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Official Trade Thread - Part XLI

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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLI 

Post#1881 » by Ruzious » Wed Sep 1, 2021 1:34 am

dckingsfan wrote:
Ruzious wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:If we wanted to be in the mix we could be given the sheer depth we have - well, I believe that even if it isn't true. I would love for Simmons to be our starting PF. But yes, I think that Philly would like a replacement starting PG. In this case, waiting wasn't the right move.

I'd like to have him - though I'm not sure what position I'd want him at. His agent, Rich Paul, must be driving 76ers fans nuts:
Read on Twitter

Interesting... thoughts on Tyrese Maxey?

I like Maxey a lot, but... he's not a good jump shooter, so I'm thinking whoever trades for Simmons is not likely going to want to trade for Maxey.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLI 

Post#1882 » by Ruzious » Wed Sep 1, 2021 1:39 am

payitforward wrote:
Dat2U wrote:
Ruzious wrote:Might as well toss in another Simmons trade idea as he continues to dig his heels in and reportedly refuses to report to Philly... this would have to wait till December 15th... Simmons for (drumroll) Dinwiddie and Kuzma. Philly gets a starting quality scoring PG that they lack that can play with Maxey or Curry and a second forward who can score - when Harris isn't in there, they really lack perimeter scorers with any size. Embiid will have to do too much. Maybe we could throw in either Bryant or Harrell if they give us Petrusev or Reed.

I dunno what would entice Philly but Morey is getting put in a no win situation and teams are just waiting to pounce. I don't think Minnesota, Cleveland or Sacramento is offering anything Philly wants. Philly fans seem in denial but an Edwards, Fox or even Kuminga/Moody package seems farfetched. Seems more like Malik Beasley or Buddy Hield is what's being offered with a pick & filler.

First off, if he doesn't report, he doesn't get paid. At some point, he & his agent & other financial people will have a little conversation about that. Then, suddenly, the public statements will change tone, etc.....

Secondly, you know there's a Players' Association? Well, owners are a group too, & they don't like being screwed with. So, no, there's going to be no Beasley/Hield for Simmons deal, because the owners aren't going to like the precedent or the fact that they could be the next to get treated this way.

Thirdly, until he gets back in the corral with the rest of the horses, I don't want him either. Don't get me wrong; he's a great player without a doubt. But we don't need any day-time TV dramas.

Right... just like it happened with Harden and Houston last year. Hmm, can you refresh my memory as to how that turned out?
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLI 

Post#1883 » by gambitx777 » Wed Sep 1, 2021 5:58 am

I want no parts of Simmons , we have an interesting team. I think Simmons is fool's gold and I would not Trade Spencer or Kuz for him at this point. I just wouldn't ! He's tanked his value so far it's silly. I see Ben working out as a play making center but I would maybe trade bertans and either Bryant or Trez and that's it I would be hesitant to add picks at this point.

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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLI 

Post#1884 » by Rafael122 » Wed Sep 1, 2021 12:57 pm

gambitx777 wrote:I want no parts of Simmons , we have an interesting team. I think Simmons is fool's gold and I would not Trade Spencer or Kuz for him at this point. I just wouldn't ! He's tanked his value so far it's silly. I see Ben working out as a play making center but I would maybe trade bertans and either Bryant or Trez and that's it I would be hesitant to add picks at this point.

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Sixers signed Drummond so I'm not sure if they're willing to take on Harrell's $9 million salary or Bryant coming off an injury. I think the prime candidates to be traded are Bertans and Kuzma. I think in lieu of a pick or picks, Wiz probably include one of Rui/Deni. That's as far as I would go.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLI 

Post#1885 » by payitforward » Wed Sep 1, 2021 1:42 pm

Ruzious wrote:
payitforward wrote:
Dat2U wrote:I dunno what would entice Philly but Morey is getting put in a no win situation and teams are just waiting to pounce. I don't think Minnesota, Cleveland or Sacramento is offering anything Philly wants. Philly fans seem in denial but an Edwards, Fox or even Kuminga/Moody package seems farfetched. Seems more like Malik Beasley or Buddy Hield is what's being offered with a pick & filler.

