ImageImageImageImageImage

2021 Offseason & Offseason Grades

Moderators: LyricalRico, nate33, montestewart

Offseason grade

A
7
25%
B
17
61%
C
3
11%
D
0
No votes
F
1
4%
 
Total votes: 28

payitforward
RealGM
Posts: 17,249
And1: 5,623
Joined: May 02, 2012
Location: On the Atlantic

Re: 2021 Offseason & Offseason Grades 

Post#1421 » by payitforward » Wed Sep 1, 2021 11:17 pm

It depends where you wear the footwear.

I didn't understand that you meant, reasonably enough, that it'd be hard for two small guards to play together & succeed. Thus, sure, Sexton might do better playing next to a big guard.

I thought you were saying something specific about his game that you thought might work better in that different context.

Again, in his favor, he's improved as a scorer year on year. I just don't see acquiring him for a guy we picked #9 a year ago as a "buy low" move.
Remember -- if you don't like the post above: blame Doc not me.
User avatar
doclinkin
RealGM
Posts: 11,038
And1: 3,211
Joined: Jul 26, 2004
Location: .wizuds.

Re: 2021 Offseason & Offseason Grades 

Post#1422 » by doclinkin » Tue Sep 7, 2021 2:51 pm

doclinkin wrote:
Until we win a few series in the postseason, then Dat's point stands. Whether we blame or credit Tommy, we can say his grade is incomplete until we are actually contending at the top of the leaderboard.

The question is as an organizational goal, is it enough for the Wizards to be a pretty good team of real good guys or is there a restless pursuit of I dunno, championship then dynasty.

The team's primary mission is to appear to be good people, then: anything else. And it comes out in Ted's public persona. Ted likes to make everything about Ted, and he tries to paint even his dog droppings as gold trophies.

Until we do win, and sustain winning, and advance and progress, I think it is a fair statement to say things have "stayed the same" in terms of the organization's arc towards a championship. We are committed to Being Good, double bottom good, first and above everything else. It gives us 2 finish lines. And as long as we cross the first finish line, then Ted can declare everything else a win.


Oh and really the 2nd bottom line has little to do with championships and more about money. I have thought the selection of Rui and Deni were partly driven by opening new markets. (Shoot, if there were a viable chinese player of equivalent talent doubtless we would reach for them as well). Then I dismiss that as cynical, surely Tommy would be given enough slack to make his own selections based on scouting etc. and not really have to check with everyone from Laurene Powell Jobs on down.

Then I read articles like this (excerpts from the article):

Add the Washington Wizards to the list of National Basketball Association teams looking to attract a jersey partner after a deal with insurance company Geico expired

MSE’s president of business operations, Jim Van Stone, frequently referred to the asset as a “unique opportunity,” adding international companies are top targets. “We think it’s a global opportunity,” he said. “We feel good about the package and what we can bring together for the right partner.”

NBA jersey sponsors see increased engagement around their brands when teams are featured in national games on ESPN and Turner Sports, and especially during the postseason. That means Geico didn’t benefit from TV and extra social media impressions since the Wizards failed to advance to the postseason twice.

Van Stone added global players on the roster, including rising star Rui Hachimura (Japan), Davis Bertans (Latvia), Raul Neto (Brazil) and Deni Avdija (Israel), could assist in luring international companies

MSE wants to have a new partner in place by October for the 2021-22 NBA season. Possible suitors for the asset include fintech companies. Japanese e-commerce company Mercari and Volkswagen could also align with MSE.

The club also has a sponsorship agreement with Capitol One and international partnerships with Japan-based tech company NEC Corp. and China-based e-commerce giant Alibaba. Last May, Caesars-owned William Hill gambling company aligned with MSE to open its property in the Washington, D.C., sports complex.

Van Stone said partners will also have exposure to its OTT streaming service and its ability to develop content in four different languages – English, Chinese, Japanese and Hebrew.

“Going into the jersey patch a couple of years ago, teams thought it could be big internationally, but I think it was still a wait and see,” Van Stone said. “But the numbers and value has proven that it’s an international opportunity.”


