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East 1st Round - Game #5: Bullets @ 76ers 7 PM (NBA TV/NBCSW/1500 AM)

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WILL A DOC RIVERS TEAM LOSE ANOTHER GAME UP 3-1?

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Re: East 1st Round - Game #5: Bullets @ 76ers 7 PM (NBA TV/NBCSW/1500 AM) 

Post#221 » by NatP4 » Thu Jun 3, 2021 7:34 pm

Runner300 wrote:From my perspective (European basketball), changing the game style would have a vast and immediate
effect on Wizards' game record, allowing them to rank higher, therefore facing an "easier" team in the playoffs,
advance further and closer to the championship goal.
That compared to rebuilding and "tanking" - a new term to me that I'm still trying to process.

Concentrate on teamwork, Wizards already have all the talent they need to make the playoffs every year.


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Re: East 1st Round - Game #5: Bullets @ 76ers 7 PM (NBA TV/NBCSW/1500 AM) 

Post#222 » by Ruzious » Thu Jun 3, 2021 7:35 pm

nate33 wrote:
payitforward wrote:
prime1time wrote:Thoughts like this are just ridiculous. I'm embarrassed just reading this. How long have you been a fan of the Wizards?

Agreed. Ridiculous & embarrassing.

I actually thought Beal was quite good in the playoffs given the circumstances. He averaged 30 points per game on a TS% of .540 while being constantly double-teamed by the best defense in the league. Among his teammates who could actually create a shot on their own, they shot the following TS%:

Westbroook .462
Neto .442
Ish .395

All Philly did was double off of those guys while packing the paint to prevent easy FGA's from Gafford, Lopez and Hachimura. The only hope was Bertans having a good game to help Beal out. Bertans had two awful games and missed a game. Of the two good games he had, we won one, and the other was a close loss. The Wizards shot at TS% of .543 as a team, so it's not like Beal's relatively low TS% was bringing the team down.

I've got nothing bad to say about Beal's production. The dude showed up and did all he could. The fact is, he's not Lebron or KD. It's asking a heck of a lot for a 6-4 shooting guard to be the only guy to carry an offense.

Not to mention, Beal was covered a good portion of the time by Thybulle - who's a tremendous defender. He wasn't perfect by any stretch and made some poor decisions dribbling into double teams, but he did fine offensively. I did have issues with his defensive effort, but then again - he had a heavy burden on the offensive end that undoubtedly took a lot of effort. He was in almost a no-win situation and shouldn't be considered the problem. He wanted to win as much as anyone.
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Re: East 1st Round - Game #5: Bullets @ 76ers 7 PM (NBA TV/NBCSW/1500 AM) 

Post#223 » by DCZards » Thu Jun 3, 2021 7:57 pm

Yeah...being guarded and hounded by great defenders like Thybulle, Simmons and Green, and facing double- and triple-teams, had to be tough on Beal both physically and psychologically.

Agree tho that BB tried to force it too often by attempting to dribble through those double-teams instead of passing the ball, which led to several TOs and easy hoops for the Sixers.
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Re: East 1st Round - Game #5: Bullets @ 76ers 7 PM (NBA TV/NBCSW/1500 AM) 

Post#224 » by payitforward » Fri Jun 4, 2021 1:21 am

I'm with Zards, Ruz & nate.

Listen, we weren't in this series. Period. We had a slight chance to win Game 1; when we didn't the series was basically over. The fact that we won the 4th game shouldn't make anyone imagine any other outcome was possible.

We aren't remotely as good a team as Philadelphia. Or Brooklyn. Or Milwaukee, Atlanta, the Knicks, or the Heat. All those teams dispatch us with ease. & when it came to a single important game against the Celtics, they walked over us.

We're better than Indy with injuries. & we're better than Charlotte, the Bulls, etcetera. We had a fantastic close to the season. It was great.

But, we relied on heavy minutes from guys who just are not good players -- either aren't yet good or are low-productivity vets. We couldn't have asked more of Lopez, Len, Neto, Ish, Gill & Mathews.

& we have a bunch of big & little question marks: Bertans, Bonga, Rui, Deni, Hutchison -- & Bryant coming back from injury.