First off, if he doesn't report, he doesn't get paid. At some point, he & his agent & other financial people will have a little conversation about that. Then, suddenly, the public statements will change tone, etc.....

Secondly, you know there's a Players' Association? Well, owners are a group too, & they don't like being screwed with. So, no, there's going to be no Beasley/Hield for Simmons deal, because the owners aren't going to like the precedent or the fact that they could be the next to get treated this way.

Thirdly, until he gets back in the corral with the rest of the horses, I don't want him either. Don't get me wrong; he's a great player without a doubt. But we don't need any day-time TV dramas.

Right... just like it happened with Harden and Houston last year. Hmm, can you refresh my memory as to how that turned out?

It's a fair point, Ruz. But, even if Houston could have gotten more in current player value than they did, they got a bunch of picks -- their rebuild should move very fast. But, not your point....
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLI 

Post#1886 » by dckingsfan » Wed Sep 1, 2021 1:47 pm

payitforward wrote:
Ruzious wrote:Right... just like it happened with Harden and Houston last year. Hmm, can you refresh my memory as to how that turned out?

It's a fair point, Ruz. But, even if Houston could have gotten more in current player value than they did, they got a bunch of picks -- their rebuild should move very fast. But, not your point....

The points are - will he be able to force a trade? Will the Sixers get the asset(s) they want?

And the one that is most important to me - can the Wizards acquire him without giving up the farm?
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLI 

Post#1887 » by Ruzious » Wed Sep 1, 2021 2:28 pm

Rafael122 wrote:
gambitx777 wrote:I want no parts of Simmons , we have an interesting team. I think Simmons is fool's gold and I would not Trade Spencer or Kuz for him at this point. I just wouldn't ! He's tanked his value so far it's silly. I see Ben working out as a play making center but I would maybe trade bertans and either Bryant or Trez and that's it I would be hesitant to add picks at this point.

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Sixers signed Drummond so I'm not sure if they're willing to take on Harrell's $9 million salary or Bryant coming off an injury. I think the prime candidates to be traded are Bertans and Kuzma. I think in lieu of a pick or picks, Wiz probably include one of Rui/Deni. That's as far as I would go.

Drummond signing a 1 year 2.4 mil contract to be a backup at what should be his prime (at 28) really shows how much of a dinosaur he's perceived to be.

I am all for taking advantage of the situation if it means getting Simmons for a bargain price.

Also, it makes sense to get him because we should be trying to consolidate assets in order to improve our top level talent and create at least the opportunity for players like Avdija and Kispert to get playing time. We should be actively looking to make a 2 or 3 for 1 trade.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLI 

Post#1888 » by WallToWall » Wed Sep 1, 2021 3:15 pm

With regards to Simmons…
I am not sure that he puts in the work to improve himself. Year over year, his stats are the same. No J. I don’t think he will improve any more. What you see is what you get. There are a dozen or so flashes to make you think otherwise, but he certainly hasn’t put it together. I get the “buy low” part of a trade. But there is nothing here to tell me that he will amount to more than what he is now. It is possible that once he signs his next big contract, he may have no incentive to improve at all.

Is this worth 3625 first round picks and the farm? I think not.

Yes, he is a unicorn. He reminds me of Westbrook in some ways, who I also consider a bit of a unicorn, in that he rebounds like a C and gets to the rim like a PG like no other before him. Except, Westbrook puts in the time, and effort, has the desire to improve, and is a crazy competitor. He is worth the 4636 draft picks and the farm when he was in his prime.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLI 

Post#1889 » by Ruzious » Wed Sep 1, 2021 5:32 pm

WallToWall wrote:With regards to Simmons…
I am not sure that he puts in the work to improve himself. Year over year, his stats are the same. No J. I don’t think he will improve any more. What you see is what you get. There are a dozen or so flashes to make you think otherwise, but he certainly hasn’t put it together. I get the “buy low” part of a trade. But there is nothing here to tell me that he will amount to more than what he is now. It is possible that once he signs his next big contract, he may have no incentive to improve at all.