Yes it makes sense to maximize one's market with the assets you have. Sure if the team actually wins you will get better national exposure and command higher advertising rates. Still, no matter what the team does I am always aware that Ted first and foremost is performing a PR schtick to make Ted look good. To protect his personal brand. Even his missteps are most commonly about protecting his ego. After that you get to the 2nd bottom line, which sure, shouldn't surprise anyone, it's a business after all, but yeah: make money. Not 'win at all costs' but 'make money". Not a bad way to run a business, but sometimes not a great way to achieve the ultimate goal from a competitive standpoint. That was the aspect that made me do a doubletake when Ted rolled out the new organizational structure. That people like LPJ, Ted and Raul Fernandez would have any real say in basketball moves. That all decisions should be run past a board. This I believe is why we were never really a viable candidate for top execs in our hunt for a new GM.
payitforward
RealGM
Posts: 17,249
And1: 5,623
Joined: May 02, 2012
Location: On the Atlantic

Re: 2021 Offseason & Offseason Grades 

Post#1423 » by payitforward » Tue Sep 7, 2021 7:57 pm

You've got this a little bit wrong, doc. It's not about making Ted look good or protecting his personal brand or even about making money in any narrow sense. In fact, it's not even about the double bottom line -- nor, really, even about the Wizards.

It's about MSE. Ted wants to turn Monumental Sports & Entertainment into a major media giant.

In other words, Ted wants another really big business success -- something he hasn't had since AOL, which after all wasn't really his success in any central way. He helped, he did a very good job, but really it was Steve Case's success. Ted was in the sidekick role, the COO role. & pretty much everything he's been involved in since cashing out of AOL has either failed or been meh. Ted wants another big hit.

OTOH, you also have it right in a different sense. Ted's a billionaire. No matter how big a success MSE is, it's not going to promote him up to Bill Gates or Jeff Bezos level. So, it's more about his image of himself than anything else -- &, obviously, that's where the "double bottom line" stuff comes in as well.
Remember -- if you don't like the post above: blame Doc not me.
payitforward
RealGM
Posts: 17,249
And1: 5,623
Joined: May 02, 2012
Location: On the Atlantic

Re: 2021 Offseason & Offseason Grades 

Post#1424 » by payitforward » Tue Sep 7, 2021 8:27 pm

A few other things....

doclinkin wrote:...Until we win a few series in the postseason, then Dat's point stands. Whether we blame or credit Tommy, we can say his grade is incomplete until we are actually contending at the top of the leaderboard....

I don't see this. Just grade what he does or fails to do.

doclinkin wrote:...I have thought the selection of Rui and Deni were partly driven by opening new markets. ...Then I dismiss that as cynical, surely Tommy would be given enough slack to make his own selections based on scouting etc. and not really have to check with everyone from Laurene Powell Jobs on down....

A few days after the draft in '19, Tommy described himself & the organization as having been "all in on Rui." I find it hard to imagine that his marketing value wasn't a part of that.

Whether Deni was chosen for his Israeli market is another question. That's a pretty small market. But... Israel is an extremely successful & wealthy country. Ted might well want a royal road into the financial sectors of their economy.

doclinkin wrote:...Then I read articles like this (excerpts from the article):

...Van Stone added global players on the roster, including rising star Rui Hachimura (Japan), Davis Bertans (Latvia), Raul Neto (Brazil) and Deni Avdija (Israel), could assist in luring international companies....

Well, he would say this independent of how/why we acquired those players. They are assets in that kind of deal-making. Of course he's looking forward to leveraging them however he can.
Remember -- if you don't like the post above: blame Doc not me.
User avatar
doclinkin
RealGM
Posts: 11,038
And1: 3,211
Joined: Jul 26, 2004
Location: .wizuds.

Re: 2021 Offseason & Offseason Grades 

Post#1425 » by doclinkin » Wed Sep 8, 2021 1:05 am

payitforward wrote:A few other things....

doclinkin wrote:...Until we win a few series in the postseason, then Dat's point stands. Whether we blame or credit Tommy, we can say his grade is incomplete until we are actually contending at the top of the leaderboard....

I don't see this. Just grade what he does or fails to do.


Dat's point: the more things change the more they stay the same. If the mission is championship but the organization is satisfied simply with making the playoffs, or battling for the now-literal "9th seed" which used to be a joke but now is good enough to feel like we did something, then as an organization, we are setting our sights too low.

doclinkin wrote:...I have thought the selection of Rui and Deni were partly driven by opening new markets. ...Then I dismiss that as cynical, surely Tommy would be given enough slack to make his own selections based on scouting etc. and not really have to check with everyone from Laurene Powell Jobs on down....