That leaves Russ, Brad & Gafford. Giving Beal a hard time doesn't make much sense.
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Re: East 1st Round - Game #5: Bullets @ 76ers 7 PM (NBA TV/NBCSW/1500 AM) 

Post#225 » by Ruzious » Fri Jun 4, 2021 11:20 am

payitforward wrote:I'm with Zards, Ruz & nate.

Listen, we weren't in this series. Period. We had a slight chance to win Game 1; when we didn't the series was basically over. The fact that we won the 4th game shouldn't make anyone imagine any other outcome was possible.

We aren't remotely as good a team as Philadelphia. Or Brooklyn. Or Milwaukee, Atlanta, the Knicks, or the Heat. All those teams dispatch us with ease. & when it came to a single important game against the Celtics, they walked over us.

We're better than Indy with injuries. & we're better than Charlotte, the Bulls, etcetera. We had a fantastic close to the season. It was great.

But, we relied on heavy minutes from guys who just are not good players -- either aren't yet good or are low-productivity vets. We couldn't have asked more of Lopez, Len, Neto, Ish, Gill & Mathews.

& we have a bunch of big & little question marks: Bertans, Bonga, Rui, Deni, Hutchison -- & Bryant coming back from injury.

That leaves Russ, Brad & Gafford. Giving Beal a hard time doesn't make much sense.

I think you're overrating the Knicks and the Heat - who both looked an awful lot like the Wiz in the playoffs. The Heat's 2 best players rarely even consider shooting outside of 10 feet - which makes them very easy to defend - Butler shot under 30%. Milwaukee packed their defense in - daring them to shoot. Dragic fell off badly, and he's 35. Herro was a big disappointment this season - I probably overrated him. And Robinson is essentially their Bertans - just more consistent. The difference between the Knicks and the Wiz is coaching - the talent level is about the same, imo.
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Re: East 1st Round - Game #5: Bullets @ 76ers 7 PM (NBA TV/NBCSW/1500 AM) 

Post#226 » by CntOutSmrtCrazy » Fri Jun 4, 2021 4:35 pm

nate33 wrote:
payitforward wrote:
prime1time wrote:Thoughts like this are just ridiculous. I'm embarrassed just reading this. How long have you been a fan of the Wizards?

Agreed. Ridiculous & embarrassing.

I actually thought Beal was quite good in the playoffs given the circumstances. He averaged 30 points per game on a TS% of .540 while being constantly double-teamed by the best defense in the league. Among his teammates who could actually create a shot on their own, they shot the following TS%:

Westbroook .462
Neto .442
Ish .395

All Philly did was double off of those guys while packing the paint to prevent easy FGA's from Gafford, Lopez and Hachimura. The only hope was Bertans having a good game to help Beal out. Bertans had two awful games and missed a game. Of the two good games he had, we won one, and the other was a close loss. The Wizards shot at TS% of .543 as a team, so it's not like Beal's relatively low TS% was bringing the team down.

I've got nothing bad to say about Beal's production. The dude showed up and did all he could. The fact is, he's not Lebron or KD. It's asking a heck of a lot for a 6-4 shooting guard to be the only guy to carry an offense.


While a portion of what I said was nearing hyperbolic, why is it ridiculous, embarrassing, etc. to expect more from him? Like he said post game, he sees himself being MVP caliber. To be an MVP, or even in the discussion, you need not only the stats but doing the little things which I think Beal has gotten away from because he's not focused in throughout the game.

Big time players, should have have big time expectations. I don't care if Beal had a TS% of 54%, what I did see was a lot was whining to refs while the other team launched up court, needless pounding of the ball into double and triple teams then acting perplexed and stuck in mud after being easily stripped, and lackadaisical defense especially on help and switches. I get that Beal has physical limitations, but that doesn't mean he can't lead by example on most, if not all, possessions.

Let's not sit here and act like Beal has really ever shown any leadership qualities either. Say what you want about Westbrook's style of play, but he brings it. Even outside his motor, he genuinely acts like every play matters. So maybe its not time to trade Beal, maybe I was off base there, but glossing over problematic tendencies with advanced statistics is condoning the obvious.
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Re: East 1st Round - Game #5: Bullets @ 76ers 7 PM (NBA TV/NBCSW/1500 AM) 

Post#227 » by Dat2U » Sat Jun 5, 2021 5:09 pm

DCZards wrote:
TGW wrote:Lol at loser mentality. So “going all in” on the eighth seed and getting your ass embarrassed in the first round is not a loser mentality?