Is this worth 3625 first round picks and the farm? I think not.

Yes, he is a unicorn. He reminds me of Westbrook in some ways, who I also consider a bit of a unicorn, in that he rebounds like a C and gets to the rim like a PG like no other before him. Except, Westbrook puts in the time, and effort, has the desire to improve, and is a crazy competitor. He is worth the 4636 draft picks and the farm when he was in his prime.

Unlike Westbrook, he's a great defender - perhaps the only one legitimately able to defend 1 through 5 at a high level. Considering that most agree that the most important part of defense is effort, I don't get the thought process used in the assumption that Simmons doesn't work hard.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLI 

Post#1890 » by keynote » Wed Sep 1, 2021 9:41 pm

Ruzious wrote:
WallToWall wrote:With regards to Simmons…
I am not sure that he puts in the work to improve himself. Year over year, his stats are the same. No J. I don’t think he will improve any more. What you see is what you get. There are a dozen or so flashes to make you think otherwise, but he certainly hasn’t put it together. I get the “buy low” part of a trade. But there is nothing here to tell me that he will amount to more than what he is now. It is possible that once he signs his next big contract, he may have no incentive to improve at all.

Is this worth 3625 first round picks and the farm? I think not.

Yes, he is a unicorn. He reminds me of Westbrook in some ways, who I also consider a bit of a unicorn, in that he rebounds like a C and gets to the rim like a PG like no other before him. Except, Westbrook puts in the time, and effort, has the desire to improve, and is a crazy competitor. He is worth the 4636 draft picks and the farm when he was in his prime.

Unlike Westbrook, he's a great defender - perhaps the only one legitimately able to defend 1 through 5 at a high level. Considering that most agree that the most important part of defense is effort, I don't get the thought process used in the assumption that Simmons doesn't work hard.


I think there's a difference between "working hard" in games, i.e., motor, and "working hard" at the craft, i.e., discipline. Simmons plays hard in games -- hard enough to be a dominant defender, anyway. But it's unclear how hard he works off the court. Who knows for certain? Maybe he works his tail off every off-season, but has a mental block. Or maybe there's a physiological reason, e.g., whatever athletic gift Steph has -- preternatural coordination, depth perception, and body control -- maybe Simmons skews in the other direction. Or, maybe he just likes to lift weights and date starlets, and doesn't put in the time, perennial IG videos notwithstanding.

I also want to note that it takes a *long* time for a non-shooting ball handler to develop a shot. Jason Kidd didn't start shooting 3s reliably with volume (i.e., 5+ FGAs/game) until he was 31. Rondo was 28 when he finally logged a season shooting >35% from 3, and 32 when he finally took more than 3 FGAs/game from distance.

Of course, FTs are another adventure entirely (here's some data). But, Karl Malone, Blake Griffin, and Chris Webber all improved from dreadful to solid at the stripe. Blake has been in the .700s since he was 23, and Malone jumped up .100 points at age 24, but Webber didn't take the leap into respectability at the line until 26.

Simmons is 25. It's possible that WYSIWYG. But we've at least seen a few examples of talented ball-handlers who developed a reasonably reliable perimeter jumper late in their career, and a few examples of bigs who improved a bit at shooting FTs.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLI 

Post#1891 » by Ruzious » Wed Sep 1, 2021 9:47 pm

keynote wrote:
Ruzious wrote:
WallToWall wrote:With regards to Simmons…
I am not sure that he puts in the work to improve himself. Year over year, his stats are the same. No J. I don’t think he will improve any more. What you see is what you get. There are a dozen or so flashes to make you think otherwise, but he certainly hasn’t put it together. I get the “buy low” part of a trade. But there is nothing here to tell me that he will amount to more than what he is now. It is possible that once he signs his next big contract, he may have no incentive to improve at all.

