 and post all-star break -0.3)....

It's no argument at all! The team was up almost 150 points on the league over its last 20 games!
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Re: Rui Hachimura 2.0 

Post#84 » by payitforward » Sun Jun 20, 2021 11:32 pm

9 and 20 wrote:
payitforward wrote:This is a pretty typical claim. Only... what makes you think so?

Maybe you mean something simple, like that he scored more points this year than last year. But he didn't. He scored slightly fewer points this year than he did last year.

Did he take more shots his 2d year than his first? Is that what you mean? Only... he didn't. He shot slightly less often his 2d year than his first year.

Did he get to the line more often his 2d year than his first year? No, he got to the line slightly less often this year than last.

Did he get more offensive rebounds this year? I can imagine thinking of that as a sign of being "more aggressive." Only... he didn't in fact, his offensive boards dropped substantially. His defensive boards dropped a bit as well, btw.

Do you perhaps mean that he saw the floor better, made better passes? Well... his assists went down @27%.

Conclusion: no Rui is not "more aggressive now." Not at all.

Moreover, overall all those numbers are both pretty bad & in sum, represent a meaningful drop, decline, getting worse, from his rookie year.

Are we clear on that? Fewer points, fewer defensive boards, fewer offensive boards, fewer assists -- &, in addition, a slight rise in turnovers, a slight drop in blocked shots, & a slight drop in fouls (finally! something got better!)


Rui shot the 3 extremely rarely & very poorly as a rookie. This year, Rui shot the 3 a little more -- by which I mean that every 140 possessions, Rui took 1 more 3 point shot than he did last year. Wow, huh?

IOW, Rui still shoots 3-pointers pretty rarely. In fact, this year Rui shot a 3 pointer 41.5% as often as often as average for an NBA 4. Read that again.

Last year, his 3pt. % was 28.7%. This year he went up to 32.7% & there you have the big "improvement." The thing everyone wants to point to. Look how well Rui is doing! Only one little problem: on average an NBA 4 shoots his almost 2.5 times as many 3's at 36.8%.


& this is the kind of comment that no Wizards fan would ever have made about another draft pick in his 2d year. Because, forgive me, it makes absolutely no sense.

1. Jamison was a substantially better rebounder than Rui.
2. Doesn't the 3 have to actually get "good" -- not just improve, but actually get ABOVE AVERAGE IN % & NUMBER OF ATTEMPTS before we start pointing to it as a positive indicator?
3. & what does your conclusion mean? If he keeps getting better until he's a pretty good forward, why then he'll be a pretty good forward?

Thing is... he didn't get better this year. He got a bit worse.

See the facts above. Not hand-waving but actual facts. Rui posted a slight increase in his TS% from awful to less awful but still meaningfully below the average of ALL NBA 4s (not just guys drafted in the lottery or drafted in the top 10 but below the average of every single guy who played a minute at PF this year.


Wow.... If Kuzma is the comparison, then Rui isn't going to be "a pretty forward," because Kyle Kuzma is not "a pretty good forward." He's a bad forward.

Rui wasn't taken #27 in the draft, like Kuzma. He was taken #9. If Kuzma is the comparison, Rui Hachimura will be a bust for a #9 pick. Fortunately, however, Rui wasn't as bad a rookie as Kuzma was. & he wasn't as bad a 2d year player as Kuzma was. Let's hope he isn't as bad as Kuzma was his 3d year.

OTOH, though this doesn't really matter long term, Rui wasn't as good as Kuzma this year either. & Kuzma wasn't even average.


I meant pretty much what I said - he's shooting more, and better. Shooting more = more aggressive. Your original question was 'why do people say Hachimura is better?'. Your question was not, 'Is Hachimura as good at shooting 3's as an average NBA 4?' Clearly he can improve. I read earlier that you wondered why you were considered a 'hater.' This is why. You asked why people thought he was improved, and when I offered up improvement, your response was more or less, well yes, but that's not good enough. Rui showed some promise and improvement as a scorer and as a defender. It shouldn't be this hard to acknowledge it....

Only here's the problem. As a rookie, Rui took 13.6 shots per 36 minutes -- along with 3.5 FTAs. As a rookie, Rui took 13 shots per 36 minutes -- along with 3.2 FTAs.