The just be happy gang will always be satisfied with mediocrity.

That’s what worries you...being “embarrassed”? You’d prefer that the team quit and not make the playoffs in order to avoid being “embarrassed?” Really?

That’s the definition of a loser mentality.


In all honesty yes. I wish the team quit. It would have made firing Brooks and tearing down the roster all that much easier. I was quiet during the late season run for the most part. Didn't post much cause it pissed me off lol.

What did that amazing run get us? Some pats on the back from the local media and a chance to run it back with the same coach!

I don't think its loser mentality to recognize the obvious and want to change direction.

I think it's complete insanity to double down on hope when theirs no realistic path forward.
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Re: East 1st Round - Game #5: Bullets @ 76ers 7 PM (NBA TV/NBCSW/1500 AM) 

Post#228 » by Dat2U » Sat Jun 5, 2021 5:11 pm

That said I'm okay with going "all in" if that's what they really do. Beats standing pat.
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Re: East 1st Round - Game #5: Bullets @ 76ers 7 PM (NBA TV/NBCSW/1500 AM) 

Post#229 » by DCZards » Sat Jun 5, 2021 5:27 pm

Dat2U wrote:In all honesty yes. I wish the team quit. It would have made firing Brooks and tearing down the roster all that much easier. I was quiet during the late season run for the most part. Didn't post much cause it pissed me off lol.

I'm surprised to hear you say that, Dat. I too want to see Brooks gone...and I think he will be. But I can't even use that to justify or defend quitting.

I guess to each his own.
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Re: East 1st Round - Game #5: Bullets @ 76ers 7 PM (NBA TV/NBCSW/1500 AM) 

Post#230 » by WallToWall » Sat Jun 5, 2021 6:23 pm

Dat2U wrote:In all honesty yes. I wish the team quit. It would have made firing Brooks and tearing down the roster all that much easier. I was quiet during the late season run for the most part. Didn't post much cause it pissed me off lol.

Agree. We would have been better off going for a better draft pick, and having Beal go for the scoring title. The scoring title would have been a feather in his cap, and it would do something to attract other players to the team. We had 2 young guys who gained experience in the playoffs...Gafford and Hach. Did that experience benefit the team more than a higher draft pick and a scoring title? I think not.
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Re: East 1st Round - Game #5: Bullets @ 76ers 7 PM (NBA TV/NBCSW/1500 AM) 

Post#231 » by Dat2U » Sat Jun 5, 2021 8:25 pm

DCZards wrote:
Dat2U wrote:In all honesty yes. I wish the team quit. It would have made firing Brooks and tearing down the roster all that much easier. I was quiet during the late season run for the most part. Didn't post much cause it pissed me off lol.

I'm surprised to hear you say that, Dat. I too want to see Brooks gone...and I think he will be. But I can't even use that to justify or defend quitting.

I guess to each his own.


Long term view. Our season is over right now. We got the #15th pick and pats on the back for finishing strong. What's next?

Does it not concern you that Brooks hasn't been summarily dismissed and the two stars want him back?
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Re: East 1st Round - Game #5: Bullets @ 76ers 7 PM (NBA TV/NBCSW/1500 AM) 

Post#232 » by DCZards » Sat Jun 5, 2021 9:33 pm

Dat2U wrote:
DCZards wrote:
Dat2U wrote:In all honesty yes. I wish the team quit. It would have made firing Brooks and tearing down the roster all that much easier. I was quiet during the late season run for the most part. Didn't post much cause it pissed me off lol.

I'm surprised to hear you say that, Dat. I too want to see Brooks gone...and I think he will be. But I can't even use that to justify or defend quitting.

I guess to each his own.


Long term view. Our season is over right now. We got the #15th pick and pats on the back for finishing strong. What's next?

Does it not concern you that Brooks hasn't been summarily dismissed and the two stars want him back?