A few days after the draft in '19, Tommy described himself & the organization as having been "all in on Rui." I find it hard to imagine that his marketing value wasn't a part of that.

Whether Deni was chosen for his Israeli market is another question. That's a pretty small market. But... Israel is an extremely successful & wealthy country. Ted might well want a royal road into the financial sectors of their economy.


Then you weren't paying attention when local boy Tamir Goodman was getting unfounded hype as the "Jewish Jordan" simply because he was an orthodox kid who could ball a bit, and refused to play games on the Sabbath. Israel has a longer reach than the borders of its country. A good looking Jewish kid drafted in the lottery is a big deal for many. Deni himself recognizes that:

From an article on NBCSportsWashington, BEFORE the draft:


Deni Avdija embraces chance to make history for Jewish athletes

Avdija is almost certain to be selected in the top 10 and could go as high as the top three. That could give Avdija a unique platform with people from the Jewish community worldwide and it is something he does not take lightly.

"It's exciting. Any time you can make history or any kind of good thing to represent the Jewish community and the state of Israel, that's an honor for me"

...

His numbers in the EuroLeague suggest it may take some time for him to find his niche in the NBA, but the potential is there for him to be a star and his international following could help the league find more global reach.

The Wizards saw a similar situation develop with their 2019 first-round pick Rui Hachimura, who became the highest draft pick in the history of Japan. That led to an increase in international attention, which included a regular presence of Japanese media at their games.

Avdija is hoping to do everything he can to live up to the hype and expectations.

"I know the [Jewish community] has my back. I'm just going to try to do the best I can to make everybody proud," he said.


I agree marketing concerns absolutely influence the decision making process. Which is not a championship oriented position. Which is why it is fair to say Tommy may be good but he may also be handicapped by concerns outside of the mission of winning a championship. We will likely overpay Beal to keep him, because he is a good guy and Ted likes to pay at least one home-grown star who is of high character and represents the team well in public. I like Beal, will be happy to have him as a centerpiece of the team, and still recognize that if Beal is your best player, you are not winning a chip.
payitforward
RealGM
Posts: 17,249
And1: 5,623
Joined: May 02, 2012
Location: On the Atlantic

Re: 2021 Offseason & Offseason Grades 

Post#1426 » by payitforward » Wed Sep 8, 2021 1:53 am

Yes, this makes perfect sense throughout. I was restricting Tommy's "grade" to the quality of the moves he makes, rather than their intentions -- given that there is an overall corporate strategy coming from Ted's office. That strategy, I agree, we cannot yet say has changed.

Nor would I suggest that Tommy gets a final grade yet -- not after 2 years & 4 months. But, overall, we have certainly begun to draw some conclusions about his way of working. He's opportunistic, he's a deal-maker, he doesn't lack confidence, but he is somehow unimaginative in the draft.

Then there's his idiotic handling of Davis Bertans. But I've repeated that often enough.

As to Tamir Goodman, allthough I missed that phenomenon altogether, I am nonetheless happy to wish you l'shanah tova, Doc, today being one of the holiest days of the year.
Remember -- if you don't like the post above: blame Doc not me.
dckingsfan
RealGM
Posts: 24,106
And1: 10,741
Joined: May 28, 2010

Re: 2021 Offseason & Offseason Grades 

Post#1427 » by dckingsfan » Thu Sep 9, 2021 12:21 am

If we do a consolidation trade 3 for 1 for example. Can we then take a flyer on Harry Giles?
payitforward
RealGM
Posts: 17,249
And1: 5,623
Joined: May 02, 2012
Location: On the Atlantic

Re: 2021 Offseason & Offseason Grades 

Post#1428 » by payitforward » Thu Sep 9, 2021 2:29 am

That would take us to 13, so for sure we could try Giles (along w/ bringing back Mathews for example).