Is this worth 3625 first round picks and the farm? I think not.

Yes, he is a unicorn. He reminds me of Westbrook in some ways, who I also consider a bit of a unicorn, in that he rebounds like a C and gets to the rim like a PG like no other before him. Except, Westbrook puts in the time, and effort, has the desire to improve, and is a crazy competitor. He is worth the 4636 draft picks and the farm when he was in his prime.

Unlike Westbrook, he's a great defender - perhaps the only one legitimately able to defend 1 through 5 at a high level. Considering that most agree that the most important part of defense is effort, I don't get the thought process used in the assumption that Simmons doesn't work hard.


I think there's a difference between "working hard" in games, i.e., motor, and "working hard" at the craft, i.e., discipline. Simmons plays hard in games -- hard enough to be a dominant defender, anyway. But it's unclear how hard he works off the court. Who knows for certain? Maybe he works his tail off every off-season, but has a mental block. Or maybe there's a physiological reason, e.g., whatever athletic gift Steph has -- preternatural coordination, depth perception, and body control -- maybe Simmons skews in the other direction. Or, maybe he just likes to lift weights and date starlets, and doesn't put in the time, perennial IG videos notwithstanding.

I think it's obvious that it takes more than working hard in games to become a great defender. Have you read anything specific from someone who actually knows - that he doesn't work hard? Players like ex-Wizards Darvin Ham and Michael Ruffin were known to be extremely hard-working players, and they never learned to shoot. There are articles out there saying he's hired a shooting coach this offseason and done it in at least one previous year. Maybe it'll pay off; maybe it won't, but I haven't seen any reason to assume he hasn't put the work in.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLI 

Post#1892 » by WallToWall » Thu Sep 2, 2021 1:15 am

Ruzious wrote:
keynote wrote:
Ruzious wrote:Unlike Westbrook, he's a great defender - perhaps the only one legitimately able to defend 1 through 5 at a high level. Considering that most agree that the most important part of defense is effort, I don't get the thought process used in the assumption that Simmons doesn't work hard.


I think there's a difference between "working hard" in games, i.e., motor, and "working hard" at the craft, i.e., discipline. Simmons plays hard in games -- hard enough to be a dominant defender, anyway. But it's unclear how hard he works off the court. Who knows for certain? Maybe he works his tail off every off-season, but has a mental block. Or maybe there's a physiological reason, e.g., whatever athletic gift Steph has -- preternatural coordination, depth perception, and body control -- maybe Simmons skews in the other direction. Or, maybe he just likes to lift weights and date starlets, and doesn't put in the time, perennial IG videos notwithstanding.

I think it's obvious that it takes more than working hard in games to become a great defender. Have you read anything specific from someone who actually knows - that he doesn't work hard? Players like ex-Wizards Darvin Ham and Michael Ruffin were known to be extremely hard-working players, and they never learned to shoot. There are articles out there saying he's hired a shooting coach this offseason and done it in at least one previous year. Maybe it'll pay off; maybe it won't, but I haven't seen any reason to assume he hasn't put the work in.

Regarding Simmons work ethic…a particular pointed article on Yahoo Sports back on March 2016 by NBA talent evaluator Jonathon Givony.
A January 2021 article by The Ringer’s Ryen Russillo adds to the message.
A more recent Stephen A Smith set of statements on topic.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLI 

Post#1893 » by Ruzious » Thu Sep 2, 2021 1:39 am

WallToWall wrote:
Ruzious wrote:
keynote wrote:
I think there's a difference between "working hard" in games, i.e., motor, and "working hard" at the craft, i.e., discipline. Simmons plays hard in games -- hard enough to be a dominant defender, anyway. But it's unclear how hard he works off the court. Who knows for certain? Maybe he works his tail off every off-season, but has a mental block. Or maybe there's a physiological reason, e.g., whatever athletic gift Steph has -- preternatural coordination, depth perception, and body control -- maybe Simmons skews in the other direction. Or, maybe he just likes to lift weights and date starlets, and doesn't put in the time, perennial IG videos notwithstanding.

