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Official Trade Thread - Part XLI

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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLI 

Post#101 » by prime1time » Tue Jun 8, 2021 2:25 pm

Ruzious wrote:
prime1time wrote:Was about to post about Porzingis. It's a no brainer tbh. He'd be a perfect fit at center for us. Throw out how he did with Dallas. Dallas is Doncic's team.

If you throw out his Dallas years, all you have are his Knicks years - when he played - where he was an inefficient scorer, non-rebounder, and soft defender.

Well, he was also - 21 year old all-star who was just oosing with potential. I’d take that player on this team 10 times out of 10. Always funny to me how some fans have such high standards for the roster. You take that version of Porzingis and you develop him.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLI 

Post#102 » by Rafael122 » Tue Jun 8, 2021 2:55 pm

Wizards need to add talent right?

Bertans/Bryant/Hutchinson make enough that you can get a player making $25 million+. Look at the guys making that, and tell me, realistically, who could we get from that group in a trade that doesn't include Deni or Rui?

Demar DeRozan isn't coming here for the MLE. If that were the case, he'd just go to the Lakers or Clippers for that amount.

I've seen KAT's name bandied about, but again, you're probably trading both Rui and Deni in that deal.

I'm not saying KP will take us to a championship, but he's 25 years old, and can still improve. I think his salary is causing folks to underrate him a bit. He's not the end all be all, but IDK...I'd consider it and it's not like we're giving up a core piece to get him. Or picks for that matter.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLI 

Post#103 » by doclinkin » Tue Jun 8, 2021 2:59 pm

I will say this. Not in regard to any of us in particular, but in general reading the Trade thread I realize I'm pretty happy with Tommy as our decision-maker on personnel. He has pulled a few players who were surprisingly productive for us, gotten them at a decent discount. Has not really mortgaged our future. Whatever my quibbles on what I wish had happened, or what I imagine in retrospect I would have done, he has been pretty solid. Maybe not masterful or wildly creative, but not really many major mistakes. And the moves he has done have paid off.

(Maybe a mistake?: Bertans contract instead of a swap for a round 1 pick? But we saw how well we played when Bertans was healthy and playing well. His play is a difference maker, we just need a reliable substitute or approximation of his offense. With an upgrade in D).

This offseason is key of course, with so many expiring contracts of players who were significant for us. And he has little to work with (one pick, mid first round, playing the game of 'upside pick vs solid role-player'). Few coveted players under contract. I will be curious to see if he can surprise me again. Garrison Mathews. A productive year of Hook Lopez. Raul Neto's scrappy play. To say nothing of Gafford with the midseason steal. I like his moves in the margins and to upgrade our core.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLI 

Post#104 » by prime1time » Tue Jun 8, 2021 3:00 pm

Rafael122 wrote:Wizards need to add talent right?

Bertans/Bryant/Hutchinson make enough that you can get a player making $25 million+. Look at the guys making that, and tell me, realistically, who could we get from that group in a trade that doesn't include Deni or Rui?

Demar DeRozan isn't coming here for the MLE. If that were the case, he'd just go to the Lakers or Clippers for that amount.

I've seen KAT's name bandied about, but again, you're probably trading both Rui and Deni in that deal.

I'm not saying KP will take us to a championship, but he's 25 years old, and can still improve. I think his salary is causing folks to underrate him a bit. He's not the end all be all, but IDK...I'd consider it and it's not like we're giving up a core piece to get him. Or picks for that matter.

I’ll consider it, but I’m worried that all of his injuries have robbed him of his lateral quickness. Watch the video I posted, he was a disaster defensively. Offensively l, the only thing he can do is shoot. No back to the basket game, and with more than two dribbles he’s been a disaster. I take a flyer on Markannen before Porzingis.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLI 

Post#105 » by Ruzious » Tue Jun 8, 2021 3:11 pm

Rafael122 wrote:Wizards need to add talent right?