Are you suggesting that only a hater would fail to see his increased aggressiveness? Or fail to understand that Shooting less = shooting more? Is that it?

I've acknowledged Rui's improvements where they exist & pointed out his lack of improvement where that's what there is to point out.

prime1time wrote:He already knows what he believes. That's why any debate about Rui with him is really moot. He's not looking to understand he's looking to argue. Rui shot 39.5% from 3, 61.5% from the field and put up almost 15 ppg in the playoffs....

This really does get tiresome. Do I write insulting things about you, prime?

I don't "believe" a single thing about Rui. I just observe what he does on the court. Period. I've called out his good games a zillion times. Moreover, he is *clearly* a great kid! I'd love him to succeed.

prime1time wrote:...In the playoffs Kuzma shot 23.5% from the field, 10.8% from 3. Last year Kuzma shot 43% from the field and 31% from 3. So who really is better than who? And Kuzma is 25 turning 26 in a month and Rui is 23.

Sorry, but it was 9 and 20, not me, who suggested Kuzma as a good model for Rui's potential. I was the one who said I thought that was a low estimate for Rui.

prime1time wrote:...Also, how silly is it to compare Rui to the average 4? What does that even mean? The guy is in his 2nd year in the league. Why should we compare him to people in their primes? Compare Rui to other people in his draft class. He's clearly in a good place. Does he need to improve? Yes. But it's tiring reading posts trying to trash him. Newsflash, players take time to develop.

I have compared Rui's numbers to the average -- that's how you figure out whether a player is putting up numbers that are either below average or above average. You see how they compare to "average." It's not a conspiracy against Rui
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Re: Rui Hachimura 2.0 

Post#85 » by dckingsfan » Sun Jun 20, 2021 11:45 pm

payitforward wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:
nate33 wrote:That's one of the reasons that his on/off improved from -6.1 to -1.8.

That is the best argument thus far. And if you look at his splits it looks even better (pre -6.0 and post all-star break -0.3)....

It's no argument at all! The team was up almost 150 points on the league over its last 20 games!

Powered by Rui!
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Re: Rui Hachimura 2.0 

Post#86 » by payitforward » Sun Jun 20, 2021 11:47 pm

DCZards wrote:Still need to see substantial improvement from Rui. Maybe it comes in his third season.

I doubt that he'll improve a whole lot as a rebounder, but if Rui can get that 6.1 per game up to around 7 per game I'd be alright with that.

The place that we'd all probably like to see the most improvement from Rui is as a 3pt shooter. That would be a tremendous boost to his game and to the Zards. Rui has a ways to go as a 3pt shooter...but at least he's trending in the right direction.

It's good to see that Hachimura has improved his 2 pt shooting (as reflected in Nate's post) and he has clearly become a better on ball defender. I'll settle for those improvements for now...and hope for more in the future.

Yes, this makes good sense. & nate's analysis indicates that his jump in 2-point FG% from .500 to .519 is a sign of more improvement than you might think at first -- because the improvement came on a less advantageous set of shots.

On the rest of everything, i.e. outside of scoring, Rui was either pretty much the same as last year or declined. Rui still has a couple of years to get it together & hit his peak years as a player who is actually "good" -- i.e. by objective measures.

If the 7 play-in/play-off games are an indication, Rui's shooting should take a sizable jump next season: he posted a .746 TS% over that stretch.
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Re: Rui Hachimura 2.0 

Post#87 » by smoothSeph » Tue Jun 29, 2021 11:46 pm

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Looking forward to seeing Rui run the show for Japan after a couple years of NBA experience. I remember 2019 he looked like a completely different player in FIBA play.
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Re: Rui Hachimura 2.0 

Post#88 » by doclinkin » Wed Jun 30, 2021 1:26 pm

I wonder if in Japan Rui will be the Brodie Westbrook of that team. Vocal leader, high energy effort. He seems to be more assertive on that squad than here.
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Re: Rui Hachimura 2.0 

Post#89 » by BigA » Thu Jul 15, 2021 12:54 pm

Rui's new NIssin cup noodle ad
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Re: Rui Hachimura 2.0 

Post#90 » by payitforward » Thu Jul 15, 2021 1:13 pm

I think they made that using only 3-4 head shots of Rui...
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Re: Rui Hachimura 2.0 

Post#91 » by Frichuela » Sun Jul 18, 2021 2:37 pm

Japan upset France in a friendly. Rui with a clutch offensive rebound at the end. Interestingly, the highlights video shows both makes and misses.

