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2021 Offseason

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Re: 2021 Offseason 

Post#141 » by payitforward » Tue Jun 8, 2021 11:54 pm

NatP4 wrote:I tried to be optimistic about Brown Jr, but what about his game/college production suggested he would be a good NBA player?

Not clear what your point is, since Troy Brown was already a very good NBA player his second year in the league -- at 20 years old.
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Re: 2021 Offseason 

Post#142 » by NatP4 » Wed Jun 9, 2021 12:03 am

payitforward wrote:
NatP4 wrote:I tried to be optimistic about Brown Jr, but what about his game/college production suggested he would be a good NBA player?

Not clear what your point is, since Troy Brown was already a very good NBA player his second year in the league -- at 20 years old.


Yes, he had some nice basic counting stats.
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Re: 2021 Offseason 

Post#143 » by DCZards » Wed Jun 9, 2021 12:14 am

NatP4 wrote:
payitforward wrote:
NatP4 wrote:I tried to be optimistic about Brown Jr, but what about his game/college production suggested he would be a good NBA player?

Not clear what your point is, since Troy Brown was already a very good NBA player his second year in the league -- at 20 years old.


Yes, he had some nice basic counting stats.

What’s the difference between “basic counting stats” and regular stats?
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Re: 2021 Offseason 

Post#144 » by payitforward » Wed Jun 9, 2021 12:19 am

You know, nat, sometimes you try to be smart, & other times it's just smart-axx instead. I like it better when you take your head outta there & put your thinking cap on. But that's just me.

Then again, I remember you praising Troy Brown with enthusiasm for the season he had in 2019-20. You were right.

In the end, though, it doesn't much matter -- & we'll see over time how good a player Troy is.

I mean we'll see whether you are right about him now, or if David Aldridge is right about him & you are wrong.
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Re: 2021 Offseason 

Post#145 » by 9 and 20 » Wed Jun 9, 2021 12:55 am

mhd wrote:Posted a modified trade idea in the trade board, but thought it would make sense here:

Wiz trade: Bertans+Bryant (expiring)+Hutchison (expiring)+15 for Horford+Jerome+10
NO trade: Bledsoe+10 for Bertans+Hutchison+15+35
OKC trade: Horford (14.5 million guaranteed in his last year)+Jerome+35 for Bryant (expiring)+Bledsoe (only 3.5 million guaranteed in his last year)

OKC saves roughly 15 million in real cash in the deal. NO gets Bertans to add some needed shooting around Zion. If we were able to move up to #10, we could maybe get Wagner:

NEW LINEUP:
PG: Russ/Jerome
SG: Beal/Matthews
SF: Deni/Wagner
PF: Rui/Gill
C: Horford/Gafford

Sign a vet 3&D forward, and we'd be in much better shape next year.
[/quote]

Could this just be simplified with OKC cut out completely? Something built around Bertans for Bledsoe. Maybe swap 10 for 15 if they like the Bertans fit. I have no idea who I would draft at 10, but 10 is better than 15, so why not? NO has a bunch of picks from the Anthony Davis trade so if not the 10, then maybe something else.
Can't say I do. Who else gonna shoot?
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Re: 2021 Offseason 

Post#146 » by FAH1223 » Wed Jun 9, 2021 6:05 am

Another wing option: Rudy Gay off the bench?
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Re: 2021 Offseason 

Post#147 » by Ruzious » Wed Jun 9, 2021 10:02 am

FAH1223 wrote:Another wing option: Rudy Gay off the bench?

Yeah, he's probably got something left in the tank. I'd guess he wants to go ring chase, so he'd probably have to think the Wiz have a real chance.
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Re: 2021 Offseason 

Post#148 » by Dat2U » Wed Jun 9, 2021 12:13 pm

payitforward wrote:
NatP4 wrote:I tried to be optimistic about Brown Jr, but what about his game/college production suggested he would be a good NBA player?

Not clear what your point is, since Troy Brown was already a very good NBA player his second year in the league -- at 20 years old.


Lies. Let me guess. It was the rebounding that made his numbers look OK? :nonono:

Or was the run in the bubble where he go to be the man for some meaningless games?

Daniel Gafford is a very good NBA player. Why? He clearly has an impact in winning games. You certainly cannot say the same for Troy Brown Jr who we didn't really seem to miss after he was dealt.
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Re: 2021 Offseason 

Post#149 » by dckingsfan » Wed Jun 9, 2021 1:41 pm

prime1time wrote:...From the sound of it, next season will probably hinge on the grow the growth of Hachimura and Avidja. It’ll be interesting to see how there respective roles change.

prime1time wrote:I think the value from Bertans will be more clearly seen when we get another knock down shooter who can play big minutes. When there’s only one on the floor teams can easily take him away. With two, good shooters we’ll start to see a real difference in terms of floor spacing and allowing Beal/Westbrook to work.

I think that coaching and your two posts are linked.

The offense, they run to the corner and camp. They don't hit the 3 effectively so they don't have to be covered closely reducing spacing and allowing Bertans to be blanketed.