Bertans/Bryant/Hutchinson make enough that you can get a player making $25 million+. Look at the guys making that, and tell me, realistically, who could we get from that group in a trade that doesn't include Deni or Rui?

Demar DeRozan isn't coming here for the MLE. If that were the case, he'd just go to the Lakers or Clippers for that amount.

I've seen KAT's name bandied about, but again, you're probably trading both Rui and Deni in that deal.

I'm not saying KP will take us to a championship, but he's 25 years old, and can still improve. I think his salary is causing folks to underrate him a bit. He's not the end all be all, but IDK...I'd consider it and it's not like we're giving up a core piece to get him. Or picks for that matter.

I'd be for it if I thought he could play PF effectively. I don't think he can. I think we're fine at center. Now, if you think he can play effectively with Gafford, maybe that's something to discuss. Personally, I don't see it, but I could be wrong.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLI 

Post#106 » by Ruzious » Tue Jun 8, 2021 3:15 pm

prime1time wrote:
Ruzious wrote:
prime1time wrote:Was about to post about Porzingis. It's a no brainer tbh. He'd be a perfect fit at center for us. Throw out how he did with Dallas. Dallas is Doncic's team.

If you throw out his Dallas years, all you have are his Knicks years - when he played - where he was an inefficient scorer, non-rebounder, and soft defender.

Well, he was also - 21 year old all-star who was just oosing with potential. I’d take that player on this team 10 times out of 10. Always funny to me how some fans have such high standards for the roster. You take that version of Porzingis and you develop him.

Lol, didn't you just get through warning against trading for him?
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLI 

Post#107 » by WallToWall » Tue Jun 8, 2021 3:20 pm

No to Porzingis. He is not the same player he was pre-injury. If you saw any part of the Dallas games, you could see he was slow on D, with little lateral movement. He is not the #1 or #2 option on any team hoping to make it to the championship, and I don’t think he is ready to accept that. His contract is crazy bad. We already have Westbrook, who is a much better player, with a crazy contract, and we can’t have another one of those. If we are going to swing for the fences, this isn’t it.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLI 

Post#108 » by payitforward » Tue Jun 8, 2021 4:21 pm

Ruzious wrote:
Rafael122 wrote:I think Bryant is going to get paid on his next contract. It may not be $16 million a year, but he's going to get at least $10 million, if not more.

It's possible, but he'd probably have to play better than Porzingis has ever played in order to get a contract like that.

Well that's not much of a hurdle! He already plays much better than Porzingis.

Does anyone ever look at what these guys actually do on the floor? Is it all about names & where a guy was picked?

Porzingis is a physical unicorn. That got him drafted very high. But, he has been quite a bad player, & he shows no real signs of becoming a particularly good one.

He scores a lot of points, is that why people might think he's good? But... he only scores a lot of points, because he takes a lot of shots. Period.

Feel free to point to something else he does particularly well -- good luck!
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLI 

Post#109 » by Shoe » Tue Jun 8, 2021 4:22 pm

What about - - -
Bertans
Bryant
Hutchison

For

Bledsoe
Adams
+ picks

Wizards give shooting to Zion while they kill their own cap and floor spacing. I'll take the 10th pick as compensation :evil:
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLI 

Post#110 » by DCZards » Tue Jun 8, 2021 4:29 pm

payitforward wrote:Well that's not much of a hurdle! He already plays much better than Porzingis.

Does anyone ever look at what these guys actually do on the floor? Is it all about names & where a guy was picked?

Porzingis is a physical unicorn. That got him drafted very high. But, he has been quite a bad player, & he shows no real signs of becoming a particularly good one.

He scores a lot of points, is that why people might think he's good? But... he only scores a lot of points, because he takes a lot of shots. Period.

Feel free to point to something else he does particularly well -- good luck!

I'm not a fan of KP and I'm certainly not advocating that the Zards trade for him.