It does concern me some that a decision on Brooks hasn’t been announced. Boston quickly made announcements on Ainge and Stevens...and Portland moved on from Stotts in less than 48 hrs.

However, it did take the Hornets a couple of weeks to part ways with Clifford.

I’d expect/hope to hear something regarding Scottie’s fate in the next 2-3 days.

I’m not convinced that both stars want Brooks back. Russ definitely does but Beal seems more flexible.
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Re: East 1st Round - Game #5: Bullets @ 76ers 7 PM (NBA TV/NBCSW/1500 AM) 

Post#233 » by doclinkin » Sat Jun 5, 2021 9:58 pm

DCZards wrote:
Dat2U wrote:
DCZards wrote:I'm surprised to hear you say that, Dat. I too want to see Brooks gone...and I think he will be. But I can't even use that to justify or defend quitting.

I guess to each his own.


Long term view. Our season is over right now. We got the #15th pick and pats on the back for finishing strong. What's next?

Does it not concern you that Brooks hasn't been summarily dismissed and the two stars want him back?

It does concern me some that a decision on Brooks hasn’t been announced. Boston quickly made announcements on Ainge and Stevens...and Portland moved on from Stotts in less than 48 hrs.

However, it did take the Hornets a couple of weeks to part ways with Clifford.

I’d expect/hope to hear something regarding Scottie’s fate in the next 2-3 days.

I’m not convinced that both stars want Brooks back. Russ definitely does but Beal seems more flexible.


I think it may be a sign that the Wiz want to make a run for Masai before they recruit a coach. Or make a decision one way or the other. Ted will recall we hired Eddie "F" Jordan before Grunfeld moved in, and the front office and coach were somewhat at odds on personnel his whole tenure. Likewise here with Tommy and Brooks.

I think there may have been, if not a wink wink deal, but at least a long term plan to give Masai the top spot when they brought him in the last time. I expect he indicated interest, but said he would like to play out his contract in Toronto and honor his commitments. To which I imagine Ted said, okay, but we are structuring things in such a way that there is room for you to step right in if you choose when your contract term is up. Come back and talk.

Seems to me there is a reason the Wiz front office has the "Vice President of snacks and beverages" "Vice President of Basketball Memorabilia" "Vice President of knee socks and athletic tape..." and no President of anything. And they bumped the interim guy up to GM. Though I think it possible we retain Tommy after recruiting for a President of Basketball Operations, from my understanding he had a good relationship with people in Denver's front office when Masai was there. I expect they want to offer the job with the full freedom to build his own staff. Head coach is any Basketball exec's key signing.
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Re: East 1st Round - Game #5: Bullets @ 76ers 7 PM (NBA TV/NBCSW/1500 AM) 

Post#234 » by TGW » Sat Jun 5, 2021 11:05 pm

God I hope you're right doc.
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Re: East 1st Round - Game #5: Bullets @ 76ers 7 PM (NBA TV/NBCSW/1500 AM) 

Post#235 » by payitforward » Sat Jun 5, 2021 11:06 pm

DCZards wrote:...I’m not convinced that both stars want Brooks back. Russ definitely does but Beal seems more flexible.

I'm not even convinced that Russ "wants Brooks back" -- whatever he says on the subject. Tho I'm not suggesting that means he "wants Brooks gone."

Russell has a long relationship with Scott Brooks, & like all human relationships it's not entirely bounded by the work environment. I'm sure he would think he was being disloyal if he didn't affirm good things about Brooks & what he did this season.

I would guess that he thinks that he is "doing the right thing" -- & I agree! He is.

That doesn't mean that if we let Scott Brooks go he is going to lose sleep over it. Or even be "mad" about it. Or even think, "what a mistake." It's a business, & Russell knows it.
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Re: East 1st Round - Game #5: Bullets @ 76ers 7 PM (NBA TV/NBCSW/1500 AM) 

Post#236 » by wall_glizzy » Sat Jun 5, 2021 11:10 pm

There's no decision to be made on Brooks! He is no longer the coach of the Wizards. I'd expect the next announcement to be whichever coach the Wizards are signing to a new contract... that could be Brooks, of course, and god forbid, but there's no "news" to come in regards to letting him go; no options to decline, no contract to void. As of this moment, the Wizards have no head coach for the 2021-2022 season.