I think it's obvious that it takes more than working hard in games to become a great defender. Have you read anything specific from someone who actually knows - that he doesn't work hard? Players like ex-Wizards Darvin Ham and Michael Ruffin were known to be extremely hard-working players, and they never learned to shoot. There are articles out there saying he's hired a shooting coach this offseason and done it in at least one previous year. Maybe it'll pay off; maybe it won't, but I haven't seen any reason to assume he hasn't put the work in.

Regarding Simmons work ethic…a particular pointed article on Yahoo Sports back on March 2016 by NBA talent evaluator Jonathon Givony.
A January 2021 article by The Ringer’s Ryen Russillo adds to the message.
A more recent Stephen A Smith set of statements on topic.
Perhaps these people know more than us fans. Perhaps not. But I think they do know something.

If no links, then what exactly did they say?
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLI 

Post#1894 » by payitforward » Thu Sep 2, 2021 2:17 am

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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLI 

Post#1895 » by DCZards » Thu Sep 2, 2021 3:30 am

payitforward wrote:https://sports.yahoo.com/news/why-ben-simmons-isn-t-the-top-prospect-in-the-2016-nba-draft-190023711.html

Very interesting article. Seems like many of the same questions/concerns about Simmons in 2021 existed in 2016.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLI 

Post#1896 » by Ruzious » Thu Sep 2, 2021 5:27 am

DCZards wrote:
payitforward wrote:https://sports.yahoo.com/news/why-ben-simmons-isn-t-the-top-prospect-in-the-2016-nba-draft-190023711.html

Very interesting article. Seems like many of the same questions/concerns about Simmons in 2021 existed in 2016.

Like this?:

Simmons’ porous defense is masked by his gaudy steal and block numbers. But when watching him closely, it’s clear that no opposing player or coach fears attacking him. As Simmons rarely makes the effort to close out on shooters, put a body on opposing big men, or offer much beyond gambling wildly swiping for steals, his lack of intensity is amplified. He has wonderful anticipation skills as a rebounder and will wow you with his instincts in passing lanes. But overall, Simmons hasn’t shown the length, toughness and inclination to emerge as an asset on the defensive end.

Simmons’ short wingspan (measured 6-foot-11 at the Nike Hoop Summit in April and the Nike Skills Academy in June) won’t help him play power forward on an NBA lottery team. To make up for his lack of length, he’ll have to display a much higher activity level than what he’s shown in college.


That's... a pretty bad evaluation. One of the reasons he was picked first was his defense.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLI 

Post#1897 » by DCZards » Thu Sep 2, 2021 12:11 pm

Ruzious wrote:
DCZards wrote:
payitforward wrote:https://sports.yahoo.com/news/why-ben-simmons-isn-t-the-top-prospect-in-the-2016-nba-draft-190023711.html

Very interesting article. Seems like many of the same questions/concerns about Simmons in 2021 existed in 2016.

Like this?:

Simmons’ porous defense is masked by his gaudy steal and block numbers. But when watching him closely, it’s clear that no opposing player or coach fears attacking him. As Simmons rarely makes the effort to close out on shooters, put a body on opposing big men, or offer much beyond gambling wildly swiping for steals, his lack of intensity is amplified. He has wonderful anticipation skills as a rebounder and will wow you with his instincts in passing lanes. But overall, Simmons hasn’t shown the length, toughness and inclination to emerge as an asset on the defensive end.

Simmons’ short wingspan (measured 6-foot-11 at the Nike Hoop Summit in April and the Nike Skills Academy in June) won’t help him play power forward on an NBA lottery team. To make up for his lack of length, he’ll have to display a much higher activity level than what he’s shown in college.