But... Giles has had a lot of chances to show something, & he hasn't.
Remember -- if you don't like the post above: blame Doc not me.
User avatar
Chocolate City Jordanaire
RealGM
Posts: 49,360
And1: 7,418
Joined: Aug 05, 2001
Location: Mililani, Hawaii (Oahu)
Contact:
       

Re: 2021 Offseason & Offseason Grades 

Post#1429 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:05 pm

Does John Wall now trying to negotiate his way out of Houston make Tommy Shepherd look like a better GM having already processed Russell Westbrook into other assets? Off-season grave looks better to me. Let's see what Houston gets for John Wall
After the Wizards GM really went and did it by having an imaginative, strong, draft day. I totally feel this as well;

AFM wrote:Don't sleep on these white bois. That's all I'm saying.
User avatar
Chocolate City Jordanaire
RealGM
Posts: 49,360
And1: 7,418
Joined: Aug 05, 2001
Location: Mililani, Hawaii (Oahu)
Contact:
       

Re: 2021 Offseason & Offseason Grades 

Post#1430 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:05 pm

Sheppard
After the Wizards GM really went and did it by having an imaginative, strong, draft day. I totally feel this as well;

AFM wrote:Don't sleep on these white bois. That's all I'm saying.
payitforward
RealGM
Posts: 17,249
And1: 5,623
Joined: May 02, 2012
Location: On the Atlantic

Re: 2021 Offseason & Offseason Grades 

Post#1431 » by payitforward » Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:34 pm

I brought this up in the ex-wizards thread -- but it's not a matter of him trying to negotiate out of Houston as a mutual recognition that moving him would be better for both.

Houston is rebuilding from scratch. John, even if he returns to form, doesn't fit their timeline. If they can get future-oriented assets for him it would be better for everyone. But... can they?

Might be interesting to see whether somehow Simmons & Wall can wind up exchanged (or moved in a 3-team deal...).
Remember -- if you don't like the post above: blame Doc not me.
payitforward
RealGM
Posts: 17,249
And1: 5,623
Joined: May 02, 2012
Location: On the Atlantic

Re: 2021 Offseason & Offseason Grades 

Post#1432 » by payitforward » Wed Sep 15, 2021 9:33 pm

Remember -- if you don't like the post above: blame Doc not me.
WallToWall
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,993
And1: 545
Joined: May 20, 2010
         

Re: 2021 Offseason & Offseason Grades 

Post#1433 » by WallToWall » Thu Sep 16, 2021 12:41 am


Good read. Rebounding is definitely a concern. Nobody on our current roster is an elite rebounder. I am not sure if it matters as we may embrace the team rebounding concept. What I am concerned about is that, other than Harrell, I don’t think we have rebounders with tenacity, and/or the jumps (think Rodman). So, we will loose those 50/50 balls, we may get pushed out of position. We will get those rebounds where we have established position and the ball comes our way.
Of greater concern are our turnovers. Till our players learn the system and can execute it well, expect lots of turnovers. All of which could mean some early losses. I hope I am wrong. I want us to get to a good start, the players to be good and make quick study of the system, and the coach to “know” the players, and what they bring. Wish preseason was longer because of this.
dckingsfan
RealGM
Posts: 24,106
And1: 10,741
Joined: May 28, 2010

Re: 2021 Offseason & Offseason Grades 

Post#1434 » by dckingsfan » Thu Sep 16, 2021 2:12 pm

payitforward wrote:I brought this up in the ex-wizards thread -- but it's not a matter of him trying to negotiate out of Houston as a mutual recognition that moving him would be better for both.

Houston is rebuilding from scratch. John, even if he returns to form, doesn't fit their timeline. If they can get future-oriented assets for him it would be better for everyone. But... can they?

Might be interesting to see whether somehow Simmons & Wall can wind up exchanged (or moved in a 3-team deal...).

What I have seen is both parties seem to want to get this moving and they seem to have given Wall's agent the go ahead to find a new landing spot.

Here is the interesting thing (IMO) - the Rockets said (publicly anyway) they will give up no picks to move Wall. And they have no intention of waiving him.

That then puts it back on Wall. I don't see Wall giving up much of his salary and I don't see any teams taking Wall this year without compensation. Next year when he is an expiring - maybe.

Interesting that we moved Wall and got back Kuzma, KCP and Harrell for a protected first.
payitforward
RealGM
Posts: 17,249
And1: 5,623
Joined: May 02, 2012
Location: On the Atlantic

Re: 2021 Offseason & Offseason Grades 

Post#1435 » by payitforward » Thu Sep 16, 2021 4:54 pm

dckingsfan wrote:...Interesting that we moved Wall and got back Kuzma, KCP and Harrell for a protected first.

You're underestimating: we moved Wall & a protected first. We got back Harrell, Kuzma, KCP, & the #22 pick in the 2021 draft, which we turned into Holiday & the #31 pick in the same draft, which we used on Isaiah Todd.