You guys remember that when Robin Lopez joined the Wizards, the news was that we had signed him, not that Milwaukee had elected not to sign him, right?
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Re: East 1st Round - Game #5: Bullets @ 76ers 7 PM (NBA TV/NBCSW/1500 AM) 

Post#237 » by payitforward » Sun Jun 6, 2021 12:04 am

DCZards wrote:
Dat2U wrote:...Does it not concern you that Brooks hasn't been summarily dismissed and the two stars want him back?

It does concern me some that a decision on Brooks hasn’t been announced. Boston quickly made announcements on Ainge and Stevens...and Portland moved on from Stotts in less than 48 hrs.

However, it did take the Hornets a couple of weeks to part ways with Clifford.

I’d expect/hope to hear something regarding Scottie’s fate in the next 2-3 days.

I’m not convinced that both stars want Brooks back. Russ definitely does but Beal seems more flexible.

It doesn't concern me that Brooks hasn't been fired yet. Though I would like to see him fired.

I don't see the relevance of the situation in Boston -- I imagine that plan which has been in place for some months. As to Portland, hasn't it been known for a while that Stotts had to take the team deep into the playoffs to keep his job? I thought so.

As to this...
doclinkin wrote:I think it may be a sign that the Wiz want to make a run for Masai before they recruit a coach. Or make a decision one way or the other. Ted will recall we hired Eddie "F" Jordan before Grunfeld moved in, and the front office and coach were somewhat at odds on personnel his whole tenure. Likewise here with Tommy and Brooks....

If there's any thought whatever of replacing Tommy, then for sure we wouldn't have hired a coach!

But this...
doclinkin wrote:...I think there may have been, if not a wink wink deal, but at least a long term plan to give Masai the top spot when they brought him in the last time. I expect he indicated interest, but said he would like to play out his contract in Toronto and honor his commitments. To which I imagine Ted said, okay, but we are structuring things in such a way that there is room for you to step right in if you choose when your contract term is up. Come back and talk....

...has the slight problem that there was no "last time." They never "brought him in." Hence, he could not "Come back and talk," & the rest of what you "imagine Ted said," is just that, doc, something you imagine -- i.e. imaginary.

Ujiri was under contract to Toronto in 2019. Toronto did not let him go out & interview for a bunch of other jobs!

Moreover, I believe most of the speculation about Ujiri coming to Washington was in May. Toronto went on to win the NBA Championship a month later.

Now, I don't suppose Masai Ujiri will stay in Toronto several more decades. It seems more likely that he'll have other jobs. & to be sure, we'd all like Masai Ujiri to run the Wizards. Also, the fans of most other teams would like Ujiri to run their teams. That's as far as it goes.

OTOH, this
doclinkin wrote:...Seems to me there is a reason the Wiz front office has the "Vice President of snacks and beverages" "Vice President of Basketball Memorabilia" "Vice President of knee socks and athletic tape..." and no President of anything. And they bumped the interim guy up to GM. Though I think it possible we retain Tommy after recruiting for a President of Basketball Operations, from my understanding he had a good relationship with people in Denver's front office when Masai was there. I expect they want to offer the job with the full freedom to build his own staff. Head coach is any Basketball exec's key signing.

...makes perfect sense. Ted must be holding that job open, because he'd like to fill it with someone new to the organization -- or so it seems. Wch is logical. But, this has nothing specifically to do with Masai Ujiri.

OTOH, it's certainly possible Ted won't proceed on a new coach, because first he wants to make a decision about whether he's retaining Tommy Sheppard. Or maybe promoting Tommy to that empty Presidency. Or maybe he'll fire Tommy.

OTOH, the team finished the season 17-6. The team made the playoffs after starting 17-32. Tommy made an unquestionably terrific move at the deadline -- a move which, w/o question, was what made possible the great finish & brief playoff appearance.

Of course, Ted could fire Tommy, or hire someone else above Tommy (i.e. not Ujiri), b/c we lost to the Sixers in 5 games. It doesn't seem likely, but it could happen. Yet, Tommy's language & attitude at the post-season presser was of a person firmly in charge. & Ted does seem to give his executives some rope.