That's... a pretty bad evaluation. One of the reasons he was picked first was his defense.

Clearly, the article/evaluation is not completely accurate. I didn't say that it was. But a lot of it is on target, imo.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLI 

Post#1898 » by payitforward » Thu Sep 2, 2021 1:47 pm

Simmons is a tremendous player. & has been from the get-go. Most of what's written about him is nonsense.

Let's start with the idea that he's a "problem" on offense, b/c he "can't shoot." BS.

The truth is, Simmons produces about the same number of points per 40 minutes as an average NBA point guard, but he produces them at well above average efficiency. He uses fewer possessions to score those points, IOW, meaning that there are more possessions for other Sixers to turn into points. In short, Ben Simmons is a substantially better than average scorer for an NBA point guard.

Of course there's more to offense than individual scoring numbers & efficiency. Simmons also gets more than 2.5 times the offensive rebounds of an average PG -- giving his team more chances to score. &, he also gets 30% more assists than average for an NBA point guard.

As a rookie, Ben Simmons was easily the 3d best PG in the game, behind CP & Steph. The following 2 years he was even better. Last year was an off year for Simmons. Once again a couple of guys posted better numbers than he did. Then again... did they have the defensive impact he had?

I said I didn't want Simmons here, & I don't. But, it's not because of the way he plays. It's the amount of pointless kerfluffle that surrounds him, which I don't find entertaining. He's tremendously productive; he'd make us a lot better. I still don't want him.

Btw, if Philly dumps him, they'll be a worse team this year. Significantly worse.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLI 

Post#1899 » by DCZards » Thu Sep 2, 2021 2:43 pm

payitforward wrote:Simmons is a tremendous player. & has been from the get-go. Most of what's written about him is nonsense.

Let's start with the idea that he's a "problem" on offense, b/c he "can't shoot." BS.

The truth is, Simmons produces about the same number of points per 40 minutes as an average NBA point guard, but he produces them at well above average efficiency. He uses fewer possessions to score those points, IOW, meaning that there are more possessions for other Sixers to turn into points. In short, Ben Simmons is a substantially better than average scorer for an NBA point guard.

Of course there's more to offense than individual scoring numbers & efficiency. Simmons also gets more than 2.5 times the offensive rebounds of an average PG -- giving his team more chances to score. &, he also gets 30% more assists than average for an NBA point guard.

As a rookie, Ben Simmons was easily the 3d best PG in the game, behind CP & Steph. The following 2 years he was even better. Last year was an off year for Simmons. Once again a couple of guys posted better numbers than he did. Then again... did they have the defensive impact he had?

I said I didn't want Simmons here, & I don't. But, it's not because of the way he plays. It's the amount of pointless kerfluffle that surrounds him, which I don't find entertaining. He's tremendously productive; he'd make us a lot better. I still don't want him.

Btw, if Philly dumps him, they'll be a worse team this year. Significantly worse.

Saying that Simmons' piss-poor shooting is a "problem" is not BS. It's true. Yes, Ben is "a substantially better than average scorer for an NBA point guard." But his inability to shoot from outside 3 feet--or make FTs--is a problem. Both things can be true, you know.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XLI 

Post#1900 » by WallToWall » Thu Sep 2, 2021 2:45 pm

I actually want Simmons on the team, in spite of all the negative info I have posted. He brings a dimension we don’t have. He has many positives as has been mentioned in previous posts. I just don’t think he is worth what is being demanded, or what most here want to give. I wouldn’t trade the farm. I wouldn’t trade Rui and Avdija and a bunch of firsts. I would trade one of our forwards, a top 5 protected first round pick, and a second round pick. Perhaps it’s undervaluing him, however, since I don’t have faith in him improving, and I am basing his value on his current production and that said production will drop, that is what I think he is worth. His current production will help our team.

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