Thus Kuzma, KCP, Harrell, Holiday & Todd for Wall & a protected R1 pick in 2023.
Remember -- if you don't like the post above: blame Doc not me.
dckingsfan
RealGM
Posts: 24,106
And1: 10,741
Joined: May 28, 2010

Re: 2021 Offseason & Offseason Grades 

Post#1436 » by dckingsfan » Thu Sep 16, 2021 4:59 pm

payitforward wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:...Interesting that we moved Wall and got back Kuzma, KCP and Harrell for a protected first.

You're underestimating: we moved Wall & a protected first. We got back Harrell, Kuzma, KCP, & the #22 pick in the 2021 draft, which we turned into Holiday & the #31 pick in the same draft, which we used on Isaiah Todd.

Thus Kuzma, KCP, Harrell, Holiday & Todd for Wall & a protected R1 pick in 2023.

Damn, a pretty good transaction. Let's see what Houston gets (or has to give up)...
payitforward
RealGM
Posts: 17,249
And1: 5,623
Joined: May 02, 2012
Location: On the Atlantic

Re: 2021 Offseason & Offseason Grades 

Post#1437 » by payitforward » Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:01 pm

I'll say -- One of the most brilliant two-step moves by a GM in many a year! Maybe the single most brilliant.

Keep in mind that we were all calling John's contract the worst in the league.

That's why negative views of Tommy's work overall are so very wrong-headed.

There are things to criticize of course,
Spoiler:
If he'd done these 3 things really well, we'd be extremely strong contenders in the East this year:

1. Taken Boston's offer of the #26 pick in 2020 for Bertans instead of re-signing him long term (& picked Pritchard)
2. Traded up from #37 to #35 that year (instead of down) & take Tillman.
3. Drafted with more imagination this year (not to mention in 2019! -- or R2 in 2018, for that matter, when I'm sure he was doing Ernie's work for him).
...but, overall, he's been absolutely terrific.
Remember -- if you don't like the post above: blame Doc not me.
dckingsfan
RealGM
Posts: 24,106
And1: 10,741
Joined: May 28, 2010

Re: 2021 Offseason & Offseason Grades 

Post#1438 » by dckingsfan » Thu Sep 16, 2021 11:11 pm

payitforward wrote:I'll say -- One of the most brilliant two-step moves by a GM in many a year! Maybe the single most brilliant.

Keep in mind that we were all calling John's contract the worst in the league.

That's why negative views of Tommy's work overall are so very wrong-headed.

There are things to criticize of course,
Spoiler:
If he'd done these 3 things really well, we'd be extremely strong contenders in the East this year:

1. Taken Boston's offer of the #26 pick in 2020 for Bertans instead of re-signing him long term (& picked Pritchard)
2. Traded up from #37 to #35 that year (instead of down) & take Tillman.
3. Drafted with more imagination this year (not to mention in 2019! -- or R2 in 2018, for that matter, when I'm sure he was doing Ernie's work for him).
...but, overall, he's been absolutely terrific.

hehehe - and in other news... looks like it will be until next year for Wall. I wonder how he stays in shape for an entire year?

https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/264097/John-Wall-Trade-Unlikely-To-Materialize-Until-Next-Offseason
Ruzious
Forum Mod
Forum Mod
Posts: 45,859
And1: 10,100
Joined: Jul 17, 2001
       

Re: 2021 Offseason & Offseason Grades 

Post#1439 » by Ruzious » Thu Sep 23, 2021 10:30 pm

Kev was the absolute best, but one thing he does that's always been a head-scratcher for me... his statistical doppleganger machine comes up with the strangest comps: https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nba/montrezl-harrell-throwback-big-man/ar-AAOJQtv?li=BBnbfcL

I know he's kicking himself for including Kupchak twice - as he's a stickler for editing out mistakes.
"A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools." - Douglas Adams
dobrojim
RealGM
Posts: 14,200
And1: 2,095
Joined: Sep 16, 2004

Re: 2021 Offseason & Offseason Grades 

Post#1440 » by dobrojim » Yesterday 4:57 pm

Kupchak's absence from the 79 team due to injury was a definite factor in going from a 7 game win in 78
to an 0-4 loss in the Finals (79). A fun player to watch. All hustle.
A lot of what we call 'thought' is just mental activity

Return to Washington Wizards