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Re: Rui Hachimura 2.0 

Post#92 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:26 am

Rui is a MotherFer, and I mean this in a good way…

:)

He gets up when he goes against people like Giannis Antetokounmpo and Luka Doncic.

I am an Aquarius and so is he. One thing we like is bringing bullies down. He’s super passive for the most part but he does have some beast in him. This Olympics is eye-opening.
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Re: Rui Hachimura 2.0 

Post#93 » by gambitx777 » Thu Jul 29, 2021 7:49 am

So Rui is a beast
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Re: Rui Hachimura 2.0 

Post#94 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Thu Jul 29, 2021 9:57 am

gambitx777 wrote:So Rui is a beast
Yeah but I would hate to admit I'm wrong

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Re: Rui Hachimura 2.0 

Post#95 » by prime1time » Thu Jul 29, 2021 3:17 pm

I stayed up late to watch the game. In a sense, it was the same Rui we've always known but in another sense he was kind of unleashed. I do wonder if Brooks didn't use him properly. Don't think this is every bucket but it's a good start. Rui seems to be way more confident in his 3-point shot. I think the international line is slightly closer in, but the point remains. So far in the tournament, he has attempted 17 3's in 2 games and he has made 7 (41%). He also takes a considerable amount of mid-range jumpers, but what is clear is that Rui's at his best when attacking the rim. He can use his strength, length, and athleticism to get to the hoop and finish through contact. It will be very interesting to see how Rui plays next season. Going back to the playoffs where he was 9/15, Rui has been absolutely sizzling from the 3-point line as of late.
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Re: Rui Hachimura 2.0 

Post#96 » by Ed Wood » Thu Jul 29, 2021 3:52 pm

No reason not to hope for the best from Rui going forward, and a strong showing in the Olympics is much better news than a poor one would have been, but considering that he (1) was a markedly better three point shooter in college than he has been in the pros at least in the one instance where he was a good three point shooter in college (2) he's always had a fairly flat shot and (3) he's a pretty prolific shooter of long twos there's more reason than there'd normally be to be skeptical of apparent sharp shooting in international competition.
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Re: Rui Hachimura 2.0 

Post#97 » by FAH1223 » Thu Jul 29, 2021 4:25 pm

The Rui alley oop pass to Yuta was nice

I’d like to see more play making and rebounding.
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Re: Rui Hachimura 2.0 

Post#98 » by closg00 » Thu Jul 29, 2021 5:07 pm

Dunno if it's because it's an edited highlight reel, but he looks loose and more confident in the same way that Jan played more confidently when playing overseas.
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Re: Rui Hachimura 2.0 

Post#99 » by JAR69 » Thu Jul 29, 2021 5:25 pm

FAH1223 wrote:The Rui alley oop pass to Yuta was nice

I’d like to see more play making and rebounding.


I've been meaning to post this in the offseason thread, but I think Yuta would be a good pickup (we'd need to trade with Toronto). Backup 3 & D type. I don't know if he and Rui are friends, but it couldn't hurt to have another Japanese speaker on the team.
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Re: Rui Hachimura 2.0 

Post#100 » by smoothSeph » Thu Jul 29, 2021 5:41 pm

closg00 wrote:Dunno if it's because it's an edited highlight reel, but he looks loose and more confident in the same way that Jan played more confidently when playing overseas.

I stayed up to watch the game, he was like this throughout. He finished with 28 shots in 37 minutes.

He could take a couple less midrange fadeaways, but he's clearly confident in hitting that shot vs anyone. We saw it against Giannis, KD, and last night he was going at Luka without hesitation.

Confidence is the biggest thing to see with him at this point. I hope he shoots 30 times in their next game vs Argentina.

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