Either one of the two or both need to be able to hit the corner 3 at a high rate or the offense needs to change (or both).

Like last off-season, this next season will hinge on the improvements of the youngsters. Well, and improvements in the offensive and defensive schemas.
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Re: 2021 Offseason 

Post#150 » by pcbothwel » Wed Jun 9, 2021 1:56 pm

9 and 20 wrote:Could this just be simplified with OKC cut out completely? Something built around Bertans for Bledsoe. Maybe swap 10 for 15 if they like the Bertans fit. I have no idea who I would draft at 10, but 10 is better than 15, so why not? NO has a bunch of picks from the Anthony Davis trade so if not the 10, then maybe something else.


Ehhh, I dont like it for 3 reasons.
1) We are not a good 3 point shooting team, and we are very inconsistent from the wing spot as Deni/Rui arent shooters at this point. Any deal moving bertans needs to keep this in mind.
2) This trade would add about 3M in salary each of the next two years. As a team right up against the tax, this seems ill advised. This financial issue is further exemplified by then having 95M dedicated to our backcourt :o :o :o . Sorry, but that just isnt feasible.
3) I dont see a talent drop from 10 to 15, so the trade up doesnt really carry the weight it should. We then are hamstrung a bit as we really cant draft a guard as they would be behind Russ & Bledsoe. So it forces us to draft wing, which im not a fan of if Wagner is gone.
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Re: 2021 Offseason 

Post#151 » by NatP4 » Wed Jun 9, 2021 1:57 pm

dckingsfan wrote:
prime1time wrote:...From the sound of it, next season will probably hinge on the grow the growth of Hachimura and Avidja. It’ll be interesting to see how there respective roles change.

prime1time wrote:I think the value from Bertans will be more clearly seen when we get another knock down shooter who can play big minutes. When there’s only one on the floor teams can easily take him away. With two, good shooters we’ll start to see a real difference in terms of floor spacing and allowing Beal/Westbrook to work.

I think that coaching and your two posts are linked.

The offense, they run to the corner and camp. They don't hit the 3 effectively so they don't have to be covered closely reducing spacing and allowing Bertans to be blanketed.

Either one of the two or both need to be able to hit the corner 3 at a high rate or the offense needs to change (or both).

Like last off-season, this next season will hinge on the improvements of the youngsters. Well, and improvements in the offensive and defensive schemas.


So true. It’s hilarious that people used to call Scott Brooks a player development coach. If they want Deni and Rui to succeed, they have to play to their strengths.

Deni needs the ball in his hands, his biggest strength going into the draft was his ability to be a secondary playmaker. Not a spot up/stand in the corner guy.

Rui needs isolation possessions, his biggest strength is his ability to create his own shot. Not a spot up/stand in the corner guy.
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Re: 2021 Offseason 

Post#152 » by payitforward » Wed Jun 9, 2021 1:57 pm

Dat2U wrote:
payitforward wrote:
NatP4 wrote:I tried to be optimistic about Brown Jr, but what about his game/college production suggested he would be a good NBA player?

Not clear what your point is, since Troy Brown was already a very good NBA player his second year in the league -- at 20 years old.


Lies. Let me guess. It was the rebounding that made his numbers look OK? :nonono:

Or was the run in the bubble where he go to be the man for some meaningless games?

Daniel Gafford is a very good NBA player. Why? He clearly has an impact in winning games. You certainly cannot say the same for Troy Brown Jr who we didn't really seem to miss after he was dealt.

No need for the rhetorical excess, Dat -- have I ever called you a liar?

Let's not waste time on Troy -- he's gone. Probably I should have written that he was already good "in many ways," since we both know that there were ways in which he wasn't good. Nor did we know we could trade him for Gafford!

Still, given that Troy his second season when he was younger than all but 3-5 players in the league, & given that his numbers improved pretty much across the board, yes, he was quite good.

Note that I didn't compare him to Gafford -- that kid is a phenom! At this point, he looks like one of the 4-6 best players out of the '19 draft.

Where did you have him rated, btw? Why don't you link back to your tiers for the 2019 draft; it'd be rewarding to see how right you were about that one.
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Re: 2021 Offseason 

Post#153 » by dckingsfan » Wed Jun 9, 2021 2:05 pm

The biggest problem that TBJ had here was a mismatch with the schema and a slow start. Brooks was never going to play a big guard when he could play small guards. He was also relegated to standing in the corner and shooting 3s.

But the TBJ for Gafford trade was awesome!

Tommy now has a choice (or should I say Ted/Tommy). Either stick with Brooks and get a bunch of corner 3 point specialists or move on to a coach that can utilize the strengths of the players.

It seems an obvious choice standing waaaaaay back from the epicenter of the rumbling. Up close it probably isn't that clear-cut.
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Re: 2021 Offseason 

Post#154 » by nate33 » Wed Jun 9, 2021 2:06 pm

FAH1223 wrote:Another wing option: Rudy Gay off the bench?