But when healthy he's been a very good shotblocker and rebounder...much better than Bryant.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLI 

Post#111 » by payitforward » Tue Jun 8, 2021 4:34 pm

Ruzious wrote:
prime1time wrote:Was about to post about Porzingis. It's a no brainer tbh. He'd be a perfect fit at center for us. Throw out how he did with Dallas. Dallas is Doncic's team.

If you throw out his Dallas years, all you have are his Knicks years - when he played - where he was an inefficient scorer, non-rebounder, and soft defender.

It's true that his Dallas years have been a bit better than those he spent with the Knicks. But, they haven't actually been good.

In fact, KP just had his best year ever -- & it wasn't anywhere near "good."
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLI 

Post#112 » by Ruzious » Tue Jun 8, 2021 4:45 pm

payitforward wrote:
Ruzious wrote:
Rafael122 wrote:I think Bryant is going to get paid on his next contract. It may not be $16 million a year, but he's going to get at least $10 million, if not more.

It's possible, but he'd probably have to play better than Porzingis has ever played in order to get a contract like that.

Well that's not much of a hurdle! He already plays much better than Porzingis.

Does anyone ever look at what these guys actually do on the floor? Is it all about names & where a guy was picked?

Porzingis is a physical unicorn. That got him drafted very high. But, he has been quite a bad player, & he shows no real signs of becoming a particularly good one.

He scores a lot of points, is that why people might think he's good? But... he only scores a lot of points, because he takes a lot of shots. Period.

Feel free to point to something else he does particularly well -- good luck!

I don't really disagree except for - games played and minutes played per game (though I think you go way overboard in not taking scoring into proper account - and that's not exactly something new - scoring is kind of important imho). Bryant's averaged 25 games a season in his career and probably not much over 20 minutes a game. Porz isn't even particularly durable, but he's been a lot more durable than Bryant. If Bryant continues at that rate, I doubt he'll accomplish any more than Porz. If he can't stay healthy and play a lot of minutes, why would he get paid? Good thing for him he's not a construction worker or a pro wrassler with no guaranteed money - though he might be entertaining in that "sport", come to think of it. If he was a tax accountant, he'd likely injure his accounting hand.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLI 

Post#113 » by payitforward » Tue Jun 8, 2021 5:03 pm

DCZards wrote:
payitforward wrote:Well that's not much of a hurdle! He already plays much better than Porzingis.

Does anyone ever look at what these guys actually do on the floor? Is it all about names & where a guy was picked?

Porzingis is a physical unicorn. That got him drafted very high. But, he has been quite a bad player, & he shows no real signs of becoming a particularly good one.

He scores a lot of points, is that why people might think he's good? But... he only scores a lot of points, because he takes a lot of shots. Period.

Feel free to point to something else he does particularly well -- good luck!

I'm not a fan of KP and I'm certainly not advocating that the Zards trade for him.

But when healthy he's been a very good shotblocker and rebounder.

This year, KP was a bit below average for a C as a rebounder. He was just a trivial sliver above average in blocked shots.

On his career, KP has been a distinctly below average rebounder but above average in blocked shots.

While we're at it, compared to NBA Centers, he's been below average in steals, about average in turnovers, significantly below average in assists, a bit below average in rebounds. & he fouls a little more than average.

In other words, just looking at everything but scoring, he's been a thoroughly bad player.

As a scorer, he has produced 35% more points than an average Center per 40 minutes. That's great, except that it's taken him 42% more possessions than average to do it.

Now... this year has been his best season, which is good -- obviously. But, it's still been way below average.

Overall, by any metric whatsoever, is Porzingis as good a player as Christian Wood? No, he isn't -- not this year, not any year, not on his career. & it ain't close.

&, overall, by any metric whatsoever, is Porzingis as good a player as Thomas Bryant? No, he isn't -- not this year (compared to last year for Bryant, b/c he's injured), not any year, not on his career. & it ain't close.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLI 

Post#114 » by keynote » Tue Jun 8, 2021 5:06 pm

Rafael122 wrote:Wizards need to add talent right?