Let's just hope that doesn't mean we'll see Scott Brooks back next year. Unfortunately, that might be more likely than the arrival of Masai Ujiri. :(
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Re: East 1st Round - Game #5: Bullets @ 76ers 7 PM (NBA TV/NBCSW/1500 AM) 

Post#238 » by doclinkin » Sun Jun 6, 2021 3:19 pm

payitforward wrote:
doclinkin wrote:I think it may be a sign that the Wiz want to make a run for Masai before they recruit a coach. Or make a decision one way or the other. Ted will recall we hired Eddie "F" Jordan before Grunfeld moved in, and the front office and coach were somewhat at odds on personnel his whole tenure. Likewise here with Tommy and Brooks....

If there's any thought whatever of replacing Tommy, then for sure we wouldn't have hired a coach!

But this...
doclinkin wrote:...I think there may have been, if not a wink wink deal, but at least a long term plan to give Masai the top spot when they brought him in the last time. I expect he indicated interest, but said he would like to play out his contract in Toronto and honor his commitments. To which I imagine Ted said, okay, but we are structuring things in such a way that there is room for you to step right in if you choose when your contract term is up. Come back and talk....

...has the slight problem that there was no "last time." They never "brought him in." Hence, he could not "Come back and talk," & the rest of what you "imagine Ted said," is just that, doc, something you imagine -- i.e. imaginary.

Ujiri was under contract to Toronto in 2019. Toronto did not let him go out & interview for a bunch of other jobs!


Smoke came out from various sources close to Masai that he had real interest in coming to Washington. Then local reporters had the outlines of a supposed deal in place: $10 million annually, six years for $60 million, a percentage of ownership and control over other Monumental Sports & Entertainment properties. Washington was expected to reach out to Toronto to request permission to talk with him within the next few weeks.

Then Toronto's management group said: they fully expect to keep Masai, he was like a son to them, etc, and he should have everything he wants by staying in place. The rumors went away.

Yes, correct, Washington did not officially bring him in. However. These numbers were not simply made up by reporters to sell papers. Do you think it is impossible that Masai's agent had a phone call with Ted? I fully expect by the sequence of events, Ted's research hunt suggested Ujiri was one of the best fits for the job. Calls were made, Masai expressed interest, his agent talked about the general terms. And in floating the question of permission, yeah Masai won the championship and Toronto shut down speculation.

Then the wizards did a half-assed job of recruiting anyone else. Stuck with Tommy. And put no President title on all the people they did bring in. Vice presidents of absolutely everything.

OTOH, this
doclinkin wrote:...Seems to me there is a reason the Wiz front office has the "Vice President of snacks and beverages" "Vice President of Basketball Memorabilia" "Vice President of knee socks and athletic tape..." and no President of anything. And they bumped the interim guy up to GM. Though I think it possible we retain Tommy after recruiting for a President of Basketball Operations, from my understanding he had a good relationship with people in Denver's front office when Masai was there. I expect they want to offer the job with the full freedom to build his own staff. Head coach is any Basketball exec's key signing.

...makes perfect sense. Ted must be holding that job open, because he'd like to fill it with someone new to the organization -- or so it seems. Wch is logical. But, this has nothing specifically to do with Masai Ujiri.


Okay sure who knows. I am suggesting one potential chain of events that continues to be hinted at by smoke signals rising from both camps. Yes those smoke signals are hastily puffed away by Toronto, who clearly hopes to retain Ujiri.

One thing is true: Ujiri did not renew his contract during the season. No extension was reached after winning the Championship. Now all of this has been a topic of conversation for a while, but Masai has given no strong verbal commitment to re-up with the Raptors. Things will happen in time, he likes Toronto just fine, at the appropriate time he will meet and discuss etc.

He may not sign here, but he has given every appearance of a guy who wants to be recruited to see who values him the most and find out what the offers are. I expect Toronto's offer may match and exceed whatever Ted is willing to offer. That seems to be the pattern here, except to over-the-hill or injured players under Grunfeld's watch. The apparent mutual interest between Masai and DC may simply be about increasing leverage at the bargaining table. But. The initial reports came from sources close to Masai. The numbers came from sources close to Washington reporters. Then Toronto won, and their ownership group said no no no no no.

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