Most guys being mentioned, guys like Rudy Gay and Otto Porter, were small forwards in their youth but have slowed down and bulked up over the years to play PF. We are already in pretty decent shape at PF with Rui, Hachimura and Avdija all being best-suited to play that position. What we need is a more agile guy with good perimeter shooting and ball handling. We need a true SF.
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Re: 2021 Offseason 

Post#155 » by nate33 » Wed Jun 9, 2021 2:11 pm

NatP4 wrote:So true. It’s hilarious that people used to call Scott Brooks a player development coach. If they want Deni and Rui to succeed, they have to play to their strengths.

Deni needs the ball in his hands, his biggest strength going into the draft was his ability to be a secondary playmaker. Not a spot up/stand in the corner guy.

Rui needs isolation possessions, his biggest strength is his ability to create his own shot. Not a spot up/stand in the corner guy.

I agree with you about Deni. The guy has too good of a feel for the game to be used exclusively as a finisher on offense.

I disagree a bit with Rui. Yes, he can create his own midrange shot, but it's not really I skill I'd like to focus on developing at the moment because it's a low percentage shot. I think Rui will be much better off as a stand-in-the-corner guy who occasionally cuts to the rim. I'd be okay if he didn't take one step-back midrange shot all summer long and instead focused on catch-and-shoot corner 3's. We saw in the playoffs how useful he can be if he can stick that 3-pointer. Now I'd like for him to shoot 4-5 a game at 37% instead of 2-3 a game at 33%.

If he ever masters the catch-and-shoot 3, then he can get back to working on his one-on-one shot-creation skills. And even then, I really want him to focus on post-up moves against shorter defenders so he can punish mismatches. I'm not that interested in his step-back midrange shot. That should only be a bail-out shot, not a regular feature of our offense.
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Re: 2021 Offseason 

Post#156 » by mhd » Wed Jun 9, 2021 2:19 pm

nate33 wrote:
FAH1223 wrote:Another wing option: Rudy Gay off the bench?

Most guys being mentioned, guys like Rudy Gay and Otto Porter, were small forwards in their youth but have slowed down and bulked up over the years to play PF. We are already in pretty decent shape at PF with Rui, Hachimura and Avdija all being best-suited to play that position. What we need is a more agile guy with good perimeter shooting and ball handling. We need a true SF.



Yeah, I don't think Otto can guard quickness that effectively anymore. His hip issues have rendered him a small-ball PF. We desperately need an athletic defensive wing who can hit open 3s. Unfortunately, Bonga never developed his shot.
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Re: 2021 Offseason 

Post#157 » by Ruzious » Wed Jun 9, 2021 2:33 pm

nate33 wrote:
FAH1223 wrote:Another wing option: Rudy Gay off the bench?

Most guys being mentioned, guys like Rudy Gay and Otto Porter, were small forwards in their youth but have slowed down and bulked up over the years to play PF. We are already in pretty decent shape at PF with Rui, Hachimura and Avdija all being best-suited to play that position. What we need is a more agile guy with good perimeter shooting and ball handling. We need a true SF.

If we get Otto, I think we gotta have Rui defend mostly 3's with Otto on 4's - though there's always going to be switches. Really, Rui doesn't have the instincts to defend bigger and more aggressive PF types, anyway and had some mixed success defending wings.
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Re: 2021 Offseason 

Post#158 » by Illuminaire » Wed Jun 9, 2021 3:35 pm

9 and 20 wrote:Could this just be simplified with OKC cut out completely? Something built around Bertans for Bledsoe. Maybe swap 10 for 15 if they like the Bertans fit. I have no idea who I would draft at 10, but 10 is better than 15, so why not? NO has a bunch of picks from the Anthony Davis trade so if not the 10, then maybe something else.


Bledsoe is a bum. His defense is overrated, and he is the crappy version of a combo guard. Doesn't space the floor, finishes poorly, turns the ball over when it hurts the most.

Everyone in NO wants this guy gone. I hope he does get traded like this... just not to the Wizards. I'd feel bad. :lol:
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Re: 2021 Offseason 

Post#159 » by mhd » Wed Jun 9, 2021 3:39 pm

Maybe I'm going senile, but about Wiggins? GSW have huge lux tax issues (they are 40 million over right now!). Here's a 3-way I just thought of that works in the trade machine:

Wiz trade Bertans+Bryant (expiring)+Hutchison (expiring) for Wiggins+#34+#35
GSW trade Wiggins+#14 for Bertans+Jerome
OKC trade Jerome+#34+#35 for Hutchison (expiring)+Bryant (expiring)+#14

GSW saves roughly 12.2 million is salary (which equates to 76 million is lux tax savings) while getting Bertans (who is a great fit for them) and Jerome.

OKC consolidates some young talent in getting #14 (and giving up the valuable Jerome on a cheap deal).

We get Wiggins to fill the gaping hole at SF (He shot 38% last year from 3) while getting two high 2nds for young cheap bench players.
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Re: 2021 Offseason 

Post#160 » by badinage » Wed Jun 9, 2021 3:47 pm

I kinda like this. But do the Warriors? *


* And how about they do a name change one of these days.

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