Bertans/Bryant/Hutchinson make enough that you can get a player making $25 million+. Look at the guys making that, and tell me, realistically, who could we get from that group in a trade that doesn't include Deni or Rui?

Demar DeRozan isn't coming here for the MLE. If that were the case, he'd just go to the Lakers or Clippers for that amount.

I've seen KAT's name bandied about, but again, you're probably trading both Rui and Deni in that deal.

I'm not saying KP will take us to a championship, but he's 25 years old, and can still improve. I think his salary is causing folks to underrate him a bit. He's not the end all be all, but IDK...I'd consider it and it's not like we're giving up a core piece to get him. Or picks for that matter.


+1. This is why Porzingis is worth considering. Low cost (potentially). High upside (if he can get his lateral quicks back, and does enough deadlifts and hip thrusts during the offseason to be able to hold post position vs. a wing by November). But yeah -- high risk, in terms of cap management -- and, arguably, opportunity cost.

So, what's the opportunity cost? What could we *not* pursue if we bring in Porzingis? (assuming for these discussions that Ted will pay the tax as needed)

- Incremental improvements? Shep has shown some facility with this. Scooping up guys on the margins. Etc. If we acquire Porzingis, we could still do this here and there, and we can still coach up Rui, Deni, and Gafford to take another step forward. If Ted is feeling froggy, we could still use the MLE, and take a shot at signing the next MIP. But, if our only offseason plan is incremental development, we probably eke out the 6th seed net year. That doesn't feel like enough to keep Beal long term. If all we can pull off is incremental improvement -- without a larger swing -- we'd be better off blowing it up.

- Cash in all the chips? Trading for Porzingis might let us keep our core. But, we probably can't also trade one or more of Rui/Deni/Gafford + salary + picks/swaps to get a legit 3rd star, since we won't have any more salary balast to throw in. Now, we could cash in the chips *instead* of bringing in a Porzingis type. But, unless you can convince a legit star to go rogue (see the "woo" thread), we'd likely have to overpay to make it happen -- and we'd need a plan to refill the rotation spots with solid players. I don't think we're one trade away for being an attractive destination for ring-hunting vets willing to take the minimum (although I'd be happy if Shep proved me wrong).
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLI 

Post#115 » by prime1time » Tue Jun 8, 2021 5:09 pm

Ruzious wrote:
prime1time wrote:
Ruzious wrote:If you throw out his Dallas years, all you have are his Knicks years - when he played - where he was an inefficient scorer, non-rebounder, and soft defender.

Well, he was also - 21 year old all-star who was just oosing with potential. I’d take that player on this team 10 times out of 10. Always funny to me how some fans have such high standards for the roster. You take that version of Porzingis and you develop him.

Lol, didn't you just get through warning against trading for him?

Did you read my post? I said the current version of Porzingis. Your argument has to do with Porzingis pre-injury. Two completely different players. That Porzingis has good lateral quickness, good protect the rim and was only 21 years old. Your criticism attacked the Knicks Porzingis. But yes, I did research after I made my initial post. I am not for acquiring the current version of Porzingis.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLI 

Post#116 » by gambitx777 » Tue Jun 8, 2021 5:55 pm

I have 0 interest in KP, I would rather go looking into wood.

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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLI 

Post#117 » by payitforward » Tue Jun 8, 2021 6:01 pm

Ruzious wrote:...I think you go way overboard in not taking scoring into proper account - and that's not exactly something new - scoring is kind of important imho)....

Of course I take scoring into proper account! In the end only two things win basketball games:
1) number of chances you have to score (i.e. possessions) &
2) how good you are at turning those possessions into points (i.e. scoring efficiency).

IOW, it's all about scoring, & absolutely everything in a basketball that affects 1 of those two things is important, while nothing else is. E.g. if "spacing" helps #2 above, then spacing is important.

But, you cannot consider scoring independently of scoring efficiency. Period. If I score a lot of points b/c I take a lot of shots, then my scoring is not helping "win basketball games."

&, OTOH, if something I do gets my team a possession, that too helps us score more points. A player who is good at steals is helping his team's scoring.

IOW, every single stat is based on its effect on the score of the game. It's all about scoring.

Ruzious wrote:...Bryant's averaged 25 games a season in his career and probably not much over 20 minutes a game. Porz isn't even particularly durable, but he's been a lot more durable than Bryant. If Bryant ...can't stay healthy and play a lot of minutes, why would he get paid?

This is on the money, as it were!

Bryant's ability to stay healthy (his "differential ability" -- i.e. compared to other players) will affect what he gets offered in his next contract. Doesn't matter how good you are if you're in street clothes!

Bryant played 72 games for us in 2018-19. He played in 46 of the 72 pre-bubble games last year. With his 10 games this year, that's 128 of 226 regular season games.

He averaged 25 minutes a game last year & 27 this year. His first year with us (effectively his rookie year, given that he only played 72 minutes for the Lakers) he averaged 21 minutes a game.

Then again, in those same 3 seasons, Porzingis has played 3141 minutes to Bryant's 2914, so that's a concern for both guys. Maybe more so for the guy making $29m...? :)
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLI 

Post#118 » by FAH1223 » Tue Jun 8, 2021 6:03 pm

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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLI 

Post#119 » by Ruzious » Tue Jun 8, 2021 6:20 pm

payitforward wrote:
Ruzious wrote:...I think you go way overboard in not taking scoring into proper account - and that's not exactly something new - scoring is kind of important imho)....

Of course I take scoring into proper account! In the end only two things win basketball games:
1) number of chances you have to score (i.e. possessions) &
2) how good you are at turning those possessions into points (i.e. scoring efficiency).

IOW, it's all about scoring, & absolutely everything in a basketball that affects 1 of those two things is important, while nothing else is. E.g. if "spacing" helps #2 above, then spacing is important.

But, you cannot consider scoring independently of scoring efficiency. Period. If I score a lot of points b/c I take a lot of shots, then my scoring is not helping "win basketball games."

&, OTOH, if something I do gets my team a possession, that too helps us score more points. A player who is good at steals is helping his team's scoring.

IOW, every single stat is based on its effect on the score of the game. It's all about scoring.

Ruzious wrote:...Bryant's averaged 25 games a season in his career and probably not much over 20 minutes a game. Porz isn't even particularly durable, but he's been a lot more durable than Bryant. If Bryant ...can't stay healthy and play a lot of minutes, why would he get paid?

This is on the money, as it were!

Bryant's ability to stay healthy (his "differential ability" -- i.e. compared to other players) will affect what he gets offered in his next contract. Doesn't matter how good you are if you're in street clothes!

Bryant played 72 games for us in 2018-19. He played in 46 of the 72 pre-bubble games last year. With his 10 games this year, that's 128 of 226 regular season games.

He averaged 25 minutes a game last year & 27 this year. His first year with us (effectively his rookie year, given that he only played 72 minutes for the Lakers) he averaged 21 minutes a game.

Then again, in those same 3 seasons, Porzingis has played 3141 minutes to Bryant's 2914, so that's a concern for both guys. Maybe more so for the guy making $29m...? :)

Lol, what about minutes for the last 2 years. It's not close. Not to mention, Porz' lowest minutes per game in a season was 28.4 as a rookie, and Bryant's highest was 27.1 that lasted only 10 games. Like I said, Porz has not proven to be durable, and even he's been far more durable than Bryant.

I'm not even for trading for Porzingis, anyway, so... we're on the same side here.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLI 

Post#120 » by TGW » Tue Jun 8, 2021 6:22 pm

FAH1223 wrote:
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That's just silly. Rui is a decent player, but untouchable? C'mon. Unless they're just trying to push up his trade value.
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